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Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by baxtr on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:28PM (#22657271)
Story from a very good friend of mine in Germany, we talk almost every day: There was a suspected case in his kid’s school class, first grader. So they closed the class and tested the other kid. That was 11 days ago. The result came in today (I.e. the other parents were informed today): Positive. There is no way you can stop this virus from spreading if you inform contacts almost 2 weeks later.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by ohlookabird on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:51PM (#22657478)
That's surprising. A family member of mine (mid 20ies) in Germany went on a one-week vacation to the north of Germany (he lives somewhere else in Germany) two weeks ago and one of them wasn't feeling well. So they called the respective office to ask about Covid-19 and were told to stay at there vacation home, no one should go anywhere and someone would come to see and test them. They came early the next day in full hazmat suits testing everyone of them. Also bringing an official order that they have to stay in the house until there are results. Results where available a few hours later and they were told by phone that they are negative and can move freely again. All of this was about two weeks ago. They were generally happy with the response and the speed of everything.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by yokaze on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:33PM (#22657849)
Health is delegated to the States, not a federal matter, so the respond may differ greatly between each of them.

The title is also misleading, as Merkel does not have the power to decide such things. Well, at least not by the letter.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by foepys on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:07PM (#22658149)
It's even worse. Each city and county has its own health department (Gesundheitsamt) that can freely decide on their own guidelines. So you have some departments that test nearly everybody and others that will only test when you call 3 different always busy hotlines with a 40°C fever - which btw isn't even an indicator; you can be infected and just have a mild cold.

Bavaria declared a statewide emergency in part to be able to overrule and have a consistent guideline across all health departments.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by 101404 on Sunday March 22, 2020 @08:45PM (#22660251)
Honestly, Bavaria is the only State that implemented sane rules.

The list of exceptions in NRW is completely crazy.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by sneak on Monday March 23, 2020 @12:22AM (#22661250)
What is the list? Do you have a link?
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by k__ on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:16PM (#22657695)
Friends of mine were on a vacation in Italy too a few weeks ago. They said they were tested right at the border and got their results in under 24h
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by type0 on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:29PM (#22657807)
> That's surprising. A family member of mine (mid 20ies) in Germany went on a one-week vacation to the north of Germany (he lives somewhere else in Germany)

Not every state responds the same and follows the same routines, that's the federal structure for you and differences can be enormous depending on where it is.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by ThePhysicist on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:53PM (#22657487)
Well people hopefully don’t run around if they suspect being infected. Germany is not China, we don’t protect people “by force” e.g. by locking them into their apartments, we currently still trust people to do the right thing. If that’s the right strategy remains to be seen, I think/hope we will be able to stop the growth of (verified) infected people at 50.000 or less, then we won’t overburden the health system. So far it seems to work as the number of new infections seems to go down, we will have to wait until next week to see if it really works though.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by kolinko on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:04PM (#22657583)
Huh? You will reach 50k by Thursday, that is guaranteed!

Germany just began any serious action, and there is a 2 week lag before seeing any sort of impact.

In Poland we had a national lockdown a week ago (which you can see everywhere - empty streets and so on), and so far the numbers don’t reflect it at all.

As for locking people down, yes you can do it, it’s called a quarantine.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by Slartie on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:46PM (#22657960)
Actually the measures in Germany started on Monday, six days ago. That's when all the schools and kindergartens closed down, many stores closed, and those interventions also triggered the first significant changes in people's behavior. Of course effectively it was a gradual change over the week, with more and more stores closing and public spaces emptying, but that Monday six days ago was clearly the major tipping point.

So I would expect to see first effects in new infection numbers over the coming week, with nearly full effect probably visible some time during the following one.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by foepys on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:15PM (#22658229)
Nothing really changed. In my city people still went to parks together and were more or less cuddling with each other in the supermarkets.

