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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:20PM (#18594963)
> Within 10 years the majority of the US federal budget will go to paying INTEREST on our debt

All the Federal Reserve has to do is buy US treasures on the open market at higher and higher prices. A premium on a bond pushes the yield lower. Yields at 0% means that the US will not be paying interest on its [new] debt. Yields at negative means that investors will be paying the US.

People and entities buying US treasury bonds is why they yield 2-ish percent right now at all, instead of say 5%.

Regarding 0% rates, the Bank of Japan has already done this with Japanese government treasuries, for a very long time

Regarding negative rates, the European Central Bank has already done this with its constituent country's government bonds, for several years. Primarily German bonds.

The US can do this with more efficacy than those economies, whenever it chooses to do so. Right now, the US Central Bank chooses to raise rates and the US Treasury continues to issue more debt at the higher rates for reasons unrelated to its budget, to be honest just because the market can bear it. The Federal Reserve chooses to have less dubious assets on its balance sheet.

Everything is done in a form of moderation, but the US has a lot of tools to deal with its debt.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by Arnt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:53AM (#18597252)
You're confusing the yield at market rates with the interest paid by the borrower. If the US were to buy treasuries at above the nominal rate, the market yield would be lowered, because the market yield is the sum to be repaid on the due date minus the purchase price, converted to percent. Neither the due date or the sum to be repaid would be affected.

I'm impressed by how high these rates are. The US 10-year bonds pay 2.9%, according to the top post in this thread. Remarkable. According to Bloomberg, the US pays interest rates like Italy, nearly ten times as high as those of Germany.

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GBTPGR10:IND https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GDBR10:IND https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/USGG10YR:IND

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by krageon on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:27AM (#18597470)
I don't understand why this is surprising. To my understanding it is the case that countries that are bad with money give you a better interest because they're a higher risk to give money to. Germany is good with money, the US is not. Therefore the US gives higher interest than Germany.

Is there a profound insight I am missing that makes this state more unusual than it seems to me right now?

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by Arnt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:02AM (#18597676)
No, just a discrepancy between numbers and attitude. The US of A is indebted almost like Italy and pays a risk premium almost like Italy, and the Americans seem to act as if it isn't a problem.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by Tsubasachan on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:33AM (#18597852)
Truth. If the United States applied for EU membership they would be denied. Too much debt, too much budget deficit.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by mcv on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:26AM (#18598118)
That wouldn't be the biggest issue. The US is too large and therefore too destabilising for the EU (this is also part of the reason for Turkey). Also, the death penalty.

It might also be an issue that the US is not democratic enough, although there are some EU members (as well as the EU itself) that aren't as democratic as they should be.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by kgwgk on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:27AM (#18598430)
And it's in the wrong continent (this is also part of the reason for Turkey).
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by RobertoG on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:34AM (#18598817)
How your theory explain Japan? Are they extraordinarily good with money?

The interest rate is chosen by the central bank, not by "the market" [1]. A different issue is who try to influence that decision [2].

[1] - http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=40250

[2] - http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=32029

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by pas on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:55AM (#18600504)
There are multiple interest rates.

The FFR (Federal Funds Rate) is the target interest rate for interbank reserve money. (The effective FFR is the average of the actual rates of those transactions between banks.)

And there's the interest rate for Treasury bonds (T-bills) determined via bond auctions.

Now, usually the Fed uses those bonds as collateral to conduct its open market operations that influence the effective FFR to keep it close to the target FFR, but the Fed does not bid on Treasury bond auctions.

Of course if the central bank intervenes and floods the market with cash (and takes assets as collateral, such as bonds) then banks are likely to turn to the Treasury and buy bonds with cash. And the real constraint is of course inflation. The ECB basically does this to keep interest rates low for Eurozone member countries.

Anyway, the central bank can do whatever it wants, but if there were too much inflation no one would want to operate a bank there, so eventually there would be no primary market for gov bonds. (That said the usual Bloomberg/FT/Reuters cries are laughable about how bad poor banks have it with near zero rates.)

