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Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by mrb on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:13PM (#22549314)
I hate to suggest that but the only short-term solution that seems to work is large-scale extreme response measures, just like China.

Here is evidence why it works: new cases/day decreasing dramatically since February: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESywcEKUwAADhcQ?format=png&name=...

What China did is a complete shutdown and isolation of whole cities, cancellation of public gatherings, prohibition of attendance at school and work, massive mobilization of health and public health personnel as well as military medical units, and rapid construction of entire hospitals.

Wuhan, Iran, Italy have shown us that the health care system simply collapses under the huge number of patients needing hospitalization (20% of infected.) So mobilizing healthcare workers, springing up new "hospitals", and limiting spread with extreme responses is the way to go.

Unfortunately I predict that western governments are going to be less likely to suggest, deploy, and enforce such massive quarantines. Quarantines impede on civil liberties, and people in the West are very protective of freedom and liberties. I think the average American will NOT be okay with his government telling him he is only authorized to exit his house to go shopping once a week...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:24PM (#22552271)
Singapore offers a compelling counter example entailing enlisting voluntary cooperation, rigorous testing and contact tracing, price controls on masks. I don't think China's fundamentally totalitarian / martial law approach is the place to start. I think Singapore offers a much much better model for dealing with Wuhan Flu.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by 9nGQluzmnq3M on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:41PM (#22552349)
But Singapore also backs up its "voluntary cooperation" with a big stick that they're not afraid to use: quarantine order violations including giving false/incomplete information for contact tracing can result in $10,000 fines and 6 months in jail for a first offence, plus cancelling work visas/residency permits for non-citizens:

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/100-a-day-for-...

Apparently -- and this is unconfirmed scuttlebutt -- somebody already landed in hot water for neglecting to tell the authorities about their visits to a red light district. (Which, this being Singapore, are both legal and closely regulated.)

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:51PM (#22552408)
That's very different from the martial law that was effectively imposed in China. If you don't follow the law in most countries you will subject to sanctions, it's no different in Singapore. Typhoid Mary was subjected to forcible quarantine in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by debian3 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:34PM (#22552628)
It’s just that the sanction in Singapore are much more harsh than in the West. When I visited I noticed that fines are about 10 times higher than in Canada for the same offense. And there is no caning as well.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by jxramos on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:09PM (#22552893)
that's a fascinating historical case, first time I learned of it. Do we know how exactly Mary spread the disease? Was it unwashed hands or saliva or her breath? How is typhoid transmitted exactly?
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:31PM (#22553047)
She was a cook who did not wash her hands thoroughly after defecating. Salmonella typhi bacteria causes typhoid and is excreted in feces. She transferred it into cold food--e.g. salads, peach ice cream--that she prepared (cooking kills the bacteria). The doctors of the time theorized that the Salmonella typhi had colonized her gallbladder. There were many asymptomatic carriers detected at the time but few if any persisted as cooks or preparing food once they had been warned.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by microcolonel on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:54AM (#22553914)
Seems to me like a prison sentence when this blows over is reasonable for somebody violating a quarantine order without a good excuse. It's not outside of the legal traditions of the U.S. to have strong quarantine orders, nor is it particularly authoritarian.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by blackoil on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:45PM (#22552724)
Singapore is a city which acted as soon as the first case popped, with aggressive tracing and testing at entry point. US punctured and smashed that bus.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iCarrot on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:58AM (#22554166)
What about Vietnam? Track records so far says Vietnam did/does a much better job than Singapore in Covid-19 and previous pandemics. Yes Vietnam approach is fundamentally totalitarian (suspected can still deny quarantine, but will be pressured) and the result shows: only about 40 confirmed cases over population of 95 millions so far.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by JVIDEL on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:43AM (#22556702)
Can we trust those numbers though?
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by binhminh79 on Friday March 13, 2020 @01:35AM (#22565012)
the catch is, if we're really hiding, we must have got thousands of deaths by now. Just see how quickly it spread in Korea, Italy and Iran. Hiding (thus no action can be done) for 1.5 months is a sure way to suicide, given the amount of traffic in/out of Vietnam and the population density.

Or you can see that in the past week alone we got 27 cases, starting from 2 planes. And the number is low because we vigorously chased people down to test them all and quarantine them. Had we let them go loose those 2 cases alone could spread to hundreds.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by hashbig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:57PM (#22553594)
Singapore is 1/10th the size and population of most countries. Scale changes everything.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iCarrot on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:04AM (#22554196)
Vietnam population is around 95 millions, with less confirmed cases than Singapore, despite sharing border with China. Vietnam also acted immediately since first two patients (2 Chinese tourists parent and child), rigorous contact tracing and testing, price control of masks, food and other necessities.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:29AM (#22554592)
Level of testing / surveillance is not clear. See https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/covid-19-testing/ They have run about 2400 test which is 24 per million in population (on a par with US which is wretched). Italy is 1,000 per million, Hong Kong is 2,000 per million, South Korea is 4,000 per million. Vietnam may be going a good job but they are not testing enough by a factor of 10 to 100 to be sure.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iCarrot on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:22AM (#22555633)
Vietnam is still in containment phase, so tests per million capita is not what I would look at. Rather, about 2400 tests against about 40 confirmed cases is a factor of 60 tests per confirmed cases (this should cover F1, F2). Italy on the other hand is about 60000 tests against 12000 confirmed cases, a factor of only 5. Hong Kong's number is impressive, 120. South Korea's 30.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:56PM (#22559685)
You make a reasonable argument. In 2003-6 I helped out Viet Cervical cancer project on screening models for Pap smears to detect cervical cancer. Vietnamese incidence was high. Vietnamese public health organization was well organized and effective. Some lessons learned were published in Systems Analysis of Real-World Obstacles to Successful Cervical Cancer Prevention in Developing Countries

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2004...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by skmurphy on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:00AM (#22553630)
Population is about 5 million. I think a key effect is to reduce their margin for error.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by hef19898 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:28PM (#22549522)
I agree and disagree at the same time. Let me tell you why.

