News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mabbo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:39PM (#14755265)
If Google were actually serious about Net Neutrality, they would use their insane market power to protect it.

How? Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail. Have those requests instead redirect to a website telling the customer what their ISP is doing, why Google won't work with them, and how to call to complain to the ISP. Make the site list competitors in the user's area that don't play stupid games.

Is this an insane idea? Yep. Would Google come under scrutiny because of their now-obvious market power? Oh definitely. And Google would probably lose money over it. But it would certainly work.

People don't get internet, and then decide to use Google. They want Google and then get internet for that purpose.

edit: an hour later, fixing an autocorrect word

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:20PM (#14755694)
I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk.

Why doesn't Twitter flex its muscle and cause a national crisis by tweeting "watch out China, nukes are coming" from Donald Trump's Twitter? That ruins trust in the platform, but what if they just banned the US president's account for TOS or something? Enormous amount of power.

What if Musk's first ship to Mars had a hidden Railgun on it? "Anybody else that wants to come to Mars must pay equivalent US 100,000 million per vehicle." Alternatively, "I now own mars, who can come as well is up to my whim."

What if Microsoft issued a malicious patch that gave it access to the NSA's servers? What if Comcast slurped up FBI traffic?

In the internet and space age, corporations are getting enough real power that government power can be outright stepped over. Sure, say Comcast slurps data somehow from CIA and FBI, goes to prez, and says "give us x or we sell this to Russia," the US gov can turn around and threaten to arrest the CEO, or fine them, or kick down doors and start tearing apart infrastructure with the US military, but Comcast could easily say "do any of the above and the data is given to Russia, for free."

Musk has weaponised Mars, a state actor says "unweaponise it or be hanged," Musk can say "well, the cannon is automated, has 300 rounds of ammunition, and will not deactivate unless my secret passcode and the secret passcode of another person who I will not name, are provided. Per detected vehicle."

Etc.

Exciting, fun, terrifying. It can go fantastic for us (Google and Netflix telling telecoms to suck it), or absolutely horrifying (Comcast holding the US government hostage).

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:35PM (#14756416)
Technically, the US President holds the power to end life on Earth should he so desire. To the best of my knowledge, there is no safeguard in place that could prevent such a course of action if it were attempted. Even Comcast's power seems rather pitiful in comparison.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:14PM (#14756748)
To the best of my knowledge, there is no safeguard in place that could prevent such a course of action if it were attempted

I can tell you for certain that there are dozens of safeguards. That scenario not only isn't possible, it's not plausible. Yes the President has the "codes" but those codes don't launch the missiles [1]. The scenario described is one in which there are literally nuclear warheads on a ballistic trajectory headed to the US with a verified source of origin.

I think the trope stays around because people, despite what they say publicly, like the idea of an emperor style president with supreme power.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-nuclear-wea...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by archgoon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:21PM (#14757525)
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood the Bloomberg article. Nothing in it is about checking the power of the president (it says itself the president determines when to end the meetings and whether to ignore advice). It is all about verifying that The President has issued the order, and then ensuring that order is carried out. The President is contacted in this scenario simply because he's the only one who can actually authorize retaliation. He is enabled to do that independently, which is what the nuclear football is for.

Alex Wellerstein is a academic researcher on the history of nuclear weapons, and he describes the situation thus:

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/11/18/the-president-and-...

"""

>>Are there any checks in place to keep the US President from starting a nuclear war?

What's amazing about this question, really, is how seriously it misunderstands the logic of the US command and control system. It gets it exactly backwards.

The entire point of the US command and control system is to guarantee that the President and _only_ the President is capable of authorizing nuclear war whenever he needs to. It is about enabling the President's power, not checking or restricting him.

"""

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:28PM (#14758128)
I was just describing the official process. Having spent 14 years in the military I can tell you that it's more complex than just that.

The entire point of the US command and control system is to guarantee that the President and only the President is capable of authorizing nuclear war whenever he needs to.

Yes, legally and formally. Informally though, as I said, it won't go down like that, especially if it's not completely unambiguous that there is a nuclear attack on the US.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by greggman on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:13PM (#14758463)
this is not my understanding. there is no such checking because in a real threat the president only has about 7 minutes until the enemies nukes fall from subs off the coast. to be a credible deterrent it has to be assumed he can order the launch in less time than that. if verification of unambiguous threat takes more time than that then the enemy can just nuke us confident we'll all be dead before our pres can get his military to accept the order

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-59-the-des...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:33AM (#14758735)
I think you're technically correct, but those arguing with you (particularly those that have served in the armed forces) might cite this as a counterpoint, it takes a lot for it to make it all the way up the chain -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:05AM (#14760039)
who cares about launching on 7 minutes when nuke subs can strike anyway at any time even after the attack ?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:22AM (#14760107)
But who would you give command authority for that? Here in the UK, where we wouldn't even have 7 minutes in the event of an attack from Russia, we rely on exactly that strategy (possibly - the contents of the prime minister's "letters of last resort" to our submarine captains are secret and destroyed unopened when a PM leaves office) - but the flipside is that individual submarine captains have both the authority and the means to launch nuclear weapons without requiring approval from anywhere further up the chain.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:41AM (#14760176)
as far as i know if deep sea subs cannot contact the headquarters for x amount of time they should assume their country was nuked and are supposed to retaliate.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:48AM (#14760499)
That doesn't answer the question. Who do you give the command authority for that decision? Who gets to say "we cannot contact the headquarters", which amounts to being able to launch the nuclear weapons? And obviously if you want them to be able to launch under those circumstances you have to give them any "launch codes" or what-have-you beforehand.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:16PM (#14762554)
In the case of the UK, there is a sealed letter in each Trident sub with instructions from the PM in case the nation's leaders have been terminated.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#14762691)
Yeah, I mentioned the letters of last resort, but while the letter will contain orders, the captain has sole launch authority, and it's difficult to imagine the system could work in a way that avoids that - whatever process you require the captain to follow, they could simply decide to follow that process as though the leadership were uncontactable.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mjevans on Friday July 14, 2017 @04:48PM (#14773038)
I don't know what the actual procedure is; however like with Science Fiction and 'Self Destruct' codes I would think that a multi-agent auth challenge would be required.

The captain and some fixed number of executive officers. Possibly with redundancy for one or two crew being dead. The auth codes would cause a safe to unlock or message to de-crypt.

