Great, will they be offering free trade-ins? These are $2000 computers that have a major broken component. Not to mention, the second a computer comes on sale that doesn't have this issue, the resale value of the current MacBooks will be disproportionately affected compared to previous revisions. So a nice double whammy: a miserable experience during its use, and an unusually small resale value afterwards.

You think the company that makes you buy an extra 'fuck you' dongle to plug in your brand new phone into your brand new computer will let you trade up?

Sorry if you already bought the lemon model. I'd sell before the new one drops to take less of a hit if I were in your shoes.

Don't forget makes you buy a monitor stand separately for that few thousand dollar monitor

Meh. That’s an incredibly high end reference monitor targeted at a niche set of high end video producers that already overwhelmingly prefer to rack mount their reference monitors.

Most of the target market doesn’t need or want that stand.

Most of the should-be-targeted market just wants a $1500 retina display.

LG sells a perfectly good one for $1299 that Apple also sells in their stores. They are very good displays.

I find their asymmetry to be ugly and visually distracting: there's no excuse for the "chin" on the top of the monitor - I'm surprised Apple OK'd the design at all - and just-as-surprised that they didn't equal-out the bottom bezel of the display in the new 2019 revision just to make it seem balanced.

Also, the fact it's a single-input monitor without HDMI input is a deal-killer for me: multiple-input monitors are fantastic when you have multiple machines on your desk and alternate between them based on the current job (e.g. laptop in docking station, Mac Mini for Safari + iOS testing, main desktop, dangling HDMI cable for connecting to tablets and phones).

No, they are not. As an owner of LG OLED TV, I know it for sure.

LOL, dear downvoters, tell me more about my TV, muhaha.

I have an LG tv and have no problems, but not regarding that, Apple uses LG displays on their macbooks and ipads (not sure about the 5k imac). This is probably why you are being downvoted.

And I have LG TV and have problem, so what, lol? "I don't want to believe they can be bad"? Muhaha!

At least try to google first how many people have issues with LG monitors.

A not insignificant number of fans will buy it anyway.

I get it's an easy target to make fun of, and it's probably over-priced, but the concept of a separate stand is not entirely unreasonable (especially as many "pros" already have stands they like). At least they're offering a VESA adapter, though it's stupid to charge $200 for it.

Nah, they give you a $1000 discount on the monitor if you already own a stand.

"makes you"

huh..

You plug your phone into your computer?

~~Deploying and debugging iOS apps is still not available via wi-fi I believe.~~ Edit: added xcode 9.

Yes it is

You have to plug it in once to enable this, so you still need a dongle or cable.

I'm all aboard the USB-C train though, if only Apple would switch the rest of their lightning stuff over.

Since that's not happening, here's hoping that this year's iPhones finally ship with a USB-C charger and USB-C to Lightning cable in the box.

As a sometime mac diehard (iOS & Mac developer, ObjC enthusiast), I find it a little hard to imagine how anyone could continue paying through the nose for Apple's dreadful hardware at this point. A reasonable platform conservatism did encourage me to consider another mac when my 2013 MB Pro outlived its usefulness, but only briefly.

Shame. Last time I used it (early 2018) I still found OS X to be have the best overall balance of good to bad things (no current OS is exactly 'good'). But the hardware is a complete deal-breaker.

The software is becoming a deal-breaker as well. Every upgrade seems to break things to the point that I don't even upgrade anymore.

I've also felt that window management is better in Windows than in OS X. Multitasking feels faster and more intuitive on Windows 10.

Fair enough - I'm a bit out of touch with current OS X. Windows has some pluses but lots of downsides too. Same for Linux. They're all an unhappy compromise from my perspective. I've reached a stage of frustration with the dreadful desktop OS scene that I now invest as little as possible in any of them. I keep my data portable, use x-platform apps as much as I can, and generally keep the OS, as far as I'm able, to be just a file store and app launcher.

Mine is less than 6 months old and already at least 3 keys are malfunctioning. The Apple rep reckoned I would be without my machine for at least 3 days - and that is unacceptable as I need it for my work. In the end I bought an external keyboard.

They don't need to offer free trade-in. When the new machine is available I will buy it. Then return this broken one for a full refund. And there are literally half a dozen laws in the UK that entitle me to do so.

I usually use my Macs until I feel an upgrade is worth it (I can sometimes get five years out one), and then upgrade and give the old one away to someone who could use it. The cost for me is really that I'm not going to want to keep my current MBP (bought at the end of 2017) for as long as I usually would, just because they keyboard sucks.

