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Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by rayiner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:28PM (#16389635)
But the rest of the year, the stores are empty. Which validated the company's decision: why have a bunch of full time employees, when what it really needs is part time and flexible employees to handle holiday surges (probably caused by waiting for Amazon shipping to not be an option).
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by blhack on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:50PM (#16389715)
Not the one near me (in Phoenix, near Arizona State University). It's a major anchor in a shopping center, and is busy every time I'm ever in there.

The employees are also really helpful. This Christmas, I was trying to find some books as a christmas gift, and the staff made a bunch of suggestions based on books that they had actually personally read.

Sidenote: finding appropriate books for 8-14 year old girls is really freaking hard.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by auxbuss on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:58AM (#16391488)
Try Frances Hardinge. The Lie Tree [0] won loads of awards. I'm not in the target age range obviously, but my favourite is Cuckoo Song. Her earlier books are definitely for a younger audience. All Hardinge's books have young female protags.

Philip Pullman's, His Dark Materials trilogy [1]. The protag, Lyra, is one of the most interesting young female protags in literature. (This is one of those trilogies that you can reread at different stages of your life and get new things from each time.)

Patrick Ness's, Chaos Walking trilogy [2]. (Read the dead tree versions, because the use of typography adds a lot.)

Also, checkout Malorie Blackman.

You might also want to take a look at the Carnegie Medal longlist [3] (released yesterday) for ideas.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lie_Tree

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Walking

[3] http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/press.php?release=pres_2...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by AnimalMuppet on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:13PM (#16394380)
Note that the His Dark Materials books are a fictionalized advertisement for atheism in the way that C. S. Lewis's Narnia books are for Christianity. If that matters to you, you may want to pick something else.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by auxbuss on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:50PM (#16396754)
My knee-jerk reaction to this unsupported assertion was to counter it as a myth; however, I was reading Alan Garner's, The Voice That Thunders [0], this afternoon – specifically the essay, The Voice in the Shadow – and my understanding of myth has deepened; so, instead, I will suggest this assertion is a canard – and not in the sense of the lumps of sugar the French dip into their coffee.

His Dark Materials (HDM) is a retelling of Paradise Lost [1] – Milton's epic poem of the story of Adam and Eve. Its foundational myth is the keystone of much religion. Pullman is a scholar of Blake, and his grandfather was an Anglican vicar whom he was close to as a result of his father dying when he was young. Pullman knows precisely what he's doing.

Where some Christian groups – I will refrain from labelling them as fundamentalists – seem to have backed into their breeches is with Pullman's portrayal of The Magisterium (which some Catholics believe represents themselves), and that in the telling, Pullman kills God.

The Catholic church has – to say the least – had a colourful history. Much of it sanguine – in colour, that is. That's undeniable. And if a parent should want to censor their 8-14 year old reader from the harm that HDM might thrust upon them with the behaviour of The Magisterium, then they are going to have a whale of a time "protecting" them from history of the Catholic church. Good luck denying Martin Luther's place in history; let alone the Inquisition.

Before I tackle the alleged murder of God, can I point out that the Archbishop of Canterbury loves HDM [2]. This is someone who holds a role first filled by Augustine in 597. (Augustine was quite something. Do read his tale.) If anyone on the planet was going to callout Pullman on atheism, the ArchBofC was the man. Nope. Not only loved it, but recommended it.

And yet, in the US, the books were censored [3].

The most telling expurgation is this from the point of view of Father Gomez (of The Magisterium) watching Lyra (the protagonist):

"And there it was: the dark-blonde movement that was the girl's hair. He moved a little closer, and took out the rifle. There was a telescopic sight: low-powered, but beautifully made, so that looking through it was to feel your vision clarified as well as enlarged. Yes, there she was, and she paused and looked back so that he saw the expression on her face, and he could not understand how anyone so steeped in evil could look so radiant with hope and happiness."

"... he could not understand how anyone so steeped in evil could look so radiant with hope and happiness."

For me, in context, this one of the most beautiful parts in the trilogy, but in the US – the Land of the Free, the bastion of free speech – you cannot read it.

