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Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by phil21 on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:11PM (#16389570)
I was out shopping 3-4 days before Christmas this year, and happened to be near a Barnes and Noble so figured I'd grab a copy of a magazine I've been wanting to read for a while.

Grabbed the magazine, wandered the aisles a bit and picked up another book then went to check out. Basically I was their marketing department's dream - walk-in traffic coming to buy something cheap and specific who made an impulse retail buy of a much higher margin item.

The checkout line was at least 50 people long and probably estimated at over an hour. Two cashiers working out of 8 or so possible registers, and as far as I could tell a singular employee on the floor itself.

I put my selections back and walked out the door. Granted it was near peak shopping season - but that was inexcusable. There were quite a lot of really pissed off looking people in that line.

So that is to say my experience lines up with the article. They entirely botched their Christmas season and it wasn't the employee's or consumer demand's fault. Just that one store bled hundreds of dollars in lost sales just from the 5 minutes I watched people walk in and immediately out after seeing the line.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by eludwig on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:47AM (#16391664)
>>Two cashiers working out of 8 or so possible registers

And the worst part about this is that each cashier seems determined to relentlessly pester me with annoying questions at the register! Did I want to join this loyalty program? Did I realize that I could save $5 by signing up for so and so. Do I want to get on the B&N mailing list? Really aggressive questioning.

Oh my God. I realize that the cashiers have been ordered to do this (I assume) but knock it off already! This is so consumer unfriendly. I just want to pay and go. I'm sure that this also delays checkout times significantly over the course of a day.

This is one of the main reasons I use Amazon when possible. Retail checkout in the US has become a one-way grilling. You end up leaving the store feeling like a murder suspect.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by skywhopper on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:32AM (#16392547)
Not only are they ordered to do it but corporate puts requirements on the store as to how many joins they are expected to get each day, and cashiers have their own individual quotas and they get chewed out if they don’t meet them by managers who get chewed out for not meeting them. The fact that this behavior reduces sales throughput, employee productivity, and customer satisfaction are not worked into the analysis that comes up with these programs or their growth targets. Upper management comes up with a target and they push their stores to meet it, because their CMO went to a conference where he was wined and dined by the company that sells the software to run the loyalty card system and believes their stats about how it saved company X and now that they’ve spent the money the ROI has to meet internal targets or risk embarrassing the CMO.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryandrake on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:18PM (#16393872)
If you're lucky you just get chewed out. My wife used to work retail and in one store, you had to push credit cards, often to people who really should not have another one. If you failed to meet your quota you get a warning the first time and then fired the second time.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by tjr on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:28PM (#16393968)
Setting goals for one person based on what another person chooses to do seems like a phenomenally stupid idea.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryandrake on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:34PM (#16394021)
Welcome to sales and retail! Watch Glengarry Glen Ross.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DaveWalk on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:58PM (#16396165)
This sounds heartbreakingly true, especially the part about the CMO being sold a fantasy at a conference. I really like the way you've chained it together from the C-suite all the way down to the lowly cashier.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by nkrisc on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:08AM (#16392824)
Sounds like a company that would keep such an executive on board deserves to fail.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Sir_Cmpwn on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:47AM (#16393111)
The failure of brick and mortar book stores is a net negative to society. Deserves to fail, maybe, but it'll suck when they do.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lmkg on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:47AM (#16393620)
Unlike the Internet, when a break-and-mortar fails it's not easy for a competitor to break into the space and scoop up their market share. In theory in an efficient market, players that deserve to fail will be replaced and the market as a whole will remain and become stronger. In meatspace, where many things have friction, players that deserve to fail will bring the market down. I also wish it weren't the case, but it's not a market many players are actively trying to enter right now.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Slansitartop on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:24PM (#16393924)
> Unlike the Internet, when a break-and-mortar fails it's not easy for a competitor to break into the space and scoop up their market share.

Also, in this space, there's a competitor that's on it's way to a monopoly. if B&N goes belly-up, I'm not even sure where I could buy books besides Amazon.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by nkrisc on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:06PM (#16396904)
My situation might be different because I live in a major US city, but I can think of a handful of independent bookstores near where I live. If they didn't have what I was looking for they could probably order it for me.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by laurex on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:33AM (#16406777)
Try powells.com, an independent but pretty comprehensive bookstore in Portland.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by always_good on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:36PM (#16394038)
So many good memories as a kid of going to the local B&N with my parents. Unlike our library, it had coffee and social energy and tables set up for browsing and was open past 5pm.

It shared a cursed strip mall with a Blockbuster, a LAN gaming center, and a music shop that was finally torn down last year.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by pboutros on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:43AM (#16393076)
Blaming the executive here makes sense. But saying the "company deserves to fail" ignores the livelihoods of everyone below that person in the hierarchy, who gets fired because mgmt has different incentives than the workers.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by nkrisc on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:07PM (#16393784)
Perhaps if those lower in the hierarchy and society as a whole are constantly burned by businesses failing due to incompetent leadership, they might start to expect or demand something different. Socialism? Anarchy? Some kind of socially conscious capitalism? I don't know what form it will take, but it might be something different than what we have now.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by tnzn on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:55PM (#16394228)
Isn't "conscious capitalism" what's being sold to us since the 70's, through the "new spirit of capitalism" ?

Anyways props to ur comment hah

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by FussyZeus on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:16AM (#16393365)
Not to mention the fact that so many companies right now have new leadership that didn't build the company and are stuck, like B&N's here, not in a mode to improve the company but a mode to make sure there's as much meat for picking as possible when it eventually goes down in flames.

It seems like the "Old Business" world is just a nest of snakes eating each other until there's just one left to die of starvation.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lotsofpulp on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:04PM (#16393752)
Then how would the feedback loop be completed to provide information about which strategies are good and bad?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Momquist on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:47PM (#16394731)
That's assuming that someone recognizes which strategy was responsible for failure. Blaming the competitors, or the employees, is probably much more comforting and easier for upper management.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by jessaustin on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:24AM (#16392498)
A couple of days ago I attempted to pay for snacks at a convenience store with cash. The clerk sheepishly directed me to answer a series of questions about discount cards via the pinpad! When I asked if this seemed like a good idea, she could only sigh and glance skyward.

Apparently the corporate morons have figured out how to pester the customer even against the better judgment of clerks. Fortunately I have a choice in which convenience store enjoys my custom.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by sizzzzlerz on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:20AM (#16392465)
B&N isn't the only one to do this but they are one of the most persistant. I visit the store once or twice a month and have been since Borders tanked. Every time I buy something, I get this spiel. Dozens of times now. Usually, I cut them off with a curt "no" when I sense they're ready to start the question. I sort of feel bad because it isn't the clerks fault but I'm really annoyed at just being asked over and over. I'm tempted to have a badge made up I can pin to my shirt that says "Thank you. No.".
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by avs733 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:19AM (#16392458)
>Oh my God. I realize that the cashiers have been ordered to do this (I assume) but knock it off already!

Why should they? If they don't they will get fired. Business goes up or down that cashier doesn't get paid more or less...they have no incentive to risk their job for a customer. These companies are so obsessed with squeezing a nickle out of 5% of their customers because they can _measure_ that. Its 'impossible' to measure losses like you with any granularity, so it doesn't matter. They 'can't' incentivize it.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by el-y0y0s on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:40PM (#16394665)
If I'm incented to sell memberships, I'm going to sell the sh out of memberships. The pearl clutching in this thread is apparent, but remember, they have the data, we don't.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bluedino on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:40AM (#16392199)
>> Retail checkout in the US has become a one-way grilling.