Presumably the instructions would be delivered to each authenticating member so that all could receive the orders simultaneously.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:20PM (#14762589)
Learning that there only is an "informal" system for nuclear strikes is fairly disconcerting and does not inspire confidence, especially if there are no added details and no available confirmation of what you told us.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by enraged_camel on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:23AM (#14759150)
By the time it became completely unambiguous, it would be too late.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by chumali on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:05AM (#14760042)
From a game theory perspective the aim of the administration is going to be to make the threat of instant retaliation seem credible to any outside observer therefore preserving the effectiveness of nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

In practice however I'd certainly be surprised to learn that there were absolutely zero checks on the process as suggested in the article.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:01PM (#14757717)
The keywords here are "whenever he needs to".

Are there verified nuclear warheads on verified trajectories from verified origins?

Does the US President need to retaliated?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by sooheon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:12PM (#14757776)
The problem is that nobody else's opinion matters. If the president wants to retaliate based on 0 evidence, they can.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by avar on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:31PM (#14756888)
Radiolab did an episode recently[1] which disagrees with that Bloomberg article.

They interview ex-Secretary of Defense William Perry asking him what controls there are, if any, on a crazy president just willy-nilly deciding to nuke something.

He says there's absolutely none, even if the president is in a room full of people who vehemently disagree with him he alone makes the call to launch.

1. http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:04PM (#14757731)
Yes yes, but...

The President can make the call to launch and everyone in the room can ignore him, arrest him, tape his mouth shut.

Or just shoot him.

Edit: fixed a word

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:34AM (#14760152)
Many people were morally opposed to nuking Japan in ww2 yet the president still went ahead and issued the order. Not sure what you expect from the military, they are formatted to follow orders.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:37AM (#14758755)
Yeah, you'd think that if nothing else, our current governmental situation proves that all expected norms should now be discarded. If this dipshit can act this way w/o recompense, there's no reason that the rest of the chain of command should follow orders...
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by throwaway7312 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:59AM (#14760551)
Nuttiness. This is the same President the MSM declared had "finally become President" after he bombed a Syrian air base following a (hoaxed?) chemical attack. Then got attacked endlessly by the MSM for not continuing to bomb Syria and for deescalating the military-industrial "WWIII with Russia so we can all make a lot of money" campaign.

There's an argument to be made for checks on presidential power to wage nuclear war at a pin drop. President Trump pulling us back from the joint establishment Democrat and establishment Republican push for worldwide nuclear armageddon is not it.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:24AM (#14758926)
It's pretty generous to assume that will happen. It might, but it's far from a certainty.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mr_spothawk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:49PM (#14757001)
the Gov has a vested interest in other Govs believing that the president's button can do a thing. i'm not sure who to trust...

but I did learn the word "Verisimilitude" the other day.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:19PM (#14757174)
Ex secretary isn't really part of "The Gov" anymore.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by wwweston on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:39PM (#14757281)
The article you're citing appears to support the point it seems like you're trying to contradict -- it describes a system where the president is given explicit authority at every stage. There are opportunities for others to dissuade him, but he has every freedom to disregard them, and they have absolutely nothing in the way of legal power to stop him.

The only check currently seems to be people disobeying his orders, and even that is accounted for to some extent (see "mutiny is unlikely" in the article you cited).

It remains possible that ranking members of the executive branch and military might cooperate to make sure the president is isolated and unable to execute the protocol, and perhaps even conceivable (if unlikely) that enough of the military would refuse to participate. But that's the only real check, and it extralegal rather than any part of the system.

If you've ever been suspicious of "the deep state", think about that for a minute here, because it's really just another catchy term for the one of a half-handful of checks on the power under discussion here.

> I think the trope stays around because people, despite what they say publicly, like the idea of an emperor style president with supreme power.

I suspect that people really want to believe the system works, it can't be that messed up, someone else thought of this, some one else is paying attention, and they want things to be better, not worse, and they will take care of it for you.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by redy on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:02PM (#14757430)
Mutiny is likely. American officers in particular will tend not to follow orders to commit an obvious war crime. This isn't an extralegal check , it's very much legal.

But the system will fail if "the whole chain is stupid." This is why it's so dangerous to have a President obsessed with loyalty.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:40AM (#14758765)
Yes, and that's why we have so many obligatory legal oaths. It is kind of astonishing that Americans without the internet developed a pretty rigorous system so long ago - Joe Rogan (sorry) summarized it well when he said that smart people think they're smart, but they're actually just regurgitating things they've learned from truly genius people from past generations
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:27PM (#14762645)
What makes you think mutiny would be likely? It would depend on many factors such as the psychological makeup of the launch & command staff and the circumstances du jour. No doubt they made sure independent-minded soldiers likely to be unreliable were not placed anywhere near any silo.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by alexilliamson on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:31PM (#14756883)
I think the article you mention supports the opposing from the one you are defending: that article seems to be saying the ultimately the President can decide to ignore everyone else's judgement and launch anyway. Care to elaborate on the dozens of safeguards? Anything that could actually stop the Donald if he decided he'd had enough?

A recent radiolab episode (http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/) made a pretty convincing argument that any US president could on a whim destroy the world. It goes into the whole history of why that power was given to a civilian, and not the military.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jtmb on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:05PM (#14757739)
It makes for good drama. Like House of Cards. Or Fallout. We enjoy thinking our way through doomsday scenarios.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TylerH on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:02PM (#14756657)
Military personnel are obligated by US and international law to not comply with such an order. Generals have also gone on record when asked about the potential for such crazy orders, and said they would not follow such a command (like nuking Mecca, etc.)
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:43PM (#14756490)
True, something absolutely needs to be done about that. The only failsafe is a US soldier illegally disobeying orders. Actually, most soldiers that have a key would need to disobey orders, because it wouldn't take too many nukes to end life as we prefer it on earth.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mattferderer on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:55PM (#14756599)
Hopefully the soldier is like Stanislav Petrov. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ben_jones on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:08PM (#14757099)
The world should have a national holiday in his honor. Possibly more deserved then any other human in history.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by schoen on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:24PM (#14758305)
A few people have observed it informally:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanislav+petrov+day

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by techdragon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:15PM (#14758092)
I'm going to start celebrating these now. Holidays in honour of the two Russian officers who refused to start WW3
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:29AM (#14758939)
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by nothrabannosir on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:46PM (#14756523)
He would have to avoid triggering the 25th:

