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Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Rjevski on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:14AM (#17143624)
> the first crews to Mars may have to deal with day after day of seeing nothing but the star-flecked blackness of space. At least they will probably have wifi.

If only. TCP at those latencies will be completely unusable.

Even if you manage to “trick” TCP with a middlebox that fakes ACKs you’d still be waiting minutes just for an HTTPS connection to establish.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by te0006 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:39AM (#17143828)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4838

"Delay-Tolerant Networking Architecture

This document describes an architecture for delay-tolerant and disruption-tolerant networks, and is an evolution of the architecture originally designed for the Interplanetary Internet, a communication system envisioned to provide Internet-like services across interplanetary distances in support of deep space exploration."

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by amelius on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:40AM (#17144382)
The problem is that servers on Earth may still fail with timeouts of different kinds above the networking level. For example, when requesting a video stream from Netflix, they may send some control packets along, and with round-trip times of >1 minute, the server may think that your client is behaving erratically, and disconnect you.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by TeMPOraL on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:18PM (#17145495)
Trying to interface with mainstream Internet, as it exists today, on an interplanetary ship won't work. Services people make these days expect constant bidirectional communication with relatively low latency (timeouting after mere seconds). On a mission like this, my first thought would not be Netflix, but Pirate Bay.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by maelkum on Friday May 25, 2018 @02:48AM (#17151210)
You mean "The most resilient torrent website in the Galaxy"? The TPB crew was ahead of the times.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by ss248 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:53AM (#17144542)
Easily solvable with something like proxy server on earth. Also i don't think it's smart to directly connect spaceship to the internet, so proxy should already be there in the original design.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by amelius on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:02AM (#17144662)
Still, this would break parts of the internet. Some protocols between clients and servers simply depend on timing.

As a simple example, consider a websocket connection and a client that tries to reopen the connection whenever it hasn't received a ping from the server in the last X seconds.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by derefr on Thursday May 24, 2018 @03:40PM (#17147551)
You wouldn't speak those protocols. You'd run your whole web-browser on Earth, and then the Earth<->Mars connection would be a minimum-bandwidth delay-tolerant DOM-event synchronization protocol† to allow you to see what that web-browser is rendering, and tell it to go click things/type things. Essentially like a graphical thin-client protocol (X11 or RDP), but the primitives would be HTML/CSS elements and binary assets in their native formats, rather than native controls and assets in decompressed texture format.

† I believe the Chromecast already operates on some variant of such a protocol. It'd just need to be modified to expect events to come from both sides, rather than only from the "sender" device. (And to remove any/all timeouts and keep-alive pings, of course.)

...or, you could just use https://mosh.org to shell into any random server and run shell commands (including, say, w3m. But even things like IRC would work this way!)

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by yoz-y on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:49AM (#17144502)
They could have a proxy that would buffer requests and received data and then use the delay tolerant protocol to send that to spacecraft I suppose?
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by dsr_ on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:11AM (#17144112)
Or you could use UUCP.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Isamu on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:45AM (#17144457)
Usenet will make a comeback! Over interplanetary UUCP.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by pc86 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:22AM (#17143704)
The obvious solution is to download the entire internet onto the spacecraft.

Seriously though, they'll need to have some sort of non-work, non-research activities to last the months it will take to get anywhere. You can only have sex and play Monopoly so many times.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by txcwpalpha on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:59AM (#17144620)
Civilization survived for ages without the internet, so I'm sure that we'll be able to find some way to keep people occupied while in space without it.

There's an ongoing/recurring experiment that NASA runs where a group of pretend-astronauts spends several months in a pretend Mars habitat with limited internet connection to Earth [1]. A podcast [2] was recently released where they go in-depth and interview the participants, and they touch on the whole "what am I supposed to do without the internet for 6 months?" issue a lot, but it never really seems to be that big of an issue. They do get bored, but most of the participants do stuff like learn a new language, study a textbook, or read a lot of novels. They also have a lot of "work" (like experiments etc) to keep them busy every day.

1: http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-mars-research-crew-emerges...

2: https://www.gimletmedia.com/the-habitat

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by PyroLagus on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:12PM (#17145403)
> Civilization survived for ages without the internet, so I'm sure that we'll be able to find some way to keep people occupied while in space without it.

Yes, but they weren't trapped in a metal box for years.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by overcast on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:33AM (#17143781)
Stock up on movies, and books? I mean that's pretty much the daily life of most people on this planet right now. Go to work, come home, engage in entertainment / sex. Beyond that, they can't really expect to be able to go outside and walk in the park. I think everyone is overestimating how much free time these guys will have. It's not the equivalent of sitting in a prison cell without mission responsibilities(experiments, chores, food).
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by monkeynotes on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:38AM (#17143816)
Exercise, books, chess, learn a language, I can think of plenty of stuff to do. People in prison sometimes enjoy the opportunity they have to focus on self improvement without the stress of having to make money for food/shelter.