Extreme measures without a plan and a data basis will certainly make matters worse. We need a plan, which Western countries have. What is somewhat lacking is the basis to implement it. Aggressive testing of everybody would provide this basis, like South Korea does.

Which increases my critique points of the response to a total of two, a viable social media campaign to inform people and prevent panic reactions, which could totally provided and carried by tech companies. So, Google, Twitter, Facebook, if you are listening do something good with your social power! And the aggressive testing of people, everyone, starting with contact persons, people having traveled to risk areas and ultimately everyone.

Other than that I am quite satisfied, in Europe at least. The US seem to be a different story.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by eveningcoffee on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:46PM (#22552375)
I am not sure there is much time left to be satisfied.

Coming 10-14 days will display how the most of the rest of the Europe will actually handle the critical situation.

Only country that appears to be doing something right is Germany. They should tell others what is their trick to keep most of the people alive. Of course they have highest number of intensive care places in EU https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00134-012-2627-8#... so perhaps just brute force is how they do it but I have heard (but was not able to confirm) that they are also isolating their elderly such that they will just receive food and other goods behind their doors. I do not know how right this is but this would make sense.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by qeng-ho on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:37PM (#22553473)
As someone who's monitoring the situation over in Germany because I have family there, Germany is definitely not doing "something right". There is a lack of direction in handling the situation, as well as information for the citizens.

People are calling 116117 but getting hang up on, and the weaker central government (due to obvious historical reasons) means that the response differs state to state. Much like in the US.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by hef19898 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:00AM (#22554702)
Communiction and information realls sucks, that's true. Same goes for a coordinated approach between states. Other then that the situation is more or less under control, as far numbers tell us.

Regarding school closings and such things, at last Bavaria is prepared for that (my sons school is over 1,000 students and might be clsed in the next one or two weeks regardless of cases due to that number of people there, but that is just a snapshot, so).

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by ethbro on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:41PM (#22553114)
> isolating their elderly

Given the mortality rates by age bracket, this makes a huge amount of sense. Subject to their mental and emotional needs being given every consideration, of course.

Assuming (1) a large amount of the public will eventually be infected, (2) infections are (generally speaking) only fatal in older people... why not best protect the most vulnerable among us?

At this point, nursing homes and assisted living facilities should be staff-only, guaranteed paid sick leave, with teleconferencing equipment set up for families.

Wait until new case rate peaks, then start looking at relaxing the restrictions.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by asdfasgasdgasdg on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:50AM (#22553894)
What needs to happen is to reduce the connectedness of the human social graph. The elderly don't need to be totally isolated. They can be seen by family, friends, but we need to limit the number of people that each older person can see, and the number of people that are seen by each younger person. That's what this social distancing is about. The virus travels along nodes where our paths through spacetime intersect or come close, and that is in many cases closely modeled by the human social graph. If you reduce the connectedness of the graph, you reduce the number of potential intersections each carrier has with uninfected people. You do that enough, and you can get the reproduction rate below 1. You do that enough and we can catch up to the infection front and seal it off.

At least, that's the hope as I understand it. That's what I'm trying to help do by staying home and seeing only close friends and only in 1:1 settings.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by 2J0 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:29PM (#22553418)
I'm fifty +- some and became isolated without realising during the years I cared for my mother.

You want to give the old folks, among who I am myself in this respect, something to live for. Attention is the catnip.

Want to kill the olds in droves? Isolate them.

I'm bloody serious about this and believe it's tort that needs a Court hearing for the human sake alone. You don't know anything until you friend all died. Mine did except for who then exited into a new world of economic paranoia and now hides in a regular job after increasingly failing to deal with isolation in the context of a young loving family around him at home at least. I'm so intensely proud of my buddy but he's a truly impractical link back to life for me

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by hef19898 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:57AM (#22554687)
From experience, maybe one hour away from the Austrian border, easures are nowhere near what Austria or Denmark are doing. There is a 14 day self-quarantine rule in place for public institutions like schools and so. When you have been to what is determined to be a high risk zone, you have to self quarantine for 14 days, starting with your last day in that zone (happened to us, we have four days left till Sunday). Most big companies I know of have the same rules in place.

Events over 1,000 people are cancelled, how that applies to larger schools is currently being discussed (source: my sons school is over 1,000 students).

Communication is a little bit of an issue so, we found out about the high risk zone declaration by chance, more or less. On the other hand, case numbers are really low, so I think it's kind of trade-of thing. In denmark the increase in cases triggered the response.

In France on the hand, everybody with any symptoms resembling Corona are sent on sick leave for at least a week, over the phone. People not needed in the office work from home.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by vekker on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:35AM (#22554355)
Living in Germany, I don't have the impression at all that the country is doing much compared to Italy.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by eveningcoffee on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:25AM (#22555096)
Perhaps this is simply structural, multiple generations are not living together (less elderly among infected) there is more ICU capability (easier to put people in need under intensive care).

I could not find demographic breakdown of infected in Germany. This could suggest if these assumptions could be true.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by lbeltrame on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:45PM (#22552023)
> Other than that I am quite satisfied, in Europe at least.

Not in Italy. Our government changed emergency plans at least three times since Sunday and as far as I can tell is not aggressive enough in finding contacts and isolating them. The current trend is just to lock most of the people up and hoping the curve flattens.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Udik on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:38PM (#22552337)
Italy seems to me the only western country to have taken decisive action. For once I am actually rather proud of my country. What are the other European countries waiting for?
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by lbeltrame on Thursday March 12, 2020 @09:52AM (#22556816)
I'm not proud at all: communication was horrible (what do you think you can accomplish by changing things every few days?), caused panic (it's the fault of those who cause confusion, not of the confused), and it was reluctant in getting a no-red tape team up (even "emergency" supplies of respirators needed to go through the stupid bureaucracy).