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

I.e. he must convince the Vice President et al. that ending all human life on Earth is a good idea.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:54PM (#14756589)
There would be no time. He literally has a phone on the desk that he can launch all the nukes in a few minutes notice, and NOBODY can stop him without illegally refusing to follow orders (hope to god they would obviously) but assuming everything works as designed the world would end.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by valuearb on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:36PM (#14757597)
For the US military its not illegal to refuse to follow an illegal order. The US Marines have this drilled into them, not sure about the other services.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:55PM (#14758001)
Sure, but you may have next to no information in that little amount of time to make the determination. For all you would know sitting at the terminal, that Russian/Chinese ICBMs were on their way. There was a Radiolab episode about this recently. It's tough to become one of the officers in this position and are heavily selected for those that would act unquestionably on orders. Any hint of questioning orders/superiors/the system gets you kicked out. This was done so that there would be no question in our rivals minds of our intent to follow through with the MAD doctrine.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ismarc on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:41PM (#14757934)
I can confirm it's drilled into Army soldiers as well, so I'd bet on the air force and navy being the same way.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#14762685)
It's one thing to pledge to this, yet another to actually be in the silo with the alarms blaring and the the orders coming in with seconds to spare. It's impossible to predict in advance how someone would respond to this situation.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:39AM (#14760169)
How is an order from the chief of the military ever considered illegal?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by 7Z7 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:30AM (#14762108)
It worries me that this is a legitimate question. The chief of the military does not define law.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:30AM (#14770047)
Yes, but in the army you are told to obey its superiors and to follow the hierarchy. The top of the pyramid is the president. Who will challenge him?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by briandear on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:22PM (#14756811)
Not exactly true. There is a two man rule to launch. On paper the president has the power, but there are extensive safeguards in place.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by bdamm on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:18PM (#14757509)
Not so. The nodes in the command chain have little if any ability to question the order they've been given. Officers are even selected based on their ability to carry out orders unthinkingly. In the US military, an order from POTUS is the ultimate command. The only part of the chain that matters is at the very top, specifically, the armed individuals who surround the President. They can choose to stage a coup or declare the President medically unfit.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by umanwizard on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:31PM (#14757877)
They have little authority to stop the order, which is not the same thing as saying they have no ability. In practice they are human beings and a Stanislav Petrov situation is totally possible.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:42PM (#14756958)
AFAIK the two man rule is to prevent a rogue soldier from launching, they have no authority to question orders from the president.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by willstrafach on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:32PM (#14756891)
They are not allowed to override POTUS.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by KGIII on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:29PM (#14757227)
I also wasn't allowed to smoke pot, while enlisted.

Which is to say, the orders may not be followed by the persons at the switch. I make no claim that they will, or will not, be followed. I merely point out that rules aren't always followed.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:21PM (#14757186)
Correction: Overriding POTUS is illegal and has consequences that do not include the planet being nuked.

They absolutely have the real authority (ability) to refuse the order, and then the real authority to prevent the nuke from being launched (by eating their key, shooting anybody else that comes into the room, shooting the key/console, etc).

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by voxic11 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:43PM (#14757315)
Though as I understand it each missile site has its own control and 2 man system. Even if only 1 out of 10 obeyed their orders and launched it would likely be the end of mankind or at least civilization as we recognize it.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Nition on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:53PM (#14756021)
I love these ideas because - apart from the railgun one - the far-fetched part isn't even whether those things are possible, it's just whether anyone would want to.

The Twitter nukes one wouldn't even have to ruin trust in the platform that badly. They could say the president's account got hacked. Hell, blame the hack on China if you're already trying to start a war there.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by sappapp on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:07PM (#14756168)
You have some serious thinking to do
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:13PM (#14756210)
If you're going to offhand dismiss someone's imaginative ability, I think the onus is on you to provide a little more insight than "you're stupid."
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:23PM (#14756812)
It's going to happen. It's not question of if, but when.

If a corporation succeeds in building General AI with enough hooks into basic infrastructure, and a loyal enough employee base, then they will have a more powerful weapon than any nuclear bomb. They can then build their own drone army that no conventional military could stand up against.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by erikpukinskis on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:22PM (#14757829)
First of all, General AI is science fiction and there's no detailed theory to suggest it is even possible, beyond hand wavy neuron/transistor-count models. All evidence so far suggests a human-like gestation/development is necessary, and such a development would negate any advantage such an AI would have over traditional human cyborgs.

Second, what about an AI would give them an advantage over cyborgs in building drone battalions? Aren't conventional human cyborgs doing that right now?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mdpopescu on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:15AM (#14760621)
> Aren't conventional human cyborgs doing that right now?

Yes, it's annoying to me that people who believe AI to be extremely dangerous forget that people themselves can already do all that nasty stuff.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:23PM (#14762606)
Who isn't assuming that? My whole point was that instead of having to recruit humans to enforce coercion, we can build our own soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines to do it.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mdpopescu on Thursday July 13, 2017 @03:01PM (#14764138)
Recruiting humans is exactly how we build our own soldiers at the moment. (Like they said in the army, "we do have a potato peeling machine - you're the latest model".) Why is another way of building soldiers bad? Only because it's new, and new is scary?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:04PM (#14764677)
I never said it was, just that it was likely. I think people assume my top level post is negative. It's not negative, it's likely.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by zer0tonin on Thursday July 13, 2017 @04:58AM (#14759782)
> there's no detailed theory to suggest it is even possible

Not much that suggests it's impossible either.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mr_spothawk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:43PM (#14756969)
> I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk

"go on..."

> What if Musk's first ship to Mars had a hidden Railgun on it?

"oh god... don't stop!"

> ... the secret passcode of another person ...

brilliant.

yeah... we (in the US) gave AI/meta-cognative-entities/"corporations" a type of inalienable right with the Citizens United ruling. and now the gov't is going to find out what happens when those entities start testing the boundaries of their container. (plot twist: the container walls are permeable)

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by colejohnson66 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:31PM (#14757234)
> yeah... we (in the US) gave AI/meta-cognative-entities/"corporations" a type of inalienable right with the Citizens United ruling.

Except that's not true. Corporations have always had personhood. See 1 U.S.C. §1[0]:

> In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise—

> ...

> the words "person" and "whoever" include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals;

Corporations being people is what allows them to own property, use the judicial system (to sue), etc. Basically anything corporations are able to do is because they are people. The speech of a corporation is protected under the First Amendment. Donating your money to a non-profit is a form of speech, no? If I donate $25 to the EFF, I'm agreeing with what the EFF does. That's a form of expression that is protected under the First Amendment. All Citizens United v. FEC did was affirm that money can be a form of speech.

