News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by bonyt on Tuesday June 19, 2018 @11:12PM (#17352272)
This is literally an episode of Better Off Ted.[1] In it, the titular Ted is inadvertenly deleted from the company system when trying to correct a misspelling of his last name. Eventually, he is forced to interview for his own job as the system had already put out an ad for his replacement. I think the most striking part of it, and of the true story from the post, is the human factor - the idea that the humans involved looked to the system as an authority and followed its orders blindly.

I wonder what other examples there are of people blindly following technology - people driving into lakes because their GPS told them to, etc. Plus, as our society gets more and more dependent on these systems, we may lose out on the flexibility that human mediators and problem solvers once gave us. The human tendency to defer to authority may never be as terrifying as when that authority is held by an uncaring machine with a couple bugs.

What was once satire has become too real.

[1]: http://betteroffted.wikia.com/wiki/Goodbye,_Mr._Chips

Re:The Machine Fired Me by vvanders on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:12AM (#17352746)
That show was incredibly on the mark, if Black Mirror was a comedy it would have been that show.

The episode about the black engineer who isn't detected by the motion sensors is basically straight out of HP's webcam fiasco[1](although the show takes it to the logical and hilarious extreme).

[1] http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race/2009/12/hp-webcam-c...

Re:The Machine Fired Me by bobbyi_settv on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:49AM (#17353140)
Here's that episode on Hulu for anyone who happens to have a subscription and want to check it out:

https://www.hulu.com/watch/81765

In my opinion, BOT is one of the best comedy shows of the past decade and that episode is widely considered to be the best one.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by letsgetphysITal on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @04:16AM (#17353482)
This has been a real problem with facial recognition. Faces used to train engines are typically Caucasian, so the ability to distinguish other ethnicities is quite sub-par.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/the-u...

Re:The Machine Fired Me by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:13AM (#17353697)
Isn't there a problem with shadow contrast which makes features more difficult to pick out on darker skinned faces? I vaguely recall an East Asian developer giving that reason for why he developed on Western data-sets.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by thecatspaw on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:31AM (#17354346)
Wouldnt it make more sense then to develop _not_ on the easycase but the hard ones?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by Jonnax on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:57AM (#17354498)
Yeah but, you know, deadlines to meet and contracts to win.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by faceplanted on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:09PM (#17357991)
gives the best performance metrics as well
Re:The Machine Fired Me by pbhjpbhj on Thursday June 21, 2018 @07:35AM (#17364102)
MVP presumably.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by Rjevski on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:24AM (#17353752)
Most likely it’s an issue with contrast and overall darker skin colour.

Can be solved by illuminating the face with IR though, which should work across all ethnicities.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:51AM (#17353866)
Yes, but then you need special equipment rather than standard cameras (that usually filter IR); which would prove the point that it's about physical limitations rather than racism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by DanBC on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:08AM (#17353937)
The racism comes from saying "We recognise human faces" and then not recognising a significant proportion of humans.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by pc86 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:47AM (#17354429)
That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it.

It's not that hard to find both conscious and subconscious examples of systemic or individual racism. Engineers taking the easy path with webcam facial recognition is probably not a good one and serves only to give more fuel to those who claim people jump to the racism cry too quickly.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by wpietri on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:43AM (#17355839)
If you ship a product because it only works for white people and that's good enough, that is definitely racism. Just as it would be sexism if you shipped a voice recognition product that only worked for men.

Laziness and racism aren't mutually exclusive. Historically in America, white people haven't considered black people as fully human. You can read the various declarations of secession or the 3/5ths compromise for that. Or the long post-Reconstruction history of slightly more subtle ways.

Sure, laziness was involved here. But deciding a product was good enough to ship without caring that it worked for black people requires the effective belief that black people didn't really count as people. At least, not people that mattered. Imagine the reverse: if the product didn't work on white men, would it have been shipped? Of course not.

When laziness just happens to have a blatantly racist outcome in a place where there is a centuries-long history of racism, Occam's Razor suggests the explanation is racism. If laziness could not have caused the bad outcome to happen for white people, then it's pretty clear that pure laziness is not the real cause. It's instead white people being differentially lazy when it comes to black people. That's clearly racism.

As a confirmatory example, look at the American justice system. In a lot of places and times, the same nominal laws applied to white and black people. But they were enforced very differently. Serious crimes against black people were ignored. Minor infractions by black people were enforced vigorously. [1] Were the cops lazy? Sure, everybody's lazy sometimes. Was that why there was a racially different outcome? Definitely not.

[1] Examples of this are all over Loewen's "Sundown Towns" for example.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by eezurr on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:41PM (#17357659)
I think it's important to start talking about, and acknowledging, that nearly every second of the average person's life is thinking about something that is within their own universe of their life's experiences.

So plausibly, this really was an innocent and understandable mistake. Maybe they grew up in a town full of white people, and maybe all of their friends and coworkers are white. I understand what they did is technically racist, but that's because of that particular combination of people. Let's use _this_ 'experience' of "racist", but not it's exact definition. For example:

- It was racist you forgot your mother in law's birthday (who you see once a year.)