There is a lot that could've done better than the current approach.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Udik on Friday March 13, 2020 @03:43AM (#22565491)
I think that given the magnitude of the adopted measures it is understandable that they were decided in the course of a few days. Stopping a country of 60 million is no joke. I'm not sure about the panic, but it seems hard to avoid when you tell a whole coutry to not leave their homes. We were also in uncharted territory, in the west: other countries can watch and follow what Italy has done. And yet they seem too slow in taking action. The US hasn't even started testing people.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by lbeltrame on Friday March 13, 2020 @05:26AM (#22565878)
> I think that given the magnitude of the adopted measures it is understandable that they were decided in the course of a few days

There were a few errors done in my view:

1. First, no preparation at all was done at any level. Other countries are now prepping their ICUs to prepare for the incoming tsunami.

2. Horrible communication and execution. The PM can't be both the head of the government and the one enacting the emergency measures (as in putting them into practice short of giving orders), at least not in bureaucracy-land like my country, and this PM in particular is weak and not particularly capable (and made key communication errors like blaming the hospital where the first case was recorded).

3. Laws given without clarity of "appropriate" or "not appropriate" behavior, which required constant clarification from the government

4. The leak of the "executive order" (inappropriate wording, hard to translate it to the actual Italian way of doing it) draft before it was completed, which caused mass panic and exodus (and instead of blaming the "idiots", people should investigate why that happened).

5. Total lack of clarity of how long the lockdown measures will last (if they don't change yet again).

It's not like changing measures every day will change the curve immediately (first lockdown on Sunday, then another on Monday, then more restrictive measures within a few days).

Lastly, all of this flurry of activity from the PM, aside pressure from other involved parties (like local governments), is, according to rumors, done because the current PM is likely to be asked to step down sooner or later (the country was at a political paralysis before the outbreak, and his handling of the crisis made matters worse).

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by hef19898 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:02AM (#22554715)
Followig up contact persons ends to be meaningful once numbers are to high. Fro that point onwards, just closing everybody and everthing down right away is more effective. Following up individuals would have the same result anyway and take much longer.

How is Italy testing so?

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by cashsterling on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:44PM (#22552713)
I think you need to be really careful creating statistics out of thin air, like: "20% of infected people require hospitalization". We don't know how many people in a given region are infected... we only know the positive test cases and all percentages are based upon the positive test cases.

There is evidence that a lot of people contract the virus and have no symptoms or very mild symptoms.

Reported stats out of various countries/egions also do not account for things like the severity of regional air pollution (Wuhan, Tehran, and Milan have BAD air pollution) or the other key statistics, like "do they smoke?" (lot of smokers in China, Italy, and Iran... just saying). Bad air pollution and smoking tears the crap out of the lungs and makes it much easier to contract respiratory infections.

Caution and concern are completely warranted.... significant action needs to be taken to protect all of us, especially our elderly and immune suppressed.

But we need to be careful about pushing information that causes a descent into panic.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by semerda on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:06PM (#22552152)
Large-scale extreme response measures are a disaster waiting to happen.

1. 38% of nurses have children at school. Shutdown the country and 1/4 of the US healthcare industry will choose their children over work in a blink. We don't want to put any more pressure on the people working in healthcare.

2. 75% of US companies have now a disrupted supply chain. Yes the cons of outsourcing core economic functions like manufacturing drugs, hospital supplies etc... Mass mania followed by ongoing shopping sprees will set in further draining a crippled supply chain.

What we need more of is hygiene education (with strict fines) and detailed data about who, where and how they are affected by the virus. Being politically correct in a time where the world is at the brink of chaos is not going to save anyone. Sometimes hard debates need to be had and tight restrictions enforced. It's sort of like the Trolley problem.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by andrewla on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:24PM (#22549455)
Why do people point to the China response as being a model response, as though that is easily seen. China has had an order of magnitude more deaths and instances than any other country. While you can point to many factors showing why it is disingenuous to look at those raw numbers without context, it seems to me that the burden of proof is on the other side, to show that the China model is actually effective, because naively it looks like it didn't work out too well.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iforgotpassword on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:15PM (#22549990)
Because China is a good month ahead of the rest of the world, and is much denser populated in the cities (which are also much larger than ours).

The initial cover up didn't help either. Once they instated the lockdown, they could test the backlog of people. That took quitea while. But now the spread has pretty much stopped, while everywhere else on this planet it increases day by day.

After the initial cover-up got public, the West couldn't get enough of reporting about it, and how this is the reason it could spread so fast, how irresponsible it was, and how it's typical for evil China. Now we have that virus here, plus two month of knowledge about it, and we're still mostly being reactive instead of proactive. In China's defense, when they tried to cover it up, much less was known about the disease, like it's asymptomatic spread. Now the cards are on the table and we're being ignorant, as if ignoring a problem makes it go away. But hey, when things are getting really really ugly for us, we can still go back to blaming China for their initial cover-up.

Watch Italy closely the next days, and compare it to China when they were at a similar stage. It will tell you what's to come in your country too. Another thing that's suspicious about Italy is the high CFR of around 6%. It most likely means they're not doing enough testing, only the severe cases, so the rest wanders around the country happily spreading it further.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by joe_the_user on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:46PM (#22550326)
Absolutely this summarizes the situation.

It's worth noting that South Korea also was able to engage in such mass mobilization. Moreover, if the trends continue for a few weeks, China's not going to have an order of magnitude more death anymore.

Italy's high CFR sounds like a health care that's broken far more than the Chinese health care system, a system which essentially isn't taking any specific extreme measures (which would be building more hospitals, importing more health care workers, etc).