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:27PM (#18602848)
the truth is that their theory is totally wrong, and has a whole crowd of people in this thread trying to extrapolate on top of it.

these particular bond yields are not a reflection of "how good a country is with money", this is only a discussion in developing nations and their yields are already 8-20%

so this whole discussion is moot.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by Arnt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:34AM (#18600285)
That wasn't my phrasing... but isn't Japan's debt mostly bought by Japanese? https://www.statista.com/statistics/756192/japanese-governme... lists foreigners as holding 5%. From the Japanese point of view, Japanese bonds are extraordinary in that they carry no currency risk.

(Does the central bank usually set the interest rate? Why do lenders accept that decision?)

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by RobertoG on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:17AM (#18600745)
When you say that Japan's debt is mostly bought by Japanese it sounds like it's a particularity of the Japanese people. That's not the case.

Who is buying that debt is really the Central Bank of Japan, so, it's really a political decision.

Yes, the central bank have a target interest rate and operate to keep it inside their chosen parameters.

Lenders accept that decision because they have not other option.

From http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=40937 :

"That is what the Japanese experience since the early 1990s tells us. And all the stories about special cases; cultural peculiarities, closed markets, etc that the mainstream economists wheel out when another one of their predictions about how Japan is about to sink into the sea as a result of its public debt levels, or that interest rates are about to go through the roof because of the on-going and substantial fiscal deficits; or that inflation is about to accelerate because of the massive monetary injections; and more, are just smokescreens to divert our attention from the poverty of their analytical framework. The Japanese 10-year bond trade is called the ‘widow maker’ because hedge funds who try to short it lose big [..]"

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by kgwgk on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:25AM (#18598415)
How do you explain that the yield of the US 10y bond was 3% 5 years ago, 1.5% 2 years and a half ago, and it's 3% currently?

Did the United States "get better with money" somehow in the last years before becoming "bad with money" again?

Edit: to be clear, I do know that there are many factors (including as well inflation expectations, for example). It´s not just a question of default risk due to being bad with money.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by drjesusphd on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:00AM (#18598992)
There are many factors of the global economy that determine the market-determined yield at a given time. The only way a country being "good with money" is in comparison to the yield of other central banks at the same time.

I don't have the data, but if Germany's yield followed a similar trend down then up, but remained below the US throughout, then the hypothesis holds.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by kgwgk on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:52AM (#18600475)
For reference, German yield was around 1.5%, 0% and 0.25% on those dates (vs 3%, 1.5% and 3% for the US).
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by RobertoG on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:14AM (#18599110)
The elephant in the room in this kind of reasoning is Japan.

Japan shows that the narrative of "good country" vs. "bad country" and interest rates beyond the control of the Central Bank have little to do with reality.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by Arnt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:04AM (#18598632)
Those interest rates don't move on their own. If the competition changes, those interest rates change too.

For example, if the share outlook for the next years looks unusually good/bad volatile/stable (compared to how it looked a couple of years earlier), then that makes shares more/less attractive to investors, and bond issuers have to adjust the rates they offer.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by ric2b on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:07PM (#18603609)
> Did the United States "get better with money" somehow in the last years before becoming "bad with money" again?

Yes, the economy started to boom but then the government went and issued massive corporate tax cuts while simultaneously increasing spending by quite a bit, which means increase in deficit.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:59AM (#18600565)
> Is there a profound insight I am missing that makes this state more unusual than it seems to me right now?

EXTREMELY

The European Central Bank (ECB) has been buying sovereign and corporate debt, the entire yield curve, with new money with the purpose of making yields negative. This lowers interest rates in the eurozone.

This is its own comedy troupe that has nothing to do with the risk of the countries, especially the anything outside of the Eurozone and ESPECIALLY US monetary policy and the market's expectations of US debt.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by csense on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:26AM (#18597466)
> You're confusing the yield at market rates with the interest paid by the borrower

This is true when you're talking about trading a bond in the secondary market. But for primary sales (i.e. Treasury auctions for brand-new bonds that didn't exist before), the debtor (Treasury's) effective IR is a function of the sale price.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:36AM (#18600306)
I've never seen the perspective where you don't think European Sovereign debt yields are just too low because of European Central Bank debt purchases.