- It was racists you didn't lift the toilet seat. (Edit: I grew up in a culture where it was offensive to not raise the seat)

Definition: Any unintentional side effect from not thinking about someone* outside of everything you've experienced, and presumably causing harm to that outsider.

* Usually this person is disadvantaged in some way. But almost everyone is disadvantaged in some way, thus neutralizing this particular point IMO.

Does that sound rational? I don't think it does.

The world is full of suffering, and I'm advocating people help and love the people they are surrounded by. If many people did that, it would be easier to recognize each other, where ever you come from. Why? Because hate will push away everything it is unfamiliar with, but love will accept everything it is unfamiliar with.

(Now meta argument, do I expect people to change? No. So I try accepting them instead.)

Re:The Machine Fired Me by wpietri on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:16PM (#17359853)
Again, something can be racism and something else.

> Maybe they grew up in a town full of white people, and maybe all of their friends and coworkers are white.

This is not an accident. All-white contexts in America are the result of personal and systemic racism. People who grow up in those contexts are, unsurprisingly, more likely to be personally biased and will regardless do things that further systemic racism.

People in that condition have a choice: they can either overcome their upbringing or they can continue to support white supremacy. If they do the latter, well, then they've made a choice. You can accept that if you want. I don't.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by Proziam on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:32PM (#17360848)
I don't think it's likely that all the folks in Vermont are racist or that the system of governance there is supremely racist - yet Vermont has an absolutely tiny percentage of non-white folks (3.1%)

Less than 15% of the U.S. is African American so it's not at all surprising that there are areas where there are very few black folks as a result. That's nobody's fault and shouldn't be described as racist because, well, it isn't.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by rmc on Thursday June 21, 2018 @07:13AM (#17363926)
3.1% is about 1 in 30 people. That's not that small. And this isn't 100 years ago, I'm pretty sure people in Vermont have seen a black face on TV/film.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by wpietri on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:32PM (#17361629)
This is historically ignorant. I don't blame you personally, because the American education system is very bad at covering America's racist history. But you're still basing your estimation of "likely" not on real data, but on what you'd like to be true.

If you'd like to learn more, start with Loewen's "Sundown Towns", which describes how hundreds and possibly thousands of towns across the US were turned and kept white:

https://www.amazon.com/Sundown-Towns-Hidden-Dimension-Americ...

These were known as "sundown towns" because non-white people had to leave by sundown or face violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town

These came about not because there were never any black people, but because white people indulged in violent ethnic cleansing. This happened most prominently during the Nadir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relatio...

He proves this quite clearly through census data, where places that used to be racially mixed suddenly got white and then stayed that way for decades.

He doesn't give any specific Vermont examples, but Vermont had a prominent Klan presence in the 1920s: http://vermonthistory.org/research/research-resources-online...

Later, as suburbanization happened, white supremacy was maintained more subtly, through means such as racial covenants: https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/discrimination-in-deed/C...

It's also not necessary for a lot of white people to be actively racist to preserve white supremacy. As is clear from Loewen's book, all it takes is a small number of people willing to be active (e.g., making threats, burning crosses) to drive off new black arrivals. The majority can be passively accepting of a racist system without lifting a finger.

But that doesn't mean they won't end up biased. White people who don't know many black people are more likely to be biased, and all-white towns produce people that are more likely to have racist views. (For more, see Loewen's Ch 11, "The effects of sundown towns on whites".)

Re:The Machine Fired Me by pc86 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @01:31PM (#17367321)
This is neat, in a conversation about the technical aspects of image recognition with webcams in low lighting conditions, you're talking about secession and the 3/5th compromise. Let's try to stay on topic.

> But deciding a product was good enough to ship without caring that it worked for black people requires the effective belief that black people didn't really count as people.

Nobody ever said "oh it doesn't work with black people? Who cares LOL." I was going to make a crack about mental gymnastics but this isn't even that. You're just making shit up at this point.

> When laziness just happens to have a blatantly racist outcome in a place where there is a centuries-long history of racism, Occam's Razor suggests the explanation is racism.

No, even using your sentence here you admit the cause is laziness but then try to reframe it to racism because that fits your world view. Just like the fact that we're talking about webcams and you're talking about the 3/5th compromise and the American justice system.

Is there institutional/structural racism in the US? Absolutely. Webcams aren't a good example of it, sorry.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by wpietri on Thursday June 21, 2018 @02:30PM (#17367985)
I do not admit that "the cause" is laziness. Laziness is part of the causal chain, sure. Single-cause thinking is a poor way to do a failure retrospective.

We don't know whether or not they knew it didn't work with black people before they shipped it. Maybe they did and dismissed it with technical hogwash, as you are here. Maybe they did and decided it was an ok flaw. Maybe they didn't know because the company doesn't have any black employees and nobody though to test it on black people because the people in charge don't know any. Or maybe they do and just don't care. There are many possible paths to this decision, but any of them demonstrates systemic racism.