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by selectodude on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @05:52PM (#22551194)
Italy also has a demographic curve skewed heavily older than most other nations. Italy is the 2nd oldest country on earth after Japan.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by dmix on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:04PM (#22551297)
And 89% of Italy's fatal cases are people >70yrs old.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by shadowprofile77 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:01PM (#22551731)
If you don't mind, Where did you find this information? I've been searching for a breakdown of all fatalities so far by age group (raw numbers, not just average percentages) and could not find it.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by jurassic on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:57PM (#22552104)
It was covered in the WSJ earlier this week: https://www.wsj.com/articles/italy-with-elderly-population-h...
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by shadowprofile77 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:32AM (#22554603)
Thank you to all three of you for these.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by NortySpock on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:27PM (#22553016)
https://www.flattenthecurve.com/#This_is_Not_Normal_Flu_-_No... Percentage graph at the link from Chinese CDC, though

Korea CDC has raw numbers it looks like. https://www.cdc.go.kr/board/board.es?mid=a30402000000&bid=00...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by beauzero on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:17PM (#22553357)
https://www.reddit.com/r/covid19 ...pretty well curated. Mostly scientific articles, stats, etc.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Nuzzerino on Thursday March 12, 2020 @07:37PM (#22563210)
You may want to reconsider relying on /r/COVID19 as a source of information. There's been a lot of criticism on how they are applying censorship, and no transparency around it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/f2jiyz/uclo_jun...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by dugditches on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:00PM (#22551719)
Because they're still treating them in some regard(before being overwhelmed).

However once things get even more overwhelmed, you have bad cases become critical leading to more fatalities.

The going figure seems to 20% are badly impacted, with 5% of that critical. Some of that 15% will become critical without treatment that might not be available. Thus impacting people <70.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by marvin on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:13PM (#22551815)
Thus far. Most of the younger critical patients are not out of the woods yet. Also, many of those are left to die without treatment or assessment because there aren't enough ventilators for them.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by twsted on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:01PM (#22551273)
I don’t know how they compare, but consider that in the north of Italy there is one of the most advanced health care system in the world.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by jupp0r on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:48PM (#22551643)
I'm not sure "advanced" is what's needed for healthcare systems to cope with this. It's relatively low-tech care scaled up quickly. My fear is that the amount of institutional inertia, and where in time the inflection point of overcoming that inertia lies will determine outcomes.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by unishark on Thursday March 12, 2020 @01:19AM (#22554010)
> After the initial cover-up got public, the West couldn't get enough of reporting about it, and how this is the reason it could spread so fast, how irresponsible it was, and how it's typical for evil China. Now we have that virus here, plus two month of knowledge about it, and we're still mostly being reactive instead of proactive. In China's defense, when they tried to cover it up, much less was known about the disease, like it's asymptomatic spread. Now the cards are on the table and we're being ignorant, as if ignoring a problem makes it go away. But hey, when things are getting really really ugly for us, we can still go back to blaming China for their initial cover-up.

I think you're combining two largely-unrelated factors. The news in any country is only going to be interested in the most salacious stories in countries 12 time zones away. This is just how the market operates. A tiny percentage of china dying from a new kind of flu is not as headline-grabbing as people dying due to govt misbehavior.

Meanwhile our govt isn't blind, they have people and plans in place for everything and they think they are ready and in control. Then, it turns out it's a clusterfuck anyway that takes way longer than expected to implement. They need to have dealt with the exact same disaster in recent years to get it right. It's a problem with implementing a large-scale system you can't test until it's needed.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iforgotpassword on Thursday March 12, 2020 @03:07AM (#22554500)
Having plans in place is great, but we're already running out of masks, gloves etc. here in Germany and it's only about to start. We didn't even try to stock up on this, since "lol China flu, won't concern us". Germany actually just intercepted a shipment of gloves from China to Switzerland and kept them. That's how desperate they are over here.

But in fact I doubt there really is a plan in place at all. It seems most countries ignored this, hoping they'll be spared of this, then stumbled along with adhoc measures, and only now slowly start to listen to experts.

Saying there is nothing we could have done better from just looking at what unfolds in China is very questionable.

> The news in any country is only going to be interested in the most salacious stories in countries 12 time zones away. This is just how the market operates.

... for about a month, and still bringing it up to this date.

Compare [1] to [2]. Notice anything? Western, especially US media is becoming more and more of an echo chamber trying to strengthen that simplistic world view that we are the good guys and they are the bad guys. But it's not overly surprising really, considering the financial struggles of traditional media over the last decade. As you said, the focus shifts more and more towards stories and headlines that sell, even for once renowned outlets like the NYTimes.

[1] https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1236484352965521408

[2] https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1236479276586807296

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by unishark on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:03AM (#22554721)
In the US the most notable problem is the tests. They had this grand plan to gets millions of them produced and be available at every local testing clinic, which ran into one misstep after another.

Do you recall the international coverage of Hurricane Katrina? It was dominated by the stories about rape gangs and anarchy which all ultimately turned out to be false rumors. Media everywhere sucks like that to some degree. As an american, I probably notice the bias towards stories that make the US look bad a lot more than you might.

Though I get what you're saying. US media may be one of the worst in the developed world. I don't even look at it anymore. Lucky I learned about coronavirus from here and adjusted my plans for it. And the NYT in particular seems to be really anti-China since they got blocked in China a long time ago.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by MockObject on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:03PM (#22551287)
"CFR" = case-fatality rate.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by baq on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:08PM (#22551341)
Fully agree except that Italy’s CFR is most likely caused by its large proportion of elderly people. Compare to South Korea where the majority of infected are young and thus CFR is sub 1%.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:31PM (#22552606)
The difference in age demographics isn't nearly enough to account for the differences in outcomes, unless you believe the proportion of people in Italy >70 years old is 5-10x that of South Korea. (Spoiler alert: it's not).

The issue has to do with preparedness and healthcare capacity. South Korea has 3x the number of hospital beds per capita than Italy.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by cmurf on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:31PM (#22551938)
Japan has an even more elderly population than Italy, yet a lower CFR than South Korea. Is Japan testing enough? Are they somehow self-isolating way better than anyone else?
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by tooltalk on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:35PM (#22552639)
Japan isn't really doing much and many suspect that they are deliberately looking away from the coronavirus outbreak because of the 2020 Olympics later this year. IMO, the gov't willful neglect and concealment is exactly what enabled the coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China and I fear this might come back to bite them later.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by acoderhasnoname on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:00PM (#22552116)
Japan didn't really test much. Lots of elderly die alone even without virus, people used to it.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by kaiabwpdjqn on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:57PM (#22551696)
CFR in Italy is lower in every age category than in China.