At one point Best Buy was trying to get you to sign up for MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTIONS at checkout. Who thought that was a good idea?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mgkimsal on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:18AM (#16392450)
> Who thought that was a good idea?

A bunch of corporate people who never had to ask someone face to face about buying stupid shit after they've already decided what they want, and a bunch of corporate people who never actually shop at their own stores.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by frandroid on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:53AM (#16393173)
Have you ever heard of "rhetorical questions?"
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Sangermaine on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:40AM (#16393548)
No, what are they?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by kbos87 on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:11AM (#16393313)
JCrew is relentless with this lately. They ask you if you’d like an “email receipt”, which is code for re-subscribing you to their daily barrage of emails. Then they hand you a paper receipt as you walk out.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by sli on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:09PM (#16393804)
I aggressively avoid buying books on Amazon, mostly for the reasons listed in the article, but between BAM and B&N, I will always go to a local bookstore instead. They don't grill me for PII at the register, for one.

Overall the whole experience is way better. Finding a book is a tiny bit harder (emphasis on tiny), but honestly, I'm not in a hurry when I'm in a bookstore, so I don't care.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bunderbunder on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:22PM (#16393908)
They don't grill me for PII, and that is at least a part of why they have an easier time getting it. The local bookstore put out a sign up sheet collecting email addresses, with a little blurb at the top saying what it was for. Nobody ever mentioned it, but after a couple trips of looking at and reading it, I just threw it down on a whim. By contrast, the sense of being actively pressured for my contact info at major retailers just makes me dig my heels in on the subject.

I actually don't think finding a book is harder, either. If I know what I want, I just walk up to the counter and ask. If it's in stock, I go grab it. If it's not, they order it, tell me it'll arrive within a month, and I swing back buy to pick it up it about 2 days later. If I don't know what I want, the staff recommendation slips most independent bookstores put out are great, especially now that I've gone enough times to know which staff members share my reading tastes. And have led me to many, many more delightful books and authors I wouldn't have tried otherwise than Amazon's sad attempts at getting something useful out of collaborative filtering. ("You liked Pride and Prejudice? Well, how about... Sense and Sensibility!! Ta-daaaa, isn't AI amazing!?")

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Slansitartop on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:27PM (#16393954)
> but between BAM and B&N, I will always go to a local bookstore instead

What's BAM?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by garethsprice on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:40PM (#16394087)
Books-a-Million, another large bookstore chain
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by jadei on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:36PM (#16394046)
books a million I believe.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Kagerjay on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:15PM (#16394400)
I have this same experience with B&N as well, getting grilled on a milion questions is annoying.

Another thing is I like knowing what kind of readers have read similar books to me, and their opinions of said book. I prefer to just buy everything on my kindle, its easy and convenient. Not a big fan of hard copy textbooks much anymore

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Chris2048 on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:33AM (#16393001)
TBH, the problem is they put this stuff in the checkout dialogue. They could put it on posters etc, but they put it in the way of the purchasing utility (checkout) so you can't avoid it. and it gets in the way, slows you down.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by wnevets on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:20AM (#16390567)
Just another case of business being penny smart and dollar dumb.

"Traditional" media did the exact same thing when faced with competition from the internet. They reduced the quality of their service & product when they saw a reduction in customers which only fueled a further reduction in customers, rinse and repeat til death.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mattmanser on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:47AM (#16391449)
It looks more like the idea that paying CEOs lots of money because they are worth it really isn't working.

Because they aren't worth it.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by pjc50 on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:15AM (#16391761)
"The salary of the chief executive of a large corporation is not a market award for achievement. It is frequently in the nature of a warm personal gesture by the individual to himself." -- JK Galbraith

In certain failing businesses, the activities of senior management aren't directed towards trying to save the sinking ship, but to free up as much cashflow as possible and direct it to themselves. Rather than the creditors who would get it in bankruptcy.

MG Rover is my go-to example, but there are plenty: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2011/may/08/mg-rover-di...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bluGill on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:50AM (#16392667)
A good CEO, of which there are a few are worth the money. There are a few cases (Steve Jobs comes to mind) where a new CEO has come in and turned a failing company around, or a new CEO has come in and tanked a great company. If a company finds such a great CEO who leads the company into making billions, then they are worth a lot of money as reward for their efforts.

Business schools have studied this. One of the strongest indications of a great CEO is how long they worked at the company before becoming CEO. The best CEOs started 20+ years ago and worked their way up the ladder (ie first job out of school). The worst CEOs were hired externally for the CEO role. There are exceptions that you can think of, but when a company brings in an outside CEO that should be a red flag: they don't have the internal development in place to make someone who knows the business the leader. Sadly investors have for the most part not caught onto this. (Warren Buffet knew is in the 1950s which is why he buys companies for their great leaders and keeps the leaders in place)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by eloisant on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:20PM (#16394460)
The thing is Steve Jobs was taking a $1 salary.

Even if you can find a great CEO with a great plan with your company, I don't think paying him 10M$ instead of 500k will make him more efficient or be necessary to retain him.

Also I don't think the CEOs salaries are a results of competition for the best (like tech workers), but CEO being generous with themselves (and their peers as they're all in each others' board).

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bluGill on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:28PM (#16396524)
You are correct, but that doesn't invalidate anything I said. If someone is a great CEO for you, and they tell you they will retire to a less stressful job unless you pay them $10m it is worth it, even though you know next year (and $10m richer) they will retire. Their success over that one year should more than make up the money you spend.

Of course this assumes that one more year of development is required for the next CEO to be ready. Great CEOs try to have a replacement (or several) in training at all times.

Note that I'm assuming a great CEO - most are not great.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mratzloff on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:53PM (#16398640)
Jobs demanded a $40 MM private jet and large equity increases from the board.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by eloisant on Saturday February 17, 2018 @12:14PM (#16401572)
I'm pretty sure he was well compensated, but still - the success he had at Apple was not a consequence of his compensation.

And I don't think he was more expensive than the previous Apple CEO (Gil Amelio?) or any alternative they had at the time.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by TheOtherHobbes on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:54AM (#16392291)
They're worth it to themselves.

This is what you get when your business culture rewards quick profit-taking by a small sub-class of actors over long-term business building that benefits customers and employees.

It's more profitable - personally - to asset strip a struggling company, even if it still has prospects, good will, and loyal employees, than to put in the creativity and hard work needed to make it prosper.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by goldenkey on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:43AM (#16391651)
Well a good CEO would ideally be someone who understands the intricacies and drawbacks of cost-cutting measures. Unfortunately, the intersection between CEOs with large personal networks, and actual chops is vanishingly small. Most experienced employees working at B&N could probably do a better job than the current CEO. But they don't play golf and know the CEOs of other large companies.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by avs733 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:20AM (#16392467)
A mentor of mine once said something that really stuck with me: "Any company that chooses to fight a new type of competitor by slashing prices has already admitted defeat"
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by eloisant on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:15PM (#16394410)
Or executive are smart about the dollar in their pocket, they don't care if they kill one company because they'll just find another nice executive job in another one.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by amygdyl on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:44AM (#16392629)
This is the case of the least denominator in management"thinking". If managers were legally liable to shareholders for obviously bad decisions that benefit to the managers, it might occur less. Only Sweden makes regular management liable in this way, even on criminal penalty. I see all manner of arguments why this could be used to excuse sclerosis in innovation, but frankly I don't see it that way.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ekianjo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:23PM (#16389618)
This happens in a lot of places. The shopping experience may be nice but the actual payment experience is atrocious. Honestly if I have to wait more than 10 minutes to pay for something, I just don't buy anything, or purchase online instead. Even if there are long queues, there are many ways you could improve the experience - for example get an automatic ticket to get "in line" in the system, and get called when it's your turn - at the same time you can continue looking at more items instead of wasting your time in line.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by tnolet on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:29AM (#16391361)
Many train stations in the Netherlands have book and magazine shops with "self checkout". Basically a scanner & screen like you see at Ikea. Works great in rush hour when these places are packed with people buying morning newspapers and such.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by reaperducer on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:11PM (#16393816)
Things like this are why I love Apple's self-checkout system at its stores. No need to even go to a checkout; just scan the item with your phone, and it's paid for.