God, of course, is not murdered in HDM. First, let us see how Pullman describes the place of God in his universe:

Balthamos (an angel) said quietly, “The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty — those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves — the first angel, true, the most powerful, but he was formed of Dust as we are, and Dust is only a name for what happens when matter begins to understand itself. Matter loves matter. It seeks to know more about itself, and Dust is formed. The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all. He told those who came after him that he had created them, but it was a lie. One of those who came later was wiser than he was, and she found out the truth, so he banished her. We serve her still. And the Authority still reigns in the Kingdom, and Metatron is his Regent.”

Pullman uses the idea of sentient matter – he calls Dust – as a core theme of his books. This can be linked to panpsychism, which has a broad history and many proponents both ancient and recent.

But the murder of God?

The two protagonists, Lyra and Will, simply open the crystal cell that contains the Authority and he/it dissolves with “a sigh of the most profound and exhausted relief.”

There's no "fictionalized advertisement for atheism" here, however hard you look.

[0] If you are at all interested in storytelling, please read this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1602869.The_Voice_That_T...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost

[2] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3613962/The-Dark-Material...

[3] https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/118137/what-passag...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Kluny on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:07AM (#16390009)
Patricia C Wrede, Mercedes Lackey, Tamora Pierce, Ursula K Le Guin, Judy Blume and Anne McCaffrey are some authors who have outstanding books for girls in that age range, in case you find yourself with the same problem again.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by blhack on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:01AM (#16390259)
Thank you! Any specific stories you recommend? The problem I was having with the things I was looking at were that a lot of them seemed to be basically romance novels for kids.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by thaumasiotes on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:02AM (#16391216)
I am not a girl.

But I liked the Dealing with Dragons series from Patricia C. Wrede (humorous), The Hero and the Crown and The Blue Sword from Robin McKinley, and the Dragon's Blood series from Jane Yolen.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lostcolony on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:40AM (#16392198)
You can get the entire Enchanted Forest series (the name of the series that Dealing with Dragons is the first of; four books in total) for $20-30.

As a male I enjoyed it, and one of my best female friends also remembers it fondly.

I'd also throw in Sabriel, as a YA fantasy novel that I really liked, that had a female protagonist who kicked ass (rather than was there to support a male, or something else equally stereotypical)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by qerolt on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:07PM (#16393777)
I second the Sabriel series. I tend to think Garth Nix is a kind of Neil-Gaiman-starter author. Elements of gothic/horror stuff, but never really too scary for kids (or at least, not for me when I was that age, it tends to depend on the kid in question)
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by thaumasiotes on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:40PM (#16397186)
Just as a counterpoint, I have read the Sabriel series, but I was unimpressed.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by qerolt on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:04PM (#16393756)
Tamora Pierce Recommendations:

For the adventurous tomboy: "Alanna: The First Adventure" and "First Test" are the first books in two different series.

In general a good series: Sandry's Book (Circle of Magic Series)

Some of them do have romances/crushes (Alanna series more than the other two), but they're all focused on adventurous girls doing cool stuff, and the importance of hard work, friends, learning new things, etc. etc. I loved them as a kid (and now).

Source: was an 8-14 year old girl

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Kluny on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:38PM (#16394067)
Lots of good recommendations below, I'll add Pegasus in Flight and The Ship Who Sang as my favorite McCaffery novels. Mercedes Lackey you do actually have to be careful with, because some of her books are reeaaaally smutty. I remember them fondly from when I was 12, but you probably don't want to be the uncle who gives them to her, come to think of it.

Wrede's Dealing With Dragons series is incredible, the Circle of Magic series is a good read (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_Magic), same with the Alanna series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_the_Lioness).

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by mixmastamyk on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:46PM (#16394129)
Check with library and schools.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DanBC on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:38AM (#16391404)
When looking for books for children I look at the CILIP Carnegie award to find winning and shortlisted books. I then noodle around the other books written by those authors.

The award covers a wide range of ages, so some books might be too young.

Here's a press release for the 2018 long list: http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/press.php?release=pres_2...

Here's a list of all Carnegie winners: http://www.carnegiegreenaway.org.uk/archive.php?medal=carneg...

