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Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by daveguy on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:36AM (#17165590)
Technology like this is why The Wall is a waste of money when it comes to deterring drug trafficking.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by ShorsHammer on Sunday May 27, 2018 @02:46AM (#17165808)
Jamming drones is easier than you think, the new battleground will be autonomous flying to avoid trivial radio/gps jamming. MIT has open source code for this already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qah8oIzCwk

https://github.com/andybarry/flight

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by red75prime on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:35AM (#17165922)
Battleground? Are there many problems with Kalman filtering and preloaded maps of a path?
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by microcolonel on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:37AM (#17165925)
Not only that, GPS jamming can be overcome with better antennas (phased arrays of such, even retrofitted to existing commodity receivers) to eliminate jammers which are not more-or-less directly above the vehicle.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by ShorsHammer on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:03AM (#17166409)
Excellent article on anti-jamming:

http://gpsworld.com/anti-jam-technology-demystifying-the-crp...

> CRPAs work by exploiting spatial diversity; that is, making use of the fact that the desired satellite signals, and the unwanted jamming signals, generally arrive from different directions. In simple terms, you create a spatial filter, one that removes signals that arrive from particular directions, whilst letting through signals from other directions. To achieve this, rather than use a single antenna, we use an array of antenna elements.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:56AM (#17165973)
Well, yes. Maps aren't accurate (when it comes to moving foliage, as in the video, there maps are out of date within seconds, less in strong winds). Maps don't include many things that are moving, and maps just generally don't work very well at small scales (like the scale of an, even a large, UAV landing)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by bjoli on Sunday May 27, 2018 @06:01AM (#17166270)
How about going low tech and just use gyroscopes to keep steady and fly in a straight line until it is unlikely that any jamming might occur?
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by ryanmarsh on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:25AM (#17167220)
The SR71 had a combination of star and inertial navigation. I imagine someone could build an astro-inertial navigation system today without much trouble.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by salty_biscuits on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:37AM (#17166661)
Gyros drift pretty quickly (the cheaper the quicker). Yaw is hard to pin down when flying in a straight line even with a dual frequency gps.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by ShorsHammer on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:06AM (#17166415)
Probably fine and less vulnerable in situations like simply trying to get a few km over a wall on flat ground. Far more complicated over terrain and trying to fly low.

Off-the-shelf open source consumer drone flight controllers already have enough sensors to achieve what you suggest.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by a012 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:31AM (#17165916)
I'm no expert but how autonomous works if there's no positioning methods involved? (To avoid GPS/GLONASS,... Jamming)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by microcolonel on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:34AM (#17165920)
Fused dead reckoning can work, especially if you mix camera and IMU (or more than one IMU!).
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by tfolbrecht on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:13AM (#17166584)
Surprised nobodies mentioned celestial sensors.

Celestial navigation by imaging the sky, and combining that data with a clock and compass.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by varjag on Sunday May 27, 2018 @09:38AM (#17166841)
Very unreliable for ground based systems.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by pjc50 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @04:59AM (#17166120)
Cruise missiles have an optical terrain-following system, that would be a viable approach for drones.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:30PM (#17168672)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by fulafel on Sunday May 27, 2018 @10:31AM (#17166992)
Another technique not mentioned yet: compss augmented with local magnetic field features.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by omegant on Sunday May 27, 2018 @05:09AM (#17166145)
Inertial navigation and maps.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:59AM (#17165981)
See the paper, but TLDR: stereo video depth sensing combined with fading previous measurements (so if you detected an obstacle at 1 o'clock, 2 meters out 1 second ago, it is now very likely at 2 o'clock, 1.3 meters out. This way you can limit yourself to just detecting things 2 meters out)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by state_less on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:01AM (#17166550)
The war on drugs has been a big self inflicted wound. Including building a billions dollar wall to supposedly keep drugs (and people) out. If we sold the real thing under the prescription of a doctor or nurse technician, you wouldn’t fuel drug lords, deadly look-a-like drugs, deadly cutting agents and overdoses due to potency variability. That’s a better way to manage drug use than putting up walls and laws and pretending criminality matters to a dependent drug addicts.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by ferongr on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:04AM (#17166410)
You can shoot at drones with impunity, unlike people that you have to feed, house, process and eventually extradict if that's even possible.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by simonh on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:17AM (#17166597)
She the whole wall is going to be manned with anti-drone squads? If you’re manning the border, why do you need such a huge wall? Wouldn’t a fence provide better visibility?
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by noir_lord on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:34AM (#17166658)
Fence and tethered ballons with sensor packages underneath every few miles.