I absolutely agree, they should offer a significant discount to people trading them back in to get a replacement model.

To be fair they are offering free keyboard replacement.

And they replace it with a keyboard with the same design flaws. I have replaced mine several times now and am left without a computer for a week every time.

I'm hoping t get Hackintosh running on a lenovo yoga so I can replace my keyboard one last time and sell the POS.

Don't. I've made the mistake of building a hackintosh out of 'Golden Build' list of seemingly issue-less components and it's a world of hurt. Every now and then something doesn't work (BT, Wi-Fi, GPU, random OS freezes) and there's no real way to fix it, the usual advice is to replace component and/or reinstall the OS. I've wasted so much time on it, that if I'd know it in advance, I wouldn't do it. You've been warned.

And it takes anywhere from <unreasonably long> to <forever> to get it replaced because they basically have to replace the entire laptop just to replace the keyboard.

And the times are worse outside the US.

This is a company that renders many of its perfectly working phones and tablets virtually worthless via centralized cloud account locking that is easily forgotten and left on. I doubt they care about resale value.

That’s a great anti-theft feature actually

When you reset an iPhone or iPad it always prompts you for the iCloud password to remove the lock. eBay also gives you the same reminder. The only way you're selling iCloud locked devices is if you're usually too lazy to reset or it's a stolen device. (Though other situations happen - I recently sold some iPhones for my wife's family, which belonged to someone who died of Alzheimers)

“Virtually worthless [to thieves but not the rightful owner.]”

Doesn’t Google do the same?

yes they do

To me the, the worst thing with MacBook keyboards is when keys start to fade out[1]. I really hope they could do something about it

[0] https://caio.ariede.life/macbook-blurred-keys/

Isn't that an issue on all keyboards without doubleshot keycaps?

These problems don't exist on doubleshot keycaps, precisely because of the doubleshot injection.

In this case these aren't double shot, they are single shot that is painted/dyed and then has the lettering laser-etched out of the paint/dye.

Oops, I meant to say non-double shot

God, I hate this. 2018 MacBook Pro, had it less than a year, already getting patches like that on some keys.

I can't believe they aren't double-shot. Or just color the whole thing, like Nintendo did with its switch buttons. Lettering and all, so it never rubs off. That would be the kind of quality I'd expect to see for the price of an apple lap top computer.

Huh, left Cmd button on my MBP 2018 has the same issue. Also double t’s. Also sometimes not working left Shift unless you press it harder. Also partially not working Touch Bar (about an inch of it has turned black and doesn’t display anything).

My command Key had this after a couple of years on my MBP took it in to the apple store while I was getting my phone fixed, they just stuck in a new key. I believe they have a key board replacement program if your keys are sticking - something I'll probably avail myself of, I have a few keys that don't work sometimes.

I really wish this was the top comment. I feel like HN is turning a little too much into an echo chamber dunk fest sometimes.

Also, just to throw another opinion into this dumpster fire:

I had to get a new laptop, knew I was getting a 2019 MBP, and was terrified the keyboard experience would be horrendous due to the coverage I see on the topic here.

And it isn't at all. It feels different than my 2015 model, but... definitely not worse. I may even be just slightly better because it's noticeably quieter.

Just one perspective, but yeah. The keyboard rage on here should not be taken as anything approaching absolute truth.

I agree, the keyboard is fine, until it stops working properly. Apparently, the problems described in the article are not rare occurrences. That, and also the keys which start to fade out (see some other comments). I have both problems on my 2018 MBP.

I think the keyboard rage comes from the fact that they changed a perfectly fine keyboard with a bogus one, just to have a slightly slimmer laptop (along with many other gimmicks such as the touchbar, or the oversized trackpad).

Indeed. I switched to a 2017 MBP and thought the keyboard was honestly fine, until after a while the keys gradually started chattering and eventually just outright not working.

The vast majority of impressions I've seen are about how the keyboard mistypes or breaks. It's not necessarily about it feeling worse - it is worse in aspects that don't directly related to how it feels to type on it. The keyboard rage is entirely justified if such an expensive device has keyboard problems that are unsolvable. It's really not helpful to dismiss the issues and people's opinions just because you happen to think typing on the keyboard is fine, no idea what anybody is complaining about, everybody is exaggerating and out of their minds.

Quieter? You must have softest typing finger touch imaginable. Every person I see use it is dramatically louder than the old style.