Here are some Twitter accounts that might be useful: https://twitter.com/FaberChildrens

https://twitter.com/PuffinBooks

https://twitter.com/WalkerBooksUK

https://twitter.com/KidsBloomsbury

https://twitter.com/hodderchildrens

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by DanBC on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:46PM (#16396019)
I guess this list isn't massively useful, so here are some actual books.

The Explorer by Katherine Rundell (but anything by this auther, she's written some excellent books) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Explorer-WINNER-COSTA-CHILDRENS-AWA...

The London Eye Mystery by Siobhan Dowd https://www.amazon.co.uk/London-Eye-Mystery-Siobhan-Dowd/dp/...

and The Guggenheim Mystery by Siobhan Dowd and Robin Stevens https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guggenheim-Mystery-Robin-Stevens/dp...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:45PM (#16389933)
It’s weird, but some stores are thriving and others are dying. The one in downtown Santa Monica Ca is super crowded whenever I went there, while the one in downtown Bellevue WA is super dead. My impression of B&N changes quickly....
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by kermittd on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:48AM (#16390199)
Funny enough that one in downtown Santa Monica just shut down after being open for twenty-something years.

Source:

I work/live near there and always went.

Also http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2018/01/barnes_noble_close...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:25AM (#16391339)
Oh, wow! I guess even busy they still couldn’t pay the rent.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:52AM (#16390216)
you mean the one in bellevue near the new amazon building in bellevue across the lake from amazon hq1? I'm not sure that's the best store to example off of.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:30AM (#16391364)
The long time one in downtown, not sure if there is an Amazon building downtown. They closed the attached (real) Starbucks and now it lacks a cafe, even though the Starbucks was always busy the store was still kind of empty.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:13AM (#16392851)
Yeah that's the one I'm thinking of. There are 2 starbucks one block up the hill to the transit center too, so basically 3 on that square block. It was too far down the hill for me to go to when I worked there.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by seanmcdirmid on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:08PM (#16393791)
Bellevue is saturated with starbucks, but very few that were open until 10PM like the one in B&N was (actually, only the Lodge and the original Bellevue store are open late). It was the place for students to hang out studying, but now...there really isn't much to replace it.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by grogenaut on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:40PM (#16398033)
I always went to rock bottom and awkwardly worked at the bar.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by book_mentioned on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:32AM (#16391854)
Might find something worth the $15 here (ends in 5 days):

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/geek-gals-books

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by book_mentioned on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @08:51AM (#16429402)
A new barely relevant bundle: https://storybundle.com/ya

(Hope you see this!)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by kamarg on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:34AM (#16392561)
At the upper end of that age range, the Chronicles of Chaos (https://smile.amazon.com/Orphans-Chaos-Chronicles-John-Wrigh...) is an excellent trilogy. One of my favorite parts about the series is that each of the main characters has a very distinct way of looking at the world (logic, spirits, etc) that helps start conversations about understanding other peoples' point of view.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gaius on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:42AM (#16391645)
finding appropriate books for 8-14 year old girls is really freaking hard.

Start with The Hunger Games and if she likes it that’s next year sorted too, buy her a bow.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by goldenkey on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:45AM (#16391658)
Why not Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? Less violent and more inspirational.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by InitialLastName on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:04AM (#16392345)
Also a more realistic setting/plot.

"hey, let's suppress rebellion in our outlying provinces by drafting their children and making them fight each other."

"wouldn't that cause rebellion?"

"Yep"

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:46AM (#16390414)
Isn't majority of books for them? Anyway, try Asimov if she is closer to 14. 14 is when that stuff is still interesting.

Edit: why the fuck would someone downvote this?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by icebraining on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:24AM (#16391021)
Maybe someone took umbrage with the idea that Asimov stops being interesting after 14?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:39AM (#16391101)
Good point, thank you. I did not realized I might be implying that.