You have issues with weather affecting coverage but it would be a lot cheaper than a massive ineffective wall.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by simonh on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:08AM (#17167139)
So now we have hundreds of monitors checking wobbly camera images all the time trying to spot tiny drones in all weather and all times of day. How often do balloons need refilling? Aren’t balloons highly visible and extremely vulnerable? Has anything like this ever even been tried in practice?
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by timmaah on Sunday May 27, 2018 @11:28AM (#17167243)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by simonh on Tuesday May 29, 2018 @11:10AM (#17179831)
That's a high altitude aircraft defence system. We're discussing low altitude terrain level drones the size of a shoebox operating up to maybe 100m altitude, just enough to pop up over the wall. Air defence radar like that is going to be completely useless for this.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by blfr on Sunday May 27, 2018 @05:32AM (#17166200)
I doubt this is true. There is a readily available technology for beating greylisting for example. Any semi-configured mail server can do it. Yet greylisting alone stops majority of spam.

I expect the same effect for drug or people trafficking. While no barrier will stop everyone, and there are already drones and submarines designed for crossing well-protected borders, even fairly simple obstacles will stop or deter the majority of traffickers.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by icelancer on Sunday May 27, 2018 @02:40AM (#17165791)
Catapults alone are good enough technology to prove why the wall is an idiotic idea. The wall is an effigy anyway for Trump, while he may actually believe that it's a good idea, that's not how it functions in reality. It's an anchor, a symbol, a thing to point to that combats illegal immigration and is a symbol of nationalism.

Now Trump might actually think it's a good idea - and I actually think he does - so that's absurd. But realistically it operates as a political beacon, and one that's quite effective.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @04:09AM (#17166012)
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by spodek on Sunday May 27, 2018 @07:35AM (#17166486)
> Technology like this is why The Wall is a waste of money when it comes to deterring drug trafficking.

One of many many reasons. While it's sufficient, it's far from the top of the list.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by beagle3 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @02:03AM (#17165683)
The technology world progresses as an arms race. I'm quite sure that when these things are used to traffic drugs, a small version of [0] will be used to stop them.

[0] https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/neqvag/the-us-nav...

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @04:07AM (#17166007)
Heh, that's cute. The issue with that is that locating UAV's that are, say 50 meters above the deck, more than 1km from your detector is essentially impossible. Without a VERY dense detection infrastructure, catching these things is not going to happen.

Furthermore even though these lasers are very cheap, by army norms, to fire, they're still 600$ or so for a single shot. So shooting down drones will be expensive. Far more expensive than the drones themselves.

Third. Defense against a laser is easy (a mirror, essentially, though you need to know the frequency to get an effective one). I must say that I don't know why you'd try to defend a drone. I'd try to hide it, since that's so easy.

And while a rules-based autopilot is easy to disrupt using jamming, a learned autopilot is essentially impossible to fool into crashing. Maybe you can divert it, I guess.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by beagle3 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @04:43AM (#17166093)
> Without a VERY dense detection infrastructure, catching these things is not going to happen.

Not really, Where it matters, radars have been deployed that can easily find those things. I've seen live demonstrations in the mid 1980s (as in, a system protecting borders), and I bet the state of the art has advanced since then. IIRC it was a SAR system, but I'm not sure.

> Furthermore even though these lasers are very cheap, by army norms, to fire, they're still 600$ or so for a single shot. So shooting down drones will be expensive. Far more expensive than the drones themselves.

There are newer, weaker versions that are at ~$1/shot, that would still likely take down your average drone. Also, even $600 is not "far more" expensive than a modern drone that can carry things across the border; It is slightly more expensive, but (relatively speaking), super cheap and, since it is energy, fungible (that is, you don't spend it until you spend it, unlike e.g. missiles which have to be ready long beforehand)

> Defense against a laser is easy (a mirror, essentially, though you need to know the frequency to get an effective one). I must say that I don't know why you'd try to defend a drone. I'd try to hide it, since that's so easy.