And this is on topic, because the broader topic is social implications of technology.

As an aside, your attempt to narrowly define the topic so racism can't even be spoken of is a pretty typical move from people experiencing white fragility: http://libjournal.uncg.edu/ijcp/article/view/249

Re:The Machine Fired Me by tgdenominator on Thursday June 21, 2018 @06:40PM (#17369849)
Seeing someone interact with others after drinking enough kool-aid to fill a pool is actually pretty entertaining. Thanks, I needed a break from work.

Speaking of work, have you tried testing your definition of racism on non-white subjects and products, such as Black Entertainment Television? It doesn't hold up very well.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by wpietri on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:32AM (#17373793)
My definition of racism is pretty standard among people who study it. I'm talking about a societal power system, like capitalism or communism. The US was undeniably racist to start out; black people were property, and only white men could vote. The level of white supremacy has declined some since then, but hasn't been eliminated. And it has been going back up in the last few years.

You could mean two things by "testing your definition of racism on non-white subjects": in the US or elsewhere. Either way, yes, of course I have. When going elsewhere it's necessary to speak of "the dominant racial group", and that can be helpful here too. So taking BET, we can ask questions like, "What effect are they having on non-dominant racial groups?" And, "Do their actions tend to increase or decrease the racial power imbalance?"

I'm not much of a TV person, so I'm not familiar with their shows. But I took a look: https://www.bet.com/shows.html

My first impression is that they are having positive effects on a non-dominant racial group, and are acting to decrease the racial power imbalance. Therefore, no, they are not racist.

Since you are anonymous person with a new account turning up to be a dick about the topic of racism, I presume your question was entirely insincere. But just in case, I hope you find the answer useful.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by krapp on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:03AM (#17354538)
> That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it.

It can be both. An attitude that considers facial recognition software acceptable if it only recognizes light-skinned people is both lazy and racist. Only choosing to test on light-skinned people is racist because doing so assumes dark skinned people are an exception or an outlier, rather than an equally valid part of the set of "human faces."

Re:The Machine Fired Me by v_lisivka on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:39AM (#17354785)
Whites have dark skin at the end of each summer.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by krapp on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:46AM (#17354841)
True, but that doesn't really contradict the premise of my comment.

The assumption of ones own race being the default color for humans (rather than an arbitrary value) that leads to facial recognition software being trained on a data set so narrow that the resulting software can't even recognize skin colors that diverge from that norm is as much about implicit, albeit unintentional, racial bias as it is the particular technical problems involved and the need for engineers to cut costs and meet deadlines.

It's not entirely racist, but racism is a component.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by sangnoir on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:52AM (#17354880)
> That's not racism, that's laziness. Or perhaps just being a bad engineer, if you want to be more cynical about it.

I wasn't ready to admit the genius of the show before, but I am now: what you said is quite close to a line from the same episode (said by the sociopathic boss, Veronica) when told by the protagonist that the sensors were effectively racist "[...] it's actually the opposite of racist, because it's not targeting black people. It's just ignoring them. [company] insist the worst people can call it is "indifferent.""

Re:The Machine Fired Me by local_yokel on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:08PM (#17356667)
I agree. It's a well known problem where the training set isn't representative of the underlying population. While it can certainly be argued that the engineers should have recognized this deficiency and taken corrective action, I really don't understand why all the respondents to your post are so quick to assert racist intent based on clickbait headlines from Forbes.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by daotoad on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:39PM (#17358338)
It's not an active racism on the part of the engineers. It's way more subtle than that.

There could be a hidden assumption on the part of the engineering team that light-skin is "normal" and anything else is a special case. Nobody is saying "I hate black people" or anything of the kind.

Or, as happened with a voice recognition system a former employer used, it was tested on the engineering staff, who happened to be all male. As a result it didn't work well for most women who tried to use it. There was no intentional exclusion of women from the test data, and I'd argue, no intentional exclusion of women from the engineering teams. But it is reasonable to say that systemic sexism that excludes women from engineering careers helped this system fail.

These kinds of problems are difficult to solve, because they aren't active decisions on anyone's part. They evolve out of pervasive conditions, and unconscious biases. At root, the source is still racism, or sexism (or another form of discrimination).

Re:The Machine Fired Me by s73v3r_ on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:03PM (#17357201)
Because it is racism. It is ignoring a large swath of humanity based on the color of their skin. You may not want to think of it as racism because it's not the burn a cross on their lawn type of racism, but it's still systemic racism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by pc86 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @01:35PM (#17367357)
> It is ignoring a large swath of humanity based on the color of their skin.