Questions about society, future and such are very interesting at that age, older people tend to be interested in different things (at least I went that way). Asimov packs it together with kinda normal fun to read story which kids at that age like too.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by sp332 on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:05AM (#16393268)
Asimov is an incredibly broad writer. He has some stuff aimed at younger readers, but still managed to be uncomfortably sexist with the Norby novels. Robots of Dawn involves sex with robots. I'm not that familiar with the Foundation series but I've heard Foundation's Edge uses sex to drive the plot.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Frondo on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:06PM (#16393766)
I couldn't finish Foundation, after making it nearly all the way through the book and finding the only woman in the story was someone's secretary. It just felt like very, very dated and boring writing. I don't feel like all his stuff has aged so poorly, either.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:55AM (#16390915)
I would really like to know what is wrong with Asimov as suggestion for 14 years old kid.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:33AM (#16391375)
I downvoted you because of the suggestion that "most books" are appropriate for (and interesting to) 8-14 year old girls. That is so untrue as to border on absurdity.

And, I also downvoted this comment because asking why you're being downvoted is not only dull, it adds nothing to the conversation.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by goldenkey on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:48AM (#16391668)
It does add to the conversation because we have a somewhat binary outcome for a binary recommendation. If recommending Asimov is wrong, why? Don't just downvote opinions you disagree with. Explanations are noble.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:45AM (#16391922)
I don't think recommending Isaac Asimov is wrong. Some people really like his writing (myself included).

If you would read my reply again, you'll note that I said, "I downvoted you because of the suggestion that "most books" are appropriate for (and interesting to) 8-14 year old girls."

Frankly, I don't think that's controversial enough to have to explain.

First, it's flat out wrong to group 8-14 year old girls together. The sheer amount that girls grow between those years makes that highly questionable. The kind of book that the average 8 year old would gain from would be insulting to the average 14 year old. And the kind of book that a 14 year old girl would gain from wouldn't make much sense to the average 8 year old.

And yes, there are outliers, but if your child is an outlier, for the love of all that is holy, spend time in bookstores with her and figure out what she's actually interested in. In distributions like this, outliers tend to have very strong interests that overwhelm all the social pressure. If you're dealing with an outlier, figure out those interests and cater to them.

Second, let's look at the word "most". Do we have to talk about how most popular fiction geared towards adults may not be appropriate for the average 8 year old? And what about interest? I'm a 40 year old man who reads voraciously yet "most" books are neither appropriate, nor interesting to me. There isn't anything wrong with that. It's just that we all have interests.

It's annoying when someone edits a comment to ask why they were downvoted. But, it's flat out dull when they edit a comment and then make an entirely different reply to ask the same thing. That adds absolutely nothing to the conversation.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gone35 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:13AM (#16392407)
[...] I'm a 40 year old man who reads voraciously yet "most" books are neither appropriate, nor interesting to me.

There. Just a friendly suggestion: I think you may be a bit over-extrapolating from your personal experience and your sense of "common sense", to make overgeneralized statements about things as arguably complex and idiosyncratic as "appropriateness" or "interest" in books. (Hence, perhaps, the pushback from other readers.)

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:00AM (#16391994)
I can see how most books would not be interesting to you, but why would they be "not appropriate"? What does the word appropriate means in this context?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:26AM (#16392133)
We're talking over two threads here and I went into this in another comment.

To answer it succinctly, I'll use the programming language example that I used.

Let's say that you have never programmed before, so you come to me for help. I start teaching you. The first lesson, I teach you how to output "hello world". The second lesson, I teach you about monads. Honestly, how do you think you'd do?

There isn't anything absolutely wrong about monads, but I'd tend to argue that they're a little too advanced for someone who only knows how to output "hello world". In this example, I'd say that teaching you about monads in the second lesson was inappropriate - you likely won't gain from it, in fact, it's more likely that learning about monads too soon will actually hurt your progress.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:33AM (#16391856)
The other answer to that question "Maybe someone took umbrage with the idea that Asimov stops being interesting after 14?" did added something to the conversation.

Young girls are primary demographic for reading. While it is true that 8 years old are not there, 14 years old already are. Majority of what is in bookstore is appropriate, maybe boring, but I don't recall running into something super inappropriate while randomly browsing bookstore.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by hluska on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:13AM (#16392071)
First of all, you not only edited your original comment to ask why you were being downvoted, but then you made an entirely different reply to ask the same thing. Repetition like that is dull and adds nothing to a conversation.

Second, I don't think that 8 year old girls and 14 year old girls should be grouped together. I have an 8 year old stepdaughter and she talks to her stuffed animals. She knows (at least, I hope she knows) that Unicorn is stuffed and I make her voice. But, she still talks to, argues with and consoles Unicorn. And, when I meet her friends, she wants her friends to meet Unicorn.

