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Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by rland on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:53PM (#16851677)
Is this worth it? Is this worth having the ability to pick between 10,000 different toasters via internet and have them delivered to your doorstep in 2 days?

Sometimes I look at society as a complete organ, with a hypothetical ability to make cohesive decisions for itself. And I think, it is making extremely self-destructive choices. All for the sake of satisfying the urge to buy more, at lower prices, with more convenience.

I wonder how much of the stuff in those warehouses is utter garbage that gets bought and used just once.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by Dylan16807 on Monday April 16, 2018 @02:58PM (#16851723)
We can have both. Amazon isn't going to implode if they pay some extra pennies for reasonable working conditions.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by tonyedgecombe on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:06PM (#16851777)
I don't think we can, companies like Amazon can't stop thinking about costs, it's in their DNA, it's what they live and breath.

Distribution is all about margins, if you can't keep costs low then you are toast, they are always utterly miserable places to work.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by Panoramix on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:19PM (#16851878)
You can force them to give provide conditions, or else they have to pay monumental fines / managers go to prison, etc. They will get the point.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by 794CD01 on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:25PM (#16851924)
Is the point to use robots? Because I'm pretty sure they already know that.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by Pyxl101 on Monday April 16, 2018 @09:18PM (#16854597)
The only way to make reasonable business decisions is to think about costs in any company.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by phil248 on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:19PM (#16851877)
Why would Amazon pay one more penny than they have to? To win a nice guys award? To get a warm, squishy feeling inside?

There is precisely one solution to this problem, and it is us electing leaders who change the rules in favor of the working masses, and enforce those rules mercilessly against exploitative employers.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by snoman on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:49PM (#16852107)
People deride unions, but collective bargaining has also been a very effective solution in the past.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by gkya on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:56PM (#16853196)
And that's why people deride unions. It's a defence mechanism.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by untog on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @01:00PM (#16860141)
...why would a defence mechanism for worker health be something people deride?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by gkya on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @01:59PM (#16860728)
To weaken it, so that it has less people and less power, and is not respected by the rest of the population.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by pjmorris on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:16PM (#16852307)
Why would anyone with sufficient money and organization to support a candidate support one who would change the rules in favor of the working masses?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by notduncansmith on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:53PM (#16853178)
For the same reason the mouth passes food to the stomach instead of keeping it to itself. The same reason we remove tumors from the human body. The whole organism (or in the case of human populations, superorganism) depends on nourishment flowing through the whole organism, not concentrating in small pockets.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by newfoundglory on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:41PM (#16852556)
Not everyone is a sociopath.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by saas_co_de on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:26PM (#16853408)
Just everyone with power
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by jessaustin on Monday April 16, 2018 @08:26PM (#16854313)
It's a process of selection...
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by nnain on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @02:45AM (#16856063)
> To win a nice guys award? To get a warm, squishy feeling inside? Why not? There are plenty of well-natured, kind people in the world. The price of being not nice is quite high.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by andrepd on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:17PM (#16853351)
Or stop putting band-aids in a fundamentally broken system, and change it altogether.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by mkolodny on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:41PM (#16853539)
To... what?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by andrepd on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:59PM (#16853693)
We haven't reached the peak of human wealth distribution systems with a byproduct of the fall of feudalism. Let's rack our brains, I'm sure we can figure something.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by Tiksi on Monday April 16, 2018 @07:37PM (#16853991)
Instead of being cryptic and beating around the bush, why not suggest a system if you've already racked your brain and figured something out?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by andrepd on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:16PM (#16853344)
No we can't, Amazon is popular because it's cheap because its hyperoptimised. And if not anything, there are other major issues other than worker's rights (which are bad enough).
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by sharpercoder on Monday April 16, 2018 @07:57PM (#16854128)
We don't need both. 10 toasters is more then enough to fulfill our needs.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by FullMtlAlcoholc on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @04:01AM (#16856408)
This is far from being unique to Amazon and from my experience constant pressures like these are prevalent in many low to mid-income paying jobs. I briefly worked as an Insurance Claims Representative for Farmer's Insurance. At the time, I lost my place, my car died and I was running low on funds so I had to take the first thing available. The job offered a free car and the first 4 weeks were spent in training. As someone who had previously only been exposed to the intricacies of white collar work, I found the whole experience to be quite eye-opening. Nearly every claims rep I met looked or acted as if they were chronically stressed, some hid it well while others wore it pretty plainly.