Citizens United didn't establish any president of corporate personhood anymore than Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 US 394 (1886)[1] did back in 1886.

[0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/1

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern....

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by gech on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:31PM (#14758137)
> Corporations have always had personhood.

Always? You cite the U.S. Code, which was first published when? 1926.

>Donating your money to a non-profit is a form of speech, no?

It's a hell of a lot different when it comes to influencing people during elections. Bad analogy, and an insincere play to the audience here with the EFF. If we allow money to be speech, we allow outsized influence on governance by a few. Corporations have much more money to spend on campaigns which works against the public interest.

> Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company

The precedent of corporate personhood didn't even come from arguments in the case, it came from an oral remark by the Chief Justice Morrison Waite, who earlier worked as a lawyer for railroads. It was recorded by the court recorder J.C. Bancroft Davis, who earlier was a president of a railroad. The precedent and its house of cards should be thrown out.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:33PM (#14757584)
Note that corporate personhood also allows them to be sued. Used to be that, if someone ran a train into your house, you could sue the driver (if he survived) and maybe his immediate boss. Personhood makes the corporation as a unit responsible for the actions of its employees.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mr_spothawk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:35PM (#14757261)
> Except that's not true.

You're right.

And now there's precedent.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:22PM (#14757191)
>we (in the US) gave AI/meta-cognative-entities/"corporations" a type of inalienable right with the Citizens United ruling

Holy shit I hadn't even considered this, this is awesome. New story idea.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mr_spothawk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:39PM (#14757289)
In describing "Metacognates" to friends I often use the example of FedEx as a weird type of animal which eats gasoline and shits boxes on doorsteps.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lsseckman on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:25PM (#14758308)
I like this, I'm using it.

I'll contribute that this is a good way to explain to someone why corporations inherently care about their employees only to the extent of their usefulness.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by tomsmeding on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:21PM (#14757188)
Worth noting: Comcast slurping up FBI traffic won't be very profitable, I think. Assuming that the FBI is smart enough to use encrypted communication (https is really easy nowadays), Comcast is up for a challenge if they want to get interesting data.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by zabana on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:58PM (#14756626)
> I love this idea because I read too much cyberpunk.

Can you recommend some novels ? (I'm also a cyberpunk nerd) Thanks in advance

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jacquesm on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:01PM (#14756650)
The Musk play is straight from Snowcrash where a 'nuclear sovereign power' (a dude on a motorcycle with a nuclear bomb in the sidecar passenger seat keyed to his heartbeat still going strong) runs roughshod over just about everything with impunity.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:10PM (#14756706)
+1 to jacquesm's suggestion, as well as pretty much the entirety of Neal Stephenson's library of work. Diamond Age and Anathem in particular.

For me there's a lot of crossover between Cyberpunk/scifi, the only difference being time period, so I'd throw in the Culture series and the Revelation Space series.

The Stars my Destination (grunge as fuck)

Neuromancer, though I'm sure you've already read it.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lelandbatey on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:24PM (#14756818)
A book series that's, at least to me, frighteningly close to home while also being entertaining and totally interesting in it's premise is the Nexus trilogy by Ramez Naam. You could easily read only the first book, but the trilogy was a good read for me. You can find it on Amazon here:

https://www.amazon.com/Nexus-Arc-Book-1/dp/0857662937

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by enneff on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:44PM (#14757947)
> The Stars My Destination

Just wanted to chime in and say that this is one of the great SF books. Alfred Bester at the height of his powers. Gritty, fantastic, political, emotional, psychedelic, and epic. A truly astounding work, especially when you consider it was written in the early 1950s.

If you like science fiction: READ THIS BOOK.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by okey on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:44PM (#14756970)
Hardwired
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by adventured on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:40PM (#14755895)
> but what if they just banned the US president's account for TOS or something

Because the US Government has terrifying amounts of power and can be very spiteful.

Their ability to easily intimidate corporations has been demonstrated time and time again. See: NSA v tech, Qwest, broad anti-trust powers (which have nothing to do with monopoly and everything to do with subjective definitions), SEC, FTC, FCC, national security powers, executive orders, and the list goes for days.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by BinaryIdiot on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:45PM (#14755939)
I think parent's overall point is that the private sector has amassed quite a lot of power that could overstep / bypass the government entirely. It's not outside the realm of possibility that a team of rogue people in one or more social companies could literally trigger a war or worse.

It wasn't about one specific, small example but the big picture. Since these companies care about profit and the people running the companies likely care about their lives I'd imagine much of this wouldn't ever happen but it's all technically possible which, compared to where we were say 20 years ago, is just absolutely amazing in every sense of the word.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by adventured on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:49PM (#14755985)
> the private sector has amassed quite a lot of power that could overstep / bypass the government entirely

I understand and that's a fantasy at best, which was my point. The US Government is radically more powerful than any corporation inside of its domain. It's not even remotely close. They're more powerful than every corporation in the US combined.

The moment they send federal agents to shut down Google HQ (even if it's just for a day) and begin arresting people on terrorism charges (doesn't matter if any of it sticks, they never have to stop coming), specifically targeting management, and then walking them through & out of the buildings in handcuffs - Google instantly capitulates as their stock collapses by 20% in one day. And that's the easiest of moves the Feds can make, that's a trivial demonstration of their power to intimidate.

Then the IRS begins pursuing any exec they want to. They can do horrific things to anyone at any time, even if it doesn't stick long-term it still makes your life hell - and they never have to stop coming.

Then x y z, forever, paying their bills with your tax dollars and the infinite fiat machine.

Their initial efforts don't work? They change the laws tomorrow to give themselves a new sharp stick. They only really need one really nasty stick, and they have dozens already.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:10PM (#14756187)
But that's exactly my point - the US government has the kinds of enforcement power that deals with sending in troops to kick down doors and lock people in steel cages.

Google has the kind of power that staves off that from even happening in the first place. The US government isn't a singular entity, it is comprised of several hundred individually powerful people. Three branches, plus several military branches, each with their own branches of authority and people of power. Then you have states with their own 3 branches and national guards, police. You have a national police equivalent (NSA, CIA, FBI, ATF, Border Control).

That's a lot of people google can go to and say "Interesting that you are into midget porn, I wonder what would happen if the whole world knew that?"