Most might have stayed at home but the 5% that didn't are still enough to spread it exponentially.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by Slartie on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:40PM (#22658436)
I've observed significant changes. Can't say much about parks (haven't been in one during the last days, for obvious reasons) but at stores and supermarkets people were trying to keep their distance. My regular supermarket has painted lines on the floor in all places that typically get crowded to help with keeping the 1.5m minimum distance while waiting. Multiple hardware stores have limited the number of customers admitted to the store at once, surplus customers have to wait in line outside (at appropriate distance).

Home office has changed from being the exception to being the norm for a week now at my workplace (an IT company), and I've heard the same from members of my family working elsewhere (in non-IT businesses).

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by catalogia on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:11PM (#22659210)
If you spend 8 hours a night sleeping next to somebody, I don't think a little public cuddling is going to hurt.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by foepys on Monday March 23, 2020 @01:39AM (#22661517)
Well, this got lost in translation. "Cuddling with each other" ("miteinander kuscheln") in this context is a German idiom that means strangers standing really close to each other.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by lakkal on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:51AM (#22664082)
Sounds like "huddling" together might be an English word that conveys the meaning slightly better than "cuddling".
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by ThePhysicist on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:54PM (#22658035)
We will see, I'm hopeful. Good luck to the people in Poland and everywhere else as well of course!
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by saila on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:09PM (#22658165)
Western nations certainly do protect people by force. There are a lot of circumstances where this is true--both protecting people from others as well as from themselves.

In the current circumstances, in a lot of places in the U.S. people are being told to stay home unless they have a specific, approved reason to go out. These are legal orders--not suggestions--that are ultimately upheld by the threat of force.

If things get really bad, we could see the National Guard deployed to enforce curfews and such. And there are other uses of force that are legal in emergency circumstances.

I assume things are similar in Germany and other European countries. The German government could order people to stay home under threat of fines or jail time, even if they haven't done so yet. (I'd be very surprised if this isn't the case.)

Now, I'm not saying the U.S. or Germany is equivalent to China or anything nonsensical like that. I just don't see why people need to keep saying we don't do this or that (e.g., use force) when we clearly do.

I don't have much optimism that people, on the whole, will do the right thing and self-quarantine. Being forced to stay home is probably the only thing that will work.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by mehrdadn on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:36PM (#22658923)
> unless they have a specific, approved reason to go out

Which includes things like walking, running, & hiking with people at 6ft distance. Not sure how serious that is.

> These are legal orders--not suggestions--that are ultimately upheld by the threat of force.

They're also not getting enforced AFAIK, so not everyone's taking it seriously. I don't really have reason to think anybody's getting "forced" in the sense of threat-of-force.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by saila on Sunday March 29, 2020 @10:01PM (#22724549)
Sure, in the U.S. the cops aren't citing people, as far as I've heard anyway, but I do think the potential to get busted does impact a lot of or maybe most people's behavior. A lot of people would do the right thing anyway, but a lot of other people wouldn't without the underlying threat of force.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by fsh on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:47PM (#22659012)
They are absolutely getting enforced by the police.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by mehrdadn on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:52PM (#22659054)
Wait really? I've seen/heard no indication of such, but a fair bit to suggest otherwise. Is this a very recent development? (Any links you can share?)
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by fsh on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:19PM (#22659276)
In Bavaria very similar rules have been in force since Friday night already. Yesterday evening the bavarian police published a statement that they did "thousands of checks" and found "dozens of violations". They say that overall most people are following the rules.

This is the official statement, but some newspapers seem to have more details: https://www.polizei.bayern.de/news/presse/aktuell/index.html...