It’s Simpson’s paradox

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by mrb on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:28PM (#22549517)
Well, look at this chart which speaks volume about how successful China is in containing the outbreak, with new cases per day decreasing dramatically since February: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESywcEKUwAADhcQ?format=png&name=... And look in particular how cases in other countries are starting to explode since the last week or so.

Or look at cumulative deaths (outside China): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESyyxfiUMAEwMVa?format=png&name=... The growth follows a perfect exponential curve, which suggests other countries have so far been completely unable to even bend the epidemic curve a little bit. It is obvious given this data that we will see 10k deaths outside China by March 20. I have a perfect track record at making such predictions in the past: https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3Azorinaq%20%23PredictionW... (short-term predictions are easy to make, long-term not so much)

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Seenso on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:41PM (#22549672)
You also have to take into account that China probably took the right actions, but their big failure was in timing them poorly. If they'd implemented travel restrictions before Chinese New Year, we probably wouldn't be talking about a pandemic right now.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iforgotpassword on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:28PM (#22550116)
Considering the lack of action, or the very delayed manner in which we, the West, start to put up measures to prevent spread, I very highly doubt so.

Consider the incubation time of 5 days avg, 14 days max during which you're already infectious. Even if China had reacted quickly, not trying to cover it up, we still wouldn't have known about that for a while. Even without the Chinese new year, I'm pretty sure given how dense and large Chinese cities are, this would have spread eventually either way. And I doubt the rest of the world would have reacted any different in that alternate reality than now. We still have travel with China and Italy today. Why would that have been any different had China handled that differently? It would have been slower, but it would have spread to other countries, I have no doubt about that.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by glic3rinu on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @05:38PM (#22551046)
> Consider the incubation time of 5 days avg, 14 days max during which you're already infectious."

I have seen several comments like this on this thread suggesting people are contagious during the incubation phase. Do you have a source for this? AFAIK this has not yet been confirmed, other than perhaps a few anecdotal cases.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by iforgotpassword on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:05PM (#22551307)
I'm also just aware of a few anecdotal cases, but I guess this is very hard to scientifically confirm by its nature. There have been several cases in the US where it could not be traced back where they could have been infected (which could or could not be asymptomatic, or just incomplete knowledge of contacts). The first case in Germany was also asymptomatic spread[1]. Even if this just happens in few cases it would still be devastating, especially if it also happens with those that go completely asymptomatic for the entirety of their infection, which is currently said to be about 10 to 20% of all infections.

I check out John Campbell on YouTube every couple days. He has this unique style of presenting current developments and research papers in a no-bs manner and commenting on them, currently urging for more proactive measures mostly.

[1] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2001468?url_ver=Z...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by creato on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:56PM (#22552096)
People need to stop talking about this as a binary yes or no fact. It is almost guaranteed that it is possible to infect someone else while not showing symptoms and this probably has actually happened. The question is how common it is. Most credible sources I've seen seem to say that it is unlikely/uncommon.

It seems likely that if we fully controlled most of the cases that had visible symptoms, the spread would stop, even if we failed to control the cases which did not show symptoms.

The same is true for spread via surfaces: while I'm sure it's possible and happens, it seems like the primary mechanism of infection is breathing infected respiratory droplets from someone else.

Sources: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/transmission...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by ethbro on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:50PM (#22553185)
Last guidance I saw from the CDC was that people without obvious symptoms were likely to only be contact-infectious, as opposed to airborne-infectious (droplets) once symptomatic.

If true, social distancing, hand hygiene, and not touching ones face would bring asymptomatic transmission down to almost zero.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by nicoburns on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:18PM (#22551423)
This guy from the CDC claims this. Can't remember the source. I think it was a study from germany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZFhjMQrVts
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by toasterlovin on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:31PM (#22550142)
Hindsight is 20/20. It’s hard to know ahead of time whether you should cancel your nation’s equivalent of Christmas + Thanksgiving because you have preliminary and incomplete information about a disease outbreak somewhere.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by mbesto on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:06PM (#22549903)
Or, ya know, they coulda just prevented wildlife trade via regulation in the first place.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Jommi on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:24PM (#22550085)
Yes, we all know that once regulation steps in, the thing regulated is completely stopped!
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by mbesto on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @05:20PM (#22550812)
Regulation doesn't have to be binary. The point of it isn't to eradicate behavior, just lessen it so the risk can be mitigated and contained. Perhaps I should have said "lessened wildlife trade" to be more specific.

Regulation sucks until it saves your life.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by fspeech on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:46PM (#22552028)
Number of deaths is a lagging indicator while number of PUI (patients under investigation) would be a leading indicator. But since number of deaths is the number that can be easily aggregated let's hope in a few weeks we will find out that the curve has already started to bend.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by dnautics on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:27PM (#22552585)
> The growth follows a perfect exponential curve

You don't think that's a testing kit production curve?

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by sunir on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @10:48PM (#22553169)
Do you believe epidemiologists can’t account for that?
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:46PM (#22552732)
Well, it's not hard to test if someone's dead.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by owl57 on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:15AM (#22553715)
They are probably counted as dead from COVID-19 only if they were tested.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by stOneskull on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @05:57PM (#22551238)
> new cases per day decreasing dramatically since February

some good news

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by beaunative on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:40PM (#22550253)
I mean, don't just look at the absolute numbers, arguable China has 1/5 of the world's population.

I believe the argument to be made here is that most parts in China, excluding Hubei, has a lot less cases than Korea or Italy, when Korea's population is about 3-4% that of China. In most provinces in China there were 0 deaths.

Ideally, European countires like Italty are far further away and should have fewer cases than those regions closer to the epicenter, but reality suggest otherwise.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:35PM (#22552631)
Italy, Hubei, and South Korea all happen to have around ~60M people.