Let's flash forward six years. What do you think she will say/do if I talk like Unicorn in front of her friends? Or, what will happen if her first boyfriend comes over for dinner, I plop a faded old stuffed unicorn on the dinner table, affect a squeaky voice and ask him "do you like unicorns?" That's not appropriate! It will either embarrass her, keep her friends away from me, or otherwise hurt my relationship with her.

Finally, you talked about how you don't recall running into something super inappropriate while browsing bookstores. I'm not talking about Fifty Shades type of stuff. Rather, let me give you an example.

I love The Catcher in The Rye and genuinely believe that every person should be required to read it before being allowed to graduate from high school.

So, that's a book that I would definitely recommend to 12-16 year olds. The thing about the Catcher is that it's best when you've already started questioning the social world around you. Otherwise, it's too easy to declare Holden Caulfield a whiny little twat and not gain from the book.

So, I would argue that while that book is amazing and all kids deserve a copy, not every kid will be ready for it at the same age. So, while the sentiment is appropriate, the book isn't appropriate for every young person at the same time.

Or, in terms of code, let's say that you've never programmed before. It wouldn't be appropriate to teach you "hello world" then go right into monads. There's nothing particularly wrong with monads, it's just that they would be so far beyond you that you wouldn't gain from the lesson.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by watwut on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:52AM (#16392276)
1.) I did not grouped them, parent did in the question. I picked upper range for answer.

2.) I did not objected to your downvote further. I was honestly curious when I asked those questions. (And also appreciated the answer about glib interpretation.)

For the rest, thank you for answer. I guess I have every different opinion about amount of harmful books for kids in bookstores or maybe we have different bookstores around here. At that age, I was freely selecting books from adult section in local library without any supervision or control. I assumed that other girl is the same.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by fatbird on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:53AM (#16390686)
Nothing here validates B&N's decision.

30 years ago I was a part-time employee at a big box store from October to January. Large retailers long ago figured out how to ramp up their workforce temporarily to adequately handle the sales season that accounts for the largest portion of their sales every year.

For any retailer to blow the Christmas sales season by not adequately staffing it, which has been basic retail management for at least three decades, actually does argue for malpractice on the part of executives. It's a criminal level of incompetence, and I'm not sure whether "criminal" means "criminally negligent" or "fraudulent".

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Digory on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:47AM (#16392251)
“Our current strategy isn’t working; our new one doesn’t need full time employees.”

“Well, give ‘em one more Christmas.”

As you say, it’s unthinkable they didn’t see Christmas coming. And it’s equally unthinkable layoffs of this size weren’t planned out twelve weeks ago.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by Noos on Friday February 16, 2018 @12:28PM (#16393972)
They are removing expensive full time employees for whom they pay benefits for. The article said they had planned on doing this anyways, they just did it after a bad season.

As for not adequately staffing it, you simply can't. You cannot get a decent workforce via part time seasonal work. the way it worked before was part timers just took extra hours in peak periods, but Obamacare killed this by forcing any part timer over so many hours to be eligible for benefits, making it impossible to do.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by fatbird on Friday February 16, 2018 @11:09PM (#16398940)
> you simply can't

And yet, virtually every retailer for the last 3+ decades has, in fact, done so as a matter of normal operations.

It has nothing to do with Obamacare. The employment norm was not to only schedule full-time hours for part-time employees (which, even before Obamacare, violated a lot of employment law). Aside from laying off full-time employees after the cycle (which they justified by the crap sales during Christmas), B&N refused to staff-up as normal for virtually every other retailer in North America, to accommodate the most predictable sales cycle in the world... basically in order to justify the firing the full-timers.

This was a hit job by insiders looking to profit off the corpse.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:31PM (#16389646)
Institutional knowledge and loyalty. Your entire staff can’t be flex workers if you expect customers to be treated properly (see: Apple retail for how it’s done well).

Even still, see how Amazon’s flex/contractors handle deliveries (ie atrociously, as there is no incentive to care) vs UPS (a union shop).