The ECB has been massively inflating the Euro by buying sovereign debt, with the express policy of pushing yields into negative territory so that people invest in riskier assets. OF COURSE that drops the yields of Italian government debt far below what the actual risk is.

This isn't an expression from the collective conscious about the US' finances. wow. or at least it HADN'T been, until now. How long have you been following the debt markets? Your perspective lacks history of anything beyond 3 years...

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by prostoalex on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:36PM (#18595570)
> All the Federal Reserve has to do is buy US treasures on the open market at higher and higher prices.

Doesn't that lead to inflation?

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jganetsk on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:40PM (#18595979)
This is a common misconception: that treasuries somehow don't lead to inflation but reserves (aka electronic cash) somehow do. Why? Both are extremely liquid, but treasuries pay more interest than reserves (yes, reserves do pay interest [1]).

The only difference between treasuries and reserves is, in fact, the interest rate an the fact that we call one "debt" and the other "money". But they are both US federal gov't liabilities denominated in USD. [2]

The bulk of the impact on inflation already happened... when the treasuries were issued in the first place. They aren't waiting to be exchanged for reserves to suddenly cause inflation. [3]

So, if anything, the Federal Reserve swapping one gov't liability for another paying lower interest could lead to less inflation, not more. [4]

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IOER [2] http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=31715 [3] http://www.cfeps.org/pubs/wp-pdf/WP37-MoslerForstater.pdf [4] https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/j...

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by lisper on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:56PM (#18595687)
Potentially.

One way to think of the U.S. national debt is as a measure of the future money supply. There are two ways to retire the debt: pay it off through increased productivity (i.e. GDP growth) or print dollars. Debt doesn't cause inflation directly, but it's a potential time bomb if the debt comes due and you can't pay it through productivity growth (or higher taxes).

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by afarrell on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:13AM (#18596492)
Does it have to be future US productivity? Or because dollars are the global reserve currency, can it be future productivity of a nation that buys US treasuries?
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by lisper on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:50AM (#18596685)
Pretty much, because that's the only productivity that the U.S. government can effectively tax.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by TangoTrotFox on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:35AM (#18596888)
The one big gotcha in international finance is the petrodollar. Going back to the 70s we made an incredibly prescient deal with Saudi Arabia. They agree to sell their oil only in USD and then to invest annual surpluses back into US securities. In exchange we agree to ensure protection of their kingdom and guarantee weapon sells. This arrangement continues to this day in grand fashion. For instance even though Saudi Arabia only has some 30 million people, it's the third largest defense spender in the world spending some $70 billion a year on weapons, with most of that going straight [back] to us. Our influence in turn led to the expansion of the petrodollar beyond just Saudi Arabia to nearly all oil sales.

This doesn't seem like a particularly big deal, until you realize what it does. Imagine the US pumps a bunch of funny money (I'm using a sardonic term just to clearly distinguish between organic/'real' growth) into our economy. This would naturally cause inflation. But here's where the fun kicks in. Oil is still by far the most in demand resource in the world. And now when countries go to buy oil they need to accumulate USD. But now due to inflation a country that wants to buy the same amount of oil needs to keep an even larger reserve of USD on hand. And that's exactly what happens. The USD becomes worth less and countries are obligated to hoover up more USD to ensure access to oil. As that USD starts getting removed from circulation, the effects of the inflation start to abate. Like magic, we can 'print' (not how many is made, but that's another topic) a practically unlimited amount of funny money with minimal economic consequences.

This also explains much of otherwise inexplicable actions in the Mideast and related places. We don't want their oil, we want them to sell their oil in USD only. This [1] is an article from Time in 2000: "Europe's dream of promoting the euro as a competitor to the U.S. dollar may get a boost from SADDAM HUSSEIN. Iraq says that from now on, it wants payments for its oil in euros, despite the fact that the battered European currency unit, which used to be worth quite a bit more than $1, has dropped to about 82[cents]. Iraq says it will no longer accept dollars for oil because it does not want to deal "in the currency of the enemy."" By 2003 we had destroyed the Iraq government and killed Saddam in a kangaroo court. Similarly with Libya, Gaddafi was aiming to create a gold backed 'Afro-currency' which is what he wanted to start selling his oil in. Two other nations which have moved against the petrodollar are Iran and Venezuela.