When it works, it’s fine. I’ve had a 2018 MBP for a year and apparently didn’t draw the short stick. The travel distance ceased to be a problem after the first week, and I don’t think about the keyboard day to day.

That said, even in my ideal, happy-path case, there’s one minor flaw I do occasionally run up against, which I rarely see mentioned: the keys are too close together. It’s easier – not greatly so, but perceptibly – to hit adjacent keys. There’s no question in my mind that going back to the old keyboard will be an improvement across the board, even for those who haven’t had any of the marquee issues.

Except not breaking does not a good keyboard make. It still is very bad, no travel, no resistance, feels like a kids' toy. Make something solid and durable for once, apple.

The 2019 model is better than 2018. They fixed several keyboard issues. (duplicate keys, jamming, etc).

2019 model did not fix anything.

Same here. I just got a 2019 MBP to replace my 2014. I type without looking and I find the keyboard very pleasant (I love the soft click feel and sound). Now I can’t say for the durability but first impression is very good.

I don't think most of the comments are directed at the 2019 model. Most even specify an earlier (2018) model. These have known issues. So I think that is "approaching absolute truth".

I liked my 2019 MBP keyboard too. Until one week I noticed it kept repeating e's and n's. And then I learnt its not fixable unless you are prepared to go without a machine for 3 to 14 days. And then I learnt from Rossman Youtube that your machine might never be the same again after Apple's "genius"'s get their hands on.

Honestly, I thought it was all a fuss about nothing. But it isn't. BTW my machine is 6 months old. It started malfunctioning 2 months ago.

Had the same with my work MBP. Started about 6 weeks into using it, went to the Apple Store and got told it would take at least 14 days. Asked them for an exchange device so I could keep working and they almost laughed at me.

I bought mine on an American Express credit card which, in the UK, has what's known as "Section 75" protection. This alone means I can return it for a full refund since it is a defective product within the warranty period with documented design flaws. If Apple refuse to issue the refund, then Amex will do it for them. Obviously it will need persistence and a bit of a fight - but the law is 100% on my side.

If your machine is 6 months old, you have a 2018 MBP keyboard. The 2019 keyboard came out 4 months ago.

That is true. I did not realise this, so thanks. Indeed it says mine is a 2018 model in the "About this Mac" screen.

All this time I thought I had a 2019 model because I ordered it in 2019 and it came direct from the factory in China (not from existing stock).

I have a 2019 (I think) model and I really enjoy the typing experience.

I don’t think I agree that it’s better than the old keyboard, and it certainly feels a bit icky to type on, but...

There are much worse keyboards.

Cut us some slack, we're all spending _all_ our time on shit keyboards.

Speak for yourself. (Typed on an IBM Model-M keyboard)

Not quite on that level (Cherry mx), but I have to concur. If you're not always on the go a proper keyboard is worth the investment.

Yup, it baffles me how many people who earn their money writing code seem to either be content with crappy laptop keyboards or shy away from investing a few hours’ salary in a decent keyboard that they’ll be using for tens of thousands of hours.

The Cherry G80 with blue switches (I believe) I shortly used at a startup gig last year actually was at Model M level, sans the typing noise/headache. Saying this as someone who actually used Model M keyboards in 1991-3 on PS/2 50 and 80 PCs.

Especially because working with just a laptop is horrible ergonomically.

Still using a 2011 ThinkPad precisely because of the keyboard.

Me too. The laptop is an inch thick, and _I love it_.

We need a revival of bauhaus design - no distinction between form and function. If it falls short at its function, it fails as a form, and should not be accepted.

I used an Apple "ergo" keyboard in the early 90s. Had several of them, they all failed with dead keys and unintended multiple keystrokes within six months. The more things change . . .

The Microsoft Ergo Keyboard, the first one released in 1995 or so, was well nigh perfect (well, once you remapped capslock to something useful, which you could do in software, or in hardware with a little gumption and some conductive paint). Probably saved my career. Then the quality of Microsoft keyboards went to hell as they cost-reduced their way to mediocrity. The more things change . . .

I use a Kinesis Gaming Keyboard now, and I think it's one of the best ergo keyboards on the market. It's programmable to a reasonable degree, has decent key feel, and I've been pounding on a couple of them pretty hard since they were released 2+ years ago without experiencing any issues. I think Kinesis has a clue, but that doesn't mean they won't change . . .