When talking about China's coronavirus response, the numbers really have to be split up into Hubei and non-Hubei.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by yibg on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @03:43PM (#22549692)
China seems to have done well to contain the virus in Hubei. The other major cities like Beijing and Shanghai, while affected by the containment measures were relatively lightly affected by the virus itself. If we can manage that I’d call it a success.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by oarabbus_ on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:43PM (#22550285)
> China has had an order of magnitude more deaths and instances than any other country.

I don't know if you were being colloquial, but this isn't true. China has 80k, Italy 12k cases and the latter is seeing rapid increases.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by yellowapple on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:51PM (#22550402)
Not to mention that China was pretty slow to properly react (nearly 2 months between the start of the outbreak and the start of Wuhan's quarantine, by which point it had already spread to South Korea and Thailand, and likely to Italy), and even outright suppressed the doctors/whistleblowers who originally publicly raised concern about the virus (which the Supreme People's Court even admitted was a bad idea; you know the PRC government done goofed when they're actually willing to admit they made a mistake).

The US should be looking at China as a case study on how not to handle the early stages of a pandemic. Instead it seems like we're making the same mistakes (though thankfully at least some areas are being proactive about e.g. shutting down schools).

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by adinobro on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:03PM (#22552135)
You need to get some better sources.

The earliest case was found at the start of December but it wasn't correctly identified till the end (they went back and tested existing patients).

It wasn't confirmed as being able to spread person to person until the 17th although there was some evidence that it should have been identified on the 11th. (So a delay of either 5 or 10 days rather than 2 months)

The doctor didn't raise public concern. He told a few friends and told them not to tell people. The official announcement was made the following day.

If you look at the timetable it is significantly better than the SARs response or the N1H1 response so we seem to be learning and making progress which is good.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by yellowapple on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:28AM (#22553779)
My sources are the same as Wikipedia's, specifically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%932...

----- BEGIN WIKIPEDIA QUOTE -----

(30 December)

On 30 December 2019, genetic sequencing report of the pathogen of a patient indicated inaccurately the discovery of Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS coronavirus) in the test result.[15] After receiving the test result, multiple doctors in Wuhan shared the information via internet, including Dr. Li Wenliang, an ophthalmologist at Wuhan Central Hospital, who posted a warning to alumni from his medical school class via a WeChat online forum that a cluster of seven patients treating within the ophthalmology department had been unsuccessfully treated for symptoms of viral pneumonia and diagnosed with SARS.[20][21][15] Because these patients did not respond to traditional treatments, they were quarantined in an ER department of the Wuhan Central Hospital.[22] In the WeChat forum, Li posted that this cluster of patients appeared to be infected by SARS. Dr. Li posted a snippet of an RNA analysis finding "SARS coronavirus" and extensive bacteria colonies in a patient's airways according to a chat transcript that he and other chat members later shared online. [...] Dr. Li is widely known for the statement he gave before his death exemplifying how the Chinese government botched the containment of the Wuhan coronavirus, stating "There should be more than one voice in a healthy society."[20]

The Chinese National Health Commission announced later that evening that 8 doctors engaging in this WeChat forum had been arrested by Wuhan Police and charged with "llegal acts of fabricating, spreading rumors and disrupting social order."[25]

Wuhan medical authorities forbade doctors from making public announcements and ordered them to report cases internally.[26]

[...]

(31 December)

Qu Shiqian, a vendor at the Huanan Seafood Market, said government officials had disinfected the premises on 31 December 2019 and told stallholders to wear masks. Qu said he had only learnt of the pneumonia outbreak from media reports. "Previously I thought they had flu," he said. "It should be not serious. We are fish traders. How can we get infected?"[29]

"Chinese state television reported that a team of experts from the National Health Commission had arrived in Wuhan on 31 December 2019 to lead the investigation, while the People's Daily said the exact cause remained unclear and it would be premature to speculate."[28][29][38] Chinese state broadcaster CCTV reported that a team of senior health experts had been dispatched to the city of Wuhan and were reported to be "conducting relevant inspection and verification work."[30]

Tao Lina, a public health expert and former official with Shanghai's Centre for disease control and prevention, said, "I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China's disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support."[29]

[...]

(1 January)

According to the Chinese state-sponsored Xinhua News, the Huanan Seafood Market was closed on 1 January 2020 for "regulation."[22] However, in the Consortium's report of 24 January 2020, it was stated that the Huanan Seafood Market had been closed on 1 January 2020 for "cleaning and disinfection."[36]

[...]

(2 January)

On 2 January, 41 admitted hospital patients in Wuhan, China, were confirmed to have contracted (laboratory-confirmed) the 2019-nCoV (Wuhan coronavirus); 27 (66%) patients had direct exposure to Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market.[8] All 41 patients were subsequently relocated from the hospital they had originally been diagnosed in to the Jinyintan Hospital in Wuhan, China.[8]

[...]

(3 January)

On 3 January 2020, Dr. Li Wenliang, the Wuhan ophthalmologist who had been arrested for spreading false "rumors" on WeChat, was summoned to the Wuhan Public Security Bureau where he was told to sign an official confession and admonition letter promising to cease spreading false "rumors" regarding the coronavirus. In the letter, he was accused of "making false comments" that had "severely disturbed the social order". The letter stated, "We solemnly warn you: If you keep being stubborn, with such impertinence, and continue this illegal activity, you will be brought to justice—is that understood?" Dr. Li signed the confession writing: "Yes, I understand."[21]

[...]

(4 January)

The head of the University of Hong Kong's Centre for Infection, Ho Pak-leung, warned that the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it was highly possible that the illness was spreading from human to human. The microbiologist also warned that there could be a surge in cases during the upcoming Chinese New Year. Ho said he hoped the mainland would release more details as soon as possible about the patients infected with the disease, such as their medical history, to help experts analyse the illness and to allow for more effective preventive measures to be put in place.[43]

[...]

(7 January)

Since the outburst of social media discussion of the mysterious pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan, China, Chinese authorities censored the hashtag #WuhanSARS and were now investigating anyone who was allegedly spreading misleading information about the outbreak on social media.[51]

[...]