On the other side of things, this also explains Saudi Arabia. One of the most backwards and repressive nations in existence today, we're still BFF since they act like a loyal lapdog when it comes to the petrodollar. In exchange we let them do just about anything. The CIA has recently stated that Khashoggi's murder was likely ordered all the way from the top. I can tell you how this story will end. Do you remember in 2015 when Saudi Prince Majed Abdulaziz Al Saud had a rape and assault filled 'party' at a rented mansion in Beverley Hills? The 'party' was only stopped once a neighbor called the police after seeing a bleeding woman screaming for help as she tried to scale the fence of his mansion to get away. He was arrested and that's where most media reporting ended. The epilogue is that he was rapidly granted bail, got on a plane and simply flew back to Saudi Arabia with no consequences whatsoever.

---------

This is already getting long enough, but something very important now a days is that the petrodollar is dying. It's a mixture of a perfect storm of a large number different of factors, but it's definitely a dead system walking. And this has major implications for the future of the US economy. To date we've had 'economy armor' on. In the not so distant future, that armor is coming off and our economy will stand or fall under its own weight. And this is when being massively in debt suddenly does start to matter because if you just try to print your way out of it, you would not be able to rely on the petrodollar to protect the economy anymore.

[1] - https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512...

[2] - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-prince-majed-abdulaziz-al...

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jjeaff on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:48AM (#18597221)
Thanks for the interesting insight.

While I agree the petrodollar is a big deal, and it does afford us a lot of extra leeway in monetary policy, we can't forget that the US is still an economic powerhouse in many, many different industries. And the power of singularly focused economies like Saudi Arabia is waning.

The shallow reporting is that manufacturing is gone, but the reality is, we have higher manufacturing output than ever. (The fewer jobs needed for higher output is a different story.) We have an enormous lead in software. Intel and Qualcomm are the two biggest semiconductor companies. We have the largest oil and natural gas reserves, much of which is still untapped. A large share of world media entertainment is here. The US pharmaceutical industry accounts for almost half of the world output. World banking and finance is huge. Real estate market is enormous and highly desirable to outside investment. And this is for a country with less than 5% of the world's population.

And that's just some of the big stuff that the US leads the way in. There are so many other industries that the US is still a global player in. What I'm getting at is the the breadth and depth of the U.S. economy is so large that it is hard to comprehend and I don't think the failure of any one industry will be enough to produce significant hardship for the US. Nor does the economy need to rely on the petrodollar for protection in the long term.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jacobush on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:47AM (#18597927)
What the fall of the petrodollar will change though, is that the US will lose some of its "friends" it could rely on by default. The US will have to work on its diplomacy again. I hope it will not be too much of the gunboat kind.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by deathhand on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:36AM (#18598837)
As we have seen however intellectual property theft and knowledge transfers can even the game very quickly. IP scales infinitely while the meat space is governed by physics.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by dm3 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:22AM (#18598394)
Great writeup - exactly what I've been thinking about for the past year. What's the impact of US Dollar losing its reserve currency status?

There's a great podcast which sparked my interest in following macro developments, touching the future of the US dollar in particular - Macro Voices - The US Dollar End Game [1] (there are 5 parts, link points to the first one). I'd also recommend listening/reading the transcripts for all the pieces with Jeffrey Snider, e.g. [2] and his blog [3].

[1]: https://www.macrovoices.com/336-anatomy-of-the-u-s-dollar-en...

[2]: https://www.macrovoices.com/239-jeffrey-snider-understanding...

[3]: https://www.alhambrapartners.com/commentaryanalysis/

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by pjc50 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:51AM (#18597957)
This gets claimed a lot, but I've never seen reliable evidence for the "agreement", and the oil buying countries wouldn't accumulate USD - the whole point is to spend it on buying oil.

US inflation management is done by the Fed, which has got rather good at it. It's one of the few big success stories of 20th century economics is working out how to do inflation control with interest rates reliably.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by marvin on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:06AM (#18597705)
Wow. I've been wondering about this since March 2003. Is it really this simple? And how come this isn't common knowledge?