I later found out that they were always on edge because on any given day, one mistake could cost them their chance at a raise, bonus or any cost of living increase for the year. Farmer's had an elaborate points system used to determine eligibility for pay raises (basically cost-of-living increases). We were mobile and had to investigate 3 claims per day without exception. Our daily assignments and locations were algorithimically generated by very substandard software (didn't fully take into account variations in traffic over time and wasn't based on reliable, curent data in the first place). It was in Los Angeles, so traffic and distances between appointments could be immense. Yet, we weren't allowed any exceptions. If we didn't make one of our appointments, depending on the size of the claim, that could disqualify you from a bonus or pay raise. Too many (5-8 per year) could jeopardize your job. The same went for providing iaccurate estimates. So if you missed something (more realisistically paid out too much without trying to deny responsibility) on one flagship luxury or sports car (7 series BMW, S Mercedes, etc.), you'd likely lose your bonus. It's like every day is a chance for you to lose while I feel like for many of us here on HN, each day is a chance for us to earn a bonus.

UPS drivers are under the same pressure. That's why they leave packages outside or in the lobby of buildings. If they don't complete their algorithmically generated deliveries for the day, they're dinged. They can never question the software either. Customer service is another field with similar pressures. Being under that daily constant fear and pressure for such little reward must be so mentally taxing, like if one was still in the food chain

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by FullMtlAlcoholc on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @11:04PM (#16864293)
I should add that a couple of years ago, I received a check in the mail for several hundred dollars due to a class action settlement launched on behalf of the Claims team. Management really pushed for employees to hit that 3 claims a day mark , granting overtime in the most limited of circumstances by suggesting that we could eat and be driving to an appointment during the lunch hour. In effect, they encouraged us to skip lunch if we needed to and/or to eat while driving. Remember, this is coming from an automotive insurance company.

As someone who only worked there for a month, it was a pretty nice unexpected bonus.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by axaxs on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @01:09AM (#16855637)
I am by no means siding with Amazon - check my post history. But as far as I know, there exist state and federal laws covering this. Even in my podunk state, law requires an uninterrupted 15 minute break per 4 hours worked, and even guides when that time must be allocated. Anything over 6 hours must be given an unpaid 30 minute meal period. Not perfect, but we aren't pissing in bottles.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by evv on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:52PM (#16852127)
> Sometimes I look at society as a complete organ, with a hypothetical ability to make cohesive decisions for itself. And I think, it is making extremely self-destructive choices.

One of my favorite philosophical thought experiments! I'd argue that that society is an organism comprised of several governments/companies which act as the organs.

I usually observe each organ making decisions to optimize its use of money, (or blood in this metaphor!).

It is usually clear that these decisions have net negative effects on us individual humans (cells) in the organism.

But the question remains, when each company and government optimizes for money instead of individual health, is that healthy for the success of society, the broader organism?

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by ttroyr on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @03:58PM (#16861744)
The trouble is not the decision to optimize for financial or physical health, the issue is that Amazon seems to see some people as part of its organism (long-term entity), such as its engineering talent, and other people, like these poor warehouse workers, as a temporary part of a future robotic optimization. Companies like Apple value their lowest level employees because nobody is sure that computers will competently replicate sympathetic customer service. Amazon doesn't need its warehouse workers' soft skills, only their muscle and basic logic.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by pascalxus on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:24PM (#16852919)
It's not like people's entire paycheck is going toward materialism. In the US, nationally, roughly 70% of consumer spending is essentials (more or less): housing, transportation and food.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by dlwdlw on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @02:14AM (#16855949)
You might find the film Samsara quite interesting. It's a timeline documentary showing how people live all over the world. Timelapses show the interconnectedness of things that happen too slowly for us to appreciate. Like star trails.