(18 January)

On the same day, the Wuhan City government held an annual banquet in the Baibuting community celebrating the Chinese New Year with forty thousand families in attendance despite the officials' knowledge of the spread of the Wuhan coronavirus. They shared meals, plates and ate together.[83] On 21 January 2020 when Wuhan mayor Zhou Xianwang was asked on state television why this banquet was held even after the number of cases had risen to 312 he responded, "The reason why the Baibuting community continued to host the banquet this year was based on the previous judgment that the spread of the epidemic was limited between humans, so there was not enough warning."[26]

[...]

(21 January)

After 300 confirmed diagnoses and 6 deaths, Chinese state media warned lower-level officials not to cover up the spread of a new coronavirus.[40] Officials declared that anyone who concealed new cases would "be nailed on the pillar of shame for eternity", the political body responsible for law and order said. Local Chinese officials initially withheld information about the epidemic from the public. It later vastly under-reported the number of people that had been infected, downplayed the risks and failed to provide timely information that experts say could have saved lives. In its commentary published online on Tuesday January 20, 2020, the Communist Party's Central Political and Legal Commission talked of China having learned a "painful lesson" from the SARS epidemic and called for the public to be kept informed. Deception, it warned, could "turn a controllable natural disaster into a man-made disaster".[40]

[...]

(28 January)

China's Supreme People's Court ruled that whistleblower, Li Wenliang, had not committed the crime of spreading "rumors" when on 30 December 2019 he posted to a WeChat forum for medical school alumni that seven patients under his care appeared to have contracted SARS. In their ruling, the Supreme People's Court stated, "If society had at the time believed those 'rumours', and wore masks, used disinfectant and avoided going to the wildlife market as if there were a SARS outbreak, perhaps it would've meant we could better control the coronavirus today," the court said. "Rumours end when there is openness."[221][222]

----- END WIKIPEDIA QUOTE -----

So:

> The earliest case was found at the start of December but it wasn't correctly identified till the end (they went back and tested existing patients).

By that timeline, it wasn't even correctly identified by the end of December (though the "rumor" Dr. Li et. al. disseminated about it looking like SARS ended up being pretty close).

> It wasn't confirmed as being able to spread person to person until the 17th although there was some evidence that it should have been identified on the 11th. (So a delay of either 5 or 10 days rather than 2 months)

There's evidence that it should've been recognized as at least potentially spreading person to person by the 3rd, at the very latest (given that not all cases were connected to the Huanan Seafood Market).

> The doctor didn't raise public concern. He told a few friends and told them not to tell people.

He told an online forum of his fellow alumni, and he (among others) posted transcripts online, drawing the ire of authorities.

> The official announcement was made the following day.

Yes, after those "rumors" about SARS forced their hand.

> If you look at the timetable it is significantly better than the SARs response or the N1H1 response so we seem to be learning and making progress which is good.

True, and that's commendable, but even China admits it done goofed. It's great that (as far as we can tell) they've course-corrected and are getting a handle on things, but let's not gloss over how their kneejerk tendency toward censorship and their casual "well we don't know for sure if it spreads human to human so let's pretend we're all safe" attitude around the outbreak directly contributed to what's now officially a global pandemic.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by adinobro on Thursday March 12, 2020 @04:40AM (#22554888)
The fact that people outside of China don't know what WeChat is make sense. It isn't an "online forum". It is more like a private Whatsapp group. He also told them the wrong information. He shouldn't have been charged but while he used the "internet" it wasn't public. It was passed around and others did post it publically online.

I don't know why Wikipedia is missing a lot of the public information that happened before the 31st. The local government was notified on the 28th. The National government was notified on the 30th. Other hospitals in the region were notified around this time as well.

His "leak" came while a lot of people were being notified about this problem. It "looks" like they would have notified the public and WHO a few days later once they had more information.

We still don't know if the original source is the seafood market. The fact that not all the cases came from there doesn't mean much. The SARS expert (Guan Yi) from Hong Kong said that there was no proof of human to human transmission on the 3rd.

You've counted time before anyone knew it existed in your 2-month delay. The first death was on the 10th. Less than 50 people have the virus. The probably should have done something then or on the 15th (second death).

There was a delay but more like 2 weeks compared to 2 months. If you are saying that they should have done something before they knew it existed then ... what should they have done?

As it is people are constantly bashing them for doing something.

What do you think they should have done and when?

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by yellowapple on Thursday March 12, 2020 @06:06PM (#22562382)
> What do you think they should have done and when?

Not kneejerk-censor anyone "spreading rumors" about it, for one.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by tigershark on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @05:46PM (#22551118)
Let’s see who is really naive in a couple of months.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by Udik on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:39PM (#22552343)
> China has had an order of magnitude more deaths and instances than any other country

So far.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by dmagee on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:20PM (#22552246)
https://www.databrew.cc/posts/covid Is a really good blog post on the data behind COVID-19.

Once countries get to about 150 cases their trajectories are very similar. So far the USA has not been too different to Italy.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by slovenlyrobot on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:54PM (#22550440)
> Here is evidence why it works: new cases/day decreasing dramatically since February: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESywcEKUwAADhcQ?format=png&name=....

Such an impressive single day drop, it's almost like they stopped testing people..

Meanwhile, I recommend relying on vastly more credible and less easily falsified sources to judge how China is recovering.

If you trust your eyes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf-4zQADLS8

If you trust TomTom, https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/wuhan-traffic

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:24PM (#22552567)
If there are large scale falsified numbers in China, local and national authorities are certainly acting like they believe them. People are out and about; restaurants are opening; going back to work.

I don't get how people can simultaneously think "China instituted unthinkable totalitarian measures to isolate and quarantine people" and "all the numbers out of China are false, it has to be undergoing exponential growth like other countries."