No, it's an insufficiently sensitive contrast filter combine with too narrow a training set. Screaming racism at everything that is even marginally approaching the topic of race detracts from real racism and ignores the actual issue here - shitty software.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by skywhopper on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:06AM (#17354972)
But laziness around something that dispropotionately impacts people based on their race is racist. If you know your system has a harder time training against non-white faces, and you choose to train it only against white faces to be lazy, that's still explicitly racist. This isn't even a case of negligent racism ("oh well I didn't know my system wouldn't work for people with darker skin because only my white coworkers tried it out"). The example here is a case of the engineer explicitly deciding to avoid the harder case of darker skinned individuals, knowing that the results would be poorer for those individuals, and thinking it doesn't matter if the system doesn't work well for people with darker skin. That is explicit racism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by JakeAl on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:53AM (#17355313)
Skin color is not synonymous with race. Every race has people that span a wide range of skin tones, and skin tone fades with age, so you may as well be arguing it's ageism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by dagw on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:59AM (#17354503)
That's not racism, that's laziness.

If the system had failed for with people with different hair color rather than skin color would they have been equally lazy?

Re:The Machine Fired Me by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:02AM (#17354941)
If it was hitting the same percentages? Very likely yes.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by pc86 on Thursday June 21, 2018 @01:35PM (#17367363)
What else would they have been?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by drb91 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:57PM (#17357118)
Actually, even if it is accidental or subconscious, I'd say this is a perfect example of systemic racism--racist behavior (I'm referring to an algorithm/device specifically here, which you can safely call objectively racist) which is normally within society's acceptance level which, when magnified to a societal scale, is no longer acceptable. Another symptom of this illness is that you might not even notice as a member of this system the system is broken if you're white, but you would if you're black.

Personally, I think it could be understandable people didn't consider race when developing facial recognition technology, especially when we've only had mainstream awareness of this for under a decade and many people live in racially homogeneous or dominated cultures. However, I don't think it's acceptable for organizations, and the time when you can safely say you didn't understand biased learning data will be over soon. There are considerations you need to make scaling your tech from personal project to something the public will consume.

Also, the day will come when computers can point out racist stuff better than the average human can now, albeit with a high false positive rate. I say this because it's relatively easy; even if you only count a subset of tweets talking about racism as not trolling, that's still a shockingly high number of meaningful things about the world many people aren't seeing.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by JJMcJ on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:59PM (#17361467)
Let's just say that if a system didn't recognize white people's faces, it probably wouldn't be viewed as "done".

If it's not worth the trouble to see if your system works for non-whites, that's beyond lazy.

Like the soap dispensers that don't work for dark skinned people.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by TuringNYC on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:16AM (#17355034)
It is racism to realize the negative aspects to other races, nevertheless pitch it as universally functional, and push the cost/pain to other races. Laziness is some of it, some of it is the realization that only other races bear the brunt of the cost.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by rmc on Thursday June 21, 2018 @07:10AM (#17363910)
If it doesn't occur to you that there are black people, or you are too lazy to test against then, then that is racism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by s73v3r_ on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:00PM (#17357157)
No, that is racism. It's not burning a cross on someone's lawn racism, but flat out ignoring a large swath of humanity is racism.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by nitrogen on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:53AM (#17356509)
Most cheap cameras actually don't filter out IR; it often shows up as blue or purple. You can use this fact to see if an IR remote is working -- just shine it at your cellphone camera or webcam. Whether there's enough IR sensitivity to be able to illuminate a face is another question.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by analyst74 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:43PM (#17357010)
I find this phenomenon of protecting oneself from being called racist fascinating. Your opinion is not exactly racist, but you had to bring up another minority, in case someone accuses you?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by e40 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:30PM (#17358220)
I loved that show so damn much. I was crushed when it was canceled.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by mozumder on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:44AM (#17354827)
Black Mirror IS a comedy. Nothing in it is realistic.

Don't take it seriously.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by rando444 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:48AM (#17354855)
Just because nothing in it is realistic, does not make it a comedy.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by mozumder on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:33AM (#17355153)
Just because two sentences are next to each other, does not make it conditional on the first.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by jexah on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:44AM (#17355232)
You're right, it's not always the case, but in that format the second sentence is usually a justification of the first. Also, Black Mirror is not a comedy.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by mozumder on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:57PM (#17357127)
Every time I watch it I'm laughing my ass off. It's definitely not serious, or even satirical.

Most sci-fi has the problem of trying to model a situation with limited social scope. The fact that they never turn out true is because society has social safeguards to prevent it from happening that the writers don't model.