That's a lot of people google can go to and say "Did you know that your neighboring state's governor is having an affair with a man? Give us this land grant for server space and we'll give you the proof."

"Give us guaranteed protection from the Fed and we'll give you the entire query history from all whitehouse IP addresses."

"Do not fuck with us or we will DDOS every single DNS server in the world with our absurdly massive server infrastructure."

"Do not fuck with us or we will turn the public against you by messaging the 63,000 people using our site per second"

"Do not fuck with us or we will make your very existence invisible to 80% of the people on the internet."

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by imcrs on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:50PM (#14756550)
After issuing their threat, and getting "no" back, they would say -- "We do not negotiate with terrorists" and go in with the guns. Collateral damage be damned.

That's how wars happen, and why it's a bad idea to make ultimatums to the US government.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:12PM (#14756732)
Again, I'm not suggesting Google issues a public statement before a congressional panel - "do the thing we want, US government, or we'll get ya!" I'm saying they could be much more insidious with the kind of power they have.

Like the King's head Surgeon - he could never take on the King in hand to hand combat, but he can certainly poison him slowly, over time and invisibly, in return for more consolidated power or money or some other such thing from the King's son.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:25PM (#14756826)
I don't think anyone would bother with guns. Order ISPs switch off access to Google's servers and CDNs, order power regulators cut off their power, freeze their bank accounts (as well as those of the executive, employees and vendors) and declare them insurrectionists. If Google truly tried to act with insurrectionist intent, I'd expect (and want) our government to react forcefully.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:30PM (#14757228)
I'm just playing along with the fiction at this point, so here's my response:

1. Order ISPS to switch off access to Google's servers and CDNs. Most internet traffic stops working as any website using a google CDN breaks, all analytics stops working, internet advertising breaks almost entirely, the internet is suddenly a less profitable and very scary, mostly unusable place. Google releases as its death-throes the fact that the ISPs are entirely to blame for this, gives coordinates of ISP offices and pitchfork emporiums. Customers revolt, UN issues a missive reminding the world that access to the internet is a human right.

2. Order power regulators to cut off their power - Pretty similar to above. Internet stops working very well, except Google continues to work in other countries, and suddenly it doesn't really make sense to do business in the USA. Google employees flee abroad where they can. Opportunistic countries take advantage of this and grant asylum.

3. Freeze their bank accounts - best idea yet, I think, except for I'm not sure how it would be implemented. Government order comes through declaring "Alphabet, Inc" to be entirely comprised of terrorists? Not sure. Either way, Google goes the way of Pablo Escobar and talks directly to bank VPs - "give us some of the money / give us a warning you get a freeze order / whatever, or we tell the world about your midget porn / location of all your private estates / your tax fraud." Alternatively, google uses its near total access to civilian populations to cast the US government as a totalitarian dictatorship issuing a coup against the American people's access to free information and fosters a revolution.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:44PM (#14757324)
> Order ISPS to switch off access to Google's servers and CDNs. Most internet traffic stops working as any website using a google CDN breaks, all analytics stops working, internet advertising breaks almost entirely, the internet is suddenly a less profitable and very scary, mostly unusable place

The scenario is insurrection. Communications going down while people are arrested is perfectly acceptable.

> Google goes the way of Pablo Escobar and talks directly to bank VPs

Bank VPs have no control over dollar clearing and settlement. In any case, violating an OFAC freeze is automatic jail time for lots of people. Nobody messes around with this.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by BinaryIdiot on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:59PM (#14756086)
> The US Government is radically more powerful than any corporation inside of its domain. It's not even remotely close.

For sure, that was never in dispute. No one pretended there wouldn't be consequences, either. That was never the point of my post or parent's. Take a look at the examples for what was being referred to.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by notyourday on Thursday July 13, 2017 @09:30AM (#14761031)
> I think parent's overall point is that the private sector has amassed quite a lot of power that could overstep / bypass the government entirely. It's not outside the realm of possibility that a team of rogue people in one or more social companies could literally trigger a war or worse.

Let's not kid ourselves - well before that happens there would be "Guys with guns" to see them which would stop all possible posturing.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by RugnirViking on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @06:58AM (#14795590)
Whoa whoa, Broad anti-trust powers? are you saying you believe the US isn't in the stranglehold of several monopolies right now? That if we were to just relax our rules a bit(how??), everything would be fine? That is a viewpoint I seldom hear these days...
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dingo_bat on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:03PM (#14758033)
> cause a national crisis by tweeting "watch out China, nukes are coming" from Donald Trump's Twitter?

Are you serious? That would cause actual people to die. And Twitter will end up with a huge lawsuit.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by meddlepal on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:16PM (#14758093)
We're about 1 security breach away from Twitter becoming a serious national security issue. I hope Trump has 2FA to login, but if someone got past Twitters internal system and started tweeting as DT then really bad Shit could happen.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dingo_bat on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:06PM (#14758254)
I would hope Twitter has taken extraordinary steps to secure the US president's account.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by rad88 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:16PM (#14758472)
The account for sure. I wonder about everything else though? Maybe it's naive but it seems like you could create a "presidential" tweet anywhere from their DBs to their CDNs.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by tkxxx7 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:27PM (#14766512)
not hard to imagine his tweets are sharded onto a dedicated server beneath the White House or something.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:30AM (#14758947)
The point isn't that they wouldn't do it because of the consequences, but rather that a random company can wield this amount of power.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by zaphar on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:15PM (#14758087)
In that scenario a lawsuit would be the least of Twitter's problems. Best case scenario could easily be a treason charge.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:03PM (#14763615)
US law only allows for treason charges during time of war.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by zaphar on Monday July 17, 2017 @11:49AM (#14789630)
I don't think that's true? Admittedly You could perhaps parse the statute[0] in a way that might imply it. But I think the point is that if you give aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States that you fall under the definition regardless of whether you are officially in a war or not.

[0]: https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A3Sec3.html

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by takeda on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:04PM (#14757085)
This also goes deeper with things like GovCloud. Where government now no longer uses their own data center.

This theoretically gives a company power to shut the government if they really wanted to.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by samstave on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:30PM (#14758322)
I love all things cyberpunk.. whats your favorite story?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by bnewbold on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:58PM (#14755473)
To state the obvious, this proposal is antithetical to the concept of network neutrality.