Surely being on a craft in deep space is not that much different to being on a nuclear sub for months and months on end, smaller I guess.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by TeMPOraL on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:01AM (#17144027)
> People in prison sometimes enjoy the opportunity they have to focus on self improvement without the stress of having to make money for food/shelter.

If not for the criminal record being a huge factor in job applications later, I'd consider low-security prison to be a pretty good way of getting a sabbatical. It's almost like basic income.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by whatshisface on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:41PM (#17146998)
That's why "prison is punishment" is supported by some people - if there should exist a social self-improvement program, shouldn't we be giving it to those whose behaviors we want to encourage?
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by TeMPOraL on Friday May 25, 2018 @01:13AM (#17150789)
I think the issue here really is that regular life became so fucked up that prison seems like a better option. Isolation from participating in society should be punishment on its own, but it isn't, given how the participation looks for most people.

Reminds me of that time I remember from my childhood, when my dad had a friend in a hospital, and would go on ranting about how that friend has much worse food and entertainment than a typical prisoner...

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by pc86 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:22AM (#17144212)
In my state at least it's only for 7 years and only felonies or financial crimes. So you could always commit some non-financial misdemeanor and refuse to do any pretrial diversion program if you wanted, I guess.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by overcast on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:51AM (#17143937)
Considering submarines and prisons historically aren't coed, I'd say space travel fares a bit better for basic human needs.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by monkeynotes on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:37AM (#17144355)
Same sex relationships in prisons and subs aside, I actually think intimate relationships between a confined team that works and lives together is a bad idea. The team needs to depend on each other hugely and having the emotional demands of a intimate relationship could make things pretty difficult for those involved directly or indirectly.

Obviously relationships will develop regardless, you put people together they are going to do stuff. It's just a another challenge, in my mind, rather than an advantage.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by overcast on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:40AM (#17144379)
No different than sex in the workplace, clearly not a good idea, obviously it's going to happen. You hang out with someone long enough, they start being attractive.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by rdrey on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:41PM (#17145770)
Gimlet Media has a fun podcast following a year-long mock space mission. It explores the topic of relationships in a confined space, too: https://www.gimletmedia.com/the-habitat
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by yomly on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:50AM (#17143921)
Do the subs not have internet access or comms to outside world?
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by adrianN on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:00AM (#17144014)
Nuclear subs predate the Internet and I suppose you also want to limit your non-internet comm activity when sitting somewhere in the ocean waiting for a Russian first strike.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by roywiggins on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:04AM (#17144056)
Radio waves don't work great under the oceans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarine...

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by beamatronic on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:20AM (#17144851)
They do indeed perform a “sync” when they surface briefly.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by pronoiac on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:27AM (#17144924)
Cuba has "Paquete Semanal," a weekly-updated offline selective mirror of the Internet, passed around via hard drives: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/23/cuba-offline-i...
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by spapas82 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:01AM (#17144028)
If I was there I'd get a copy of all tutorials on https://github.com/danistefanovic/build-your-own-x along with my favourite batteries included programming language...

Actully, now that I think better of it I wouldn't need a batteries included language; having so much time I could implement the "batteries" myself!

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by jobigoud on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:41AM (#17143841)
VR headsets should be pretty decent by then, so a virtual walk in the park might be doable. Either on the treadmill or flying around trees in zero G.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by heartles on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:43AM (#17144417)
That makes me wonder, what kind of bandwidth could you get out there? Obviously latency will be bad, but if bandwidth is good enough they might still be able to download a data pack daily containing messages from loved ones, news, and the occasional movie
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Tepix on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:48PM (#17145852)
Lasers are getting more common for high speed space comms, i think the range isn't quite there yet to manage the Earth-Mars distance.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by ceejayoz on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:34AM (#17144331)
> The obvious solution is to download the entire internet onto the spacecraft.

This isn't as silly as it sounds.

Netflix already offers boxes ISPs can put in their datacenter. They store the entire library locally. https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/

Plop Wikipedia, Netflix, a daily snapshot of news, social media, Reddit, etc. on one and you've probably got enough for most folks.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by dtech on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:43AM (#17144426)
I believe it's not the entire library, bus a dynamically maintained cache of the most popular content over that connection.

