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Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by mbreese on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:44PM (#18245748)
Air travel is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. TSA gets a lot of leeway because of this.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by clubm8 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:10AM (#18245826)
> Air travel is not a right guaranteed by the constitution. TSA gets a lot of leeway because of this.

Travel in general is protected, and in addition the 9th Amendment clearly states:

>The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by pishpash on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:26AM (#18245899)
Travel on public roadways perhaps but airports and airliners are all private property.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by spangry on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:44AM (#18245981)
Even in the case of private property, if the public is generally invited in, some constitutional rights can still apply:

...ownership "does not always mean absolute dominion." The court pointed out that the more an owner opens his property up to the public in general, the more his rights are circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who are invited in.

In its conclusion, the Court stated that it was essentially weighing the rights of property owners against the rights of citizens to enjoy freedom of press and religion. The Court noted that the rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights occupy a preferred position. Accordingly, the Court held that the property rights of a private entity are not sufficient to justify the restriction of a community of citizens' fundamental rights and liberties.

Incidentally, this judgment could be relevant to questions around freedom of speech on monopoly online platforms (e.g. google search, youtube, twitter & facebook): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:24AM (#18249059)
That was a horrible ruling. Upholding private property rights does not restrict anyone's "fundamental rights and liberties". The two are not in conflict: no one has any legitimate rights or liberties with respect to anyone else's private property to begin with, no matter how much the property owners may have opened up their property to the public. The Constitution guarantees freedom from government interference in the exercise of one's rights; it does not guarantee the availability of other's property for that purpose without their consent.

However, the issue in this case is not restrictions imposed by property owners on the use of their own property, but rather restrictions imposed by the federal government, which is bound by the limitations on government power written into the Constitution.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Friday October 19, 2018 @12:28AM (#18254239)
Consider the Nordic "right to roam". Just because you own land doesn't mean you have the right to keep people off the land simply because you don't want them there. Or as the WP page quotes for this court case: 'ownership "does not always mean absolute dominion."'

If it were otherwise, then what's to keep from having a company city, or company state? Sell off Seattle to Bill Gates, and make it his fiefdom.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:35AM (#18257427)
> Just because you own land doesn't mean you have the right to keep people off the land simply because you don't want them there.

Sure it does. Entering someone's land when they've told you to stay out is known as "trespassing".

> If it were otherwise, then what's to keep from having a company city, or company state?

Assuming the land is legitimately homesteaded and purchased? Nothing. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Saturday October 20, 2018 @12:46AM (#18261809)
It is a US practice that property rights include the right to exclude others. That is not internationally held view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

That points out that "Ancient traces provide evidence of the freedom to roam in many European countries, suggesting such a freedom was once a common norm."

It's also been noted that the freedom to roam is strongest in those areas which didn't have feudalism and serfdom.

Just like feudalism and serfdom, company towns have a history of being controlling and exploitative .. and un-democratic. That's what's wrong with them.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:18AM (#18246803)
"airports .. are all private property"

SFO is owned by the City and County of San Francisco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Ai...

LAX is owned by the City of Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_International_Airp...

ORD is owned by the City of Chicago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_International_Airport

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by Joeri on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:31AM (#18245931)
Cars and garages are private property as well. Just try flying an airplane without obtaining government approval and see what happens. The airways are definitely regulated public space.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by gasull on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:30AM (#18245921)
You can't violate the Constitution on private property.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by tallanvor on Thursday October 18, 2018 @03:21AM (#18246554)
Private companies acting in a private capacity cannot violate the constitution.

The limits of the Constitution apply to government employees (or even private employees performing a service contracted by a government agency) whether they are on public or private property.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:27AM (#18246839)
The major exception being slavery, that is, a private company with slave labor, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted", violates the 13th amendment, with penalties set by Congressional legislation.

There also have been cases where the courts have treated private companies as state actors. See https://www.nyclu.org/en/publications/column-applying-consti...

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:39AM (#18249220)
That is not an exception. The 13th Amendment prohibits the government from legally classifying a person as someone else's property (with the one noted exception). A private citizen treating a person as a slave may be guilty of kidnapping, assault, battery, or any number of other crimes, but they are not violating the 13th Amendment—only the government can do that, by granting legal recognition to the victim's status as a slave.

If a private company is acting in ways normally prohibited to private actors, on the state's authority, then they are effectively acting as an extension of the state. The state obviously cannot grant a private company the authority to do something which both private actors and the state itself are prohibited from doing. However, it's still the government, not the private company, which is bound by the Constitution.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:35PM (#18250905)
Your interpretation seems to differ from that of legal sources.

