News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by clubm8 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:40PM (#18245733)
TSA can "envision" all it wants, it must operate within the confines of the constitution. CBP gets away with a lot due to the unique legal quagmire that is the US border. TSA has no such luxury, and thus (with a little help with orgs like ACLU and EFF) such initiatives should fail. Some restrictions apply - void where prohibited[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by djsumdog on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:08AM (#18245818)
The TSA already gets to harass, molest and assault people all they want. We've had nearly a decade of videos of crazy invasive and disturbing pat-downs of both adults and children. It's pretty obvious if you want to touch people inappropriately and legally, the TSA is the career choice you should be looking at.

I rarely fly anywhere unless I absolutely have to. I've flown a lot outside the country and no other country is anywhere near as bad as the US/TSA. No other country makes you take off your shoes.

I feel like early on, Americans fought hard against TSA security theatre and nothing changed and people kept flying, so it's just stayed pretty much the same.

It's gotten a little better. TSA agent can't harass people as much and have to be nicer since everyone is recording, but everything they do is still worthless. Millimetre wave machines are filled with so many false positives you should just have people roll a six-sided die.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by keithnoizu on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:45AM (#18246175)
It is literally less hassle to fly internationally from one country to another than it is to fly from one state to another in the US.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tehlike on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:01AM (#18246247)
Try flying to usa from pretty much anywhere else, but especially from middle east.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by lithiumfrost on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:40AM (#18245966)
I have not been everywhere, but Ben Gurion in Israel was worse than TSA. There’s some valid reason for that, but it can indeed be more intense than what TSA currently does.

I think it’s theatre too, but too many people are comforted by the theatre and believe that the more that there is, the safer that they’ll be.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Tharkun on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:13AM (#18246299)
I wish more people would feel unsafe when flying and stop doing it as often. Might help put a dent in climate change.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Klathmon on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:25AM (#18246829)
Isn't flying significantly better for the environment than most other forms of travel? Especially over longer distances.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by fourthark on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:45AM (#18246903)
Last I read, flying takes twice as much energy as driving, which takes twice as much energy as taking a train.

Maybe there are other considerations?

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Klathmon on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:04AM (#18246956)
So there's a Wikipedia page about this, but it seems to have conflicting information or I'm reading it wrong...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_tran...

The table seems to agree with you, however the text below it doesn't (at least not entirely).

After trying to decipher how they keep switching units (kg/km per passenger vs kg/mile per passenger), it seems as if the text shows .18 for long flights, .35 for average cars, .08 for long distance busses, and .19 for long distance trains (all units I put here are kg of CO2 emissions per passenger per mile).

And that doesn't take into account manufacturing or the impact of roads, but I don't necessarily think that changes the discussion at all.

I'm also not sure if those numbers are average capacity or peak capacity (planes are very often mostly full in my experience, while trains are not, and busses even less so, but that's all based on my own memory).

So I'm leaving this discussion with more questions than I started with, but my first statement was absolutely wrong!

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by maccard on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:59AM (#18247131)
> planes are very often mostly full in my experience, while trains are not, and busses even less so.

This is going to be very dependent on the route/times. I've flown transatlantic flights where I've had entire rows to myself (on multiple occasions). Trains are regularly running at capacity, especially on commuter lines.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by toomanybeersies on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:51AM (#18246205)
Vietnam makes you take off your shoes, I think last time I flew through Malaysia it was the same, and Australia sometimes requires you to take off your shoes (I think maybe some airports, like Gold Coast?).

It's annoyingly common, especially since I tend to wear boots, so it's a real hassle to take my boots off and then put them on again.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Tharkun on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:11AM (#18246292)
You know this, and you've apparently experienced this several times. So maybe stop wearing boots when flying? I always carry a pocket knife, but not when flying. Not just because I want to avoid anal probing, but also out of courtesy towards everyone who is behind me in the security theatre queue.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Klathmon on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:21AM (#18246813)
You are assuming they don't need or want the boots for any reason.

I've flow places with 4 laptops before, not because I think it's fun to inconvenience everyone in line, but because I needed them for where I was going.

If I was flying somewhere that I needed boots, I'd probably try to wear them to avoid having them pretty much take up most of my carry on space...

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Broken_Hippo on Thursday October 18, 2018 @06:56AM (#18247298)
The major difference is that one is basic clothing and the other is something you just have with you. I shouldn't have to buy special clothes to fly. (I happen to own a pair of athletic shoes as well as boots, however, my spouse only owns boots. We don't invest much in clothing).