Also, the belief that there would be "competitors in the user's area that don't play stupid games" that offer comparable services (eg, within a factor of 5x bandwidth-per-dollar value) seems to be a misunderstanding of the utility/monopoly/duopoly economics in play in many regions of the USA.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by guelo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:17PM (#14755681)
Network neutrality means that the network transit is neutral, endpoints such as Google are free to do as they wish. For example Google already blocks youtube videos based on ip address geo region.

But I agree that it wouldn't work because the ISP monopolies are more entrenched than the web service monopolies.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mabbo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:05PM (#14756142)
> this proposal is antithetical to the concept of network neutrality

Exactly the point I'm trying to make. If Google turns around and says "Fine, you don't like net neutrality? Let me show you how this works both ways".

The ISPs do not make the product, they sell the access to the product. If the product goes away, then they aren't selling anything at all- and their customers will stop paying them.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ucaetano on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:17PM (#14756256)
You talk like customers actually have a choice in ISP...
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by drcube on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:11PM (#14756722)
There's always a choice. Suppose your ISP started charging you $10,000 per month for the service you have now? Would you pay it? Could you? No, you'd probably just go without home service, or rely on your cellular data plan, or get dialup, or just take an internet sabbatical until the ISP cleaned up their act.

For some people, their tolerance for bullshit is less than others. For those people, perhaps charging a dollar extra for YouTube access is enough. It only takes a fairly small percentage of customers to put a lot of pressure on service providers. Monopoly or not.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by sushid on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:37PM (#14756932)
That's a poor way of trying to weasel out of the actual definition of monopoly, which is defined as "a company or group having exclusive control over a commodity or service"[0].

What you're describing is a substitute good. When the "choice" is to not purchase said product/service and look to alternatives, you're literally describing the effect of a monopoly.

[0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/monopoly

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by drcube on Thursday July 13, 2017 @10:34AM (#14761558)
I'm not trying to weasel out of anything. Of course they're monopolies.

My point is simply that a monopoly isn't some sort of God-emperor who can do anything without consequence. Even monopolies have to bow to customer pressure, they're just less sensitive to it than companies in more competitive industries. Supply and demand applies to monopolies, too, that's why their prices might be higher than they would be in a competitive environment, but their prices aren't infinite. "Going without" is always a choice, even if there are no competitors.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ucaetano on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:07PM (#14757093)
We're talking about reasonably priced broadband services, no need to be pedantic or literal.

You can always put money on the lottery several times, win, buy your own satellite and have your own DTH service. Or kill yourself, so that you no longer need internet.

So no, there isn't always a choice in broadband service. And most times, there isn't a choice at all.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by throwaway2048 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:37PM (#14756930)
The idea that people should be willing to go without Internet, and if they don't they clearly don't care enough is self defeating and silly.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by thegayngler on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:28PM (#14758505)
Umm there is always a choice as to wether or not you want to use a good or a service.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by erwinkle on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:07PM (#14756689)
Yep, most places I've lived, I've only ever had 1 option (unless I want to pay for satellite internet lol)
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by takeda on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:16PM (#14757154)
IMO the reason Google doesn't do much here is that they are in a very good spot here. They are not in any danger, and if anything ISPs would probably pay them to provide their service.

So I doubt Google would ever do anything at this point.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by raverbashing on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:29PM (#14755793)
Of course it is

If ISPs don't see the point in it then they can't complain when other don't follow it (and they get the shaft)

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by baq on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:35PM (#14755857)
> To state the obvious, this proposal is antithetical to the concept of network neutrality.

the culture employs special circumstances when the situation exceeds the moral capacity of contact.

or to put it differently, sometimes outside forces are so strong that you either let your ethics... be flexible for while or just disappear in the annals of history.

whether OP's particular action would be effective is a different question - bing, ddg or baidu would gladly jump at the opportunity if this wasn't coordinated.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ZainRiz on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:39PM (#14755890)
Therin lie dragons

That's how you start thinking it's okay to drop napalm and nuclear bombs on cities since "it'll end the war faster"

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by civilitty on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:56PM (#14756052)
I think it's a bit disingenuous to compare net neutrality to a total war, regardless of the comparison made.

Anyone who doesn't subscribe absolutely to radical honesty or to a morality handed down by an all powerful being has to make these kinds of decisions in their personal life all the time and rarely do those decisions have as much impact as net neutrality. Large companies are made up of people and they shouldn't get a pass when they stand by and watch as when the very foundations of their industries are destroyed by extreme rent seeking just because they have shareholders to answer to, most of whom are in a far better position than the employees of the companies to jump ship when their investments don't behave like they'd like them to.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by thehardsphere on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:51PM (#14756006)
But that is OK if it does end the war faster, where "end the war faster" is understood to mean "millions fewer people will die"
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by baq on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:51PM (#14756003)
yes. i've never said i think it's fine, it's just (to me) obvious that it's how some people think and how the world works due to the fact some of those people were given power to rule, or took it themselves.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by hoorayimhelping on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:34PM (#14757588)
Workflow:

1. I pay an ISP to provide me with internet service

2. Google cuts off services from my ISP I've already paid.

3. I call my ISP and say "google told me to complain to you," they say, "thank you for your feedback."

4. I look for a competitor. There aren't any, or the competitors don't suit my needs. Which is why this problem happens in the first place. If I could go to a competitor, I would. This is the key assumption that the whole scheme is based on and from what I understand, for most Americans, it is flat wrong.

5. I don't use my ISP's bandwidth cause Google is blocking it. I've paid them money. My continual complaints tie up a cheap call center which inconveniences them very slightly, if at all. They still have my money, plus the costs for the services they're offering me just plummeted cause I'm not using any bandwidth cause I can't access the internet. They win, I lose.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by nine_k on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:48PM (#14757657)
For the technically literate, three letters: VPN.

Unfortunately, they (we) are a minority.

Also, it's double expense, especially if you do something like Netflix.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mayneack on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:16PM (#14757799)
What's to stop them from de-prioritizing or blocking traffic recognizable as VPN?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dingo_bat on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:04PM (#14758040)
Also VPNs can be blocked easily. Look at China.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by RugnirViking on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:15AM (#14795657)
In china it is part of normal life to use a VPN. They are most definitely not blocked.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AmIFirstToThink on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:44PM (#14757637)
You can use cell phone data.

Or buy internet from phone company instead of cable company.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by brokenmachine on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:54PM (#14757681)
These are both not reasonable alternatives for all people.