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by mehrdadn on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:23PM (#22659311)
...you're talking about Germany? The comment I was replying to was "in a lot of places in the U.S. people are being told to stay home unless they have a specific, approved reason to go out".
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by fsh on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:26PM (#22659338)
You are right, I misread your answer. Germany at least seems to be handing out fines.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by Izkata on Sunday March 22, 2020 @07:56PM (#22659963)
A Chicago neighborhood has this:

> The Oak Park order is in effect until April 3, which means local schools will be closed a week longer than the governor has commanded. While the order states that violations can result in a misdemeanor criminal charge, Mayor Anan Abu-Taleb said the goal is not to place people in jail, but rather to use the ordinance to explain the gravity of the COVID-19 pandemic.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:I-uzFm... (google cache due to paywall)

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by mehrdadn on Sunday March 22, 2020 @07:59PM (#22659980)
Yeah, exactly. It's similar in other counties. Instead of enforcing, they're basically telling people they won't enforce. It's actively making people not take it seriously.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by LocalH on Monday March 23, 2020 @02:04PM (#22666809)
Enforcement should be limited to congregations of people. If I am walking outside by myself, and nobody is nearby, then the government should not have the right to tell me I have to go inside. This isn't a disease you get by merely stepping outside of your home.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by saila on Sunday March 29, 2020 @09:54PM (#22724521)
I agree, to a point, and currently there are no such restrictions in the U.S. Hopefully things won't get bad enough that they become necessary--i.e., I hope people are finally starting to take this pandemic seriously.

But I think anyone can agree that if it becomes a question of, say, millions of people dying unless people stay home for awhile that it would be okay for government to exercise that kind of authority.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by megous on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:02PM (#22657562)
Our gov said that about half of the people that were told to self quarantine after returning from Italy just went shopping outside. (determined by credit card usage data)

Card sharing may account for low percentage of that perhaps.

So I'd trust about 50% of people, perhaps. I guess this number rises, as the effects of the crisis are getting more severe and immediate.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by jonfw on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:54PM (#22658032)
Which gov is 'our gov'? Can you cite that report?
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by megous on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:25PM (#22659321)
https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/odhaleni-diky-datum-polov...

Google translate:

> COVID19CZ's IT Initiative has put together anonymised card payment data at merchants. They show that people do not comply with the mandated quarantine, but also that many Czechs are still in risk areas. Article

Those arriving from Italy are going to quarantine for two weeks, the government announced on Friday 6 March. The measure began to apply from Saturday. That person was supposed to report on the phone to his general practitioner, who decided on quarantine on Monday. If returning Czechs have taken this step, it is not clear, but their payment data shows that 46 percent of people quarantined at least once in the first week in the first week.

“We can look at the number of people who paid with a card for one week in Italy and the next one in the Czech Republic. It can be seen from payment transactions that such people often went somewhere in the Czech Republic and bought something, ”says Petr Bednařík from DataSentics, who is part of the initiative of several Czech technology companies and IT enthusiasts COVID19CZ. It focuses on helping to combat a new type of coronavirus pandemic.

His analytical group, consisting of DataSentics and Keboola, works with leading Czech financial institutions. The analysis of Czech payment card activities abroad was based on Dateio data.

[...]

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by lnsru on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:56PM (#22659090)
I can bet, Germany will reach 100k next week. The people don’t care at all. Only minority wears masks and try to keep proper distance. Even today police force was needed to cancel something like party in part in Munich.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by FpUser on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:35PM (#22658398)
"Germany is not China, we don’t protect people “by force” e.g. by locking them into their apartments"

Wait until you will (chance of avoiding it I think is really small)

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by apta on Sunday March 22, 2020 @09:18PM (#22660407)
> we currently still trust people to do the right thing

Except it's been shown time and time again that people can't be trusted to do the right thing.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by sneak on Monday March 23, 2020 @12:25AM (#22661260)
I don’t think this is a universal truth. It can be trusted that a small percentage of people will be selfish or indifferent, even in the light of warnings; while that always means >0, I don’t think that such a thing can be said to apply to “people” in general.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by apta on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:49AM (#22664071)
I think it is. Look at alcohol for example. Governments that permit alcohol consumption "trust" that people will "drink responsibly". However, just look at the disasters that alcohol has brought about, from drunk driving, to being the cause of many rape and homicide crimes, to health issues for drinkers, to breaking apart families, etc.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by sneak on Monday March 23, 2020 @09:55AM (#22664112)
Many, many more people drink alcohol responsibly than those who cause problems with it. I am not sure that "a minority of people, given freedom, do harmful things with it" is a good reason to broadly take away freedoms from people in general.