More seriously, the problem is a static dump will get old very quickly, and keeping the internet "up-to-date" will require an enormous bandwidth to the spaceship.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by ceejayoz on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:58AM (#17144612)
> I believe it's not the entire library

https://gizmodo.com/this-box-can-hold-an-entire-netflix-1592...

> According to Netflix's own documentation, "An individual appliance can offload approximately 60%-80% of content requests depending on country catalog size," but when units start working in pairs, the storage size can exceed the size of Netflix's library for a region. And when this happens, the pair will use their excess storage to double up on stuff to help deal with high demand, or to make sure that if one fails, the other still has as much content as possible.

> More seriously, the problem is a static dump will get old very quickly, and keeping the internet "up-to-date" will require an enormous bandwidth to the spaceship.

No need to have the entire internet, just the most popular tenth of a percent, and just daily updates of what's new. https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html is currently downloading from Mars at 3 megabit. I'd expect Earth-to-Mars can be much faster than Mars-to-Earth from a car-sized orbiter with a small dish and limited power.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19950183 indicates optical Mars-to-Earth links of 1 Gbps soon, as well.

For Netflix, just send a new box every 3-6 months on the next rocket. The ISS already gets in-theater movies well before they're released on DVD, so you could even have release dates synchronized for no delay whatsoever!

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by rakoo on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:17PM (#17145483)
This is just like El Packete, aka a weekly dump of Internet content that's smuggled through to Cuba. Quick calculations:

- a typical flash drive would be 256GiB = 262144MiB = 268435456 kiB

- a week contains 7243600 = 604800s

=> A sustained connection of 450 kiB/s would be able to provide for the same kind of update as what people in Cuba do.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9719492

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by noonespecial on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:50AM (#17144516)
Even without "cryosleep" or the combined download of the world's entertainment aboard, the crossing will be a walk in the park compared to what explorers on early sailing ships endured.

Plus they probably won't get scurvy, so there is that.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by s0l1dsnak3123 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:02AM (#17144034)
> You can only have sex and play Monopoly so many times.

Speak for yourself! :D

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Casseres on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:15AM (#17144140)
Triopoly: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3758/triopoly

The description says "three-dimensional" but I would argue that it's two-dimensional and regular Monopoly is one-dimensional (linear). I think with a lot of time on your hands, you could make Monopoly truely three-dimensional with layers, and then even four-dimensional with cards/rules that rewind/fastfoward/fork time.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by TeMPOraL on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:21PM (#17145534)
4-dimensional Monopoly.

Reminds me of Continuum series. Is getting a seat in the Corporate Congress a victory or defeat condition?

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by ReverseCold on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:40AM (#17144384)
> four-dimensional with cards/rules that rewind/fastfoward/fork time

Or use a fourth spatial dimension, like a 4D Rubik's Cube or Miegakure.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by CM30 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @02:47PM (#17147047)
Download a ton of video games for the crew? I mean, ROMs for old systems are pretty easy to get by the bucketload, and careful use of stuff like GOG could get plenty of hours of DRM free entertainment for space travel related purposes.

But yeah, I think a sample of the internet stored offline could work. Maybe mix that with a P2P system that lets people post pages, social media posts, etc with other people on the ship, like you can with IPFS/Freenet/ZeroNet/whatever.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by alex_duf on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:12PM (#17145404)
Yeah, I would recommend embedding wikipedia, duolingo, a whole bunch of TV series and movies, the top 10% of spotify, the top 10% of youtube, and the top 10% of steam.

It's not perfect but assuming you can make a static version of these I'm sure you can fit it under a few terabytes.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Shivetya on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:05AM (#17144069)
The vetting system will have to be tailored very strict to insure they have the right personality and drive to survive such a mission. I could swear I have read of such testing to have taken place already to get some benchmarks to apply to actual travelers.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by OldSchoolJohnny on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:22AM (#17144210)
"right personality" I.E. boring, un-energetic people who have little sense of personal space.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by pc86 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:24AM (#17144243)
Yes because when I read the biographies of the the latest round of astronaut trainee, it's a total snooze fest.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by l1n on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:13PM (#17145419)
I'd say creative doesn't hurt: honestly, I know quite a few folks who would kill to run a D&D campaign or the like uninterrupted for months on end. And your players won't have other obligations to catch them off guard :)
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by cryoshon on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:25AM (#17144257)
hey, just because you wouldn't want to spend time around them doesn't mean that society doesn't need them.

i think your description is correct, but still. there's a lot to be said for the virtues of being eminently stable.

besides, the creative people can do the thinking for them from earth.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Thursday May 24, 2018 @01:51PM (#17146475)
They could write an operating system.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by galieos_ghost on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:18AM (#17144166)
Humans got by for thousands of years by simply gathering around the fire and telling stories. I think people could adapt to not having something(the internet) that humans didn't have at all until the last few decades.