On the other hand, I don't really find it to be much of a bother. My boots stay on decently without tying the laces and I can usually do a proper lacing when I'm out of the way.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by batiudrami on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:46AM (#18246427)
I think only if you have steel caps in Australia as they trigger the metal detectors. I've flown into and out of every major airport in Australia (including OOL) and have only had to remove my shoes when I'm wearing work boots.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by notmarkus on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:46AM (#18248233)
I'm pretty sure I didn't take my shoes off when exiting Vietnam. And definitely didn't when traveling from Saigon to Hanoi.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pishpash on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:25AM (#18245895)
They just turned it into a shakedown: pay for Precheck and you will be harassed less.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by clubm8 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:57AM (#18248824)
> They just turned it into a shakedown: pay for Precheck and you will be harassed less.

OTOH I've seen days where the precheck line was slower moving/longer if it's a time when lots of business travelers fly.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by anon7429 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:32AM (#18246136)
Yup. Same tactic as economy plus and biz class... misery to sell upgrades
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Simulacra on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:48AM (#18246432)
One of these days I’m just going to give up and wear this T-shirt I have that says “I made it to second base with the TSA screener“
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by sangnoir on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:33AM (#18249154)
That T-shirt might qualify you for third base^w^w additional screening in a small, private room.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by datalist on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:44AM (#18245982)
> No other country makes you take off your shoes.

No offence, but that is simply not true.

At European airports one is not always, but regularly, asked to take off his shoes.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tallanvor on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:18AM (#18246540)
I would say occasionally, not regularly. I don't think I've had to take off my shoes flying through European airports in at least 5 years, and even then it's generally because you set off the metal detector.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by keithnoizu on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:46AM (#18246178)
It happens in asia occasionally as well but you can usually leave them on.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eddz on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:28AM (#18247032)
I'll chime in to add Thailand to the list of countries which require your shoes to be off as you pass through security.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by rootsudo on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:33AM (#18247047)
Philippines too. Hong Kong sometimes. Japan never.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by rbetts on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:27AM (#18245903)
I fly quite a bit. I signed up for TSA pre. It typically takes me about 5m to get through a security lane and usually involves a walk through a metal detector. Shoes on; laptop in bag; no need to remove toiletries. It is a fast, efficient, and polite experience. I'm sure others have different experiences - or aren't willing/able to pay for the TSA pre program. But in general, I prefer my experience traveling domestically to passing through security internationally.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by ColanR on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:35AM (#18245945)
According to the TSA website, that means you submitted to "a 10 minute, in person appointment that includes a background check and fingerprinting." [0]

There is no reason why that should be required in order to fly without "harassment".

[0] https://www.tsa.gov/precheck

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by debaserab2 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:37AM (#18246623)
> There is no reason why that should be required in order to fly without "harassment".

Can you explain why you think this way exactly? How does taking out your laptop and taking off your shoes count as harassment, exactly?

I submitted to a 10 minute in person appointment that included fingerprinting and answering questions about my criminal status (I'm not). That's it. It was super easy.

I have tsa pre-check, and I mostly enjoy it because travelers who have tsa precheck tend to pack efficiently and aren't surprised and hung up at various checkpoints during the security intake process. It's an added bonus that I don't have to take my laptop out or take my shoes off, but it's not that big of a deal.

I'm not a fan of the TSA but I have a hard time understanding why someone would be upset with the TSA precheck process.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tehwebguy on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:41AM (#18248196)
I believe their point is that the 10 minute interview has no real world effect and so everyone should get the PreCheck treatment at security.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by darren_ on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:37AM (#18246148)
> or aren't willing/able to pay for the TSA pre program

Or are not eligible for any of the various 'pay more to be treated as a human' programs due to having the wrong citizenship (which is most citizenships).

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nielsbot on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:22AM (#18246338)
Guess now we’re just waiting for the first TSA Pre-approved person to commit a terrorist attack.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by sailfast on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:09AM (#18247980)
Putting mafia style protection racket arguments aside (pretty soon TSA will not need money from taxpayers, they’ll just extort for convenience sake) - per the press release you have now been forced into a full scale biometrics ID program (reminder: TSA also has jurisdiction in metro rail and bus areas). How does that make you feel? Do you know what information sharing agreements they have with local law enforcement? Intel agencies? Other federal agencies? License plate metadata vendors?