1984 is also a comedy.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by xaedes on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:17PM (#17358074)
We call it a comedy when it _intends_ to make people laugh. Just because _you_ laugh about it, doesn't mean that it also intends this. I know you could now say that they actually intend it. But I doubt that. (X)
Re:The Machine Fired Me by mozumder on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:44PM (#17360073)
Being absurd is being intentionally comedic.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by doc_gunthrop on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:57AM (#17352681)
Reminds me of Frank Herbert's ominous (fictional) prophecy:

“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”

Re:The Machine Fired Me by rixed on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:34AM (#17354361)
Sounds like what Brecht once wrote about the luddites, something along the lines of: "you appear to be dominated by machines only because there are men hiding behind those machines" (can't retrieve the actual quote now, was on a treatise on theater)
Re:The Machine Fired Me by greedo on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:12AM (#17355008)
Time for Mentats! The Butlerian Jihad seemed so unrealistic when I first read Dune, but now it seems prophetic.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by zby on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:53AM (#17353405)
I have noticed that people following machine orders is also used by corporations to force customers to give up on their rights. I have a minor dispute with one of our communication providers and it is a real nightmare - according to the law I have the right, but the system does not include it and people don't know what to do in this case. Some other people higher up just wait until I give up.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by daxelrod on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:56AM (#17354902)
A leasing agent for my apartment put the wrong (slightly cheaper) rent amount on our lease, and only realized as we were moving in, well after all parties had signed.

She told us we needed to sign a corrected lease because there was no way to make the rent billing system charge us the lower amount.

We explained to her that the building’s legal obligations trumped what their computer would do. They figured out how to change the amount in their billing system.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by otakucode on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:18AM (#17356199)
I encountered that several years ago. Federal law says that if you request a cable box with an enabled Firewire port, cable companies are required to provide it. I requested such a box from my local Time Warner cable TV company. They had no clue what I was talking about and said their software had no facility to let them enable the Firewire port on my box. So I called the State Utilities Commission in my state. I explained the situation, and that the cable company was violating federal law. The next day I got a call from the owner of the local Time Warner franchise personally. They managed to find a way once they were in danger of having their license to operate in the state revoked.

"Make game of that which makes as much of thee." is a quote from a book thousands of years old (The Rubiyat by Omar Khayaam) but it is as applicable as ever.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by cdubzzz on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:02AM (#17354944)
Contact the FCC: https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us

My wife is a victim of the OPM breach and had someone apply for (and in some cases open) numerous accounts with her data. One of those accounts was with T-Mobile and after three months of phone calls and strongly worded bills we filed an FCC complaint. A T-Mobile rep called us two days later and the issue was resolved (or so it seems anyway, haven’t heard anything in the past few weeks).

Re:The Machine Fired Me by Rjevski on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:26AM (#17353757)
Don’t pay the invoice until they either fix it or let it go (they can’t go to court as you’re in the right from a legal point of view).

That’s what I always do with shitty utility providers - it’s funny how the “computer says no” excuse suddenly disappears when they start to be out of pocket.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by UweSchmidt on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:09AM (#17353943)
Careful, automatic processes can give you trouble, cancel your service or hurt your credit rating.

I recommend complying with the process, mentally account for the extra costs when you sign up, stick to defaults and avoid complexity whenever possible.

On the other hand nowadays companies do respond to complaints much better than a few decades ago if you file complaints through their websites. Taking it to social media may also result in quick and drastic measures.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by Rjevski on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:15AM (#17353971)
> cancel your service

By the time I arrive to this stage, I’ve already got a replacement lined up and all it takes is to flick a switch.

> hurt your credit rating

From experience, the problem eventually gets resolved and they cancel any black marks on your credit report. But personally I never cared about mine anyway.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by vinceguidry on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:40AM (#17354802)
The other thing about credit reports is that 1) companies not in the business of providing credit have an uphill battle to claim that you're indebted to them, and 2) you can challenge such things, and the law requires them to show evidence.

Due process has favored debtors for some time now, but the information isn't published, leaving shady "credit cleanup" companies to charge hundreds to do what you can do in many cases simply by logging into a website.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by wolfi1 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:59AM (#17354513)
that could pose a problem in some European countries as it is very easy to get a court order (no humans involved, it`s an automated process) to collect the money from you. it would be your duty to prove you don`t have to pay.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by workinthehead on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:27AM (#17355693)
Interesting, as the duty of proof is the other way around in the US, but usually it seems to be the EU that favors the little guy.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by wolfi1 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:49PM (#17359076)
the burden of proof would be on the plaintiff`s side, but as I said as it`s automated the defendant has to act, if he fails to do so in a certain amount of time the court order becomes effective
Re:The Machine Fired Me by dewiz on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:32AM (#17353795)
That’s very common with badly designed anomaly detection systems. Customer support say the system has detected something wrong in the customer behavior and ask, often order, to stop or fix whatever they’re doing. Neither customers nor support are able to intervene
[dead]
Re:The Machine Fired Me by pc86 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:48AM (#17354437)
How?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by teekert on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:04AM (#17353209)
So true. Recently I was at the pharmacy, the doctor wrote a wrong prescription and my wife was in the car having a hefty migraine. They wouldn't give me the drug even though they could see she has been using it for years and the wrong prescription could be solved afterwards. I think such people will be the first to be completely replaced by robots, I for sure wouldn't notice the difference, in fact I expect a robot to be inhuman so it would be less frustrating.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by ReverseCold on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:07AM (#17353225)
Okay this example makes sense. No prescription == no drugs (especially for painkillers and other things that people abuse).

