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Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:24PM (#15570418)
This is the promise of memristors. Despite innumerable articles being written about neuromorphic architectures like they'll be something miraculous, this ability to change from functioning as a bit of memory to being a bunch of functional logic on the fly at the speed of a memory read? That's going to be crazy. It will open up possibilities that we probably can't even imagine right now.

I've never understood why people don't get more excited about memristors. They could replace basically everything. Assuming someone can master their manufacture, they should be more successful than transistors. Of course, I'm still waiting to be able to buy a 2000 ppi display like IBM's R&D announced creating back in the late 1990s or so... so I guess I'd best not hold my breath.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by nyolfen on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:12PM (#15570857)
> I've never understood why people don't get more excited about memristors.

personally, mostly because i've been seeing articles about how they're just about to totally upend computing for the last ten years

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by steego on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:04PM (#15571754)
I've noticed that overly excited articles are tend to be nonsense until they're finally true.

I know that sounds like tautological nonsense, but the trick comes down to predicting when these things will become real rather than if they become real. From my experience, if you want a good indication, look at price/performance trends for a particular technology. If that technology has no price/performance data, look at the price/performance data of its components or related technologies.

If you can't find price/performance data, then don't get too excited yet.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Alex3917 on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:14PM (#15571844)
> I've noticed that overly excited articles are tend to be nonsense until they're finally true.

The funny thing is that if you reread Wired's article about Push, which they've been made fun of for ever since writing it, the only thing that hasn't come true is the technologies they predicted would power it. But other than that it's a perfect description of Reddit, Facebook, YouTube, etc.

https://www.wired.com/1997/03/ff-push/

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by dredmorbius on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:17PM (#15573292)
Funny, but I was thinking pretty much the same thing about push a day or so back myself.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by 1024core on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:56PM (#15571688)
10 years? I've been seeing them hyped as the "next big thing" since the 90s. HP keeps pumping out press releases every so often.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by mitchty on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:02PM (#15571746)
How? The first memristor was created in 2008.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by cag_ii on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:12PM (#15572270)
The concept goes back to at least '71

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1083337/

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by mitchty on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:20PM (#15572318)
Correct on concept, but up until 2008 nobody produced one reliably.

You can find references and hints to them all the way back to maxwell's day. They tended to be regarded as anomalous circuits back then however.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by fao_ on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:12PM (#15572625)
The fact that nobody has produced a fusion generator, does not mean that the amount of articles claiming that fusion is 'just around the corner' is any less.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by e12e on Saturday October 28, 2017 @04:56AM (#15574489)
Well, if they were 10 years away in 2008, that should mean the first 90% is done this year, then it'll be another 9 years for the remaining 10%? So 2026? ;-)
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by daveguy on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:12PM (#15572272)
It took at least that long to go from the theorized device to the first prototype.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by f23r13 on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:35PM (#15573359)
..."hyped as"...
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by cududa on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:38PM (#15571045)
Pretty sure I first read about them in a PC World magazine I got at the airport on a family vacation in like 2003
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by WorldMaker on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:56PM (#15571692)
It's been a dream since the term was invented in 1971. HP Lab's big announcement that they had cracked memristors and they were right around the corner was in 2008 (which is quite nearly a decade ago now).
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Alex3917 on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:53PM (#15571662)
As far as I know I submitted the first ever article about memristors to HN, which was this in 2008:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=177865

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by squeaky-clean on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:55PM (#15573195)
HN has only been around since 2007
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by kbenson on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:28PM (#15573343)
Ambiguous language. I thank what was being implied is that it was the first occurrence of that type of article on HN, not that the article was the first ever about memristers and was posted to HN.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by squeaky-clean on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:57PM (#15576530)
Not really that relevant to the ongoing point of the age of memristor articles then.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by 1024core on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:57PM (#15571696)
There was a world of media before HN, you know. Just saying.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by andrepd on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:43PM (#15572461)
I don't think he was implying otherwise.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by mitchty on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#15571739)
Doubtful, the first purpose built memristor existed in 2008. Though to be honest we've seen them since the 1800's as oddities in certain electrical circuits.

They've been theorized since 1971 mathmatically but until fairly recently haven't been a thing.