Good luck out there! Glad you could save the 30 minutes, but I’d love a world where it wouldn’t require payment.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by a012 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:17AM (#18246093)
Fly to Vietnam, take off your shoes for screening.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by abdullahkhalids on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:51AM (#18246202)
I have seen people being asked to take off their boots at Toronto Pearson.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by travelbuffoon on Thursday October 18, 2018 @07:53AM (#18247488)
That's because US bound flights have separate security, which operates with different standards.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by abdullahkhalids on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:24PM (#18250776)
Nope. This was for within Canada flights. Its also only for people wearing large boots in the winter.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pjmlp on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:04AM (#18246504)
This is a regular occurrence in European airports.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by umichguy on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:19AM (#18247004)
No it's not. I fly regularly intra-EU and maybe once (?) have had to take my shoes off in the last 5+yrs....can't even remember. I don't know which airports you transit/use but I go throw most of the major ones across EU pretty regularly.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pjmlp on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:24AM (#18247671)
All major ones.

Usually I see it happening to those lucky ones carrying boots or shoes with thick sole.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by umichguy on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:08PM (#18249492)
Maybe I haven't been paying that much attention. I travel wearing a mix of dress/ converse/ boots type shoes but no issues so far. Neither has my GF had any issues (that I know of).
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pjmlp on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:54PM (#18249952)
Naturally it is all anecdote data, I am not asserting that it is always like that.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pcardoso on Thursday October 18, 2018 @06:23AM (#18247198)
Not my experience, at least flying from PT to ES, CH, DE.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pjmlp on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:25AM (#18247672)
Try wearing boots or shoes with thick soles.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tomc1985 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:51AM (#18248766)
I had to take off my shoes in Chile...
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by sailfast on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:17AM (#18245854)
No fly lists are inherently unconstitutional. They are secret lists that limit travel. They are applied arbitrarily with no judicial process. They have existed since 9/11 and they need to be banned.

But yet... the electorate still believes in the safety they create because no legislator that I’m aware of has even broached the topic. I hope to see candidates with some sane opinions on this soon.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Simulacra on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:54AM (#18246456)
The “illusion of safety”. There is no legitimate safety guarantee from TSA. If someone wanted to do harm in an American airport or airplane, they could. We need to stop kidding ourselves. If a terrorist was serious about death and destruction at an American airport, they could do it. It is absolutely possible to bring down an airplane right now, with all the safeguards and TSA crap. We’ve all just fooled ourselves into thinking more security and less civil rights equals more safety.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by opportune on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:33AM (#18246600)
This is true, but the other side of the coin is that you want to make attacks hard enough. Yes, a group with $100k and a team of 3-5 people planning for a few months could really be destructive. But attacks (this applies to the digital world too) are generally unsophisticated, poorly planned, and take the easiest route possible. If you protect against, or at least mitigate, the easiest possible attacks, you eliminate a very large portion of security risks weighted by the likelihood of attackers to actually take those risks

It's just like there can be no legitimate safety guarantee that software companies are unhackable. But you can make it really, really hard. Of course the TSA doesn't make it that hard, and mostly wastes a ton of money on things with little value, but in theory there should be some amount of physical security to prevent people from hijacking what are essentially missiles containing 100s of regular people

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:15AM (#18246790)
"The other side of the coin"? I think you have presented a strawman opposition.

Few argue there should be no security, but rather that a few simple changes, like hardening cockpit doors for the cockpit and a change to the hijacking policy (based as it was on the assumption that the hijackers wanted to live and, for example, go to Cuba), were enough "physical security to prevent people from hijacking what are essentially missiles."

How does yet more biometrics help? Is the cost justifiable?

We could have 5 security guards on every plane. That would surely help prevent people from 'hijacking what are essentially missiles', yes? But the costs aren't worth it. Eg:

"An assessment of the Federal Air Marshal Service suggests that the annual cost is $180 million per life saved. This is greatly in excess of the regulatory safety goal of $1-$10 million per life saved. As such, the air marshal program would seem to fail a cost-benefit analysis" - https://ogma.newcastle.edu.au/vital/access/manager/Repositor...

The "illusion of safety" comes from putting policies into place which aren't justified by a reasonable cost-benefit analysis, but exist mostly for cover-your-ass reasoning.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tehwebguy on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:50AM (#18248267)
$100k??

There is a very famous website about making serious weapons (shivs, bombs, even a homemade “gun”) for under $100 using only items purchased at the news stands and gift shops found airside.

There never can or will be another 9/11 style attack, ever. Why? Because no one will ever give control of a plane over to an attacker, even if they have a knife / gun / bomb.