This explains how the US can print money without inflation, why Saudi Arabia is given a pass on a generation of horrible policies, and of course why the Iraq war was performed.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jacobush on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:44AM (#18597909)
Every time I have tried to raise this point in various forums, I've gotten ridiculed or downvoted, depending on the nature of the venue. Thanks for making the point so clearly, including what challenges the future holds.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by prostoalex on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:38AM (#18600978)
From this report https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2016/05/17/saud... it sounds like Saudi Arabia holds under $120 billion of US Treasuries with the total outstanding US debt being $21.702 trillion https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2018/opd...

At 0.55% (the figure has possibly have gone down due to the drop in oil prices between 2016 and 2018) they're a significant holder, but hardly a market maker.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by russellbeattie on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:16AM (#18597065)
This is terrifying, and explains sooooo much! Wow.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:02PM (#18595723)
They would be introducing money into the economy. The people that had their bonds purchased by the Fed would be holding money that didnt previously exist.

This dilutes the value of an individual dollar. Just like dilution of any asset.

In the context of currencies this is called inflation.

Typically the whole point is for private persons to invest into the real economy, even though it is riskier, because these other new ventures are going to try to put it to productive use, instead of any party just parking the money in a bank account since now it is clear it will lose value just parked.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by mikekchar on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:57PM (#18595699)
I can't quite wrap my head around if inflation is terribly bad in this situation. Certainly the Japanese government has been trying to introduce inflation, but the yen has stubbornly stayed pretty high. However, personal debt here in Japan is in a completely different situation than in the US. I wonder if the US is kind of caught between a rock and a hard place. I'd love to hear from someone who understands this stuff...
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by SenHeng on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:39PM (#18596329)
That Japan doesn’t suffer from inflation is purely an illusion. Rent has been going up, fuel prices have gone up, the volume of stuff you can purchase inside a container had actually declined. Drinks in tetrapaks, foods in packages, etc have all decreased in volume. We’re paying the same amount but getting less as the years have gone by.

It’s cutely termed shrinkflation.

https://togetter.com/li/1190012

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by kamaal on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:42AM (#18596916)
>>Yields at 0% means that the US will not be paying interest on its [new] debt. Yields at negative means that investors will be paying the US.

How does this work?

Why should/will anybody give money to anybody for free?

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jjeaff on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:03AM (#18597310)
If you had a billion dollars you wanted to keep safe, what would you do with it? If you think the markets are going to do poorly, you might not want to invest it there.

You could just put it into a bank account, but what if that bank goes under? You are only insured by the FDIC up to $250k. You could put it into 4,000 different banks (essentially every bank in America) each with an account of $250k. But imagine the overhead of opening and keeping track of those. How many accountants will you need to have on staff full time? And lots of banks charge a monthly fee if you aren't making transactions every month.

So are you going to take it in cash? If so, where will you put it? You'll need storage, security, insurance... what if the insurance company goes bust and can't pay out?

All those options are very expensive. But you have the option to put that money into a US government bond, the safest place in the world, and it won't cost you a dime. Free storage.

In Europe, there were actually cases of negative interest rates. So people were paying a little bit of money to loan to the government because it was still the safest and cheapest way to protect their enormous sums.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by thaumasiotes on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:41AM (#18597885)
> And lots of banks charge a monthly fee if you aren't making transactions every month.

This is never going to apply to people with $250,000 deposited with the bank. Lots of banks charge a monthly fee if you aren't making transactions and also don't have any money.

Make a large interest-free loan to the bank, and they won't charge you fees for the privilege of making it.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by brianpgordon on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @09:53AM (#18599861)
> But imagine the overhead of opening and keeping track of those. How many accountants will you need to have on staff full time? And lots of banks charge a monthly fee if you aren't making transactions every month.