Cell phone data is usually much more expensive and often people don't have a lot of choice on what connection options they have.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by bogomipz on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:30PM (#14755806)
Using regular folks who are already a captive audience, as foot soldiers against big telecom is not very efficient and probably a non-starter from a PR perspective.

What is the net result of this? People call up and complain to their ISP? Complaining hasn't worked yet and that's the problem. You can complain all you want but when there's no competition it doesn't matter.

A far better idea in my opinion would be for Google to spend money and muscle in partnering to provide municipal broadband.

If people had a choice between a municipal broadband provider that preserved net-neutrality or choosing the existing duopoly that wants to "rent seek" then I think the net-neutrality issue might finally be able to be put to rest.

There are some case studies in successful municipal broadband deployments here:

http://www.bbpmag.com/snapshot/snap0612.php

Google is already partnering with NYC via Sidewalk Labs. See:

https://sidewalklabs.com/about/

and LinkNYC is already up and running, so its not much of a stretch:

http://screenmediadaily.com/citybridge-to-launch-linknyc-lar...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by wildmusings on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:33PM (#14757242)
Your key assumption is that Google has all this market power. They don't. The only, and truly ONLY, reason that they're so big and powerful is that everyone automatically goes to google when in need of search. Their business would disappear in a hurry the day that changes.

What's one way that could change? Google stops working for millions of people, so they start using another product.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by RugnirViking on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @07:18AM (#14795669)
And gmail and android and angular and adsense and chrome browser and youtube and google maps.

Essentially, what i'm saying is they are not, and have not been for a very long time, about search

The money is mostly coming from advertising across these services and especially adwords and adsense

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by krath94 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:11PM (#14755622)
"Yeah we're gonna teach them that censorship is wrong by censoring people!!!"
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by kingbirdy on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:28PM (#14755781)
But they'd just be censoring themselves
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by reitanqild on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#14756376)
Yep. That was the point I guess.

Sometimes it seems easier to communicate something by stating the opposite and let people work out themselves why this is a bad idea.

[dead]
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by yellowapple on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:41PM (#14756953)
Welcome to Hacker News!
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AdamJacobMuller on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:22PM (#14755720)
Sadly, irony like that is lost on a lot of people these days.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by acomjean on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:21PM (#14755709)
I like it.

If you've ever experienced the not too occasional fighting between cable companies and some of the networks they carry, it can get ugly. With both sides claiming they're in the right. Sometimes the channels even go off the air because the cable company won't pay what the networks want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_dispute

The only problem is if say google pulls YouTube from comcast, its not like customers have a plethora of other internet providers to choose from, so they suffer.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by cwkoss on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:59PM (#14756632)
Would be better to not block, but show a 30 second video explaining why comcast sucks before each video.

If you're blocked, you'll only see the message once. If you have to watch a video before instead, you'll get angrier and angrier each time.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ygaf on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:36PM (#14757262)
Don't preach to users that $ISP is bad, just tie the inconvenience in to lack of net neutrality.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mikegerwitz on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:59PM (#14762937)
I strongly support net neutrality, but this is dangerous.

First: this is pushing the onus on the consumers. Not just pushing---forcing, even. My grandmother, my wife even, doesn't care about net neutrality---they want to use the Internet. I've seen suggestions of using a VPN, and I use Tor for all of my Internet traffic, but this is an even _greater_ onus on consumers. It's a far bigger impact than the abolishment of net neutrality itself.

Perhaps more importantly, this is subverting the legal/regulatory system by using your market dominance to essentially declare your own law. The system is failing us (those who support net neutrality, at least) right now, but it's there for a reason, and it's a slippery slope to try to reverse legislative and regulatory decisions by force.

Civil uprising is fine. Campaigns to raise awareness (like the blackout for SOPA), okay. Many other things are okay. But leave innocent people out of the crossfire. They should care, yes, but it's up to _us_ to make change---those of us who understand the issue and why it's important. It's up to us to raise awareness. I'm not going to go hold people hostage over my ideals. What if Google weren't on your side? What if they did _not_ support net neutrality? Would you be okay with them using their dominance to push an agenda you didn't like? I'd think not.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by reitanqild on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:30PM (#14755812)
Well, -just place an annoying ad that shows up for everyone including customers, employees and executives who use any google property:

"""You seem to be using <x> which is a lousy internet provider for reasons x, y and z.

Feel free to call them now at <phone number> or send a mail to <email> and let them know what you think.

Also here are other known providers in your area: <list>

You can also sign <here> and <here> to show your interest to other sane providers that are considering offering fiber in your area."""

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by notriddle on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:05PM (#14756143)
Didn't they already basically kill Internet Explorer this way?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by reitanqild on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:13PM (#14756211)
Yes. And they are trying to kill every other browser as well :-/

At this point I dislike chrome for exactly the same reasons I disliked IE: it is not good enough for me[0] and its sheer dominance makes web creators lazy and triggers bean counters to skimp on cross browser compatibility checks.

But this time they could actually use it for good.

[0]: yep. You would hear the same thing back then: You are the only one wanting to use another browser. Just get over it and use IE.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dingo_bat on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:07PM (#14758054)
Yes, I've been using edge. Every single Google page has a top bar bullshitting me about how awesome the page will look on Chrome. I dismiss the bar, it comes back in a day. On all Google websites.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by nawgszy on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#14756368)
>it is not good enough for me

Well, I am curious: what makes other browsers better for you? The other day I posed this question in a thread, and the main answer was "a good feeling inside".

Then the news that Mozilla forces you into being tracked by Google Analytics comes out, and that good feeling is gone, so what's your use case?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by cdubzzz on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:52PM (#14756566)
Here's one for ya - I can (and do) run my own account [0] and sync [1] server for Firefox.

[0] https://mozilla-services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run...

[1] https://mozilla-services.readthedocs.io/en/latest/howtos/run...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by reitanqild on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:15PM (#14756757)
Well, I am curious: what makes other browsers better for you?

Real extensions? Yeah I know they will be less useful than they used to be but still way better than anything else it seems.

The fact that it handles my browsing habits like a few hundred open tabs?

Oh, and by now using almost any other browser than chrome give me a happy feeling. The limit goes somewhere between Edge and IE it seems :-P

Then the news that Mozilla forces you into being tracked by Google Analytics comes out, and that good feeling is gone, so what's your use case?