Attacker: “We have a bomb, let us into the cockpit or we will kill all 300 people on board”

Pilot: “...why, so you can fly the plane into a building and kill 1000 people? lol no, just detonate your bomb.”

That’s it, plane attacks like this are over. They ended on 9/12, forever.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by onetimemanytime on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:39AM (#18247063)
Curious, if fingerprints are allowed constitutionally, why not faces as identification? Laws might not allow it, but they'll change them
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by mbreese on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:44PM (#18245748)
Air travel is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. TSA gets a lot of leeway because of this.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by clubm8 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:10AM (#18245826)
> Air travel is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. TSA gets a lot of leeway because of this.

Travel in general is protected, and in addition the 9th Amendment clearly states:

>The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pishpash on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:26AM (#18245899)
Travel on public roadways perhaps but airports and airliners are all private property.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by spangry on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:44AM (#18245981)
Even in the case of private property, if the public is generally invited in, some constitutional rights can still apply:

...ownership "does not always mean absolute dominion." The court pointed out that the more an owner opens his property up to the public in general, the more his rights are circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who are invited in.

In its conclusion, the Court stated that it was essentially weighing the rights of property owners against the rights of citizens to enjoy freedom of press and religion. The Court noted that the rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights occupy a preferred position. Accordingly, the Court held that the property rights of a private entity are not sufficient to justify the restriction of a community of citizens' fundamental rights and liberties.

Incidentally, this judgment could be relevant to questions around freedom of speech on monopoly online platforms (e.g. google search, youtube, twitter & facebook): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:24AM (#18249059)
That was a horrible ruling. Upholding private property rights does not restrict anyone's "fundamental rights and liberties". The two are not in conflict: no one has any legitimate rights or liberties with respect to anyone else's private property to begin with, no matter how much the property owners may have opened up their property to the public. The Constitution guarantees freedom from government interference in the exercise of one's rights; it does not guarantee the availability of other's property for that purpose without their consent.

However, the issue in this case is not restrictions imposed by property owners on the use of their own property, but rather restrictions imposed by the federal government, which is bound by the limitations on government power written into the Constitution.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:28AM (#18254239)
Consider the Nordic "right to roam". Just because you own land doesn't mean you have the right to keep people off the land simply because you don't want them there. Or as the WP page quotes for this court case: 'ownership "does not always mean absolute dominion."'

If it were otherwise, then what's to keep from having a company city, or company state? Sell off Seattle to Bill Gates, and make it his fiefdom.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:35AM (#18257427)
> Just because you own land doesn't mean you have the right to keep people off the land simply because you don't want them there.

Sure it does. Entering someone's land when they've told you to stay out is known as "trespassing".

> If it were otherwise, then what's to keep from having a company city, or company state?

Assuming the land is legitimately homesteaded and purchased? Nothing. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Saturday October 20, 2018 @12:46AM (#18261809)
It is a US practice that property rights include the right to exclude others. That is not internationally held view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

That points out that "Ancient traces provide evidence of the freedom to roam in many European countries, suggesting such a freedom was once a common norm."

It's also been noted that the freedom to roam is strongest in those areas which didn't have feudalism and serfdom.

Just like feudalism and serfdom, company towns have a history of being controlling and exploitative .. and un-democratic. That's what's wrong with them.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:18AM (#18246803)
"airports .. are all private property"

SFO is owned by the City and County of San Francisco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Ai...

LAX is owned by the City of Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_International_Airp...

ORD is owned by the City of Chicago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_International_Airport

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Joeri on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:31AM (#18245931)
Cars and garages are private property as well. Just try flying an airplane without obtaining government approval and see what happens. The airways are definitely regulated public space.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by gasull on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:30AM (#18245921)
You can't violate the Constitution on private property.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tallanvor on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:21AM (#18246554)
Private companies acting in a private capacity cannot violate the constitution.

The limits of the Constitution apply to government employees (or even private employees performing a service contracted by a government agency) whether they are on public or private property.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:27AM (#18246839)
The major exception being slavery, that is, a private company with slave labor, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted", violates the 13th amendment, with penalties set by Congressional legislation.

There also have been cases where the courts have treated private companies as state actors. See https://www.nyclu.org/en/publications/column-applying-consti...

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:39AM (#18249220)
That is not an exception. The 13th Amendment prohibits the government from legally classifying a person as someone else's property (with the one noted exception). A private citizen treating a person as a slave may be guilty of kidnapping, assault, battery, or any number of other crimes, but they are not violating the 13th Amendment—only the government can do that, by granting legal recognition to the victim's status as a slave.