Quoting from the first paragraph of the ACLU link I gave: "With the notable exception of the Thirteenth Amendment’s ban on slavery, the individual liberties guaranteed by the United States Constitution protect against actions by government officials but not against actions by private persons or entities."

Quoting from https://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/GeoRegions/North... : "the Thirteenth Amendment's prohibition against slavery and involuntary servitude encompasses both governmental and private action. Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 3, 20 (1883). The U.S. Supreme Court has held that Congress may regulate private conduct under sec. 2 of the Thirteenth Amendment, which provides that "Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." Jones v. Alfred H. Mayer Co., 392 U.S. 409 (1968). Such power includes determining what constitutes the "badges and incidents of slavery and the authority to translate that determination into effective legislation."

Quoting from https://www.encyclopedia.com/politics/encyclopedias-almanacs... : "The Thirteenth Amendment is one of the few constitutional provisions that directly implicates private conduct. That amendment, the first of the three "civil war amendments," flatly bans slavery and involuntary servitude. It acts directly upon private entities; slaves were owned by private businesses and individuals. The Thirteenth Amendment, however, has not been interpreted to provide a significant source of constitutional proscription against acts of private discrimination."

Quoting from http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/PROJECTS/FTRIALS/conlaw/thirtee... "The Thirteenth Amendment, unlike most provisions in the Constitution, is self-executing, in that it directly reaches-even without action by Congress- conduct by private individuals (slave holders)."

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Friday October 19, 2018 @11:27AM (#18257360)
Yeah, that happens a lot. There's no need to treat the 13th Amendment as a unique case. The default state under natural law is that there is no such thing as legitimate involuntary slavery; treating anyone as a slave without their consent infringes on their inalienable rights. As such, there was never any need to ban private parties from holding slaves; the slave holder's only tenuous claim to legitimacy comes from the fact that the government takes their side, recognizing and enforcing their claims while simultaneously ignoring the natural rights of their slaves.

I suspect the convoluted arguments proposed for why the 13th Amendment must be unique are a direct consequence of the tortured logic needed to reconcile the institution of slavery with the principles on which the Constitution was based. Faced with a choice between acknowledging the government's role in legitimizing slavery or else arguing that it was merely a "private" matter which the government had thus far refrained from regulating they chose the narrative which minimized their share of the blame. This is akin to how the Interstate Commerce and General Welfare clauses have been perverted to justify all manner of legislation outside the narrowly defined scope of the federal government's enumerated powers.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by eesmith on Saturday October 20, 2018 @01:45AM (#18261940)
"direct consequence of the tortured logic needed to reconcile the institution of slavery with the principles on which the Constitution was based"

You cannot pick and choose which principles you like. The Constitutional principles include the support of slavery. The Constitutional principles do not include universal suffrage. The Constitutional principles said nothing against expanding westward and stealing Native American lands. The Constitutional principles didn't prevent us from ruling the Philippines as a colonial power, or using government power to suppress labor rights.

To the contrary, I believe federal power was strengthened in part to be able to suppress the rights of the poor. The rebels of Shay's Rebellion fought against monetary policies and court practices which caused their lands and possessions to be confiscated. The elites and merchant class wanted to be able to call out federal troops should their own power be threatened.

What does "natural law" say about the right to confiscate land and possessions for failure to pay debts? For failure to pay taxes? What if those debts and taxes must be paid in hard currency, and that currency isn't available, and the government refuses to issue paper currency and allow it to be used as a substitute?

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by stochastic_monk on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:21AM (#18248516)
This is true. And this is why the TSA is ostensibly restricted by the bill that of rights.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by anonuser123456 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:42AM (#18248206)
Private companies (e.g. the airlines) are not making the requirements; the government regulators are.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by walterbell on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:56PM (#18245787)
What would happen if businesspeople refused to travel if their constitutional rights were not respected, and the economy ground to a halt?

A small precedent was the widely flaunted "ban" on small electronic devices during takeoff/landing. A revolt among business travelers caused a rapid change in the rule.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by adventured on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:03AM (#18245806)
> What would happen if businesspeople refused to travel if their constitutional rights were not respected, and the economy ground to a halt?

When have business people as a very large collective ever been particularly outraged about the surveillance state? Nothing about the NSA's activities have been fundamentally rolled back. They won, across the board and across party lines. I'm not talking about seven executives from some corner of tech lodging a twitter protest, I mean the millions of people that make up the "businesspeople" category. They have never widely protested the surveillence moves of the last 17 years.