If you think this is a bad thing, then it's an organizational problem and has nothing to do with computers.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by teekert on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:11AM (#17353241)
If you are a human and you can see in the computer that the prescription is regularly updated and you can even call the doctor if you doubted it. You can even check the prescription afterwards and if my story doesn't check out, do something about it. The migraine was pretty bad, imo it was like not treating a broken leg because of a missing insurance card or something.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by kbenson on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:04PM (#17356627)
There are very good reasons why a doctor might decide to change a prescription for someone, and listening to the patient over the doctor in some of those cases would not only be a bad idea, it could be potentially fatal or cause long lasting problems.

For example:

- Evidence of abuse of a drug.

- A second prescription which interacts badly with the first.

- Changing health circumstances (pregnancy, some sort of deficiency, failing internal systems, etc).

The correct thing to do in a case like this is to stop and coordinate with the prescribing physician. Having a pharmacist look at some change compared to how things were done prior and have a patient tell them it's a mistake and they should ignore it without consulting the prescribing physician is almost never a good idea.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by jexah on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:47AM (#17353851)
You're really blaming the wrong people. Blame the doctor for screwing it up, your wife for not checking the prescription, or the government for creating/enforcing the relevant laws that would have put not only the chemist but their entire franchise underground for "doing the right thing". Laws are laws, broskie, don't expect everybody to break them for you.

If the migraine was really bad (bad enough to cause tangible damage) maybe you should sue the doctor for damages, or if it wasn't that bad, report him/her and go somewhere else next time.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by ajeet_dhaliwal on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:01AM (#17353910)
So in effect he's right to suggest the pharmacist should just be replaced by a robot because you would have them follow the rules no matter what with all humanity stripped out. If there was more than one pharmacist available it wouldn't have killed him/her to go and take a look at the wife in the car.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by lmm on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:24AM (#17354315)
The pharmacist can, and should, use their human judgement to refuse to dispense drugs even when prescribed. But they don't and shouldn't use their human judgement to dispense drugs that weren't prescribed; this is by design and for good reason. It's a two-person rule: you only get the drugs if both the pharmacist and the doctor formally agreed you should get them.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by rixed on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:40AM (#17354402)
The problem seems to be that the drug has indeed been prescribed, but the writing was erroneous. This is not about "should we freely sell drug", but about "should we use human judgment in addition to paper orders".

Clearly, some commenters are also trying hard to be robot-swappable. :)

Re:The Machine Fired Me by lmm on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:47AM (#17354847)
The prescription was for the wrong drug, i.e. the wrong drug was prescribed and conversely the right drug was not prescribed. The pharmacist can, should, and quite possibly did use their human judgement to refuse to dispense the wrong drug, even though it was prescribed. But by design they don't have the authority to dispense the right drug without getting a doctor to formally prescribe it.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by barkingcat on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:17PM (#17356760)
I really wouldn't be surprised if it turned out a large percentage (over 35%) of hacker news commenters originate from robots / ai / chatbots being trained / tested surreptitiously.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by jexah on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:24AM (#17355091)
It doesn't matter if the pharmacist thinks -- or even knows -- that they are doing the "right thing", pharmacists cannot prescribe medications. Their life would be over in a heartbeat if anybody ever found out that he or she legally provided a drug to somebody without a prescription. Additionally, pharmacists should use their best judgement to deny valid prescriptions, similar to how a bartender would use their best judgement to not sell alcohol to a customer.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by acomjean on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:38AM (#17354391)
You are right and make an interesting point. Part of the advantage of dealing with a human is that one hopes they can deal with whatever strange problem it thrown at them.

If you can’t deal with corner cases, or have none than leveraging rules/software is the way to go.

I think of vending machines and parking meters as automation of simple tasks, but what to do when they break?

I think google tries this by trying to “automate all the things”. It works most times but when it goes wrong it makes it very frustrating to correct.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by teekert on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:01AM (#17354526)
When they (the machines) break, a human should be able to override, i.e., I was once stuck in a malfunctioning parking garage (no ability to pay, barrier stayed shut), so I lifted the barrier and let everyone out without paying. This could be illegal, but keeping me in a parking garage without telling me how long it will take is also a crime. Please don't make human un-openable parking garages, ever (meaning: don't let a robot decide whether a human is allowed to leave).
Re:The Machine Fired Me by jexah on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:39AM (#17355206)
This is a completely different scenario to the one described above. You yourself are potentially breaking the law (if the boom gate is damaged, assisting in potential theft of services rendered, etc) to prevent your car being stuck in the parking lot (which very likely has a clause in the conditions of entry, so may not be illegal).

The two key points are that you are committing the crime yourself, not asking somebody else to, and that it is in fact only potentially a crime, and even then it's relatively minor, and could be argued strongly in court.

You are not asking somebody else to illegally sell you opioids (for example) with no prescription. From what it sounds like, nobody was in real danger, just pain, and you expect people to risk everything they've spent their entire life working for just to prevent an hour of pain for some stranger?

