> First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two. You swear that when you come back things will be different, but then you have to answer slack messages at 9pm, and your project is slipping at work, and your wife is flirting with strangers every time you go to a bar, and well... in a month or two you're back to feeling exactly the same way you did before (until you take the next vacation
Your problems are situational, and when you remove yourself from that situation (using mushrooms or not) your life gets better and when you come back it's worse. It's not the mushrooms fault your life is a mess. Why are you answering slack messages at 9PM? Quit your job or just don't do it. Get rid of your wife if she's making you unhappy.
Do you think that maybe you should be giving your wife your attention at 9PM, rather than slack? How is this not painfully obvious?!
Some people just love misery, it's like - you have identified all your problems but rather than solve them you'll just sit around and point fingers and complain.
What did you expect? You'd take a mushroom and your wife disappears? Or transforms into a princess? You take a mushroom and your slack messages start answering themselves at 9PM?
What did you actually expect from the mushrooms?
I've taken multiple times as I find it fun to do but there was this one time I took it when I didn't feel good and just took it kinda out of boredom and it hit me in the face that I was making some major mistakes in my life and I needed to turn these around. I felt awful the entire trip but thanks to the newly gained insights I was able to actually act and change myself for the better. LSD never changed any of my problems but it made me aware what they actually were in a more concrete sense.
To put it bluntly I was unhappy without really knowing why, and after LSD I was unhappy and knowing why. I don't believe psychadelics will ever resolve your problems, you just gain new insights on your issues and it'll still be up to you - in a sober state I presume - to act on these insights.
If no one tells you this , you can't solve problem number one. Problem number one always results in no sex followed by a system break down hence the princess comment. In the western society women initiate 2/3 of the divorces.
GP is nuanced giving a helicopter view on the personal projection at hand so it doesn't dilute the actual news brought here to light . If this tone sounds offensive we could ask HN to introduce emojis.
Someone once said something about a hammer the same applies for the mushroom.
Edit: your original comment included in Turkey we have a saying.
Interesting. Source?
> I am not sure his suggestion is practical
So what's your solution? Just live in misery all the time because doing the easy thing is easier than doing the correct thing? Avoid immediate discomfort in exchange for long term happiness - what terrible advice. No wonder these people are depressed.
You only get to live once, and I cant imagine anything worse than rotting away because you dont have the balls to stick up for yourself - sitting there at 9PM answering slack messages rather than just saying "I'm off the clock, go hire more people if you want 24/7 support".
Make love to her and save your marriage or break up and move on, just don't sit in resentment filled limbo, watching her clearly unhappy and flirting with other men --- then act surprised and betrayed when the thing THAT YOU CAN SEE MILES AWAY happens. He can see the unhappy future approaching and he's still not acting? Why? Because he is in love with misery like my post says.
Except when he does the mushrooms and they cheer him up a bit and give him the clarity and happiness to fix it. He still has to do it himself though
In my observation the perpetually depressed are often (no, not always, but very often) home bodies who barely leave their domicile and spend ample amounts of time on social media, staying up late mindlessly scrolling through their phones. There are simple but perhaps difficult changes to be made here.
The mushrooms fixed him for 2 or so months. During that time he should have woken up and sorted his life out. Thats enough time to start exercising, having the conversations at home and work.
You dont have to solve everything all at once, but fixing depression is a cumulative process where even small changes in diet, exercise and environment will compound over time and put you in a better place.
The mushrooms will show you the answer, but it's up to the individual to act.
Did you notice in his post he didn't describe what happened when he was cured in those two months? No, straight back to finger pointing and blaming everyone else.
He needs to hear the blunt truth : maybe, just maybe, it's his fault. Then he can take more mushrooms and work on fixing it, rather than expecting them to be a magic bullet.
It's amazing how many people casually bring up the wonders of talk therapy without noting any of the confounding factors the patient must watch for while they pay out the nose for therapy that may end up having detrimental effects. An average or worse therapist for anything but textbook cases are liable to cause more harm than good.
Most Americans are scraping by with medical, addiction, or mental issues on top of being underpaid, under educated, overworked, and priced out of necessary services like mental/health/child care, housing, and transportation.
It's no wonder so many articles and studies bemoan the current state of affairs.
If anything I think part of the value of seeking out mental healthcare is symbolic. I.E. it's so difficult and costly you convince yourself that you must really want to get better, can work hard, and that something so burdensome must work or nobody would bother with it (a sort of placebo effect). Yet it's easy to get jaded and easy to find yourself going through some ineffectual therapy at great personal cost.