You can choose one or the other, but not both: they're not self-consistent.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by pmiller2 on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:35PM (#22552640)
They are self-consistent if “unthinkable totalitarian measures” didn’t work, and the Chinese government has switched to a mitigation strategy without informing the populace.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:42PM (#22552691)
If you think that people being locked up in their apartments for a month would result in the same transmission rates as people going about their lives freely, I don't know what to tell you: apart from all the other fantastic properties people have imagined SARS-CoV-2 to have, it also apparently can magically infect people who don't have contact with it.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by gravelc on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @08:35PM (#22552327)
Even if testing completely stopped, presumably an over-strained health system would be obvious and almost impossible to hide.

I can see why people are extremely resistant to believing anything the Chinese government says, but there seem to be indicators that don't rely on their statements.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by marcosdumay on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:18PM (#22552522)
So, how strained exactly are China hospitals?

Because I certainly don't know it, and there isn't anybody around here talking about this for some reason (and ok, even if there were, it would be hard to know if they are reliable - and yes, the entire world knows the reason, China prohibited talking about it).

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by scarmig on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @09:26PM (#22552580)
"China hospitals" is a bit broad. From my perspective in Beijing, at least, the hospitals here are on high alert but not at all strained.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by nl on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @06:36PM (#22551564)
Isn't that showing how well the shutdown of Wuhan is working? No one has claimed the shutdown is over.

If anything that makes the number more believable.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by classified on Tuesday March 17, 2020 @04:57AM (#22603022)
The rest of the world is definitely not fascist enough in handling this. We should pass worldwide control to the Chinese government.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by simonh on Thursday March 12, 2020 @12:57AM (#22553925)
I think I’m retrospect the severity of the lockdown in China will be seen as a mistake. Many of the steps they took were unnecessarily damaging, and realistically It’s only a matter of time before there’s another outbreak over there, in fact it’s probably already happening. There’s just no way to stop this virus, we can only slow it down.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by mercer on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:18AM (#22554259)
From what I understand, 'slowing it down' is really important, so we can't really tell quite yet how necessary the lockdown in China was. Sure, the virus isn't contained and it will probably return. But how many lives were saved or will be saved because the lockdown 'only' slowed things down?

Not saying I have a strong opinion on this; I really have no clue. But at least from what I understand even just slowdown might be worth quite a high cost.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by simonh on Thursday March 12, 2020 @05:00AM (#22554977)
Yes, that’s all true. It’s just a matter of the scale of the cost and benefits. Welding people into their apartments seems excessive, I have to wonder how many old or sick people died or suffered unnecessarily as a result.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by citilife on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:15PM (#22549993)
Extreme measures are likely doing more harm than good -- as soon as China loosens them, there will be a flood of cases. You can't eradicate a disease that spreads via the air we breath (and can spread to animals). You can slow it, but much like Influenza you're stuck with it forever now.

With that in mind, the larger impact is going to be the lack of medicine, food, etc. that comes from a large-scale heavy response. We are just at the beginning. Push for social distancing, but over the next two years we're just going to have to learn to deal with this. It'll mutate, we'll find ways to mitigate damage and we'll have a large loss of life.

Push out higher production of medical equipment and push out the best possible safety gear for healthcare workers. On a personal level, try to stay fit, get lots of rest, and try to quickly take care of any other conditions. Stay home if you are sick (to avoid spreading any illness).

That's about the extent we can do.

Closing schools, closing offices, shutting down the economy is going to be far more damaging than this disease will be.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by ezioamf on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:33PM (#22550169)
Extreme measures is to slow down the first wave of cases so the number of patients needing medical attention is under the local capacity. Death rate is between 0.6% to 8% depending on how you can treat the patients and that requires that you have enough capacity to handle it. Over time we will have better medicines to reduce the need of ICUs and vaccines and then containment will not be necessary but we will continue to handle it as a seasonal disease.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by paulmd on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:08PM (#22551785)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21149215

There are approximately 20 full-service ventilators per 100k population in the united states. Let's say 1% of cases require hospitalization and ventilation. That means we can sustain a sick population of 200 per 100k, or 0.2% at any given time.

You underestimate just how unprepared we are for this situation. It is not possible to "bend the curve" enough to keep everyone safe (infected below 2% of the population). Full stop, that little chart from bendthecurve.com with the nice flat blue curve that goes under "medical system capacity" will not happen. That's fantasy.

By all means we should do everything we can, the more we can slow the disease the fewer people will die, but the happy fantasy scenarios about everybody washes their hands and doesn't go to the sportsball game and we bend the curve enough that our medical system's capacity will be sufficient is just a fantasy.

Further, the lower we reduce the reproduction rate, the longer this crisis will last. This is a crass observation, but if you let it burn through the population it'll be done in a few months. If you really "bend that curve" and substantially decrease reproduction rate, then it'll take correspondingly longer to exhaust its susceptible population. That means sustaining quarantine measures for a longer period of time.

Researchers point to Coronavirus peaking around June or July. That means it will remain a serious problem through at least August or September ("peak" doesn't mean it's done, it just means it's slowing down). Interventions will extend that further. We need to consider the possibility that quarantine will be required for an extended period. How will this work if we need to turn our economy off for 6 months? Nine months? A year?

Grandparent is probably correct that if China loosens its quarantine measures that it's going to bounce back. And in fact that is a problem that everyone has to consider.

https://www.ketv.com/article/unmc-models-suggest-covid-19-ca...

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-03/coronavirus-government-w...

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.12.20022566v...

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by ezioamf on Thursday March 12, 2020 @02:15PM (#22559880)
I did not said that we are prepared for it. What I was saying that we need extreme measures to slow down the number of cases and not that we will have full success at doing it but we can save a lot of lives and this the only thing that really matters.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by oarabbus_ on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @04:41PM (#22550259)
>Extreme measures are likely doing more harm than good

You lost me here.

I hope we never do them in the USA, but the extreme measures taken by China absolutely halted the spread of the disease.

Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by fspeech on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @07:15PM (#22551826)
And now they can export medical supply to the rest of the world. Just imagine if they had not been able to halt the spread.
Re:Covid-19 is now officially a pandemic, WHO says by undefinedblog on Wednesday March 11, 2020 @11:46PM (#22553523)
me getting lost too, op suggests China should just let loose?