Re:The Machine Fired Me by teekert on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:31AM (#17355728)
We don't have a suing culture so much here so I don't think that is relevant. Also, I feel that medical personnel should minimize suffering to the best of their ability, they don't take an oath swearing to fully emulate an emotionless robot.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by jexah on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:29PM (#17360416)
Get a grip on reality dude. Nobody is going to risk their livelyhood to stop somebody being in relatively[0] moderate pain for an hour. The fact that you expect strangers to do this for you is really very selfish.

Not sure how suing is related to the comment you replied to. If a chemist hands out drugs to people without prescriptions and they get caught, they will lose their licence, be barred for life, lose their store, get a massive fine, and in some cases serve jail time. Nothing to do with suing.

[0] Relative to medical emergencies.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by teekert on Thursday June 21, 2018 @05:29AM (#17363434)
If so, these people should be replaced by robots asap.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by mschuster91 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:49AM (#17354113)
> If there was more than one pharmacist available it wouldn't have killed him/her to go and take a look at the wife in the car.

Depending on the jurisdiction, pharmacists aren't allowed to prescribe stuff or treat people on the spot. That's business of a (licensed) doctor.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by pqs on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:19AM (#17355600)
My mother had a pharmacy and she often called the doctor to solve this issues. The doctor is a phone call away, and the pharmacist job is to do whatever he cans to improved the patient's illness.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by PurpleBoxDragon on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:28AM (#17354705)
In which case you blame the programmer who wrote the code, not the employee following the software. Your idea of deferring to the rules over all common sense is the core of the problem. It doesn't matter if we are talking about government rules over which they'll enslave you if you break them or corporate rules over which they'll fire and blacklist you if you break them.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by Dylan16807 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:08AM (#17354977)
Note the irony in saying the pharmacist should have trusted the machine while ignoring the established rules.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by marvin on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @07:37AM (#17354382)
Hell, most humane countries do it like that way already. My pharmacist parents in Norway wouldn’t have a problem with this, based on anecdotes over the years.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by vsl on Thursday June 21, 2018 @03:19AM (#17362850)
That's more about CYA. The pharmacist would risk a lot by giving out the medicine without proper prescription. They may know it's OK, but they won't risk an overzealous prosecution, for example.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by s73v3r_ on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:09PM (#17357268)
Except you are asking that pharmacist to break the law. If they got fired afterward, would you be the one to take them and their family in?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by s73v3r_ on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:08PM (#17357259)
I wouldn't do that either. Because if I did that in the wrong instance, I would be fired. I'm sorry for your wife's migraines, but it's not worth me losing my ability to support my family.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by sigil on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:15AM (#17352756)
See also the 1985 film “Brazil,” where a fly stuck in a printer (a bug!) sends a SWAT team after one Mr. Buttle instead of one Mr. Tuttle.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by btschaegg on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:33AM (#17353800)
A classic! :)

  Mistake? *chuckles* We don't make mistakes!

  *crashing sound as an improvised plug for the new hole in the ground falls straight through*

  Bloody typical! They've gone back to metric without telling us!
Re:The Machine Fired Me by hugi on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @04:37AM (#17353568)
Recently we had a lot of tourists drive through the unfinished tunnel Vaðlaheiðargöng (Iceland) because Apple Maps already marked it as part of Route 1. So we had people drive a workers' road past multiple signs banning entrance, and then drive on gravel through a tunnel filled with heavy machinery and workers. Quite funny.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by bewo001 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @05:49AM (#17353859)
Well, Iceland has a lot of gravel roads so they might assume that this is normal..
Re:The Machine Fired Me by duxup on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:27AM (#17352809)
In the book Catch 22 the character "Major Major Major" is made a ... Major, I belive due to an IBM computer error.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by robterrell on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:06AM (#17355438)
And he can’t get promoted to captain!
Re:The Machine Fired Me by ionwake on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:44AM (#17353115)
Good Catch
Re:The Machine Fired Me by duxup on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:22PM (#17361587)
The best there is.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by erl on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:38AM (#17352858)
We are already there - "Death by GPS" is a concept today: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05/death-by-gps/?amp=1
Re:The Machine Fired Me by zaarn on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @03:05AM (#17353211)
The problem isn't that people refer to a machine as authority but that the process has no abort button.

When you design business processes like these, firing, hiring or managing people always keep in mind something can go wrong. Always include an abort button to either stop or roll back the process.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by bena on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:30PM (#17357522)
There's a problem with the "human override" option as well. Make it too easy to override and then the system just doesn't matter anymore.

It's basically the issue we're trying to solve, where to draw that line?

Re:The Machine Fired Me by zaarn on Thursday June 21, 2018 @12:16AM (#17362122)
The system is meant to automated a certain process, some business process among different people.

It does not loose meaning because it can be aborted if stuff goes FUBAR.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by JdeBP on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:06AM (#17353926)
I recommend reading the RISKS Digest. It has been a forum for this stuff for many years.