You have to align incentives. Your employees’ success is your success. Otherwise, close up shop and go home. You’ve already lost.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ukulele on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:39PM (#16389681)
Comparing the level of customer care at a bookstore with that of an Apple store is pretty unfair. Apple makes hundreds or thousands of margin dollars per customer; a bookstore is probably closer to $10.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:45PM (#16389698)
A better comparison would be Starbucks considering the margins. Not everyone needs to have Apple margins to compensate their retail employees above minimum wage (considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already).
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:54PM (#16389733)
considering the $14 million dollars Barnes and Noble executives have siphoned off already

I don't know, $14mm for the executive team of a company with tens of thousands of employees and 600+ stores doesn't seem crazy to me. Maybe you think that smart, capable, experienced executives grow on trees, but you're wrong. And what smart, capable, experienced executive would ever want to take this job when they probably have much better options with companies who aren't dying?

Would you want to go be lead developer on the Nook team right now, knowing that you probably won't have a job for long, that your equity will be declining in value, that it'll be miserable unless you can miraculously figure out a way to turn things around? Would it be unreasonable for you to only be interested in doing that if you were getting paid very well?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:08PM (#16389783)
They'd probably be better off finding an executive who works for 100k/yr but believes in the company.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:15PM (#16389811)
I doubt it. Belief and passion may be necessary, but they're not sufficient. How do you pick this person? Based on the strength of their belief? Because if it's based on their experience and track record, you're back to where you started: this person likely has better alternatives and is smart enough to want to be compensated for the opportunity cost they're incurring.

Also, it's all well and good to say this when it's not your money on the line, but the board is responsible to the shareholders, and I doubt they're interested in taking a chance on some unproven person who has "belief in the company" as their primary qualification.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:11AM (#16390974)
Well, these fancy pants CEOs didn’t really succeed, did they.

I’m sure their individual point of view, their self interest, it’s perfectly reasonable. But from the outside it’s disgraceful. How do you justify taking a $4m payout after working less than a year? Especially when you know the axe is going to fall on the lowest paid employees.

Maybe you could, you know, skip your bonus, so the people laid off might have a little breathing room.

Frankly, this kind of stuff looks borderline close to fraud. Maybe not a legal fraud, but the fraud of management who wave their hands around to act like they know what they are doing, while they loot the company before it goes down.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by landryraccoon on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:26AM (#16390588)
Actually, I wonder if this is really true. The thing is, a company like Barnes and Noble needs to roll a hard six. Hiring an experienced, competent executive they can afford who wants to work there and ticks off all the boxes etc.. might not be in the cards for them.

B&N needs to think like a Startup again. Vision and dreams might be more important than a Harvard MBA and 10 years of experience at BigCo, Inc. Remember, Barnes and Noble is default bankrupt right now. Their situation in some ways is more like that of a startup that needs to raise capital fast or die than Amazon or Google. That means that barring drastic changes, their trajectory intersects with the ground. Why not take a big chance? Who's more likely to bet big, a young dreamer who wants $100K and a ton of stock, or the experienced executive who wants $5M a year and is going to get majorly paid no matter what happens? They're going to lose everything as it stands anyway.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:18PM (#16389826)
I've done a lot of hiring, and have found that salary demands are weakly inversely proportional to performance.

That is to say, people whose salary demands are at the lower end of the salary range for that career have outperformed those whose demands are at the higher end.

My sample size is small but significant. Food for thought.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by spookthesunset on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:07AM (#16390505)
Meh. The older and more experienced I get the more I realize I work to put food in the table and to pay for my life outside. Working for “passion” is for suckers. As the dude in that one YouTube video about consulting says, fuck you. Pay me.

Pay me what market rate is and don’t give me sob stories about passion or making sacrifices to work on some life changing BS. Pay me.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:18AM (#16391001)
Pay you for what? I don’t think many red blooded Americans resent leaders of companies that are kicking ass, reaping the rewards.

What’s eating away the civic fabric are those who put their own self interest above everyone else.

Once you get up into the millions in compensation, I don’t think the concern is that the poor naive CEO is being exploited by working for less than the absolute most they can get. Especially when the level of pay is so high, that it disproportionately impacts the bottom line.