It is the fourth fundamental circuit, give it a while before discounting it. And be happy you're alive when the fourth fundamental circuit was discovered and made real.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by 52-6F-62 on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:11PM (#15572255)
Feynman also ranted about how much processing within the memory would speed computing in the 80's. He challenged those "computer scientists" to figure it out :P

.... this lecture: http://cse.unl.edu/~seth/434/Web%20Links%20and%20Docs/Feynma...

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by unixhero on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:15AM (#15574304)
Very insightful post. Thanks for that.

I skimmed the paper and enjoyed the illustrations, and the photos at the end :).

So Memristors are about reversible gates instead of non-reversible NAND gates?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by 52-6F-62 on Sunday October 29, 2017 @01:50PM (#15580387)
I think what he implied was that more reliable calculations would come from reversible gates, though they'd ultimately be slower. The speed being one of the main reasons they weren't used in processor design. One of the solutions for that problem was the parallel design that could compensate for the slowdown of individual calculations by the ability to run many at the same time, and of course the increased rate of transmission by performing the calculations right within the memory instead of the added latency of fetching and storing values every values and performing every calculation synchronously.

So I think it's more that memristors would be a solution that allows the use of reversible gates making for more reliable processors. If anybody else has any better insight, fire away.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by tim333 on Saturday October 28, 2017 @07:31AM (#15574787)
I think maybe the relevant bit - kind of a job to find in 16 pages:

>. Another plan is to distribute very large numbers of very simple central processors all over the memory. Each one deals with just a small part of the memory and there is an elaborate system of interconnections between them. An example of such a machine is the Connection Machine made at M.I.T. It has 64,000 processors and a system of routing in which every 16 can talk to any other 16 and thus 4000 routing connection possibilities.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by tCfD on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:55PM (#15573916)
That's how I heard of them referred to since at least the early 90's, as processor-in-memory. I didn't know memristor was referring to the same concept.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by tigershark on Saturday October 28, 2017 @09:31AM (#15575063)
I still remember something like 25 years ago the revolution of clockless circuits published in SciAm..
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by kazinator on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:24PM (#15573322)
Try 45 years.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by farresito on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:39PM (#15570550)
I can't talk for other people, but I personally don't try to get over-excited over anything unless I see a working proof of concept where the advantages are clear. It's kinda unfortunate, because there's great work being done in research that I should probably feel much more excited about, but I'm continuously bombarded with new discoveries that I never hear about again.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by stcredzero on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:41PM (#15571065)
I personally don't try to get over-excited over anything unless I see a working proof of concept where the advantages are clear.

Those are the two things you need to look for. No proof of concept? Well, talk is cheap! Have a proof of concept, but the advantages aren't clear? Again, talk is cheap. Refine it until the advantages are demonstrable!

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by CalChris on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:38PM (#15573370)
That's fine but it is a very conservative approach. I also can't talk for other people, however I personally get excited about new things without a working proof yet and where the advantages aren't clear. It makes for a lot of disappointment and isn't for the faint of heart. I'd rather see the future as it happens, false starts and all.

So the bleeding edge is where I want to be.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by tasty_freeze on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:29PM (#15570984)
Transistors provide something that resistors, capacitors, inductors and memristors don't, and thus they can't be replaced. That thing is gain, ie, amplification (of either voltage or current). All the others are lossy, so if you imagine some building block, then cascade N of them in a row, eventually the signal will become too weak (at some N) to be useful.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by hinkley on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:33PM (#15571015)
Do you remember when IBM sold off their hard drive research division?

I was convinced this meant they knew memristors were going to kill hard drives soon and they were profit taking before killing them off.

That’s been more than ten years now. I am still waiting, but made other plans.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by deelowe on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:55PM (#15571174)
In all fairness, the hd industry as a whole has shrunk considerably since. Same for servers and PCs. I think they made the right decision, but I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say they had a good strategy for what they would do once they got rid of these product lines.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Aloha on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:08PM (#15572597)
They sold it when hard drives became a commodity item - generally commodity items don't get major R&D attached to them.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by manigandham on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:53PM (#15573415)
There's still plenty of R&D being done with storage: https://www.anandtech.com/show/11925/western-digital-stuns-s...
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by deepnotderp on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:55PM (#15573194)
Well, first off, their endurance is currently not even good enough to replace DRAM, let alone replacing critical path transistors. They also take significantly more power to switch and are much slower. They also tend to be highly unreliable (they even have variable write time!) and hard to manufacture. Really, the only useful advantage they do have is their theoretically incredible density, but even most of this comes from the possibility of 3D stacking (also possible with transistors) and from the possibility of a crossbar memory, but crossbars have epic sneak path issues.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by coldtea on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:06PM (#15571272)
>I've never understood why people don't get more excited about memristors

For the same reason they aren't excited about flying cars?