I sometimes feel like a shoplifter on my way out, but nobody's ever looked at me sideways.

More than once I've decided to pick up an adapter or headphones or a hard drive at the Apple Store instead of Fry's or Best Buy or Target because of the iPhone checkout.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by PaulHoule on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:22AM (#16392485)
When I've gone to Barnes and Noble recently, I've found editions of books in prominent places that were poorly printed. For instance, one hardcover with a fancy binding had very thin/transparent pages to the extent that the text was less legible. Don't get me started about the trade paperbacks that I suspect will have the binding break immediately.

I wonder if Barnes and Noble sells reduced quality books the same way that Wal*Mart gets brands to make cheaper but reduced quality versions of their products for their stores.

Either way it turns me off. They are pretty good at getting me into the store to use my laptop at the Starbucks or for when my son is doing a group project and the other students are meeting there -- only to immediately turn me off with inferior products.

As in the story above, bad experiences don't just cost a sale immediately, but they might cost all future sales from that customer.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by smelendez on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:26AM (#16393445)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. I had the same experience and it made the store seem a bit scammy lately. A lot of the cheaply made books also seemed geared toward older people: they were either about the 1940s-1960s, or were the kinds of public domain classics a grandparent would buy a grandchild (Robinson Crusoe, The Arabian Knights) in outwardly fancy but actually poor quality editions.

It's especially a shame because Barnes & Noble classics editions from 10 or 15 years ago are actually very nice.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by smogcutter on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:45PM (#16394126)
Side note for those buying books for their grandchildren: Arabian Nights includes a great deal more sex than you might assume.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DaveWalk on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:15PM (#16396375)
Super interesting. For the bibliophiles out there, I wonder how bad this is getting industry-wide? Does it happen at indie book sellers, Wal Mart, and Amazon too?

Certainly I have put down books that were made way too cheaply, and I have impulse-purchased books that are exceptionally well-designed.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by rayiner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:28PM (#16389635)
But the rest of the year, the stores are empty. Which validated the company's decision: why have a bunch of full time employees, when what it really needs is part time and flexible employees to handle holiday surges (probably caused by waiting for Amazon shipping to not be an option).
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by blhack on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:50PM (#16389715)
Not the one near me (in Phoenix, near Arizona State University). It's a major anchor in a shopping center, and is busy every time I'm ever in there.

The employees are also really helpful. This Christmas, I was trying to find some books as a christmas gift, and the staff made a bunch of suggestions based on books that they had actually personally read.

Sidenote: finding appropriate books for 8-14 year old girls is really freaking hard.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by auxbuss on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:58AM (#16391488)
Try Frances Hardinge. The Lie Tree [0] won loads of awards. I'm not in the target age range obviously, but my favourite is Cuckoo Song. Her earlier books are definitely for a younger audience. All Hardinge's books have young female protags.

Philip Pullman's, His Dark Materials trilogy [1]. The protag, Lyra, is one of the most interesting young female protags in literature. (This is one of those trilogies that you can reread at different stages of your life and get new things from each time.)

Patrick Ness's, Chaos Walking trilogy [2]. (Read the dead tree versions, because the use of typography adds a lot.)

Also, checkout Malorie Blackman.

You might also want to take a look at the Carnegie Medal longlist [3] (released yesterday) for ideas.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lie_Tree

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Walking

[3] http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/press.php?release=pres_2...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by AnimalMuppet on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:13PM (#16394380)
Note that the His Dark Materials books are a fictionalized advertisement for atheism in the way that C. S. Lewis's Narnia books are for Christianity. If that matters to you, you may want to pick something else.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by auxbuss on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:50PM (#16396754)
My knee-jerk reaction to this unsupported assertion was to counter it as a myth; however, I was reading Alan Garner's, The Voice That Thunders [0], this afternoon – specifically the essay, The Voice in the Shadow – and my understanding of myth has deepened; so, instead, I will suggest this assertion is a canard – and not in the sense of the lumps of sugar the French dip into their coffee.

His Dark Materials (HDM) is a retelling of Paradise Lost [1] – Milton's epic poem of the story of Adam and Eve. Its foundational myth is the keystone of much religion. Pullman is a scholar of Blake, and his grandfather was an Anglican vicar whom he was close to as a result of his father dying when he was young. Pullman knows precisely what he's doing.

Where some Christian groups – I will refrain from labelling them as fundamentalists – seem to have backed into their breeches is with Pullman's portrayal of The Magisterium (which some Catholics believe represents themselves), and that in the telling, Pullman kills God.

The Catholic church has – to say the least – had a colourful history. Much of it sanguine – in colour, that is. That's undeniable. And if a parent should want to censor their 8-14 year old reader from the harm that HDM might thrust upon them with the behaviour of The Magisterium, then they are going to have a whale of a time "protecting" them from history of the Catholic church. Good luck denying Martin Luther's place in history; let alone the Inquisition.

Before I tackle the alleged murder of God, can I point out that the Archbishop of Canterbury loves HDM [2]. This is someone who holds a role first filled by Augustine in 597. (Augustine was quite something. Do read his tale.) If anyone on the planet was going to callout Pullman on atheism, the ArchBofC was the man. Nope. Not only loved it, but recommended it.

And yet, in the US, the books were censored [3].

The most telling expurgation is this from the point of view of Father Gomez (of The Magisterium) watching Lyra (the protagonist):

"And there it was: the dark-blonde movement that was the girl's hair. He moved a little closer, and took out the rifle. There was a telescopic sight: low-powered, but beautifully made, so that looking through it was to feel your vision clarified as well as enlarged. Yes, there she was, and she paused and looked back so that he saw the expression on her face, and he could not understand how anyone so steeped in evil could look so radiant with hope and happiness."

"... he could not understand how anyone so steeped in evil could look so radiant with hope and happiness."

For me, in context, this one of the most beautiful parts in the trilogy, but in the US – the Land of the Free, the bastion of free speech – you cannot read it.

God, of course, is not murdered in HDM. First, let us see how Pullman describes the place of God in his universe:

Balthamos (an angel) said quietly, “The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty — those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves — the first angel, true, the most powerful, but he was formed of Dust as we are, and Dust is only a name for what happens when matter begins to understand itself. Matter loves matter. It seeks to know more about itself, and Dust is formed. The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all. He told those who came after him that he had created them, but it was a lie. One of those who came later was wiser than he was, and she found out the truth, so he banished her. We serve her still. And the Authority still reigns in the Kingdom, and Metatron is his Regent.”

Pullman uses the idea of sentient matter – he calls Dust – as a core theme of his books. This can be linked to panpsychism, which has a broad history and many proponents both ancient and recent.