That's the popular belief, but it is not actually true. A perfect mirror such as would be required would cost today significantly more than the drone itself, as in x10 to x100, if it is at all feasible (You can't have sharp edges, you likely need glass).

It is currently infeasible to mirror-cover missiles or rockets that cost a lot more than the drone, and the problems are (mostly) not about the projectile speed or heat.

> And while a rules-based autopilot is easy to disrupt using jamming, a learned autopilot is essentially impossible to fool into crashing. Maybe you can divert it, I guess.

Lasers can blind cameras even better than they do human eyes. What sensors is this autopilot going to depend on when it is vision and GPS blinded?

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by woodman on Sunday May 27, 2018 @05:29AM (#17166194)
> I've seen live demonstrations in the mid 1980s (as in, a system protecting borders), and I bet the state of the art has advanced since then.

Yup, long stare SAR hooked up to a DVR was a thing over 10 years ago - it could cover a lot of ground (like a large Iraqi city) with a resolution that would easily detect this drone.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @06:20AM (#17166313)
Are these the overhead not-quite-satellites you're talking about ? That would require a drone every 5 km or so.

Not - one drone. A drone in the air 24/7 every 5km for a border ~2000 km long.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by beagle3 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @06:43AM (#17166357)
The system I saw 30 years ago were more ground based and covered tens to hundreds of KMs.

But even if you need a drone every 5km (you don't). That's all of 400 drones, 800 if you want to have pairs doing charge-work duty. For an 2000km border guarding operation, that's really not much. An order of magnitude or two cheaper than the fence they would guard.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:35PM (#17167689)
How did that ground based system solve the horizon problem ? Drones don't fly very high, so you'd need one of these systems, say at 50 meters drone height, ~ every 50km.

That's probably worse than those drones watching from above, seeing as you'd need actual infrastructure at every interval. And, that'd be fixed infrastructure, with fixed blind spots.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by beagle3 on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:42PM (#17168073)
I don't know exactly how it worked (beyond IIRC that it was a SAR = Synthetic Aperature Radar), but I know for sure that it worked perfectly well.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by woodman on Sunday May 27, 2018 @03:16PM (#17168591)
Ground stations and aerostats.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by aphextron on Sunday May 27, 2018 @01:37PM (#17168032)
>Furthermore even though these lasers are very cheap, by army norms, to fire, they're still 600$ or so for a single shot. So shooting down drones will be expensive. Far more expensive than the drones themselves.

Where are you getting that $600 number? The laser in the article quoted is 150kW, which firing for a fraction of a second would be no more than a few dollars electricity.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by MikkoFinell on Sunday May 27, 2018 @08:17AM (#17166602)
> Furthermore even though these lasers are very cheap, by army norms, to fire, they're still 600$ or so for a single shot. So shooting down drones will be expensive. Far more expensive than the drones themselves.

What is the approximate cost of allowing the drone in?

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by zdkl on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:05PM (#17167485)
Depends if we assume they're smuggling or dropping explosives/something dirty.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by MikkoFinell on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:37PM (#17167698)
Suppose they are smuggling narcotics.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Monday May 28, 2018 @08:00AM (#17171957)
Okay, since economics has extensively studied the effect of narcotics on the economy (which is positive, or to put it another way: people will work, even fight, for drugs), we can clearly establish that the cost of missing a shipment is negative. For the economy, it is actually better to miss the shipment than to catch it.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by MikkoFinell on Monday May 28, 2018 @10:15PM (#17175982)
So allowing Mexican cartels to smuggle and sell, for example, heroin has a positive economic effect on society? I have to admit that's a fresh perspective.
Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by candiodari on Saturday June 02, 2018 @02:07AM (#17213006)
But you neglect to take into account the perspective I mentioned. Heroin certainly makes money go round and therefore helps GDP.

We just, as a society, have decided that the social cost is not worth it.

Re:Drones that can haul a 20-pound load for 500 miles and la... by dghughes on Sunday May 27, 2018 @12:24PM (#17167624)
You know it's funny with the way it is in the US I see it more as you walling yourself in than keeping others out.

We gunless, pot smoking, socialized medicine, immigrant accepting countries are on the "outside".

I do say that with tongue in cheek.