Because they wait until something is actually delivered that in a form they can use?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by BugsJustFindMe on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:18PM (#15570909)
> I'm still waiting to be able to buy a 2000 ppi display like IBM's R&D announced creating back in the late 1990s or so...

You're not thinking of this and mistakenly adding an extra 0, are you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors#His...

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by hinkley on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:38PM (#15571043)
They were right. Retina displays aren’t even the high PPI ones anymore. They are the equivalent of second generation laser printers.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by BugsJustFindMe on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:18PM (#15571374)
> They were right.

Who was right about what?

> They are the equivalent of second generation laser printers.

What does this even mean?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by hinkley on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:32PM (#15571497)
Roentgen and Retina displays are in the neighborhood of 200 ppi, which is about when laser printers became 'clear' and legible, which was the thesis behind Roentgen.

But now you've got smart phones pushing in the region of 400 PPI. It's smoother, and make Apple displays look like laggards. But they're beyond the point where most eyes notice the difference without magnification.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by giobox on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#15571736)
The PPI required for the "Retina" effect is largely dependent on viewing distance, which is why Apple vary the PPI according to the device, they aren't a blanket ~200 PPI as you suggest.

The Apple Watch and most iPhones (including the original Retina display on the iPhone 4) are around 300-400 PPI, with the X being 458. Only Apple's "Retina" laptop/iMac displays have been around 220, which normally looks great given the increase in the viewing distance.

Wikipedia has a pretty nice breakdown of the PPI of all Retina displays Apple has shipped:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina_Display

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by theyregreat on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:53PM (#15573414)
Higher dpi maybe required for those kids these days whom hold their phones a few centimeters / inches from their eyes. I call it sera rubens myopia, Latin for glowing myopia.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by iainmerrick on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:24PM (#15572684)
But now you've got smart phones pushing in the region of 400 PPI. It's smoother, and make Apple displays look like laggards.

I think Apple displays look completely fine (much better than average, in fact, since they focus so much on color accuracy).

The ridiculous Android PPI arms race is one reason why iPhones are way ahead in all performance benchmarks. What's the point of all those extra pixels you can't even see if the GPU can barely manage to fill them?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by valuearb on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:25PM (#15571926)
There is a lot more to screen quality than PPI. Color fidelity, refresh rates, etc. Retina was great when other displays weren't, now that most devices have retina level displays going beyond that level isn't adding as much as making sure your color reproduction is accurate and your device can update the screen in a rate fast enough that animations don't judder.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by hinkley on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:03PM (#15572573)
I will say I'm perfectly happy with the PPI on Apple devices. If I seemed to be condoning the people chasing numbers to increase sales, that wasn't my intention.

I do joke though that some day Apple will introduce iGlasses, which will be AR glasses with electronically adjustable refractive indexes. When it detects a smartphone in front of your field of view it will zoom in 2x and do image stabilization so you can see your 500 ppi screen.

Like a high tech version of the computers in Brazil...

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by theyregreat on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:48PM (#15573395)
1G started in 1976 with the IBM 3800 at 240 dpi.

HP’s first 2G laser (LaserJet w/ Canon CX engine) was 300 dpi in 1984.

Also I had a 600 dpi LJ 4 which was released in 1992.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by BugsJustFindMe on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:21PM (#15571908)
Thanks for clarifying the laser printer thing. The connection was super unclear. Now who was right, and what were they right about?
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by sliverstorm on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:38PM (#15571047)
this ability to change from functioning as a bit of memory to being a bunch of functional logic on the fly at the speed of a memory read? That's going to be crazy. It will open up possibilities that we probably can't even imagine right now.

There might be clever ways to make a particular circuit dual purpose or something (Storage element that can do math on itself? A math pipeline that doesn't need pipeline flops?)

But arbitrary reprogrammability is already here. It's called an FPGA, and it sees only niche use, not in the least because developing a bitstream to program it with is a huge chunk of work. So the days of a chip that constantly morphs like a chameleon to unrecognizable new forms is probably a long way in the future.