But the murder of God?

The two protagonists, Lyra and Will, simply open the crystal cell that contains the Authority and he/it dissolves with “a sigh of the most profound and exhausted relief.”

There's no "fictionalized advertisement for atheism" here, however hard you look.

[0] If you are at all interested in storytelling, please read this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1602869.The_Voice_That_T...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost

[2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3613962/The-Dark-Material...

[3] https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/118137/what-passag...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Kluny on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:07AM (#16390009)
Patricia C Wrede, Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, Ursula K Le Guin, Judy Blume and Anne McCaffrey are some authors who have outstanding books for girls in that age range, in case you find yourself with the same problem again.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by blhack on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:01AM (#16390259)
Thank you! Any specific stories you recommend? The problem I was having with the things I was looking at were that a lot of them seemed to be basically romance novels for kids.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by thaumasiotes on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:02AM (#16391216)
I am not a girl.

But I liked the Dealing with Dragons series from Patricia C. Wrede (humorous), The Hero and the Crown and The Blue Sword from Robin McKinley, and the Dragon's Blood series from Jane Yolen.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lostcolony on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:40AM (#16392198)
You can get the entire Enchanted Forest series (the name of the series that Dealing with Dragons is the first of; four books in total) for $20-30.

As a male I enjoyed it, and one of my best female friends also remembers it fondly.

I'd also throw in Sabriel, as a YA fantasy novel that I really liked, that had a female protagonist who kicked ass (rather than was there to support a male, or something else equally stereotypical)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by qerolt on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:07PM (#16393777)
I second the Sabriel series. I tend to think Garth Nix is a kind of Neil-Gaiman-starter author. Elements of gothic/horror stuff, but never really too scary for kids (or at least, not for me when I was that age, it tends to depend on the kid in question)
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by thaumasiotes on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:40PM (#16397186)
Just as a counterpoint, I have read the Sabriel series, but I was unimpressed.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by qerolt on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:04PM (#16393756)
Tamora Pierce Recommendations:

For the adventurous tomboy: "Alanna: The First Adventure" and "First Test" are the first books in two different series.

In general a good series: Sandry's Book (Circle of Magic Series)

Some of them do have romances/crushes (Alanna series more than the other two), but they're all focused on adventurous girls doing cool stuff, and the importance of hard work, friends, learning new things, etc. etc. I loved them as a kid (and now).

Source: was an 8-14 year old girl

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Kluny on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:38PM (#16394067)
Lots of good recommendations below, I'll add Pegasus in Flight and The Ship Who Sang as my favorite McCaffery novels. Mercedes Lackey you do actually have to be careful with, because some of her books are reeaaaally smutty. I remember them fondly from when I was 12, but you probably don't want to be the uncle who gives them to her, come to think of it.

Wrede's Dealing With Dragons series is incredible, the Circle of Magic series is a good read (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Magic), same with the Alanna series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_the_Lioness).

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mixmastamyk on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:46PM (#16394129)
Check with library and schools.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DanBC on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:38AM (#16391404)
When looking for books for children I look at the CILIP Carnegie award to find winning and shortlisted books. I then noodle around the other books written by those authors.

The award covers a wide range of ages, so some books might be too young.

Here's a press release for the 2018 long list: http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/press.php?release=pres_2...

Here's a list of all Carnegie winners: http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/archive.php?medal=carneg...

Here are some Twitter accounts that might be useful: https://twitter.com/FaberChildrens

https://twitter.com/PuffinBooks

https://twitter.com/WalkerBooksUK

https://twitter.com/KidsBloomsbury

https://twitter.com/hodderchildrens

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DanBC on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:46PM (#16396019)
I guess this list isn't massively useful, so here are some actual books.

The Explorer by Katherine Rundell (but anything by this auther, she's written some excellent books) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Explorer-WINNER-COSTA-CHILDRENS-AWA...

The London Eye Mystery by Siobhan Dowd https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Eye-Mystery-Siobhan-Dowd/dp/...

and The Guggenheim Mystery by Siobhan Dowd and Robin Stevens https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guggenheim-Mystery-Robin-Stevens/dp...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:45PM (#16389933)
It’s weird, but some stores are thriving and others are dying. The one in downtown Santa Monica Ca is super crowded whenever I went there, while the one in downtown Bellevue WA is super dead. My impression of B&N changes quickly....
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by kermittd on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:48AM (#16390199)
Funny enough that one in downtown Santa Monica just shut down after being open for twenty-something years.

Source:

I work/live near there and always went.

Also http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2018/01/barnes_noble_close...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:25AM (#16391339)
Oh, wow! I guess even busy they still couldn’t pay the rent.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:52AM (#16390216)
you mean the one in bellevue near the new amazon building in bellevue across the lake from amazon hq1? I'm not sure that's the best store to example off of.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:30AM (#16391364)
The long time one in downtown, not sure if there is an Amazon building downtown. They closed the attached (real) Starbucks and now it lacks a cafe, even though the Starbucks was always busy the store was still kind of empty.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:13AM (#16392851)
Yeah that's the one I'm thinking of. There are 2 starbucks one block up the hill to the transit center too, so basically 3 on that square block. It was too far down the hill for me to go to when I worked there.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:08PM (#16393791)
Bellevue is saturated with starbucks, but very few that were open until 10PM like the one in B&N was (actually, only the Lodge and the original Bellevue store are open late). It was the place for students to hang out studying, but now...there really isn't much to replace it.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:40PM (#16398033)
I always went to rock bottom and awkwardly worked at the bar.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by book_mentioned on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:32AM (#16391854)
Might find something worth the $15 here (ends in 5 days):

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/geek-gals-books

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by book_mentioned on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @08:51AM (#16429402)
A new barely relevant bundle: https://storybundle.com/ya

(Hope you see this!)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by kamarg on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:34AM (#16392561)
At the upper end of that age range, the Chronicles of Chaos (https://smile.amazon.com/Orphans-Chaos-Chronicles-John-Wrigh...) is an excellent trilogy. One of my favorite parts about the series is that each of the main characters has a very distinct way of looking at the world (logic, spirits, etc) that helps start conversations about understanding other peoples' point of view.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gaius on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:42AM (#16391645)
finding appropriate books for 8-14 year old girls is really freaking hard.

Start with The Hunger Games and if she likes it that’s next year sorted too, buy her a bow.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by goldenkey on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:45AM (#16391658)
Why not Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? Less violent and more inspirational.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by InitialLastName on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:04AM (#16392345)
Also a more realistic setting/plot.

"hey, let's suppress rebellion in our outlying provinces by drafting their children and making them fight each other."

"wouldn't that cause rebellion?"

"Yep"

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:46AM (#16390414)
Isn't majority of books for them? Anyway, try Asimov if she is closer to 14. 14 is when that stuff is still interesting.

Edit: why the fuck would someone downvote this?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by icebraining on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:24AM (#16391021)
Maybe someone took umbrage with the idea that Asimov stops being interesting after 14?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:39AM (#16391101)
Good point, thank you. I did not realized I might be implying that.