I also think that people are really hung-up on two specific approaches, namely talk therapy and drugs, when they can simply not be cost-effective. It's really costly to put a specialist through years of school, and heat up those counselling offices, and all of that. If you're poor enough that money can make a HUGE impact on the diet you can afford and the exercise you can get. People seem to have this funny idea that somebody living an impoverished miserable life will be happy if somebody says some kind words to them and drugs are altering their neurotransmitter levels.
I see what you mean and you're certainly right for a segment of the population that seems to get caught on the high without much skepticism of it.
That said, it is in not bullshit, and its not bullshit precisely because of what cite as being the bullshit: People take it and get the same benefit as going on a multi-week vacation. At least that can happen. Given you report your own experimentation, I'm curious if you mean psychedelics as a whole or specifically psilocybin? I'm curious of this because while I have experienced significant change in my worldview as a result of LSD trips, I had none of the same from shrooms. They're fun for sure, but I felt the next day the same I would if I spent the same time smoking cannabis. Family members of mine also have had shrooms and similarly found little to no productive value in them, but have found value in LSD. The temptation to suspect a genetic link is obvious, but of course thats just my n=1. When on LSD I tried a sort of self-therapy that seemed extremely successful, thinking through issues and considering new narratives of worldview. I've also had LSD trips where I didn't attempt such self-therapy, and found that I woke the next day feeling no different. I also tried self-therapy on shrooms and thought it was working during the trip, but woke up feeling just the same as before. So I think methodical thought through whatever is making the person feel depressed is absolutely necessary if any success is to be expected.
I suspect that many of the people who have gotten the best of the benefits of psychedelics and led successful lives are just not so vocal about it. I feel LSD has majorly helped me, but I'm really not about to go preaching that, because while it helped, it wasn't the only component. I also made the choices to use what I learned on it and change how I behave.
Think of how many people are on SSRIs that have mixed effectiveness, side-effects, and have to be taken daily. Then compare that with a treatment that you do once a month and whose main side-effect is a heightened sense of empathy. Even if it doesn't permanently get rid of depression and anxiety, and solve all of your underlying problems it's still a big step forward relative to the current state-of-the-art treatments.
I can speak to how nice it is to just feel fine for a while and get some respite from a constant feeling of fear and anxiety at everything. It's a world of difference, and could easily be the difference between someone not even being able to get out of bed, and actually taking a crack at doing things.
Second if we are talking recreationally I have met many, many people on a third path there: the understanding that psychedelics offer a beautiful alternate window with which to perceive things and they can tend to have a heightened awareness and appreciation while otherwise being just like many in that they answer slack messages or [insert mundane work task here].
Thirdly the mind in question is more important than psychedelics or slack messages. One can view either as a hellish prison or a wonderful gift, and in either case this perspective is likely to prove itself out. There is no magic cure to gift inner peace, nor is inner peace at all waking hours a realistic or worthwhile goal for anyone. This does not make psychedelics "bullshit," it means you need more to cultivate a rich inner life than a few altered state experiences. This should not be surprising (though to be sure it is quite often).
Fourthly, when you say:
> Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life.
Have you asked these people how they came to their better life there, their job without a 9pm slack message, their healthy marriage, healthy lifestyle, etc? Many would likely attribute at least part of this found balance to their experience with psychedelics. Many people in these trials, a majority in fact, count these experiences among their top 5 most profound life experiences. That's astounding, and anecdotally I've met many more who fit that bill, and of course there are other famous cases who parrot this like Steve Jobs. Psychedelics are not an answer, but they often do illuminate where paths were previously hidden.
I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions.
I think his cynicism is completely warranted considering how many people are starting to view psychedelics as a panacea.
Do psychedelics offer an experience that could be part of, or even a spark a greater shift? Sure.
Could psychedelics provide temporary relief from things like depression and anxiety? Sure.
Do most people approach things that are talked about as a solution to life's most difficult problems in a moderate way? Very rarely.
Are there VERY REAL and SIGNIFICANT downsides to the misuse of psychedelics? Absolutely. Bad trips are very real and with real, long-term consequences.
From my experience with these substances and from my observations of many people who have also used them, I think we should approach the subject from a cautious point of view at the very least. We can throw around studies all we want, but as you pointed out, these are almost all done in a CLINICAL SETTING which is probably the most relevant aspect to the outcome of psychedelic experiences.