The Keyboardio keyboard has an interesting design and great build quality, but I'm too damned old to retrain, and it requires significant effort to reach a decent typing rate. I'm not up to it. I'd be very interested in buying a more traditional split keyboard from the Keyboardio team if they ever decide to build one. There are probably 10 people at my smallish company who would buy them, too. Kaia and Jesse, if you're reading this, take my money :-)

The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard is just not quite there. The build quality is excellent and the team put an incredible amount of work into the thing, but the lack of an ESC key just kills me. "Hacking" keyboard . . . but no escape key. I just don't understand. Yes, you can remap keys, but you're going to lose something important to a shift sequence that your fingers are going to stumble on for weeks. (Yes control-[ is ESC but this is not the 1970s and I'm not typing on an ADM3A terminal any more).

One thing I'd love to see is an ergo keyboard that includes pressure and velocity information along with keystrokes. I'd like a warning from the system that I'm typing too hard, for one thing, and I'm sure the information would be useful for other purposes.

I am using an Apple wireless keyboard (~2014? model, before they changed to thin keys) and I love it. I've used a load of keyboards in my time including some very good mechanical ones, and it's my favourite.

"Shit" is in a lot of ways subjective.

Dunno. The keyboard on my T420 still works 9 years later. None of my desktop keyboards have broken in 5+ years of use, and they were incredibly cheap (10-20€). Keyboards are a solved problem. Apple just keeps inventing new ones.

Speak for yourself..

>I really wish this was the top comment.

It is now at least

I personally have reduced my participation due to said echo chamber. If you want to have comments voted there is a pretty easy formula to follow.

that's good to hear. I've been wanting to upgrade from my 2013 model, but the keyboards are so shit that I decided to wait.

Might still not buy one if they still have a Touch Bar though (and omg, touch bar was automatically made uppercase...)

Apple, I love you, but I hate you too.

I'd love it if they simply re-issued the 2013 model. I have a 2013 MacBook Pro and it has been great. Every iteration since then has been worse (keyboards, batteries, touchbar, etc).

Logic Pro is the only thing that might force me to by an inferior current model Macbook if my 2013 model croaks. I'm about to start experimenting with Ardour to see if my Logic Pro dependency can be removed.

What about if they have a touch bar but also have a hardware escape key? That's really the only thing about the touch bar Mac keyboard layout that I hate. (I don't actually mind the feel of the butterfly keys -- I'm typing on them now -- but I don't love them, either. Although if they kept this key feel, maybe just doubled the travel, and brought the reliability back in line with the older scissor switches, I'd be totally on board.)

Yeah, I could deal with the touch bar if they had a physical button for the ESC key.

Remap caps lock.

I've gone back to remapping caps lock as a control key recently, so the two hacks conflict. :) (I know there are ways to remap the caps lock key to be both, depending on whether you tap it or hold it down with another key.)

Remap control to escape!

I wish I could remap my MBP arrowkeys to grow up and be full-sized keys...

Well, you're at least halfway there with the butterfly keys, since their left and right arrow keys are full-sized and only the up and down keys are half-height! Mac laptops previously have had half-height arrow keys literally for two decades, going back to 1998's PowerBook G3.

But they're still keeping the annoying touchbar. I suppose I'm stuck with Dell laptops now.

The Touchbar and the kernel panics in BridgeOS that go with it. That's the hardest thing to swallow.

Mine does this when I use video conferencing.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/2018-macbook-pros-crash...

I found the touch bar a hindrance on my 2017 MBP. Then I read a HN comment [1] recommending Better Touch Tool [2] with GoldenChaos config [3]. I've found it quite useful since.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123

[2] https://folivora.ai/

[3] https://goldenchaos.net/goldenchaos-btt.html

Do these fix the kernel panic "BAD MAGIC" error that causes the machine to crash and restart? These are kernel panics caused by the BridgeOS, a mini-operating system that drives the TouchBar.

My problem isn't with the usability or usefulness of the TouchBar. My problem is that the mere presence of the TouchBar has created a point of failure that crashes the machine... when I'm not even using that feature!

No it does not my mistake, I replied to the wrong parent comment.

At least with Dell's on-site service, I have had two keyboards fixed for me at my desk in about about 5 minutes.

Is that anything more than a rumor yet?

Good point - but with Apple, you're never going to have any concrete information until the day a product is officially released. Rumors are as good as we can get, and 9to5mac is pretty reputable, as far as those sites go.

This is Apple, there's nothing more than rumors until the announcement.

According to macrumors the source of this rumor has been reliable.