Many retail brokerages will sell you CDs commission-free and keep track of everything for you. They get a commission from the bank for selling them to you. Schwab has a CD search tool with results that keep going page after page after page. I'm sure if you had a billion dollars they'd be happy to have a broker make the purchases for you.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by ww520 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:48PM (#18601744)
CD is as risky as the issuing bank. If the bank bankrupted, the CD money is gone, down to the FDIC insured amount.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by brianpgordon on Saturday December 08, 2018 @04:52AM (#18634627)
What? Obviously I'm not saying that you'd buy more than $250k of CDs at a single bank. Where are you coming up with this?
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jjeaff on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:40AM (#18653603)
Then you are back to the original problem of the overhead of managing 4,000 different CDs. I think you'll negate any gains and maybe likely lose money.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by sschueller on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:16AM (#18597398)
For example, Switzerland currently has the highest negative interest rate in the world. [1][2]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-snb-results-banks/swiss-b... [2] https://www.ft.com/content/bcc092fc-7743-11e6-a0c6-39e263316...

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by dragonwriter on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:52PM (#18601781)
> You could put it into 4,000 different banks

Or set up 4,000 different legal entities and deposit it all at one bank.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by jjeaff on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:44AM (#18653610)
Then that's 4,000 state filing fees, possibly 8,000 tax returns. 4000 1099-int forms... Talk about an expensive nightmare.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by conanbatt on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:06AM (#18600635)
Negative interest rates have been a fantastic economic phenomena of the last decade. https://www.ft.com/content/312f0a8c-0094-11e6-ac98-3c15a1aa2...
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by netcan on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:31AM (#18597839)
Lots of tools, but everything has a potentially undesirable or at least unpredictable side effect.

Over the last while, central bankers have been trying to increase inflation rates by keeping rates low, but the market has not been responding as they expected.

..at least inflation didn't go where they wanted it to. Asset prices went up (inflated). It's half based on magic, macroeconomics.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by RobertoG on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:20AM (#18598719)
That's because monetary tools are the wrong tool to generate growth and inflation. The correct tool is fiscal policy, but that's politically impossible at the moment in the USA and the Euro-area.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by netcan on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:28PM (#18601520)
This has become a popular opinion recently because the old proper tools stopped working.

The problem is that the institution responsible for inflation doesn't control the state budget, just central bank lending and banking rules. ...and I don't think you can say with any kind of certainty that "new macro," corbynomics or any of the other current ideas will work, are safe, or don't come with other side effects.

Personally, I'm not sure there's a constantly true answer.

ATM, businesses don't have ways of absorbing more money. You can Google, FB, msft, Amazon or Apple $100m... it probably wouldn't affect what they choose to to in any way. They already have money piling up. Tesla might use the money. They have factories to build, but Tesla's are a rarity.

In that market, to get stimulus/inflation, governments need to spend it themselves.

In 5 years, it could be different.

The problem, imo, with those types of ideas is that public spending is very hard to put in reverse. Even if the value for money sucks, you tend to get trapped spending it.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by drjesusphd on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:04AM (#18599027)
I would argue it's only "impossible" for the EU. The US could implement sound fiscal policy, but chooses not to. Whereas the eurozone states suffer a tragedy of the commons unless the fiscal structure of the EU changes.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by narrator on Monday December 03, 2018 @08:50PM (#18595178)
We could go China style and just get rid of the fed and have the government print its own money. That would be way too easy though.

Edit: The difference is when China bails out its banks it doesn't loan the money into existence to do it. The U.S government must borrow the money from the fed and the interest rate is paid back by the taxpayers. Yes, the interest paid back to the fed goes back to the government, minus expenses. However, those with very large amounts of money, trillions in aggregate, can piggyback on this system and earn enormous risk free returns where they would otherwise have to carefully invest in non-risk free instruments. These risk free assets are unavailable to chinese investors forcing these large savings into various productive (or non-productive based on their investing skill) investments in the economy. They can't go into T-Bills either because of strict currency controls. In the U.S the risk-free trillions invested are guaranteed by the power of taxation of the rest of the productive economy. This austerity to pay the bondholders and ensuing liquidation is what trashes the rest of the economy on a regular basis in Western economies. This doesn't happen in China because the banks get bailed out with printed money and they keep on lending without putting the government in debt or requiring taxes to be raised or austerity.