I like to remind myself the industry is called VLSI- very large scale integration. In other words, the job is not about transistors. More than anything else, it's about managing the complexity of billions of transistors. Digital CMOS is a great example; transistors can already do so much more than CMOS, but it's a massively simplifying design scheme.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:19PM (#15571887)
FPGA reprogramming is slow. It's like saying we can make more oil because all we have to do is wait a few hundreds million years for all our plant matter to rot. And correct me if I'm wrong, but can you even reprogram an FPGA while it is actively being used? I don't believe so. Much less reprogram it from the gates which are active.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by sliverstorm on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:05PM (#15572586)
Obviously FPGA is not as slick & fast as a memristor chip could maybe be, but if the economics of a morphic processor made sense wouldn't you expect to see FPGA coprocessors and a library of utility bitstreams to be dynamically loaded as needed?

Of course, the reason we don't see that is the economics aren't great, the performance boost isn't either, and developing those utility bitstreams is a herculean task by itself.

The real world incarnation of all this I would argue is the SoC. Silicon is cheap enough you don't make one mighty morphic chip; you make several dedicated IP's and put them all on one chip.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by blattimwind on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:32PM (#15571985)
> And correct me if I'm wrong, but can you even reprogram an FPGA while it is actively being used?

You're wrong, this is called partial reconfiguration.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by smilekzs on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:17PM (#15572651)
Can you reprogram the part of an FPGA that is actively being used?
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by CamperBob2 on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:49PM (#15573904)
The answer is no, but the sad part is, there's no real reason why not.

An FPGA isn't really a "gate array," but a huge ensemble of small lookup tables that are made with what amounts to very fast static RAM. If major FPGA manufacturers didn't guard their bitfile formats with their lives, it's possible that entirely new fields of research would have emerged to find new ways to take advantage of the existing hardware in these chips, much like what GPGPU researchers have done with graphics cards.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by exikyut on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:17AM (#15574074)
Hmmmm.

I wonder how expensive it would be to make a really really tiny FPGA with a few tens of cells in it.

As in, I realize chip design is expensive and crazy complicated, but small runs are only around $5k or so. I'm wondering if FPGAs manufacturing has similar costs - or at least similar-ish enough to be potentially interesting.

If you could go from zero to tiny prototype FPGA with 5 or 6 figures, you might just be able to pull some VC money out of thin air to kickstart with. Or you might not even need to go in the VC direction, there's bound to be a group of people out there with collectively enough between them to kickstart something like this. I'm uncertain if Kickstarter would be a horrible disaster.

With prototypes made, you'd just need to send a few of the prototypes out to some smart PhDs and hardware hackers, get them to show what's possible, and that could be a viable way to get further investment and complete the bootstrap cycle.

Obviously the point of all of this is to make a chip that's as open as reasonably possible. Physical chip manufacturing is likely to be NDA'd (for example the SRAM would probably be supplied as a reference design from the foundry) but the "how to poke this with software" could be super open. Would be fun.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by jloughry on Monday October 30, 2017 @08:20PM (#15590185)
Here are a couple of articles about a homebrew FPGA (only one logic cell, but it's step in your direction).

https://hackaday.com/2012/09/20/homebrew-fpgas/

http://blog.notdot.net/2012/10/Build-your-own-FPGA

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by exikyut on Wednesday November 01, 2017 @03:09AM (#15599334)
ooo, interesting. Thanks for this!
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by colejohnson66 on Saturday October 28, 2017 @07:58AM (#15574851)
> If major FPGA manufacturers didn't guard their bitfile formats with their lives[...]

Why do they?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by CamperBob2 on Saturday October 28, 2017 @03:15PM (#15576357)
I should say they don't have real reasons, but they have plenty of weak ones. They see their toolchains as part of their competitive advantage, which is weird because FPGA toolchains are some of the most annoying software applications around. The market as a whole could only benefit from additional third party involvement.

Especially at the high end, the manufacturers commonly introduce new hardware constructs -- high-speed transceivers, clock generators, memory controllers, that kind of thing -- and they don't really want to document and disclose the inner workings of these components at a level that would allow third parties to write tools for them. It could potentially take a non-trivial amount of documentation and customer support work. Meanwhile they want to preserve their trade secrets, and they also don't want to attract infringement suits from either patent trolls or legitimate competitors. Disclosure of bitfile formats would open those particular kimonos a bit too wide for comfort. This is largely why Linux users can only get GPU support via binary blobs.