It's fairly disturbing that some people can't even imagine surviving without modern conveniences.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by pc86 on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:24AM (#17144235)
Surely you can understand the differences between being a pre-agricultural tribe on the Serengeti with absolute freedom and being one of 5 people from probably 3-4 countries sitting in an aluminum tube the size of a small boat.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by lisper on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:25AM (#17144906)
Ironically, I cannot read the original article because I'm on a boat with a satellite internet connection. Ping times are only 750ms, but the web is still barely usable. I can read HN because it's text-only, but that's about it.

Visitors to Mars definitely won't be streaming Netflix. (But they'll probably have an SSD with a nice video library on it!)

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Retric on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:12AM (#17144119)
The internet is not limited to TCP/IP many phones browsers used a different protocol to connect to a proxy server which downgraded images to save bandwidth.

A similar approach means a website might take a 4+ minutes to start downloading but would finish in under a second and allow for video streaming etc.

Sure not all websites would work, but you could easily use Reddit, YouTube, and email.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by zingmars on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:45AM (#17144450)
I'm not so sure about YouTube. It's a huge distance, and the potential for data loss somewhere in the middle is pretty large and video consumes a lot of bandwidth. E-mail might be doable, but for reddit you would need A LOT of patience since it's going to take ages to load the cat picture you just clicked on.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by Retric on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:52AM (#17144533)
YouTube for a few people is fairly low bandwidth data, so they can probably just send several copies of the same stream preferably after re encoding it. Unless the packet loss is extreme it's not going to be an issue.

For Reddit, I would assume they would start downloading before you click on something. It eat's bandwidth, but again bandwidth is a non issue it's really just latency.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by adrianN on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:23AM (#17143718)
The interplanetary net will probably look a lot like Usenet.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by jpm_sd on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:44AM (#17143875)
This concept was excitingly dramatized (and lovingly parodied) in Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep", a 90s sci-fi classic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fire_Upon_the_Deep

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by TruthSHIFT on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:31AM (#17143771)
That sounds pretty great.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by jacobush on Thursday May 24, 2018 @09:26AM (#17143737)
Not bad!
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by lossolo on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:03AM (#17144041)
I don't think anyone is even considering to use TCP for interplanetary communication. You would use other protocol to communicate between planets and then only on earth you would switch to TCP or other protocol (depending what you would like to do) for fetching data from internet. Then get the data through proxy on earth and deliver it through this protocol to the other planet.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by soperj on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:40AM (#17145064)
>the first crews to Mars may have to deal with day after day of seeing nothing but the star-flecked blackness of space.

Yeah I don't understand this at all. Currently there is a Space Station circling the earth which people spend months at a time on, and they're busy as all hell. I doubt there will be nothing to do on a trip to Mars.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by NickBusey on Thursday May 24, 2018 @11:45AM (#17145122)
This is literally what IPFS (InterPlanetary File System) http://ipfs.io/ was created to solve.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by alex_duf on Thursday May 24, 2018 @12:36PM (#17145715)
Without knowing I would assume IPFS is built on TCP, wouldn't that be an issue?
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by lgierth on Saturday May 26, 2018 @06:32PM (#17164581)
More transports coming! IPFS is built on libp2p, and so far all available libp2p transports have been stream-oriented (TCP, Websockets, WebRTC, Onion, QUIC), but different types of transports are in the works: packet-oriented (UDP, Ethernet, WebRTC-unreliable) and store-and-forward.

Apart from that IPFS is built and layered in a way that makes the application layer independent of transport semantics - the network in terms of connections and hosts is abstracted away.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by carry_bit on Thursday May 24, 2018 @04:30PM (#17148109)
It's built on a generic interface so other protocols could be used.
Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by throwaway2016a on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:42AM (#17144411)
I'm guessing there would be some sort of CDN edge node with optimistic pre-caching.

I'm sure Netflix would be willing to set up a Netflix Open Connect box on Mars so at least they can binge watch Stranger Things and The Santa Clarita Diet.

Plus, put enough people (a few hundred?) on mars and and the content they could produce on their own local domain might be compelling.

Re:NASA is bringing cryosleep chambers out of fiction by blhack on Thursday May 24, 2018 @10:33AM (#17144320)
Ah, this actually seems okay to me. My web browser use is often opening several tabs in the background while I read the one I am on. A four minute delay for the background ones sounds fine (if I'm on my way to mars, that is. For my home connection obviously this would be awful).