That China has not had a Japanese style prolonged credit bust even though it has been predicted by "The Economist" and other supposedly learned publications on a regular basis for the last 30 years is a sublime mystery that defines explanation because there is a stubborn refusal to objectively understand and analyze the Chinese financial system. I'd say it's a new paradigm in human organization that really defies western understanding because our financial system is so enormously politically protected by all that trillions in passive capital that gets risk free returns.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by mandelbrotwurst on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:29PM (#18595513)
The Federal Reserve is part of the government.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by brokensegue on Monday December 03, 2018 @09:59PM (#18595711)
and the federal reserve doesn't (literally) print the money...
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by gammateam on Monday December 03, 2018 @10:06PM (#18595747)
At their discretion they can buy an asset and the person they bought from now has money that didnt previously exist

This is what is being referred to as printing, but yes its just an unlimited asset issuance function in the currency class of a program

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by labster on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:51PM (#18596376)
Yes, but every bank can create money through lending, you don't need a to be a government agency to do that. The Fed just has less limits because it can just add arbitrary amounts of currency to its balance sheets.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by taysic on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:01AM (#18597000)
Banks in theory have consequences for lending more than is reasonably available to them. The Fed really can create money out of thin air. That's a big difference.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by brianpgordon on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:00AM (#18599936)
As long as they satisfy their capital requirements, banks can lend as they please. They tend not to make really bad loans because directors are legally beholden to shareholders to ensure management is appropriately managing risk. The Fed doesn't tend to print trillions of dollars for no particular reason because it is legally beholden to its dual mandate. It's not that different. Yes the Fed can create "reserve currency" and banks can only create "commercial currency" but the distinction is a technical one and doesn't have a whole lot of macroeconomic impact.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by taysic on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:51AM (#18605964)
The Fed has mandate that has nothing to do with the motivation of the banks. That's a huge difference - they create money for entirely different reasons. And yes, the Fed has an enormous macroeconomic impact obviously.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by brianpgordon on Saturday December 08, 2018 @04:54AM (#18634630)
I don't think you actually responded to anything that I said, so I'm not sure how to reply. Did you just sort all of the words in my comment and pick some at random to respond to?
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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by mandelbrotwurst on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:33PM (#18596291)
I know they're considered "independent", that said they're still a central authority created by Congress to control the money supply whose members are presidentially appointed, with a .gov domain name to boot.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by rapsey on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:24AM (#18597446)
Fed Board of Governors are appointed and a part of the government. The actual Fed banks themselves are owned by commercial banks.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by godzilla82 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:52AM (#18598926)
But do they report to the government?
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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by anticensor on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:53AM (#18597615)
For demand control reasons. Money printing can only control supply. The alternative is central bank becoming the basic income supplier, with no abilities to control demand.
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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by anticensor on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:57PM (#18602497)
The states, which have a central bank, a taxing buro and a government-owned lottery together, do have the necessary instruments to distribute UBI with a suitable demand control mechanism, with just a re-legistlation and re-organisation. US lacks the last one, hence lacks the instrument to do the demand control without debt control nand excessive taxing.
Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by shaki-dora on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:06AM (#18598298)
Because we understand that this is a ridiculous conspiracy theory, and also (apropos of nothing) "multinational" isn't a dirty word?

Hint: one of OP's sources is Glenn Beck. Also Rant Paul.

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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by matt4077 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:45AM (#18598536)
You could easily disprove this yourself. Just check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve#Legal_status_o...

> However, holding stock in a Federal Reserve bank is not like owning stock in a publicly traded company. These stocks cannot be sold or traded, and member banks do not control the Federal Reserve Bank as a result of owning this stock.

> the "ownership" of the Reserve Banks by the commercial banks is symbolic; they do not exercise the proprietary control associated with the concept of ownership nor share, beyond the statutory dividend, in Reserve Bank "profits."

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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by shaki-dora on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:22AM (#18598741)
Buy some Treasury Bonds, and you're also privately profiting from public debt. that's how it works. You need someone to take the other side to have any debt, and there is only one government.

Other than that: you have wilfully ignored the quotes, in what is obviously a bad faith attempt at trolling.

Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by dang on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @04:54AM (#18606934)
Please don't cross into incivility, regardless of how bad you think other comments are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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Re:The U.S. Yield Curve Has Inverted by dang on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @04:55AM (#18606938)
Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html