I’m sorry, this primacy of market and money above all is sickening.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by vinceguidry on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:49AM (#16392661)
The ability to command market salary often depends on your willingness to move for a job. The labor market is not like the stock market.

So if you're supporting a family you may want a new approach for thinking about your career.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:47AM (#16393116)
I'm supporting a family on a semi-remote job (work from anywhere, employer covers my airfare to our offices as needed), and when I unexpectedly parted ways with my previous employer last year, I doubled my compensation in 2 weeks. "F* you, pay me" is a legitimate operating philosophy as an employee when your skills are in demand. Also important to live below your means and have a 1+ year runway of savings to enable you to negotiate from a position of power, but that's a conversation for another thread.

Better said above, "Working for “passion” is for suckers."

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:30PM (#16389874)
That's interesting, but I'm pretty skeptical, and I don't even think it's relevant here, unless you were hiring executives for large but dying companies?

Here's more food for thought: the five biggest companies in the US are all data-driven tech companies that are renowned for paying ridiculously high compensation. Why wouldn't they apply your framework to both save on hiring costs and boost performance?

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:52AM (#16391164)
The five biggest companies in the US by revenue or profit are not data-driven tech companies.

None of the top ten US companies, by revenue, fit that description.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/

Ranked by profit, only Alphabet squeaks into the top ten at number five.

http://fortune.com/fortune500/list/filtered?sortBy=profits&f...

I’m not seeing much correlation here between rank of CEO compensation and company performance.

https://aflcio.org/paywatch/highest-paid-ceos

The fame of the high salaries at tech companies relates primarily to technical staff, not executive pay. These companies are also located in some of the most expensive areas to live.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by gaadd33 on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:50PM (#16397725)
The top 5 in the S&P 500 are 4 tech companies and JP Morgan Chase. The top 5 by market cap are all tech companies.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by b1daly on Friday February 16, 2018 @10:58PM (#16398899)
S&P 500 is primarily a ranking by market cap. It’s a measure of how much the market values a stock. I can see it being a component of size (how “big”). There’s no doubt that the big tech companies are colossal entities.

The market cap of a company is largely based on a bet of the “size” of a company in the future.

Tesla is the most “valuable” US auto maker, by market capitalization. This illustrates that market cap is inherently related to predictions which have a large speculative component, which can be influenced by pure market phenomena.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by lmm on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:14AM (#16390986)
> Here's more food for thought: the five biggest companies in the US are all data-driven tech companies that are renowned for paying ridiculously high compensation. Why wouldn't they apply your framework to both save on hiring costs and boost performance?

Because a) at their scale they need to hire in bulk b) their business (advertising, "media"...) simply don't inspire that level of passion in anyone, so money is all they can do.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by toomuchtodo on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:40PM (#16389916)
Because those tech companies were found to have been illegally colluding to suppress wages of their workers.

It’s easier to hire cheap workers when your actions are keeping wages lower than they otherwise would’ve been.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust...

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by ryanwaggoner on Thursday February 15, 2018 @11:48PM (#16389946)
This is a classic red herring, totally unrelated.

If anything, that undermines the point I'm arguing against: why would these companies feel any need to collude to suppress wages if they could get better performance just by hiring cheaper workers?

Also, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, etc. weren't part of this suit, so again, not relevant.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by cowpig on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:48AM (#16390417)
I think it's more like:

person who really wants the job but is kind of underqualified > person who is highly qualified, but doesn't really want the job (unless the money is right)

edit: I'll add that, for CEOs who should all look amazing on paper and know how to sell themselves, maybe willingness to do the job for less than market is a better signal than most

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by taurath on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:28PM (#16398267)
> How do you pick this person? Based on the strength of their belief?

Apparently the qualification that they care about is "Willing to take $10 million in payments while laying off 1800 to save $40 million". Competence at the CEO level doesn't always have to look like malevolence.

Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by emodendroket on Thursday February 15, 2018 @10:49PM (#16389711)
That doesn't seem to really validate the company's decision not to hire any seasonal workers.
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by heedlessly2 on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:20PM (#16394464)
Why don't most retailers hire workers as independent contractors? They could fire without legal consequences?
Re:The unnecessary demise of Barnes and Noble by raverbashing on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:50AM (#16390896)
Self-checkouts