At the low end, some good reverse-engineering progress has been made by people like Clifford Wolf on the Lattice parts. This work is certainly important, but as long as there's reasonably rapid technological progress on the hardware side, reverse engineering is never going to be enough to sustain a healthy third-party tools industry.

It's a real shame. Imagine how far we'd (not) have come if Intel and Motorola had walled off their instruction sets...

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by xellisx on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:33PM (#15570500)
Well with most claims that generalize computing power, such as the title of this, it's mostly aimed at something more specialized.

"The researchers believe this new prototype technology will enable ultra-dense, low-power, and massively parallel computing systems that are especially useful for AI applications."

So it seems that would benefit AI/Machine Learning more than GP processing, from that statement.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by dTal on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:43PM (#15570580)
I'm not so sure. CPUs are stupidly fast, now - the bottleneck is virtually always the time it takes to move data in and out of memory. What if, instead of trying to bring the data to the calculation, you brought the calculation to the data? You could speed up everything.

Fun to think about: in this scenario, the main job of an "optimizing compiler" would be to organize things spatially so that, as a calculation moved around in memory, it always found itself right next to the data it needed, when it needed it.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by randcraw on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:51PM (#15571133)
Computational memory can't speed up 'everything' because most software doesn't benefit from single operations that span a large chunk of data (AKA SIMD ops, as on GPUs). This technique will always improve only a small select fraction of present and future software, like games/graphics, video and voice processing, and general purpose vector operations (like tensor ops in deep learning).
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by marcosdumay on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:00PM (#15571725)
Or programs are not written to use computational memory because there isn't any for them to use.

Besides, computational memory is not restricted to SIMD. It's limited into local memory, but not at synchronized execution.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Dylan16807 on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:56PM (#15573424)
How many programs can even manage to use two full-featured cores in parallel, with everything made as easy as possible? How many even try to do calculations on a GPU?

I'm not holding my breath for more than 1% of programs to use this. Or if it gets built into GPUs, then 1% when possibly excluding rendering code.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by adrianN on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:01AM (#15574048)
How many programs need to? The ten year old laptop I'm writing this comment on is fast enough for everything I want to do. Even my Raspberry Pi is fast enough for almost everything I want to do.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:09PM (#15571793)
There is no reason whatsoever that this would be limited to SIMD operations. They will be easy to do because you just spam a certain set of gates out in an array, but you could be laying down completely novel, or programatically determined, gates instead.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Animats on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:33PM (#15571010)
This idea has come around many times, all the way back to the ILLIAC IV, Thinking Machines, and the NCube. The only commercial success is GPUs, which really do have elements with both compute and memory crunching away in parallel. Other pure-crunch appilcations have been found for GPUs and things like them. There are now GPU-like compute units for servers, although in many cases they're still GPUs, with frame buffers and video hardware that will never generate an image.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by hinkley on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:45PM (#15571092)
I think one could make a case for NUMA systems being a dilution if this concept. But my recollection of the Illiac IV was pretty much what I’d call a NUMA system.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by austin_y on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:06PM (#15570795)
Brings to mind images of Conway's Game of Life, with computations moving about a grid of memory as they create and destroy new bits of data.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Someone on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:56PM (#15571686)
And that brings to mind http://www.conwaylife.com/w/index.php?title=HashLife, an example (of many) of an algorithmic improvement that gives a way higher speed up than parallellizing and throwing hardware at a problem.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by tripzilch on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:43PM (#15575965)
Hashlife is a brilliant algorithm. For anyone not familiar (and vaguely interested in Conway's GOL), highly recommend reading up about it. I found it mildly mindblowing :)
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by zardo on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:48PM (#15571623)
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by coliveira on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:45PM (#15570600)
It makes perfect sense, because this is already how good programmers look at the task, especially considering the penalties for memory access on secondary devices.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:07PM (#15571778)
AI stuff would be easy to implement on it, but general computation will almost certainly benefit just as much once research is done. It's a fundamentally different architecture when your assembly language can include instructions that essentially re-wire the FPGA which is your processor/storage. That makes possible entirely new classes of algorithms.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by lightedman on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:40PM (#15570558)
The researchers are those focused in AI applications and as such I expect them to focus advertising that. This technology has far more potential than just that, right down into simple stuff like realtime waveform or spectrographic analysis. Being able to store and process on the exact same 'silicon' without having to run out a few inches to retrieve data will boost latency-sensitive applications.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by NegativeK on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:33PM (#15570488)
That's why. Memristor articles were all over the news for a bit, but have died down as either companies realized they're too hard to manufacturer or companies have quietly plodded toward making them competitive.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by jerf on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:14PM (#15570880)
"this ability to change from functioning as a bit of memory to being a bunch of functional logic on the fly at the speed of a memory read?"