Americans will resist this as much as 24/7 cctv surveillence has been resisted in other developed nations such as Britain. Not at all. Most people do not view it as a threat to their liberty, they view it as an isolated intrusion that is to their security benefit.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by URSpider94 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245792)
I’m betting we will never find out. The number of people who have been driven out of air travel because of today’s draconian restrictions is basically zero. People are conditioned to comply with any request in order to board an airplane.

EDIT: you edited your post after I posted. As long as you don’t make people uncomfortable on the plane, that is. Don’t take away their phones, laptops or headphones, and you can grab as many images as you want of their irises, retinas and fingerprints.

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by zamfi on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:31AM (#18245928)
TSA Precheck has made things much, much easier for frequent travelers -- those who aren't as concerned about their "constitutional rights" anyway. [0] Perhaps the business travelers that might revolt have already signed up, and know they're being tracked by some government entity whether they sign up for Precheck or not.

In many ways, Precheck feels like flying in the 90s. You know 24h in advance if you will be able to sail through security in < 5 minutes and can get to the airport much closer to departure.

[0]: https://universalenroll.dhs.gov/workflows?servicecode=11115V...

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by ekianjo on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245795)
The percentage of people caring about privacy is too low for TSA to worry about it, though.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by azinman2 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:00AM (#18245797)
Did business travelers stop traveling? And the economy suffered?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by joshuamcginnis on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:54PM (#18245779)
It is unfortunate we surrender our freedom of movement and 4th amendment rights for the illusion of security.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by johndubchak on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:19AM (#18245865)
That's the central argument right there. We just need people to refuse to use air travel based on this if it comes to pass - I know I will.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by aesh2Xa1 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:49PM (#18245767)
What's the argument here? Spaghetti and meatballs aren't explicitly guaranteed, either, but you can eat them without signing away any other rights.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by beambot on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:53PM (#18245774)
s/spaghetti & meatballs/illicit drugs/ and that argument falls apart. You will quickly lose other rights, even though drugs aren't explicitly guaranteed or prohibited by the constitution either.

(Not addressing GPs argument, just that the spaghetti & meatballs one doesn't hold water.)

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by samstave on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:01AM (#18245799)
Bone Saws aren't banned either, and retinal eye-scans of assassins will not make the world a safer place.

Having Humanist-Centric politics makes the world a better place. Humans with shitty governments, parenting and environments which are shitty typically wind up being shitty humans.

Building walls, guns, bombs, cages, cops, totalitarian and authoritarian regimes are no substitute for actually working to be better humans

Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by afjl on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:18AM (#18245863)
I agree but you can't realistically build policy around "working to be better humans". Walls, guns, surveillance, etc are all easily deployable policies with easily measurable results. I don't enjoy the surveillance state or waiting 2 hours for airport security but it is tolerable...to an extent.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by labster on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:58PM (#18245791)
Tell that to the residents of Old Smoky, who lost their poor meatballs to government regulation.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by baddox on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:57PM (#18245788)
Note that regulating air travel is also not listed in the Constitution as an authority of the federal government.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by cr1895 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @04:11AM (#18246778)
Interstate commerce is though, right?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by nybble41 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:52AM (#18249345)
Only because at the time that clause was written no one expected the relatively benign power to "make interstate commerce regular", i.e. to facilitate trade between the states, to be used as cover for absolutely any kind of interference in state affairs Washington can dream up—including actions which actively inhibit trade, or have precious little to do with interstate commerce in the first place—in preference to actually useful things like standardizing weights and measures and curbing fraud.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by kakarot on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:19AM (#18245864)
If air travel is the only feasible way to leave the country, then yes, it is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by ip26 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:20AM (#18245870)
Nobody is required to give you free air travel, no. But the government is not supposed to be allowed to obstruct you from traveling, whether you want to go by air, boat, road..
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by daenz on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:25AM (#18245894)
Suppose the TSA becomes a private entity of airlines?
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by jdbernard on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:53AM (#18247869)
Then some other airline create a huge competitive advantage by not using it.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by aosmith on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59PM (#18245794)
I'm pretty sure freedom of travel is covered by liberty.
Re:TSA announces “biometrics vision for all commercial aviat... by onetimemanytime on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:46AM (#18247088)
Travel is essential, just as the right to work, breathe when you want etc etc. So, my bet is that it is. Granted with some restrictions to make sure everyone is as safe as possible...without getting a cavity search