News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by kgwxd on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:26PM (#21694403)
Why companies don't just continue to manufacture screen-only TV's baffles me. I'd love to see some existing privacy-oriented company that already has to deal with screen manufactures start selling "privacy-oriented TVs".
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by cameldrv on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:30PM (#21694458)
Ultimately, few people understand that this is a problem or that they should want a dumb TV. The manufacturers make money from the smart features by selling the data and by getting a cut of subscription revenue, so smart TVs can be sold cheaper than dumb TVs.

The FBI issuing a warning about this is helpful. It may help create a market for dumb TVs that cost more than smart TVs.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by miej on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:14PM (#21694917)
so is the fbi just reporting on the cia now? I mean, Project Weeping Angel is pretty well-known by now, right?

ref: https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_12353643.html

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by magduf on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @10:53AM (#21703203)
>The manufacturers make money from the smart features by selling the data and by getting a cut of subscription revenue, so smart TVs can be sold cheaper than dumb TVs.

Yeah, this is like how a laptop can be sold cheaper with Windows OS than with Linux: the Windows version is preloaded with a ton of crapware that the mfgr gets paid to preload, so even with the enormous (as a fraction of BOM) price of the Windows license, the laptop comes out cheaper.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by kgwxd on Sunday December 08, 2019 @01:54PM (#21737469)
Make a deal to bundle Roku sticks with the TV to reduce the cost maybe?
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by markstos on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:58PM (#21695381)
I understand, but recall seeing literally zero "dumb" TV options at Best Buy at the size I was looking for.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by infinite8s on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @04:09PM (#21696725)
Because who is going to buy a more expensive dumb TV? I just buy the smart TV and don't connect it to wifi.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by magduf on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @10:53AM (#21703214)
That works if your TV allows that. I'm pretty sure I've read that some models simply won't work if they don't have internet access.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by MisterTea on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:07PM (#21695480)
I opened a more modern cheap smart TV. Inside were three boards: Power supply & backlight inverter, LCD/LVDS(?) interface board, CPU & video IO board. I'm not sure if the screen interface was actual LVDS but it sure looked like it.

So a smart TV is nothing more than an LCD with Arm SoC. Of course that SoC it's completely locked down and there are no specs outside of NDA's.

It got me thinking, how hard would it be to go to a big manufacturer that makes these smart TV's for chains like best buy and contract them to make the same set without the proprietary garbage hardware board? Instead a board built around an open SoC and software ecosystem is installed so the ethernet and USB ports do what they're supposed to do. That or pick a very common TV model, figure out the LCD interface and build a retrofit board. All of this is easier said than done.

Then imagine how fun it would be to hack your TV to do whatever because it's a regular computer? Of course the big issue that stands in the way is the HDMI and DRM burdens.

(cue someone replying with: just don't connect the smart TV to the internet and hook up a raspberry pi.)

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by magduf on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @10:55AM (#21703230)
>I opened a more modern cheap smart TV. Inside were three boards: Power supply & backlight inverter,

How "modern" was this TV? Don't they all use LED backlights now? Backlight inverters should be obsolete now.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by MisterTea on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @11:26AM (#21703548)
It was about 3 years old at the time. And I believe it was an LED backlight so I should have said regulator or perhaps driver instead of inverter but close enough.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by blihp on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:31PM (#21695104)
If you're a manufacturer are you going to go after the 95-99% of the market that wants a set that's cheaper due to the bundled spyware or the 1-5% that are willing to pay a premium not to include it? Granted, I'm guessing as to the percentages... but I doubt I'm that far off.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by some-guy on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:27PM (#21694415)
They exist, they're called "commercial displays", and they're quite expensive.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by DoofusOfDeath on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:33PM (#21694478)
What explains the large price premium of commercial displays?

Is it just that they're low-volume SKUs? Or are the somewhat more ruggedized than consumer models?

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by msbarnett on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:37PM (#21694533)
Partly construction, partly that the target market simply is willing to pay more, and partly that the cost of consumer sets are subsidized by some of the third-part analytics software that comes preinstalled in order to collect and sell information on what people are watching.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by justwalt on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:29PM (#21695083)
I imagine part of it would be that the displays are assumed to be run almost nonstop.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by chipperyman573 on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:34PM (#21694502)
The fact that the cost isn't subsidized by the tracking and advertising provided by the smart tv

(I have no evidence for this but I've seen this comment posted many times before)

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by msbarnett on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @06:50PM (#21708427)
Here's the evidence for it, by the way. Straight from an interview with the CTO of Vizio: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit...

It goes into how running content recognizition software against whatever's on the TV display lets them collect and aggregate data to sell, which helps them sell the TV for very low prices without having to worry about being profitable on the initial sale thanks to data and other monetization streams. Sony, Samsung, and the other major TV players all run very similar Automatic Content Recognition systems.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by dawnerd on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:42PM (#21694583)
Bingo! Those Roku / FireTV / Netflix / Amazon/ Etc logos on the boxes don't pay for themselves.

Although what's insulting is when the super premium tvs that STILL include all the same tracking junk. A 3k dollar+ tv shouldn't need any subsidizing at all, yet here we are.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by jankiehodgpodge on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @03:51AM (#21700653)
Because they're designed for 24 hour, 7 days a week use. Components like power supplies will be far higher quality.

Many of them have integrated signage software too like MagicInfo and have video wall capabilities etc.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by meristem on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:36PM (#21695813)
Commercial displays are the first class airplane tickets of the display/TV market.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by shok3001 on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @05:57PM (#21697775)
Are there any drawbacks to using one for home use?
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by sliken on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @08:56PM (#21698945)
Dramatically more expensive.