The film evokes a sense of how things are connected and all the suffering we create due to a desire to alleviate suffering.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by paxys on Monday April 16, 2018 @09:19PM (#16854600)
What's your solution then? Are you implying that manual laborers had a better time at any point in history before Amazon existed?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by aswanson on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @08:53AM (#16857791)
I did manual labor up until I finished college. I never felt forced to piss in bottles to keep any of those jobs.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by disordinary on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:58PM (#16853223)
Other countries have proper labor and employment laws. This wouldn't be allowed in the bulk of the rest of the west.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by tylergetsay on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:02PM (#16851749)
If you sell toasters then yes
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by guiomie on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:33PM (#16851990)
Guilty, I bought a robot vacuum on Amazon and used it once.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by andrepd on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:01PM (#16853238)
It's not only worker's rights (which is bad enough). It's many things, for example the environment. For instance, the amount of fuel burned, and carbon emitted, to deliver an item in 2 days instead of 3 is 40% higher (sorry I don't have a citation right now). We're boiling our planet alive for the slightest of conveniences! It's bonkers! Like we're filling the oceans with trash for using completely superfluous plastic packaging that improves our lives in the most negligible of ways. All of this to sell ever increasing (because current market capitalism demands constant "growth") piles of crap.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by njarboe on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:38PM (#16852032)
And for some reason one can only buy two sizes of socks. For shoe sizes 6-12 (regular) and 12-16 (large). A sock that fits 6 through 12 shoes sizes? Capitalism failure.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by tomlor on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:28PM (#16852418)
I thought the same thing until I discovered H&M socks. Say what you will about their labor practices - at least they make socks that fit my feet.

www.hm.com/us/product/92297

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:55PM (#16852139)
Since we're talking about Amazon and you're talking about sock sizes and I remember Alec Baldwin ordering "Bresciani's" on the first Alexa commercials: https://www.amazon.com/Bresciani-Cashmere-Over-Calf-Dress/dp...

In multiple sizes...

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by profalseidol on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @08:43PM (#16863698)
Such is the way of capitalism.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by throwa_way_ on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:20PM (#16851892)
Worth it for me, so I continue to buy stuff on Amazon.

If the workers don't like it they can work elsewhere or start their own Amazon.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:32PM (#16851982)
Do you believe there should be minimum standards for working conditions?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by djrogers on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:07PM (#16852236)
That's a specious question - there are minimum standards for wrking conditions. What people upset at Amazon really want is to change those standards, which is a completely fair standpoint. Let's not muddy the waters by papering over 100 years of accomplishemnts of US labor...
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:18PM (#16852328)
I was just questioning the ideology of the person I replied to, not making a statement on the current situation. I'm trying to get people to see that the current situation is the result of organized labor, not some natural condition we happen to find ourselves in.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by nv-vn on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:59PM (#16852166)
To the degree that workers are not your slaves or property, yes. They should be free to decide who to work for, and employers cannot treat people as their property. But as long as there's informed consent, most things are pretty fair.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by vertex-four on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:42PM (#16852569)
Informed consent to piss in bottles to meet impossible quotas, or die from starvation. Good choice.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by ataggart on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:00PM (#16853232)
If their next best option to working at an Amazon warehouse is starvation, then it's a pretty good thing for them that Amazon has a warehouse there. That said, I strongly suspect they have better "next best" options.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by vertex-four on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:28PM (#16853437)
Funnily enough, we have enough food and shelter in the U.K. that this shouldn’t need to be a choice people have to make - the issue is one of inefficient resource allocation. Instead of noticing this and solving the problem, our Government have decided that if you desire any sense of dignity, you deserve to die.

Have some fucking empathy.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Monday April 16, 2018 @06:05PM (#16853271)
An Amazon warehouse being there is the reason they don't have many other options.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:01PM (#16852189)
So you are against things like paid time off, 40-hour work week, weekends off, workplace safety/health standards, ect.?
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by nv-vn on Friday April 20, 2018 @02:44PM (#16887423)
Not against them. I'm against them being required by law. (Some safety standards should definitely be part of the law). But if the law limits hours then it hurts some people more--if they didn't have to pay overtime, you might be able to work twice as many hours. For many programmers, working 1.5x as many hours might be worth 1.5x the salary. But if the company is required to pay for overtime by law, it may be more economical to just hire new workers. In that case, the guy who wants to work overtime is at a disadvantage. This is similar to what happens in part time jobs where people want to work more hours but it's cheaper for the company to hire someone else. The long-term effect is that people have to work 3 part time jobs to get by rather than 1 full time job where there's more opportunity for growth/raises.

With health and safety standards, there's always going to be some really shitty jobs. For example, in terms of health and safety mining coal is pretty undesirable. But if nobody is doing the job, the demand still stays there and the position is available for much higher pay. If you could earn $500k a year doing a job that's destructive to your body it can still be very much worth it. Of course, most of these workers either have few choices for work or are not totally aware of all the health issues associated with their jobs. This is obviously of concern, but I don't think banning the job outright is the right way to go.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by thegrimmest on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:32PM (#16852986)
Can I say "yes" without being down-voted? I'd like the government not to limit free association of moral agents. Two people should be free to work together under whatever arrangement they voluntarily enter into.