* http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/risks/

Re:The Machine Fired Me by haskellandchill on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:33PM (#17360458)
Phenomenal, I'm late to the party. Glad there is party.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by throwaway43532 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @10:16AM (#17355567)
> The human tendency to defer to authority may never be as terrifying as when that authority is held by an uncaring machine with a couple bugs.

To this observation I highly recommend E.M. Forster's The Machine Stops, first published in 1909(!).

[0] http://www.ele.uri.edu/faculty/vetter/Other-stuff/The-Machin...

Re:The Machine Fired Me by da_chicken on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:34AM (#17356338)
> people driving into lakes because their GPS told them to

That one has actually happened: http://bgr.com/2016/05/17/car-gps-mapping-directions-lake/

It's a little unfair, though. There was heavy rain, fog, and a second article [0] says it was also in the middle of the night. The photo there also does make it look easy to mistake as a road.

[0]: http://torontosun.com/2016/05/13/woman-follows-gps-ends-up-i...

Re:The Machine Fired Me by at-fates-hands on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:51AM (#17356488)
Didn't this happen in an Office episode?

I remember Dwight and Michael arguing in Michael's car over whether the GPS was right as it kept telling them to go right which was directly into a lake.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by checkdigit15 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:56AM (#17356545)
Yep:

"Dunder Mifflin Infinity" - Season 4 Episode 3/4

Re:The Machine Fired Me by kbenson on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:54AM (#17356514)
Oh, yeah. From that picture, it took me a second to realize I wasn't looking at a wet road-top and instead water in a lake, which is very close to the same height as the surrounding road.

I'm glad it wasn't me driving there at night and in the rain, I could see myself making the same very bad mistake.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by c12 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @04:00AM (#17353424)
"We were only following orders" suddenly feels even more scary when they come from a computer and not a human.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by lmm on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @04:19AM (#17353495)
It shouldn't. Blindly following orders from humans has much the same results.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by c12 on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:46AM (#17354094)
When the orders come from a human then there is someone who is ultimatly responsible, someone to put through the courts, someone to throw in jail.

When the orders come from a computer. Will any of that happen, will there be someone responsible?

Re:The Machine Fired Me by otakucode on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @01:16PM (#17357350)
Where the orders comes from has nothing to do with anything in terms of who is held responsible. The person who acts is responsible. That they were following orders is not a valid excuse. This was what the Nuremberg Trials established for us. It doesn't matter if someone told you to do something, you still have the only capacity to make the decision whether you actually do it or not.

Humans are very quick to abdicate their own moral authority, and it is the most repugnant human impulse that exists. If someone puts a gun to your head, and tells you to kill someone or die, you are still responsible for whoever you kill. Others might consider your actions understandable, even forgivable, but you're still a murderer and still one who valued their own life above anothers.

If you do something because you were "just doing your job", that's even worse. That's exactly identical to doing something for money. Which is usually looked very poorly on by society.

Re:The Machine Fired Me by yipbub on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @09:56AM (#17355335)
yeah, but punitive justice is the least consequential thing in those situations. The major reason you'd punish someone there is to stop someone from willfully repeating the scenario. There exists a path for learning and prevention in automated systems too.

The danger I see is the stifling of potential human subjective decisions. That broad decisions will be made and carried out without a sanity/humanity check by humans.

I think measures should be put in place for a guarantee of human intervention in the case of situational anomaly or system error as well as an emphasis on redress.

Since automation scales and a human workforce doesn't, a guarantee of human intervention might not be practically possible.

Anyone have any ideas on how this kind of thing might be mitigated?

Re:The Machine Fired Me by haskellandchill on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @06:35PM (#17360487)
I think it won't be mitigated, given my experience working as a data scientist. It will be ignored because it is profitable to ignore it. If we slowed down and figured out how to make machines mimic human empathy before we make them make decisions it could be mitigated, but we won't do that. Ask your boss about it.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by wowtip on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @08:59AM (#17354916)
"It looks like the devs didn't do their job properly..."?
Re:The Machine Fired Me by smacktoward on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @12:36PM (#17356931)
But from the other side of the system, it's perfect. Now everybody involved can say they were just following orders!
Re:The Machine Fired Me by bsenftner on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @02:50AM (#17353143)
A lot of biometric technologies are treated like authorities by "our authorities" to a ridiculous fault.
Re:The Machine Fired Me by at-fates-hands on Wednesday June 20, 2018 @11:59AM (#17356570)
Also very similar to the classic "forgotten employee" story which made the rounds in the early aughts:

https://sites.google.com/site/forgottenemployee/

Re:The Machine Fired Me by pure-awesome on Thursday June 21, 2018 @11:06AM (#17365803)
Oh man! I just read that, and absolutely loved it. A pretty brilliant piece of writing.

Reminds me of the Google Ultron IT guy story, from 2014 (I think? How do 4Chan/American dates work?)

https://imgur.com/a/iJD8f