Questions about society, future and such are very interesting at that age, older people tend to be interested in different things (at least I went that way). Asimov packs it together with kinda normal fun to read story which kids at that age like too.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by sp332 on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:05AM (#16393268)
Asimov is an incredibly broad writer. He has some stuff aimed at younger readers, but still managed to be uncomfortably sexist with the Norby novels. Robots of Dawn involves sex with robots. I'm not that familiar with the Foundation series but I've heard Foundation's Edge uses sex to drive the plot.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Frondo on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:06PM (#16393766)
I couldn't finish Foundation, after making it nearly all the way through the book and finding the only woman in the story was someone's secretary. It just felt like very, very dated and boring writing. I don't feel like all his stuff has aged so poorly, either.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:55AM (#16390915)
I would really like to know what is wrong with Asimov as suggestion for 14 years old kid.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:33AM (#16391375)
I downvoted you because of the suggestion that "most books" are appropriate for (and interesting to) 8-14 year old girls. That is so untrue as to border on absurdity.

And, I also downvoted this comment because asking why you're being downvoted is not only dull, it adds nothing to the conversation.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by goldenkey on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:48AM (#16391668)
It does add to the conversation because we have a somewhat binary outcome for a binary recommendation. If recommending Asimov is wrong, why? Don't just downvote opinions you disagree with. Explanations are noble.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:45AM (#16391922)
I don't think recommending Isaac Asimov is wrong. Some people really like his writing (myself included).

If you would read my reply again, you'll note that I said, "I downvoted you because of the suggestion that "most books" are appropriate for (and interesting to) 8-14 year old girls."

Frankly, I don't think that's controversial enough to have to explain.

First, it's flat out wrong to group 8-14 year old girls together. The sheer amount that girls grow between those years makes that highly questionable. The kind of book that the average 8 year old would gain from would be insulting to the average 14 year old. And the kind of book that a 14 year old girl would gain from wouldn't make much sense to the average 8 year old.

And yes, there are outliers, but if your child is an outlier, for the love of all that is holy, spend time in bookstores with her and figure out what she's actually interested in. In distributions like this, outliers tend to have very strong interests that overwhelm all the social pressure. If you're dealing with an outlier, figure out those interests and cater to them.

Second, let's look at the word "most". Do we have to talk about how most popular fiction geared towards adults may not be appropriate for the average 8 year old? And what about interest? I'm a 40 year old man who reads voraciously yet "most" books are neither appropriate, nor interesting to me. There isn't anything wrong with that. It's just that we all have interests.

It's annoying when someone edits a comment to ask why they were downvoted. But, it's flat out dull when they edit a comment and then make an entirely different reply to ask the same thing. That adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gone35 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:13AM (#16392407)
[...] I'm a 40 year old man who reads voraciously yet "most" books are neither appropriate, nor interesting to me.

There. Just a friendly suggestion: I think you may be a bit over-extrapolating from your personal experience and your sense of "common sense", to make overgeneralized statements about things as arguably complex and idiosyncratic as "appropriateness" or "interest" in books. (Hence, perhaps, the pushback from other readers.)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:00AM (#16391994)
I can see how most books would not be interesting to you, but why would they be "not appropriate"? What does the word appropriate means in this context?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:26AM (#16392133)
We're talking over two threads here and I went into this in another comment.

To answer it succinctly, I'll use the programming language example that I used.

Let's say that you have never programmed before, so you come to me for help. I start teaching you. The first lesson, I teach you how to output "hello world". The second lesson, I teach you about monads. Honestly, how do you think you'd do?

There isn't anything absolutely wrong about monads, but I'd tend to argue that they're a little too advanced for someone who only knows how to output "hello world". In this example, I'd say that teaching you about monads in the second lesson was inappropriate - you likely won't gain from it, in fact, it's more likely that learning about monads too soon will actually hurt your progress.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:33AM (#16391856)
The other answer to that question "Maybe someone took umbrage with the idea that Asimov stops being interesting after 14?" did added something to the conversation.

Young girls are primary demographic for reading. While it is true that 8 years old are not there, 14 years old already are. Majority of what is in bookstore is appropriate, maybe boring, but I don't recall running into something super inappropriate while randomly browsing bookstore.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:13AM (#16392071)
First of all, you not only edited your original comment to ask why you were being downvoted, but then you made an entirely different reply to ask the same thing. Repetition like that is dull and adds nothing to a conversation.

Second, I don't think that 8 year old girls and 14 year old girls should be grouped together. I have an 8 year old stepdaughter and she talks to her stuffed animals. She knows (at least, I hope she knows) that Unicorn is stuffed and I make her voice. But, she still talks to, argues with and consoles Unicorn. And, when I meet her friends, she wants her friends to meet Unicorn.

Let's flash forward six years. What do you think she will say/do if I talk like Unicorn in front of her friends? Or, what will happen if her first boyfriend comes over for dinner, I plop a faded old stuffed unicorn on the dinner table, affect a squeaky voice and ask him "do you like unicorns?" That's not appropriate! It will either embarrass her, keep her friends away from me, or otherwise hurt my relationship with her.

Finally, you talked about how you don't recall running into something super inappropriate while browsing bookstores. I'm not talking about Fifty Shades type of stuff. Rather, let me give you an example.

I love The Catcher in The Rye and genuinely believe that every person should be required to read it before being allowed to graduate from high school.

So, that's a book that I would definitely recommend to 12-16 year olds. The thing about the Catcher is that it's best when you've already started questioning the social world around you. Otherwise, it's too easy to declare Holden Caulfield a whiny little twat and not gain from the book.

So, I would argue that while that book is amazing and all kids deserve a copy, not every kid will be ready for it at the same age. So, while the sentiment is appropriate, the book isn't appropriate for every young person at the same time.

Or, in terms of code, let's say that you've never programmed before. It wouldn't be appropriate to teach you "hello world" then go right into monads. There's nothing particularly wrong with monads, it's just that they would be so far beyond you that you wouldn't gain from the lesson.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:52AM (#16392276)
1.) I did not grouped them, parent did in the question. I picked upper range for answer.

2.) I did not objected to your downvote further. I was honestly curious when I asked those questions. (And also appreciated the answer about glib interpretation.)

For the rest, thank you for answer. I guess I have every different opinion about amount of harmful books for kids in bookstores or maybe we have different bookstores around here. At that age, I was freely selecting books from adult section in local library without any supervision or control. I assumed that other girl is the same.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by fatbird on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:53AM (#16390686)
Nothing here validates B&N's decision.

30 years ago I was a part-time employee at a big box store from October to January. Large retailers long ago figured out how to ramp up their workforce temporarily to adequately handle the sales season that accounts for the largest portion of their sales every year.

For any retailer to blow the Christmas sales season by not adequately staffing it, which has been basic retail management for at least three decades, actually does argue for malpractice on the part of executives. It's a criminal level of incompetence, and I'm not sure whether "criminal" means "criminally negligent" or "fraudulent".

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Digory on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:47AM (#16392251)
“Our current strategy isn’t working; our new one doesn’t need full time employees.”

“Well, give ‘em one more Christmas.”

As you say, it’s unthinkable they didn’t see Christmas coming. And it’s equally unthinkable layoffs of this size weren’t planned out twelve weeks ago.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Noos on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:28PM (#16393972)
They are removing expensive full time employees for whom they pay benefits for. The article said they had planned on doing this anyways, they just did it after a bad season.

As for not adequately staffing it, you simply can't. You cannot get a decent workforce via part time seasonal work. the way it worked before was part timers just took extra hours in peak periods, but Obamacare killed this by forcing any part timer over so many hours to be eligible for benefits, making it impossible to do.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by fatbird on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:09PM (#16398940)
> you simply can't

And yet, virtually every retailer for the last 3+ decades has, in fact, done so as a matter of normal operations.