All our current system of labour and union law has accomplished is the offshoring of suffering. We've not gotten rid of the existence of, nor our reliance on abhorrent working conditions. We've just moved them elsewhere, in the process wasting tremendous amounts of energy (not to mention the associated destruction of the environment) shipping things to and from more lenient jurisdictions.

I propose that if the working conditions we rely on were present under our noses, we would do more to try to actually mediate our dependence their production.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by lovich on Monday April 16, 2018 @09:24PM (#16854627)
I understand that viewpoint,and even agree with it mostly on a person to person level, but if the government didn't have these laws why would it be any better. When people tried to negotiate with companies without the states involvement, the companies used violence to try and get their way.

Corporations aren't moral agents and can't be treated as such

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by thegrimmest on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @09:40AM (#16858150)

  the companies used violence to try and get their way
And that's exactly where we need the state, in order to protect us from violence. I'd just like there to be limits on the scope of its authority. Corporations are just groups of people.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by lovich on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @03:17PM (#16861414)
Corporations may be groups of people but they don't get treated like people. There's no corporate death penalty for companies that end up killing people. There's no corporate jail to remove companies that can't behave out of society for a set amount of time. There's fines that seem to never be greater than the profit the companies earn from breaking the law and it just becomes a cost of business.

If they're going to be treated like people then go all the way, but until then they need to be regulated to prevent the worst of their excesses that have been played out again and again

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by thegrimmest on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @04:39PM (#16862114)

  Corporations may be groups of people but they don't get treated like people
They don't have to be. All we have to do is hold individuals accountable for their actions. If a person in a corporation orders violent suppression of a labour dispute, then they are personally accountable. A corporation is a legal fiction. It can't be held accountable because it doesn't do anything, the people who run it do.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by kelnos on Monday April 16, 2018 @09:32PM (#16854672)
As I replied to the parent, the laundry list of items is a little odd, since, in the US at least, the only thing there that's protected by law are the workplace health and safety standards.

And... I guess I must not be as optimistic as you are. If we didn't have things like OSHA, I do not expect that most workplaces would act in the best interests of their workers' health and safety. Look at countries where there aren't OSHA-like laws and see how well they do there. (Hint: not well.)

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by thegrimmest on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @09:43AM (#16858178)
Minimum wage is certainly protected by law.

  Look at countries where there aren't OSHA-like laws and see how well they do there
That's exactly my point though isn't it? We still rely on goods produced in those places, we just don't have any visibility into the conditions they are produced in. We've just offshored the suffering, not alleviated it.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @10:34AM (#16858683)
I'm fully agreed with this. The question is then what are the ways we can improve the working/living conditions of people around the world. The way workers around the world have fought for better conditions is by using their ability to withhold labor and collectively bargain with the capitalist class.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by thegrimmest on Tuesday April 17, 2018 @10:54AM (#16858875)
And they should continue to do that. In fact this works quite well without government interference (labour/union law) or even in spite of it (See the Indian independence movement). I'm suggesting we need the government to protect us from violence when negotiations go awry, not to interfere in said negotiations between free private entities.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by your-nanny on Monday April 16, 2018 @07:32PM (#16853954)
See: the Inclosure Act.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by kelnos on Monday April 16, 2018 @09:29PM (#16854661)
In the US, at least, paid time off, a 40-hour work week, and weekends off are not specified by any kind of law.

I'm definitely a fan of workplace health and safety standards, though. Countries without those tend to cut corners to their workers' detriment.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by wooter on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:31PM (#16852976)
all things that exist without the government and which vary wildly amongst professions. i work far more than 40 hours and don't take most weekends - as I am entitled to.
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by bbddg on Monday April 16, 2018 @05:34PM (#16853008)
Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by DanBC on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:38PM (#16852031)
> If the workers don't like it they can work elsewhere

Note that the submitted article is from the UK, where the workers might not be able to work elsewhere, and where they may have had some element of compulsion through the current benefit system to apply for and take jobs at Amazon.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by skookumchuck on Monday April 16, 2018 @03:56PM (#16852147)
> ...might...may...

Sounds like speculation.

Re:Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punish... by DanBC on Monday April 16, 2018 @04:40PM (#16852551)
No, it's accounting for the large numbers of people involved.

For clarity: people claiming Universal Credit will have been compelled to apply for work at Amazon, and will have had their benefits cut if they had refused to apply. And, once employed, people face a minimum 6 week wait before they can apply for benefits if they leave Amazon, and that time is extended if they chose to leave or were fired.