There are many other good examples, like driving, over-the-counter medications, and firearms, for example. The fact that 56,000 people each year in the US end up in an ER because of acetaminophen overdose is not a good reason to ban Tylenol from being sold.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by apta on Thursday March 26, 2020 @10:44PM (#22700065)
> Many, many more people drink alcohol responsibly than those who cause problems with it.

The argument is that those who do cause issues cause them in a disproportionate manner that it makes total sense to ban it outright. It is 100% the logical thing to do.

The Tylenol argument doesn't make sense because it is a medicine that can have good come out of it. Alcohol is dangerous, and it mainly exists for companies to profit hugely from it (it's sufficient to watch the lewd ads around alcohol to know what's going on).

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by sneak on Saturday March 28, 2020 @04:04PM (#22713927)
> Alcohol is dangerous, and it mainly exists for companies to profit hugely from it

I think you will find that human manufacture and consumption of alcohol predates the idea of companies. You seem to be letting your personal biases about it affect your beliefs, for example:

> It is 100% the logical thing to do.

This is not some logical, objective fact, but is actually your opinion. It's fine to have the opinion that it should be banned; to present it as "the logical thing" is another.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by apta on Monday March 30, 2020 @10:25AM (#22728254)
> I think you will find that human manufacture and consumption of alcohol predates the idea of companies.

I know it does. However, we know better now, and there is no logical reason to consume it. In fact, the risks to consumption are much higher now. People operate heavy machinery, drive cars, own guns, have "college parties", etc. And we routinely see the disasters that happen because of it.

Large alcohol companies, however, are pushing for consumption purely for monetary aspects. Who cares about the negative effects on society as long as they're pocketing all the profit?

It's logical to ban it precisely because of all the negative things that come out of it, and almost no positives. The negatives strictly outweigh the positives, and hence the logical thing to do is do ban it. Don't we make the same argument about vaccines? Their positives far outweigh their negatives, so we require them. It's just the other way around here.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by sneak on Saturday April 04, 2020 @12:06AM (#22776129)
> The negatives strictly outweigh the positives, and hence the logical thing to do is do ban it.

This is opinion, not fact, and to use terms like “strictly” and “logical” is to attempt to pass off your own subjective personal opinion as objective, impersonal mathematical fact.

Don’t do that. It’s intellectually dishonest. For most people, alcohol’s benefits far outweighs its harms.

I’m sorry that you have had such negative experiences with it to be biased in this way.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by odiroot on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:45PM (#22657429)
I know of another case reported to me by a friend. Their co-workers have taken part in an event that spawned multiple infections. They were ordered to stay home for two weeks and await testing.