It has nothing to do with Obamacare. The employment norm was not to only schedule full-time hours for part-time employees (which, even before Obamacare, violated a lot of employment law). Aside from laying off full-time employees after the cycle (which they justified by the crap sales during Christmas), B&N refused to staff-up as normal for virtually every other retailer in North America, to accommodate the most predictable sales cycle in the world... basically in order to justify the firing the full-timers.

This was a hit job by insiders looking to profit off the corpse.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:31PM (#16389646)
Institutional knowledge and loyalty. Your entire staff can’t be flex workers if you expect customers to be treated properly (see: Apple retail for how it’s done well).

Even still, see how Amazon’s flex/contractors handle deliveries (ie atrociously, as there is no incentive to care) vs UPS (a union shop).

You have to align incentives. Your employees’ success is your success. Otherwise, close up shop and go home. You’ve already lost.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ukulele on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:39PM (#16389681)
Comparing the level of customer care at a bookstore with that of an Apple store is pretty unfair. Apple makes hundreds or thousands of margin dollars per customer; a bookstore is probably closer to $10.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:45PM (#16389698)
A better comparison would be Starbucks considering the margins. Not everyone needs to have Apple margins to compensate their retail employees above minimum wage (considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already).
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:54PM (#16389733)
considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already

I don't know, $14mm for the executive team of a company with tens of thousands of employees and 600+ stores doesn't seem crazy to me. Maybe you think that smart, capable, experienced executives grow on trees, but you're wrong. And what smart, capable, experienced executive would ever want to take this job when they probably have much better options with companies who aren't dying?

Would you want to go be lead developer on the Nook team right now, knowing that you probably won't have a job for long, that your equity will be declining in value, that it'll be miserable unless you can miraculously figure out a way to turn things around? Would it be unreasonable for you to only be interested in doing that if you were getting paid very well?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:08PM (#16389783)
They'd probably be better off finding an executive who works for 100k/yr but believes in the company.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:15PM (#16389811)
I doubt it. Belief and passion may be necessary, but they're not sufficient. How do you pick this person? Based on the strength of their belief? Because if it's based on their experience and track record, you're back to where you started: this person likely has better alternatives and is smart enough to want to be compensated for the opportunity cost they're incurring.

Also, it's all well and good to say this when it's not your money on the line, but the board is responsible to the shareholders, and I doubt they're interested in taking a chance on some unproven person who has "belief in the company" as their primary qualification.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:11AM (#16390974)
Well, these fancy pants CEOs didn’t really succeed, did they.

I’m sure their individual point of view, their self interest, it’s perfectly reasonable. But from the outside it’s disgraceful. How do you justify taking a $4m payout after working less than a year? Especially when you know the axe is going to fall on the lowest paid employees.

Maybe you could, you know, skip your bonus, so the people laid off might have a little breathing room.

Frankly, this kind of stuff looks borderline close to fraud. Maybe not a legal fraud, but the fraud of management who wave their hands around to act like they know what they are doing, while they loot the company before it goes down.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by landryraccoon on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:26AM (#16390588)
Actually, I wonder if this is really true. The thing is, a company like Barnes and Noble needs to roll a hard six. Hiring an experienced, competent executive they can afford who wants to work there and ticks off all the boxes etc.. might not be in the cards for them.

B&N needs to think like a Startup again. Vision and dreams might be more important than a Harvard MBA and 10 years of experience at BigCo, Inc. Remember, Barnes and Noble is default bankrupt right now. Their situation in some ways is more like that of a startup that needs to raise capital fast or die than Amazon or Google. That means that barring drastic changes, their trajectory intersects with the ground. Why not take a big chance? Who's more likely to bet big, a young dreamer who wants $100K and a ton of stock, or the experienced executive who wants $5M a year and is going to get majorly paid no matter what happens? They're going to lose everything as it stands anyway.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:18PM (#16389826)
I've done a lot of hiring, and have found that salary demands are weakly inversely proportional to performance.

That is to say, people whose salary demands are at the lower end of the salary range for that career have outperformed those whose demands are at the higher end.

My sample size is small but significant. Food for thought.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by spookthesunset on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:07AM (#16390505)
Meh. The older and more experienced I get the more I realize I work to put food in the table and to pay for my life outside. Working for “passion” is for suckers. As the dude in that one YouTube video about consulting says, fuck you. Pay me.

Pay me what market rate is and don’t give me sob stories about passion or making sacrifices to work on some life changing BS. Pay me.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:18AM (#16391001)
Pay you for what? I don’t think many red blooded Americans resent leaders of companies that are kicking ass, reaping the rewards.

What’s eating away the civic fabric are those who put their own self interest above everyone else.

Once you get up into the millions in compensation, I don’t think the concern is that the poor naive CEO is being exploited by working for less than the absolute most they can get. Especially when the level of pay is so high, that it disproportionately impacts the bottom line.

I’m sorry, this primacy of market and money above all is sickening.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by vinceguidry on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:49AM (#16392661)
The ability to command market salary often depends on your willingness to move for a job. The labor market is not like the stock market.

So if you're supporting a family you may want a new approach for thinking about your career.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:47AM (#16393116)
I'm supporting a family on a semi-remote job (work from anywhere, employer covers my airfare to our offices as needed), and when I unexpectedly parted ways with my previous employer last year, I doubled my compensation in 2 weeks. "F* you, pay me" is a legitimate operating philosophy as an employee when your skills are in demand. Also important to live below your means and have a 1+ year runway of savings to enable you to negotiate from a position of power, but that's a conversation for another thread.

Better said above, "Working for “passion” is for suckers."

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:30PM (#16389874)
That's interesting, but I'm pretty skeptical, and I don't even think it's relevant here, unless you were hiring executives for large but dying companies?

Here's more food for thought: the five biggest companies in the US are all data-driven tech companies that are renowned for paying ridiculously high compensation. Why wouldn't they apply your framework to both save on hiring costs and boost performance?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:52AM (#16391164)
The five biggest companies in the US by revenue or profit are not data-driven tech companies.

None of the top ten US companies, by revenue, fit that description.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/

Ranked by profit, only Alphabet squeaks into the top ten at number five.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/list/filtered?sortBy=profits&f...

I’m not seeing much correlation here between rank of CEO compensation and company performance.

https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos

The fame of the high salaries at tech companies relates primarily to technical staff, not executive pay. These companies are also located in some of the most expensive areas to live.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gaadd33 on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:50PM (#16397725)
The top 5 in the S&P 500 are 4 tech companies and JP Morgan Chase. The top 5 by market cap are all tech companies.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:58PM (#16398899)
S&P 500 is primarily a ranking by market cap. It’s a measure of how much the market values a stock. I can see it being a component of size (how “big”). There’s no doubt that the big tech companies are colossal entities.

The market cap of a company is largely based on a bet of the “size” of a company in the future.

Tesla is the most “valuable” US auto maker, by market capitalization. This illustrates that market cap is inherently related to predictions which have a large speculative component, which can be influenced by pure market phenomena.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lmm on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:14AM (#16390986)
> Here's more food for thought: the five biggest companies in the US are all data-driven tech companies that are renowned for paying ridiculously high compensation. Why wouldn't they apply your framework to both save on hiring costs and boost performance?

Because a) at their scale they need to hire in bulk b) their business (advertising, "media"...) simply don't inspire that level of passion in anyone, so money is all they can do.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:40PM (#16389916)
Because those tech companies were found to have been illegally colluding to suppress wages of their workers.