My excitement is tempered by considering the areal demands on the silicon for the putative "smart memory". Suppose, just for the sake of argument, you want your smart memory to be able to take a 4K block of 64-bit integers and add them together. It happens incredible quickly, sure, though you'd have to get an expert to tell me what the fanin can be to guess how many cycles this will take. But you're now looking at massively more silicon to arrange all that. And adding blocks of numbers isn't really that interesting, we really want to speed up matrix math. Assuming hard-coded matrix sizes, that's a whackload of silicon per operation you want to support; it's at least another logarithmic whackload factor to support a selection of matrix sizes and yet more again to support arbitrary sizes. In general, it's a whackload of silicon for anything you'd want to do, and the more flexible you make your "active memory" the more whackloads of silicon you're putting in there.

It may sound weird to describe a single addition set of gates as a "whackload", but remember you need to lay at least one down for each thing you want to support. If you want to be able to do these operations from arbitrary locations in RAM, it means every single RAM cell is going to need its own gates that implement every single "smart" feature you want to offer. Even just control silicon for the neural nets is going to add up. (It may not be doing digital stuff and it may be easier to mentally overlook, but it's certainly going to be some sort of silicon-per-cell.)

Even if you were somehow handed a tech stack that worked this way already, you'd find yourself pressured to head back to the architecture we already have, because the first thing you'd want to do is take all that custom silicon and isolate it to a single computation unit on the chip that the rest of the chip feeds, because then you've got a lot more space for RAM, and you can implement a lot more functionality without paying per memory cell. And with that, you come perilously close to what is already a GPU today. All that silicon dedicated to the tasks you aren't doing right now is silicon you're going to want to be memory instead, and anyone making the smart memory is going to have a hard time competing with people who offer an order of magnitude or three more RAM for the same price and tell you to just throw more CPUs/GPUs at the problem.

RAM that persists without power is much more interesting than smart memory.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by vvanders on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:21PM (#15570924)
Yeah, this seems like the exact same problems that we already have with FPGAs.

1. They're really hard to program for in a way that is easy to understand and scale.

2. They eat a ton of power. Heat = power = max speed. If you can't make it better then today existing ASICs are still going to be used.

The intersection of ASIC + reconfigurable serial processes(aka sequential programming) strikes a really sweet point between power and flexibility that I think is going to be hard to unseat.

I think FPGAs are incredible but if this were true I think we'd already see them taking over the world.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by posterboy on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:32PM (#15573101)
> 2.

so you don't see the potential combination of this and that?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#15571828)
No, you don't need more gates in each memory cell to support each possible operation. The memory cell turns into gates. They are the same thing, just in a different configuration. And yes, it would be a ton of silicon, likely more than you're imagining. It would subsume all CPU silicon, all cache, all main memory, all mass storage. Into one fabric which at any point can either store data, or compute. And yes, it persists without power too.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:53PM (#15573411)
You've jumped to the idea that somehow this research makes microarchitecture disappear. It won't.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by deepsun on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:52PM (#15570664)
Maybe for the same reason as people don't get more excited about quantum computers -- they can replace basically everything as well, yet we don't see them around.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:42PM (#15571071)
Quantum computers require both very specific configuration for each problem, and cryogenic cooling. Both of those issues mean there's no reason to suspect they will find more than use as a daughtercard any time soon. Memristors, on the other hand, could replace CPUs, RAM, SSDs, bulk storage, FPGAs with one consistent lattice, a totally unified memory architecture, and an economy of scale that I don't believe has ever existed before.

And that's BEFORE you do any of the exotic research of moving the computing elements around during operation. Just imagine if there was no memory hierarchy, where accessing a byte in mass storage is as fast and as easy as accessing a register. Quantum computers can't replace commodity hardware and there's no reason to think they will. Memristors, on the other hand, are one of the fundamental circuit elements and are destined to become as widespread as resistors, capacitors, and transistors.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by adrianN on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:05AM (#15574060)
The speed of light dictates that there will always be a memory hierachy. A nanosecond is just a couple of inches of wire [1]. Communication overhead and heat issues are what ultimately limits computational power [2].