No one ever came to test them, after multiple pleas. The two weeks ran out some time ago.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by wbl on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:00PM (#22658082)
Would the tests have made a difference to them?
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by odiroot on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:12PM (#22658191)
In the meantime, since that event, they met multiple co-workers, and they in turn met other people as well (families etc.). So potential for spreading is high.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by PeterisP on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:40PM (#22658432)
Well, that was on the "ordered to stay home for two weeks" part which should have prevented them from meeting multiple coworkers.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by buboard on Monday March 23, 2020 @01:47AM (#22661544)
Maybe the authorities should start sending sham tests that always test positive. Honestly what difference would the test make if they keep meeting people. Even after the event, they expose themselves to infection
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by watwut on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:04PM (#22658640)
They should not through. You are supposed to assume you are infected.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by chris_engel on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:31PM (#22657303)
But if they closed down the class because of that all parents should have been aware that their kids could possibly be infected.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by s9w on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:33PM (#22657328)
That seems strange. Most results are ready in 24h in Germany I think.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by endymi0n on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:49PM (#22657988)
Living in Germany with a neighbor working in intensive care on COVID-19 patients: Germany was one of the first nations to come up with a test and usually, the lab they're working with has a 4h turnaround time, but the backlog is currently 3 days. As said, results vary widely depending on where you are, but on average, Germany's still testing more people here than most other nations other than maybe China or South Korea. I suspect that's the main reason behind the huge discrepancies of deaths per case in Germany vs. South Europe: Germany may not be particularly thorough, but the number of unreported cases is certain to be higher almost anywhere else. Especially the US will have a really rough wakeup call.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by fabian2k on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:00PM (#22657549)
Most stuff related to the pandemic like testing is not centrally organized in Germany, this is all on the state or local level. So I can easily imagine that there are very large differences depending on where exactly you are.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by hobofan on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:30PM (#22657814)
It still looks like a lot of testing is still not being done. 2 of my friends (here in Germany) most likely had it (as attested by their doctor), but were told they would not be tested as they could not with certainty say that they had contact with someone that was tested positive.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by eclipsetheworld on Sunday March 22, 2020 @08:32PM (#22660177)
The test in the lab actually only takes a couple of hours. Most labs are currently struggling with a backlog.

The test is a simple polymerase chain reaction (PCR), however, the number of PCRs that some labs have to perform has increased by an order of magnitude. The utilization of the required machines and the number of qualified lab scientists are now bottlenecks. This is why tests results often take a couple of days now.

We should see faster lab results in the coming weeks as labs are equipped with more machines and staff is retrained. However, this is also of course dependent on the increase of tests.

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by dmix on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:49PM (#22657462)
In Canada it used to be 24hrs, but there is now a 4-5 day waiting period to get results after you get swabbed or blood tested, due to a large backlog of tests.

So most results we see today are about ~9-10 days old if we combine that with “when did first symptoms appear?” survey in the Chinese study (results were often 5-10 days before visiting the hospital when the tests are first initiated). Then on top of that some people take up to 5 days to show the first symptom.

So any data you see today could easily be 2 weeks old. 1 week would be an ideal target in the short term, depending on where your goalposts are...

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by humaniania on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:07PM (#22658147)
That's why the best rule for ingesting news about current events is usually: don't read the comments
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by FpUser on Sunday March 22, 2020 @04:45PM (#22658494)
In theory you're right but I've often see reporting that is plain BS and serving some underlying political agenda rather then cold facts and/or reasonable analysis. So in those cases first hand info from the people who are actually there could make more sense.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by Wubdidu on Monday March 23, 2020 @05:55AM (#22662448)
It really depends… tests in my city are 1-2 days right now I think, but priority cases like doctors will take the front of the queue and can happen all the time. Colleague of mine was tested and diagnosed (negative) within 4 hours, because her partner is a emergency doctor.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by VyperCard on Sunday March 22, 2020 @02:42PM (#22657406)
No. My colleague was tested on Wednesday, still no result.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by GloriousKoji on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:02PM (#22657566)
I don't think there is a way to stop this virus from infecting "everyone". The important thing about self isolation and social distancing is that it reduces the speed of spreading so hospitals are not overloaded.

* "everyone" being a large enough population in the world where heard immunity is achieved, probably something around 90%

Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by kiney on Sunday March 22, 2020 @05:32PM (#22658883)
you can calculate the necessary herd immunity by taking the natural R0: 1-(1/R0) with R0 of 2.4 that would be about 58%
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by mns on Sunday March 22, 2020 @06:48PM (#22659489)
That’s just anecdotal data. Two weeks ago, Munich, test on Sunday for a 4 person family, results came back Tuesday. They were not allowed to leave their home until results came back.
Re:Merkel bans meetings of more than two people to slow coro... by lmm on Sunday March 22, 2020 @09:36PM (#22660482)
That's consistent with what other people in the thread are saying, that Bavaria has declared an emergency and is taking it much more seriously than most other German states.