That's why they are trying to turn it into therapy instead of advising sick people to experiment wildly.
They know there's an effect, now they know it's safe. What's left to establish is what's the most efficient protocol for using it.
Fourth path: You learn what you need from it, that the world is just various inputs into your brain and gives you perspective to slow down.
As an aside, your post is full of negativity. I hope you get the help you need somewhere.
I sleep well, eat well, exercise, occasionally micro-dose, and if my brain gets in a really bad place I’ll do a huge reset trip. I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I’m the happiest I’ve ever been.
Temet Nosce - Know Thyself
Mushrooms won't fix your life. But even your anecdote suggests that they can provide a brief window of clarity. In that window, you can choose to make changes in your life, but making big changes is risky and typically quite difficult. But for folks with clinical depression, these treatments might be a game changer.
I was just listening to an interview[1] with Dennis McKenna[2] (brother of Terence McKenna[3]) in which he said:
"If I'm going to take it [a psychedelic substance] I'm going to pay attention to it. It's sort of like you have an opportunity to sit with someone who's very wise and they have stuff to tell you and so they deserve that respect. That's what's changed. I give it my respect.
"And sometimes people say, well, you've been doing this 50 years haven't you got the lesson yet? .. there's one perspective that says 'once you get the message hang up the phone'.
"Well, maybe I'm a slow learner but I'm still learning from these things. They're not like an answering machine. It's not like there's only one message.
"It's like if you had a mentor, a teacher, someone who you respect you're not going to reach a point where you say, 'well, basically I've learned everything you have to tell me so thank you very much and I'll be on my way.' Chances are they still know more and they always will know more than you will know.
"Every time I take ayahuasca or mushrooms I learn something new or I am reminded of what I've forgotten, what's easy to forget in the day-to-day hustle of life. I just feel it's still valuable. In some ways it's a touchstone. It's a way of getting back to that place, that sacred space, sacred time environment where you can remind yourself of the eternal truths."
Second counter-anecdote:
Ram Dass[4], in his 80's after suffering a stroke, when asked in an interview that I can't find at the moment about what LSD has done for him replied "I'm happy. I've had a stroke and I'm happy. That's LSD."
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYm5OdvwNs
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_McKenna
I want to echo the sentiment of the OP - I have yet to meet someone who does not go down one of the two paths described. Either they continue to do various psychedelic substances over the years claiming to have solved all their problems while a cursory examination shows their lives continue to be a mess.... or they stop looking at it as a panacea and start making meaningful changes in their lives that actually have a long-term positive impact (this is my own experience).
I don't have a problem with using psychedelics IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY for short term relief from symptoms of a greater issue that actually requires concrete, meaningful action to address. Maybe the relief, from depression for example, is enough to find the motivation to take those actions. HOWEVER - most people tend to be very black and white in their thinking and don't see it as treating a symptom - they see it as a solution to all their problems. You see it over and over again with various approaches - fasting, keto and psychedelics being the current fads.
There is no panacea for living a healthy, fulfilling life. It takes conscious, persistent shifts on many different levels. There is no cure-all. There never has been, and never will be.
>[trip compared to] a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two
I think these two are confusing statements if read together. That being said, I think I understand what you mean.
From the info I’ve gathered, almost everybody agrees with you. It’s not a magic cure. Sure, someone might argue it is but you’ll find that person everywhere. But for someone with severe depression who can’t see beyond the wall could be really valuable experience, since otherwise couldn’t go (or even afford) going on a very intense vacation in a foreign country.
Sometimes you may need clarity to deal with the problems that otherwise depression wouldn’t let you (or wouldn’t even let you see them). But I guess (because I haven’t tried this, but read a lot) it’s all about the mindset you approach this.
I read a lot of experiences from people who went down both the paths you're talking about so I just avoided them. Rather than not using and considering it inevitable that for years I would be using psychadelics in a degenerate way. I approached them with the mindset that they are a tool to look at problems from a different perspective and accelerate certain forms of thinking. However this tool, independant of actual self-improvement, was not only useless but self-destructive.