When I looked a larger high end 4K consumer TV was cheaper than a smaller 1080P commercial display.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by smolder on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:55PM (#21694726)
I bought a cheap 42" 4k dumb tv made by an off brand which is no longer available anywhere, one of the only ones that I could find without network connectivity, but it's by no means a great TV in other respects. I think if I used it heavily it'd have burnt out a capacitor by now or something. Reviews indicate they are not too reliable.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by hart_russell on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:23PM (#21695667)
My dad just bought a cheap "Sceptre" brand TV that's 4k and as dumb as can be
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by paulmd on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:05PM (#21695451)
screen-only TVs are undesirable because content providers like Netflix gate their content to locked-down devices that present a lower risk of piracy.

Unless you run Netflix in MS Edge (or the netflix windows store app, which wraps MS Edge) and use a Skylake or newer CPU with a secure enclave / AMD PSP, Netflix won't stream you their highest-quality content.

Or they will happily deliver it to whatever Android device or smart TV that you like.

(also, PC support for HDR content is... "lacking", shall we say)

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by rchaud on Wednesday December 04, 2019 @11:05AM (#21703329)
Because TVs are commodity hardware that makes exactly $0 the second after it's sold. We now live in a business hellscape where "recurring revenue" is everything. Since TVs still last for 5 years or more, they might as well start selling off your viewing data to make the quarterly numbers look better.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by thrownblown on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:55PM (#21694724)
They can make more money off smart tvs by selling advertising profile info from things like the TV shows watched. Thats why.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by loa_in_ on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:01PM (#21694788)
And that makes TVs cheaper a little bit than lobotomized not monetised alternatives. Users don't see the hidden cost when looking at two TVs with same specs but slightly different prices.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by guelo on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @12:57PM (#21694742)
I suspect that the advertising industry is offering the TV manufacturers incentives to add tracking "smarts". The dream of tracking TV ad views and even personalized TV ads is worth billions.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by notyourday on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:10PM (#21695526)
Cut the Wifi antennas and shield connection points in the module.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by egdod on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:55PM (#21695344)
TVs are only as cheap as they are because the cost is subsidized by the data they collect. A dumb TV would be more expensive to buy, and most people would balk at that.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by amelius on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:06PM (#21694848)
> I'd love to see some existing privacy-oriented company that already has to deal with screen manufactures start selling "privacy-oriented TVs".

Apple TV?

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by choward on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:27PM (#21695055)
Not a TV. And what makes Apple privacy oriented? Because their marketing department says they are? Unless a company's business model is actually privacy, I won't believe for a second they value privacy. Even then I would still be skeptical. Companies can always increase profit by secretly getting rid of privacy.
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by bashinator on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @02:55PM (#21696037)
> And what makes Apple privacy oriented?

The fact that they're not an advertising company? That their business model doesn't depend on monetizing your personal data? That being privacy-oriented is a distinguishing factor compared with their competition?

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by paulie_a on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:18PM (#21694965)
Apple doesn't make TV's the previous post was referring to dumb TV's
Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by tzs on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @01:35PM (#21695144)
Besides the nefarious reasons they might not want to make dumb TVs, there are some decent reasons.

Most TVs include speakers. Even the non-smart ones. By adding networking and apps, that TV can be used stand-alone.

For people starting out with their first home theater setup, they can get started with just the TV. With a dumb TV, they'd need the TV, and a receiver/speakers setup or a soundbar, and something to provide content like a Blu-ray player or cable box or Roku.

By making the TV smart, the TV maker has a better chance of having people start out with a higher end stand-alone TV and then adding other components later. I presume that the TV maker would rather have the consumer spend all of their initial budget on the TV, instead of splitting it between TV, receiver, and Blu-ray player.

For people with existing home theater setups, a similar thing goes on with upgrades. For example, I have a Denon AVR-1913 receiver, a Comcast X1 DVR, and a Sony Blu-ray player, and a Samsung TV.

It was a smart TV but I never used it as anything other than a dumb monitor. I used apps, not but on the TV. The Blu-ray player had a full set of streaming apps, and so does the X1. The Denon receiver has an internet radio app, and also supports Spotify Connect, and supports Airplay. So there was never any need to use an app on the TV. (Also, when I tried it once out of curiosity I could not get ARC to work to send sound back to the Denon receiver).

But then the TV died. I ended up getting another Samsung, but this new one is 4K UHD.

None of my other components are 4K. I didn't want to upgrade the rest to 4K at that time, so for things I wanted to watch in 4K I used apps on the TV [1].

With dumb TVs, I probably would not have bought a 4K TV. I would have waited until my other components were 4K, and that could have taken quite a while. I tend to keep receivers until they die.

In summary, with smart TVs, the TV can meet the needs of a wider class of consumer. As long as they don't make it so you have to give the TV network access or use its smart features, it can meet the needs of almost every class of consumer. That's attractive to the manufacturers.

[1] ...which meant that I did need to figure out ARC. As with the old Samsung, it just did not seem to want to work. Then I noticed something in the Denon manual:

> When the ARC function is used, connect a device with a "Standard HDMI cable with Ethernet" or "High Speed HDMI cable with Ethernet" for HDMI.

I made sure to use such a cable...and it worked, which makes no sense. It would make sense if we were talking eARC, but with plain ARC--which is all my 6 or 7 years old Denon supports--it should work with any regular old HDMI cable.

Re:FBI warns that connected televisions can provide hackers ... by wmf on Tuesday December 03, 2019 @03:50PM (#21696567)
Back in the old days dumb TVs had speakers so you could just connect a box directly with HDMI.