If a private company is acting in ways normally prohibited to private actors, on the state's authority, then they are effectively acting as an extension of the state. The state obviously cannot grant a private company the authority to do something which both private actors and the state itself are prohibited from doing. However, it's still the government, not the private company, which is bound by the Constitution.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:35PM (#18250905)
Your interpretation seems to differ from that of legal sources.

Quoting from the first paragraph of the ACLU link I gave: "With the notable exception of the Thirteenth Amendment’s ban on slavery, the individual liberties guaranteed by the United States Constitution protect against actions by government officials but not against actions by private persons or entities."

Quoting from https://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/GeoRegions/North... : "the Thirteenth Amendment's prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude encompasses both governmental and private action. Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 3, 20 (1883). The U.S. Supreme Court has held that Congress may regulate private conduct under sec. 2 of the Thirteenth Amendment, which provides that "Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Jones v. Alfred H. Mayer Co., 392 U.S. 409 (1968). Such power includes determining what constitutes the "badges and incidents of slavery and the authority to translate that determination into effective legislation."

Quoting from https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/encyclopedias-almanacs... : "The Thirteenth Amendment is one of the few constitutional provisions that directly implicates private conduct. That amendment, the first of the three "civil war amendments," flatly bans slavery and involuntary servitude. It acts directly upon private entities; slaves were owned by private businesses and individuals. The Thirteenth Amendment, however, has not been interpreted to provide a significant source of constitutional proscription against acts of private discrimination."

Quoting from http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/PROJECTS/FTRIALS/conlaw/thirtee... "The Thirteenth Amendment, unlike most provisions in the Constitution, is self-executing, in that it directly reaches-even without action by Congress- conduct by private individuals (slave holders)."

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:27AM (#18257360)
Yeah, that happens a lot. There's no need to treat the 13th Amendment as a unique case. The default state under natural law is that there is no such thing as legitimate involuntary slavery; treating anyone as a slave without their consent infringes on their inalienable rights. As such, there was never any need to ban private parties from holding slaves; the slave holder's only tenuous claim to legitimacy comes from the fact that the government takes their side, recognizing and enforcing their claims while simultaneously ignoring the natural rights of their slaves.

I suspect the convoluted arguments proposed for why the 13th Amendment must be unique are a direct consequence of the tortured logic needed to reconcile the institution of slavery with the principles on which the Constitution was based. Faced with a choice between acknowledging the government's role in legitimizing slavery or else arguing that it was merely a "private" matter which the government had thus far refrained from regulating they chose the narrative which minimized their share of the blame. This is akin to how the Interstate Commerce and General Welfare clauses have been perverted to justify all manner of legislation outside the narrowly defined scope of the federal government's enumerated powers.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Saturday October 20, 2018 @01:45AM (#18261940)
"direct consequence of the tortured logic needed to reconcile the institution of slavery with the principles on which the Constitution was based"

You cannot pick and choose which principles you like. The Constitutional principles include the support of slavery. The Constitutional principles do not include universal suffrage. The Constitutional principles said nothing against expanding westward and stealing Native American lands. The Constitutional principles didn't prevent us from ruling the Philippines as a colonial power, or using government power to suppress labor rights.

To the contrary, I believe federal power was strengthened in part to be able to suppress the rights of the poor. The rebels of Shay's Rebellion fought against monetary policies and court practices which caused their lands and possessions to be confiscated. The elites and merchant class wanted to be able to call out federal troops should their own power be threatened.

What does "natural law" say about the right to confiscate land and possessions for failure to pay debts? For failure to pay taxes? What if those debts and taxes must be paid in hard currency, and that currency isn't available, and the government refuses to issue paper currency and allow it to be used as a substitute?

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by stochastic_monk on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:21AM (#18248516)
This is true. And this is why the TSA is ostensibly restricted by the bill that of rights.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by anonuser123456 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:42AM (#18248206)
Private companies (e.g. the airlines) are not making the requirements; the government regulators are.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by walterbell on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:56PM (#18245787)
What would happen if businesspeople refused to travel if their constitutional rights were not respected, and the economy ground to a halt?

A small precedent was the widely flaunted "ban" on small electronic devices during takeoff/landing. A revolt among business travelers caused a rapid change in the rule.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by adventured on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:03AM (#18245806)
> What would happen if businesspeople refused to travel if their constitutional rights were not respected, and the economy ground to a halt?