I ended up having subjectively worse mental health after the psychadelics. Although the psychadelics were a desperation attempt in the first place so take this with a grain of salt. At the same time my life OBJECTIVELY became much better. Better diet, more exercise, more social life, stronger, more cash, all that jazz. I basically turned around a situation where I was completely trapped in poverty and despair to one where by a good number of measures I was pretty successful. So I do find it interesting to read about how people who take psychadelics are all deluded into thinking they're doing well when they're doing awfully. Since that's precisely the opposite of what I experienced.
I drank a beer 20 years ago and now BAM, cancer. We should ban all this cancer causing beer.
I did have some luck using mild amounts to combat the negative cognitive effects of smoking too much pot(mostly verbal deficiencies), but in the end it was better to just stop smoking pot.
I'm glad we're finally discussing the potential of psychedelics. I think they will help researchers understand what makes us who we are. I know we're better off not locking people up for using or possessing these substances. I do not think that the personal use of these drugs will notably advance society however.
That should tell you about the true nature of your motivation.
If you are only productive when you are unhappy, it likely means that you are trying to motivate yourself with negative thoughts and judging and compulsive feelings, it means you do productive things while using a stick to constantly keep yourself in fear of hitting yourself with it if you're not productive. If anything, this is the message the mushrooms are trying to tell you. But it is still up to you to change your patterns in response to that message.
"Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life."
Perhaps this period of self examination is what leads so many to such similar conclusions?
There is also of course also doing them for the pure enjoyment of them. For example, I’d wager many people would prefer a psychedelic experience over being drunk. Much in the same way that people may prefer marijuana over alcohol.
I like to think of it as a tool that helps you get out of writers block. You still have to write once you’re unblocked; it won’t be able to write for you.
Second, you're talking about curing the disease and I agree with you 100%. I don't like or promote psychedelics but from what I understand they are in this context to be seen as solutions to symptoms much like antidepressants and pain killers where they merely give you enough breathing room to where you can focus on fixing the root cause instead of chasing after ways to alleviate symptoms.
The rest is up to you, whether it's the third path, fourth path, or the umpteenth path.
The affects on one's emotional state is surprising. Probably a good thing, but to me secondary.
Why you would suggest the gym (repetitive activity with a load of other sweaty people) is beyond me...
- I never thought it would cure my depression, but then again I have never seen my depression as something to be cured. It has helped me understand that my depression is a reasonable consequence of how I live my life and it also made me understand what choices I would have to make to change it.
- It never made me feel like my life is full of meaning - it actually showed me how the lack of meaning in my life is related to my depression. It also helped me understand the complexity of meaning and made it clear to me what would be needed to have a meaningful life.
- Psychedelics has not made me worse at my job, it has not caused me to spiral, it has not driven me to other drugs.
The experiences I have never once made me want to grow my hair, nor go to festivals, nor talk of energy and chi and chakras - and in general I avoid taking it with or close to other people. I don't now how you got to that at all really but I think it was bad influences in your life more than the psychedelics.
If anything my psychedelic journey has made me maybe more conservative than I used to be and I am less likely to believe in any kind of woo like chi and chakras than I was before I took it.
I would not really recommend anybody take LSD or psychedelics - but I think it have had a very positive influence on my life and if anything I regret not taking it more often.
Also became increasingly atheist & materialist after a few times. Don’t move the mental furniture around if you’re already content with the brain-room, I’d say.
Here's what happens.
First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two. You swear that when you come back things will be different, but then you have to answer slack messages at 9pm, and your project is slipping at work, and your wife is flirting with strangers every time you go to a bar, and well... in a month or two you're back to feeling exactly the same way you did before (until you take the next vacation).
Second, people who discover psychedelics go on a multiyear quest for enlightenment. They keep taking various drugs, keep feeling like they understand things better and better, get sucked into the psychedelic social vortex of other truth-seekers, and generally believe that their life is full of meaning and is going to turn around at any moment. Except by any objective measure they're still nervous wrecks-- they have every physiological symptom of stress and depression, and aside from temporary alleviation of their symptoms (see part one), they always regress to the mean.
Third, after a few years of this people eventually reach a fork. Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life.
A small minority of people double down, grow out their (usually grey by then) hair down to their shoulders, go to festivals and workshops, talk of energy and chi and chakras, stare into the eyes of strangers, and touch each other's faces.
Generally speaking, I haven't run into anyone yet who found a third path. So, while I'd be the first to admit I'm wrong and celebrate if this proves to actually work, if I were a betting man I'd bet against at any reasonable odds and sleep secure in the knowledge that my money is safe.