It’s easier to hire cheap workers when your actions are keeping wages lower than they otherwise would’ve been.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:48PM (#16389946)
This is a classic red herring, totally unrelated.

If anything, that undermines the point I'm arguing against: why would these companies feel any need to collude to suppress wages if they could get better performance just by hiring cheaper workers?

Also, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, etc. weren't part of this suit, so again, not relevant.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:48AM (#16390417)
I think it's more like:

person who really wants the job but is kind of underqualified > person who is highly qualified, but doesn't really want the job (unless the money is right)

edit: I'll add that, for CEOs who should all look amazing on paper and know how to sell themselves, maybe willingness to do the job for less than market is a better signal than most

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by taurath on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:28PM (#16398267)
> How do you pick this person? Based on the strength of their belief?

Apparently the qualification that they care about is "Willing to take $10 million in payments while laying off 1800 to save $40 million". Competence at the CEO level doesn't always have to look like malevolence.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:49PM (#16389711)
That doesn't seem to really validate the company's decision not to hire any seasonal workers.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by heedlessly2 on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:20PM (#16394464)
Why don't most retailers hire workers as independent contractors? They could fire without legal consequences?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by raverbashing on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:50AM (#16390896)
Self-checkouts
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by 83457 on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:51AM (#16393150)
I'm always amazed also at how slow cashiers can be. I worked at walmart nearly 20 years ago and briefly they had a bonus for speed. All of the "career" retail cashiers got pissed because new employees who had only been there for a couple months started making more than them, being twice as fast. Visiting walmart and some other stores when there are long lines can be excrutiating as I see cashiers just not caring about speed while wasting time of people in line. Customers should not be able to scan a full cart of items in self-checkout faster than the average cashier.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mistersquid on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:14PM (#16389581)
This makes me wonder why physical retail stores don't follow Apple's approach by developing an app so shoppers can self-check out.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by awalton on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:35PM (#16389667)
The app would likely be more expensive to develop and maintain than hiring a few seasonal part-timers per store (2000 people at, let's face it, minimum wage for a month is about $4M that immediately converts to sales numbers just by being conscious enough to operate a register - that's cheaper than ~10 software devs in America (at least two of which are specialists - iOS/Android devs), a manager, an office, their equipment and their benefits packages that takes a year to 18-months to produce anything at all). Maybe outsourcing it would be cheaper... but even then, your conversion rate is going to be lower than just hiring a damned cashier.

And apparently B&N was against even spending for that, even during heavy sales periods. If I were a shareholder before I wouldn't be after reading this news - I'd be going and buying Amazon stock. And a lot of this explains why Amazon has been crushing Wal-Mart - people are just done with going to stores and waiting in lines, looking around at empty cashier stations in frustration when they can point, click, and have something on their doorstep the next day with less effort.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mgkimsal on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:29AM (#16392522)
> that's cheaper than ~10 software devs in America (at least two of which are specialists - iOS/Android devs), a manager, an office, their equipment and their benefits packages that takes a year to 18-months to produce anything at all)

Really? It would take 10 people 18 months to produce some type of ecommerce app that would

a) allow people to bar code scan something

b) pay for it on their phone

??

Yes, certainly there would be more tie ins to do - tie the same in to existing POS system for inventory purposes (real time or nightly), for one.

But... 18 months? $4M?

Walmart and apparently target are working on or piloting same day pickup. I can order online and go pick up at the store right afterwards. Saves walking around the store (which might cut down impulse purchases, but hey... we'll get bombarded with upsells on the future purchases, no doubt). I might not actually want something on my doorstep the next day, but want it in my hand or car 90 minutes from now, while I'm passing the store on the way home, etc.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:56AM (#16391189)
??? Amazon is not even close to Walmart in revenue or profit.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mgkimsal on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:31AM (#16392536)
* 2017 Walmart revenue was $485B

* 2017 Amazon revenue was $178B

Profit would be a different story, of course, but you can go dig for that if you want. Certainly Walmart still has markedly higher revenue.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by metaobject on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:59PM (#16389747)
My software development experience lies far outside of the web/mobile app development world, so perhaps this idea already exists...

Similar to how PG and RTM created Viaweb (a web application that allowed non-technical people to build online e-commerce sites), are there any sites/tools which allow non-technical people develop non-trivial retail/online purchasing iPhone/Android apps?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by jacobr1 on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:20PM (#16397915)
There plenty of limited functionality (trivial in your words) style WYSIWYG style app builders. But for non-trival apps the best I've seen is https://www.dropsource.com/ They do seem to be solving this problem but not focusing on complete non-technical people, just people without direct mobile experience.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:50PM (#16389714)
Of all the criticisms one might make of Walmart, being slow to check people out I'd say would be about last on my list.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by macintux on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:55PM (#16389736)
Must depend on where you are, unless you’re making a broader point about their awfulness.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by plasticchris on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:32AM (#16392542)
Definitely depends on where you are. In cities or in California in general they are terrible compared to the rural Midwest (where they started and land/labor is much cheaper).
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:07PM (#16389776)
Every Walmart I've been to they're shuffling people out at pretty impressive speeds.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by natecavanaugh on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:23AM (#16390577)
Next thing, you're going to tell me Santa is real ;). Every Walmart I've ever gone to, their checkout system is terribly slow. Their self checkout is better but still gets overwhelmed easily.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:53AM (#16392696)
Do you have a Walmart Super Center? I wonder if it has to do with store size.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by natecavanaugh on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:33PM (#16397582)
I do. There are actually a few different kinds of Walmarts around that I have visited, and it's generally the same story. I think it's a time based thing, not so much size, IMO. It seems like no matter how large or what they offer, their prices draw crowds, and they both understaff, and either under train, or make sure to put the slowest humans on Earth as the cashiers.

But the time criteria is best said in terms of when to go, since that's a much narrower window than when not to go.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bluGill on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:03AM (#16392775)
I don't go into Walmart often, but I've never seen lines deeper than 2 people, other than at the self checkout (one line serves 6+ lanes so a longer line obviously moves faster). Depends on where you live of course.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:26AM (#16393448)
Yeah, the longest lines I saw were the day I foolishly went right before the Super Bowl, and even then they were moving at a great clip.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by commandar on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:08AM (#16390013)
Walmart and Sam's Club have exactly that with their Pay & Go app.

You scan the UPCs on things as you put them in your cart. When you're done, you select pay and it displays a barcode on your screen. The checker at the door has a handheld device that they scan the barcode with, it gives them an item count, and you're on your way.

I've only ever used it at Sam's where there's always a door checker. I've heard it can be more of a pain to use at Walmarts because the door people don't always have the handheld around and have to go hunt it down.

Really, it shouldn't be surprising that they'd be a company willing to experiment in this field. Cutting labor costs to an extreme (which is actually one of the reasons I avoid Walmarts, but that's another rant) is pretty central to how they operate. And they became the behemoth they are by innovating in logistics. People often forget that they were a key figure in driving the adoption of product barcodes in the first place.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Bud on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:20PM (#16389602)
Because it takes more than just an app. Plus, that app isn't that easy.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by selectodude on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:25PM (#16389853)
Apple has a sky high budget for shoplifting. They have no issue with somebody walking out with an iPhone case because it implies they bought an iPhone.