When have business people as a very large collective ever been particularly outraged about the surveillance state? Nothing about the NSA's activities have been fundamentally rolled back. They won, across the board and across party lines. I'm not talking about seven executives from some corner of tech lodging a twitter protest, I mean the millions of people that make up the "businesspeople" category. They have never widely protested the surveillence moves of the last 17 years.

Americans will resist this as much as 24/7 cctv surveillence has been resisted in other developed nations such as Britain. Not at all. Most people do not view it as a threat to their liberty, they view it as an isolated intrusion that is to their security benefit.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by URSpider94 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245792)
I’m betting we will never find out. The number of people who have been driven out of air travel because of today’s draconian restrictions is basically zero. People are conditioned to comply with any request in order to board an airplane.

EDIT: you edited your post after I posted. As long as you don’t make people uncomfortable on the plane, that is. Don’t take away their phones, laptops or headphones, and you can grab as many images as you want of their irises, retinas and fingerprints.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by zamfi on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:31AM (#18245928)
TSA Precheck has made things much, much easier for frequent travelers -- those who aren't as concerned about their "constitutional rights" anyway. [0] Perhaps the business travelers that might revolt have already signed up, and know they're being tracked by some government entity whether they sign up for Precheck or not.

In many ways, Precheck feels like flying in the 90s. You know 24h in advance if you will be able to sail through security in < 5 minutes and can get to the airport much closer to departure.

[0]: https://universalenroll.dhs.gov/workflows?servicecode=11115V...

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by ekianjo on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245795)
The percentage of people caring about privacy is too low for TSA to worry about it, though.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by azinman2 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:00AM (#18245797)
Did business travelers stop traveling? And the economy suffered?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by joshuamcginnis on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:54PM (#18245779)
It is unfortunate we surrender our freedom of movement and 4th amendment rights for the illusion of security.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by johndubchak on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:19AM (#18245865)
That's the central argument right there. We just need people to refuse to use air travel based on this if it comes to pass - I know I will.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by aesh2Xa1 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:49PM (#18245767)
What's the argument here? Spaghetti and meatballs aren't explicitly guaranteed, either, but you can eat them without signing away any other rights.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by beambot on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:53PM (#18245774)
s/spaghetti & meatballs/illicit drugs/ and that argument falls apart. You will quickly lose other rights, even though drugs aren't explicitly guaranteed or prohibited by the constitution either.

(Not addressing GPs argument, just that the spaghetti & meatballs one doesn't hold water.)

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by samstave on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:01AM (#18245799)
Bone Saws aren't banned either, and retinal eye-scans of assassins will not make the world a safer place.

Having Humanist-Centric politics makes the world a better place. Humans with shitty governments, parenting and environments which are shitty typically wind up being shitty humans.

Building walls, guns, bombs, cages, cops, totalitarian and authoritarian regimes are no substitute for actually working to be better humans

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by afjl on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:18AM (#18245863)
I agree but you can't realistically build policy around "working to be better humans". Walls, guns, surveillance, etc are all easily deployable policies with easily measurable results. I don't enjoy the surveillance state or waiting 2 hours for airport security but it is tolerable...to an extent.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by labster on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:58PM (#18245791)
Tell that to the residents of Old Smoky, who lost their poor meatballs to government regulation.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by baddox on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:57PM (#18245788)
Note that regulating air travel is also not listed in the Constitution as an authority of the federal government.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by cr1895 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:11AM (#18246778)
Interstate commerce is though, right?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:52AM (#18249345)
Only because at the time that clause was written no one expected the relatively benign power to "make interstate commerce regular", i.e. to facilitate trade between the states, to be used as cover for absolutely any kind of interference in state affairs Washington can dream up—including actions which actively inhibit trade, or have precious little to do with interstate commerce in the first place—in preference to actually useful things like standardizing weights and measures and curbing fraud.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by kakarot on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:19AM (#18245864)
If air travel is the only feasible way to leave the country, then yes, it is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by ip26 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:20AM (#18245870)
Nobody is required to give you free air travel, no. But the government is not supposed to be allowed to obstruct you from traveling, whether you want to go by air, boat, road..
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by daenz on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:25AM (#18245894)
Suppose the TSA becomes a private entity of airlines?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by jdbernard on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:53AM (#18247869)
Then some other airline create a huge competitive advantage by not using it.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by aosmith on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245794)
I'm pretty sure freedom of travel is covered by liberty.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by onetimemanytime on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:46AM (#18247088)
Travel is essential, just as the right to work, breathe when you want etc etc. So, my bet is that it is. Granted with some restrictions to make sure everyone is as safe as possible...without getting a cavity search