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEpsKnWZrJ8

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_of_computation

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by ChuckMcM on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:01PM (#15570753)
If you open the box their wave state collapses and they are either excited or bored. :-)

(ok that was a long way to make a Schrödinger joke) There are a lot of people who are very excited about Quantum computers and working on them, as they get more 'real' people on the fence move over, etc. I watched this on a smaller scale with 3D printers, as only a few people were excited about them and then as they demonstrated more and more interesting things the wave of excited people expanded outward from that core.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by paulddraper on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:56PM (#15570705)
And of course, people do get excited about quantum computers...millions and millions of $ a year excited.

But yeah, their mostly non-existance is exactly why people aren't more existed.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by AndrewKemendo on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:16PM (#15570893)
I've never understood why people don't get more excited about memristors.

Probably because they have been promising them too long. I remember watching a video lecture in 2008 about how IBM was on the verge of revolutionizing everything with them.

Meanwhile in the same timespan GPU/DNN have upended the computing landscape.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by Illniyar on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:47PM (#15570620)
I thought memristors is RAM that doesn't lose state when losing electricity.

Is this article about memristors? That wasn't clear. Can memristors perform computations?

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by otakucode on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:16PM (#15571865)
Memristors are any device whose resistance changes in response to the voltage that's gone across it in a predictable and reversible way. The phase-change memory they describe is one type. Memristors can form any logical gate. They are essentially resistors whose value can be changed dynamically and persistently. Rather than having them store data directly (which you can do, sure, and we'll probably see devices doing that soon) they can form logic gates in much the same way transistors do - except they can be changed in configuration while running. They can form a set of gates that function as a traditional memory latch one nanosecond, then the next be part of an adder. It's like if re-programming was so profoundly free on an FPGA as to be exactly as burdensome as performing an AND.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by com2kid on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:46PM (#15572098)
That sounds like the optimization problems with a VLIW architecture taken to a whole new level.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by ericd on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:55PM (#15570697)
I'm not an expert on this, but I think you might be thinking of nvram/non volatile RAM, "memristor" is a portmanteau of memory and transistor, so I'd expect that they have properties of both.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by digi_owl on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:07PM (#15570804)
Not quite. memristors are resistors with a memory.

Specifically as current is run across it, it builds up more and more resistance. Then as the current is reversed (the plus and minus ends of the resistor is switched) this resistance will go back down.

Thus it can be used as non-volatile memory in the sense that certain tiers of resistance can be designated as a bit.

Note that as it is fundamentally an analog component one can potentially also used this property to emulate a neuron.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by ericd on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:12PM (#15572615)
Thanks very much for the correction! Removing my foot from my mouth, now.

That's incredibly interesting, especially the idea that it could be used to emulate neurons. I expect that it'd be hard to fabricate them with a very high branching factor, but as I've amply demonstrated, I know very little about this topic.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by markdog12 on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:19PM (#15570913)
Currency? Is it a crypto-currency that runs across it? :)
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by digi_owl on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:24PM (#15570942)
bleeping butterfingers...

Fixed.

Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by deepnotderp on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:10PM (#15570825)
Actually it's a portmanteau of "memory" and "resistor". That's important since it's basically a variable resistance resistor that "remembers" its resistance.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by ericd on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:10PM (#15572607)
Ah ha, thanks for the correction!
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by the_jeremy on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:13PM (#15573272)
I was not technologically inclined in high school, but I distinctly remember a peer talking about how cool they were and how much they could be used to do. This article is the second time I've ever heard the word. So... I guess the fact that it's been 7 years and they're still just "going to do awesome things" is probably a good reason why.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by kensai on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:12PM (#15570850)
The best thing about memristors is that actually this is how the brain really works (at an electronical equivalence). There is no von Neumann architecture in our cortex, rather neurons in networks which both compute and store memories.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by stephengillie on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:40PM (#15571060)
Neurons are routers that apply weights to their inputs.
Re:IBM scientists say radical new ‘in-memory’ architecture w... by kensai on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:30PM (#15571481)
I talked about the bigger picture, neurons IN NETWORKS.