Barnes and Noble would be decimated by that.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by skinnymuch on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:13AM (#16392414)
Is there a citation for this? I’d be interested in knowing if this is really true.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by acdha on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:21PM (#16389610)
They’ve been chasing cost reduction for many years, reducing investment in total and in that specific case I’d bet they have considerable worries about shoplifting.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by KevanM on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:15AM (#16391541)
This happened to me yesterday - I ordered a book from Waterstones and popped out at lunchtime to pick it up.

The collection desk is the same desk as the front of the store (there are payment desks on each floor of the store) and it was rammed. I ordered on Amazon instead of waiting.

All they have to do is put a sign saying collections are on X floor and it would be a better all round experience.

I also noticed that people were queuing and then asking if so-and-so book was in stock. How is this efficient?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by rlonstein on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:20AM (#16392468)
> The checkout line was at least 50 people long and probably estimated at over an hour. Two cashiers working out of 8 or so possible registers, and as far as I could tell a singular employee on the floor itself.

This is a perfect instance for self-checkout kiosks. They're everywhere: big retailers like Target, chain groceries, national pharmacies, home improvement stores, and they're turning up in smaller places and even fast food venues. This suggests to me that the kiosk price is dropping and there's less reason to have empty registers and long lines except for deliberate ignorance.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by exhilaration on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:44AM (#16392626)
There was an article posted 2 weeks ago on HN about how (some) stores are scaling back on self-checkout because it's causing their theft rates to rise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16293747
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by amygdyl on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:38AM (#16392580)
Tesco stores in London are removing from self checkout kiosks cash payment. A middle size store in the City, two sides of a aisle, left accept cash, on the right the machines only accept cards. The card only kiosks were all vacant. On the left, backing up a frustrated queue tailing behind me another twenty people at least, were a dozen self checkout kiosks, all confounding anyone's ability to pay for any goods. With the random completion of the process, the queue for the cash kiosks became chaotic. It was about 11pm. The store was otherwise almost empty. In other words, people were able to"do all their shopping" quickly, and then spend considerably more time being pissed off, probably like me, also unable to price see several items before getting to the kiosk, which is not a uncertainty I much care for.

At the kiosk, I realized I needed a carrier bag, and asked for one, none being visible. "A ten pence one is fine!" I said hopefully, the mandatory five pence ones nowhere. "We've only those." He said, pointing to one pound fifty fancy bags. Off I went, my basket left behind me. No sale.

Last night. Another Tesco store. This one has had random kiosks changed to accept card only. So I asked, as I approached the head of the queue and was told... This store doesn't accept cash. Another abandoned basket.

I have been able to complete less than half of every attempt at shopping in the second of those two stores, walking out each time over two years. Sainsbury's stock was paying ten percent dividends,last I looked. I see a classic long - short position.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by frogpelt on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:29PM (#16393982)
Imagine if stores had a way for you to pay for your physical stuff on your phone without waiting in a physical line.

1. Use their app to scan the bar code

2. Pay with a card

3. A self-service printer prints a receipt/confirmation of purchase.

4. Show it to an employee on your way out the door.

Might be an inventory nightmare, but it could be done.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by wccrawford on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:52PM (#16394193)
By "inventory nightmare" you mean "theft", right? Because that's the real problem. There are already self-serve lines in many stores, but they still have to watch people to try to prevent theft. And it turns out people are really, really slow if they aren't trained as a cashier.

Sure, the cellphone eliminates the slowdown, but it also eliminates the primary way they currently prevent theft.

Amazon is working on a store that works a lot like you said, with your cellphone, but doesn't rely on the customer doing anything other than logging in. After that, tons of cameras take care of the rest.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Spoom on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:22PM (#16394481)
Imagine that each piece of inventory had a per-item unique RFID permanently attached to it. Not just a model unique RFID, unique to that particular instance. Imagine that your phone can read that RFID. Your phone also has an app that can connect to a database, identify the particular product that the RFID represents, and complete a transaction online. Once the transaction is complete, the store's security systems are updated so that that RFID can pass through the entrance scanners without the alarm going off.

Potential pitfalls include the cost of the RFIDs, the ability to detach the RFIDs at any point, the ability to read the RFID on your phone, and alternative entrance / exits of merchandise (e.g. toss through a window).

Are there other reasons that this could not work?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mitjak on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:41PM (#16394099)
Or just set up self-serve stations. Literally every item has a barcode.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by heedlessly2 on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:59PM (#16394261)
more self-service kiosks would be an easier solution rather than building an entire new system.

If you used your phone, then it would easy to shoplift. Buy 7 items, but "forget" to scan the last two. Self-service kiosks at least prevents this with weight sensors, cameras, and a human kiosk manager.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by occamrazor on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:17PM (#16394434)
Some Coop supermarkets in Switzerland allow this.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by itronitron on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:08PM (#16389780)
Whenever I have ordered online from BN the shipping has taken a ridiculously long time, as in weeks not days. I'm not a huge fan of Amazon so if BN had at least been able to do 2-3 day shipping they would have had my business. Regarding their retail experience, it wouldn't surprise me if some executive is selling them on the concept of long checkout lines as it results in people buying more books from the discount tables at the front. It is very unfortunate that corporate dictates operational policy to individual stores like that, I have always only had positive experiences with BN employees so I wish them well.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by FLUX-YOU on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:57AM (#16393206)
>I put my selections back and walked out the door. Granted it was near peak shopping season - but that was inexcusable.

Scaling retail is hard. Especially if you're against "be on call 24/7 for minimum wage without additional on call compensation".

They could buy self-checkout terminals, though, but I imagine they don't want assets like that and would rather let the business fail. That's the writing on the wall (if not the stock trend)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by phxrsg on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:05PM (#16393762)
Scaling retail is hard to get perfect to the same precision of auto-scaling AWS, maybe, but scaling to an acceptable (measured in profit and customer satisfaction) level really isn't. Or rather, the solution is known.

Especially in December - during prime holiday shopping hours - you staff up. It's more profitable to have a little bit of employee slack time than to have customer satisfaction way down and customers walking out without buying things.

This is a bad take - the whole "oh retail will die without self-checkout terminals" overlooks the realities of retail, what consumers want when they choose to go into an actual brick and mortar store, and how businesses can succeed. And it does so in a way that perpetuates the implication that we have to treat employees like computers to be successful.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by FLUX-YOU on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:46PM (#16394130)
>It's more profitable to have a little bit of employee slack time than to have customer satisfaction way down and customers walking out without buying things.

For big box stores, but B&N are on the decline, while real estate and lease prices have likely risen.

"you staff up" works when you can actually pay for the excess, but B&N clearly don't want to. But you missed the point of my take in that they aren't willing to invest in assets for customer satisfaction. They're on the way out, so why would they care to staff up for holidays either?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by wfo on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:18AM (#16393378)
Or, alternately, the company could do what every other company in existence does and what B&N has always done and have people work during what they know will be the busiest time of the year instead of sending everyone home, destroying the company and letting the CEO pocket the savings.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by csomar on Saturday February 17, 2018 @10:03AM (#16400955)
Even worse. I wasn't able to buy online from them. My credit card charge was declined (two different cards). I contacted the Card bank and they said that it is B&N that cancelled the sale.

I contacted B&N support and they gave me a response that it is due to their fraud detection service. There was no solution to buy. They didn't offer PayPal or another gateway. So I had to walk away.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by bluedino on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:39AM (#16392192)
What retailer doesn't have long lines 3 days before Christmas?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by deadbunny on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:48AM (#16392257)
What retailer doesn't make sure they have all checkouts open when you have 50 customers in line?