I didn't see that and didn't find anything when I searched now. Do you have any pointers?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by cdubzzz on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:10PM (#14757115)
A bit of hyperbole, but here's the reference: https://github.com/mozilla/addons-frontend/issues/2785
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by thinkfurther on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:05PM (#14758434)
Wow. IMO it's not a "bit" of hyperbole to call that "Mozilla forces you into being tracked by Google Analytics".

Additionally, from the link "legal contract with Google" on that page:

> Mozilla went through a year long legal discussion with GA before we would ever implement it on our websites. GA had to provide how and what they stored and we would only sign a contract with them if they allowed Mozilla to opt-out of Google using the data for mining and 3rd parties.

> We now have two check boxes in our GA premium account that allows us to opt-out of additional usage of our data. Because Mozilla pushed Google so hard, those two check boxes are available to every other GA user in the world regardless if they have a premium account like we do.

When and where Mozilla caves to pressures they always stood against, I will not hold it against them more than against the ones putting them under pressure -- or against those trying to muddy the waters even more in these already trying times, for that matter.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dingo_bat on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:08PM (#14758059)
I like edge because it uses less ram and uses less battery. I can run my VM without swapping like crazy and my laptop lasts almost twice as long on battery.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by joseluisq on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:21AM (#14759142)
W3C Encrypted Media Extensions

Editors: David Dorwin, Google Inc.Jerry Smith, Microsoft CorporationMark Watson, Netflix Inc.Adrian Bateman, Microsoft Corporation (Until May 2014)

https://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/

So in this way we can save the net neutrality?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by gist on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:56PM (#14755431)
> Well, a simple statement saying "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products". No Google search, no YouTube, no Gmail

So you are suggesting that they harm their own business interests? For how long exactly?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by rpearl on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:09PM (#14757112)
Ah yes, Google should definitely punish end users because of what ISPs are trying to do.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jacksnipe on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:03PM (#14755530)
Now that Google (or rather, Alphabet) is also an ISP, wouldn't they get in a lot of trouble for this? Seems anti-competitive.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by elorant on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:06PM (#14755565)
So if you're a customer of said companies tied with a long-term contract you'd be caught in the middle and fucked up beyond recognition. How on earth would something like that make things better?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by quanticle on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:23PM (#14757835)
>Is this an insane idea?

It's not even that insane. MTV did exactly this to gain an edge when negotiating with cable companies. They ran ads telling people to call their cable companies and say, "I want my MTV!" The campaigns were largely successful, and MTV quickly became a standard offering on cable TV.

Google has far more negotiating power than MTV did. If Google actually cut off ISPs and told people to call their ISP and say, "I want my net neutrality!" it would have a good chance of working.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by agentgt on Thursday July 13, 2017 @08:30AM (#14760695)
I'm not against Net Neutrality but If Google were to do that it would be ironic, evil, and probably exacerbate the situation.

One of the arguments against Net Neutrality is it would help break up the Google marketing monopoly (yes this logic is shockingly what the cable companies have provided for the government as a pro).

In some sense Google is not much different than the cable companies except that the only entity that can out leverage the cable companies is the government that owns the poles and airways.

(If you don't think google is a monopoly or at least extremely unfair it is impossible to make a competitor to google as you would have to do your marketing of a such a product through them).

Frankly I'm already concerned that 99% of the marketing is controlled already by two entities: Google and Facebook. If google were to do what your proposing it would probably make far more people aware of the monopoly.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lostlogin on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:57PM (#14755449)
The problem with this is that the people who Google makes money from often aren't the biggest users, that would be blocking the users rather than the customers. I'm unsure if that matters, it would certainly be a massive wake up call to a lot of people.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by unityByFreedom on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:39PM (#14757610)
You can't turn off Google. You'd risk lives. People Google for "Poison control" and other emergency services.

They could change their banner, though, and I'm sad they aren't serious enough about this issue to do that.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by gremlinsinc on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:56PM (#14762908)
I personally think Google/FB/Reddit/etc should block users from ATT/Comcast/Verizon every monday as a sign of protest...

They should be redirected to a page saying - your ISP is against Net Neutrality. Contact them and tell them how you feel about this...or find a new ISP. Your access will be restored on Tuesday. If you don't like this, get used to it-it's the way a net neutrality-less internet works.

Those same ISP's will be begging to bring back net neutrality in a month or two.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by calafrax on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:06PM (#14757446)
I think Google should allow neutral public access to their 100,000 mile private fiber optic network.

That would really send a statement that they were serious about network neutrality.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by chiefofgxbxl on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:14PM (#14756223)
Also something to note: Google is not listed on the list of participants on the "battle for the net" web page. [0]

Is this a mistake? Am I missing something?

[0] https://www.battleforthenet.com/july12/#participants

Edit: I also checked for the parent company "Alphabet", which also is not listed.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by burntrelish1273 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:11AM (#14758879)
I think it's a minor omission, not a dodge to pacify handset makers or network carriers.

To be fair, Apple is pro-NN but not vocal about it.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by scierama on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:28PM (#14756858)
> "any ISP who abuses net neutrality will have their customers cut off from Google products"

> Is this an insane idea? Yep.

It sounds like we're in agreement on the latter, as for the former; the way it would play out is that Google Search, YouTube and Gmail would fade and successful competitors would replace them overnight.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by erwinkle on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:06PM (#14756678)
Wouldn't ISPs just whitelist google? How would google even check without causing false positives?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by tdb7893 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @02:58PM (#14755468)
Wouldn't that both be horrible for business and also run them into major anti-trust issues?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by adventured on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:43PM (#14755917)
It would instantly bring on the full power of the US Government, which can do almost anything it wants to to a corporation through dozens of nasty approaches. I'm shocked at the naivety in this thread after what we just witnessed with the NSA v tech companies.

Suddenly Google is facing a fine 10x larger than what the EU just threw at them (after all, look at the business % ratio regarding markets over the last decade, the majority of their business has been in the US), and a dozen agencies begin pursuing them on a variety of issues.

The government can do anything it wants to to Google at any time it wants to do it. They have enough methods, they can make Google's existence absolute hell.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ucaetano on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:18PM (#14756265)
> Make the site list competitors in the user's area that don't play stupid games.

Which competitors?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jak1192 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:27PM (#14758312)
Google Netflix Facebook etc. could stand to benefit by being able to afford faster speeds than younger smaller companies. The cost to compete is going to be higher, thus easier to maintain monopoly status.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lend000 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:04PM (#14756130)
No ISP is abusing net neutrality yet (to my knowledge), so they haven't had the opportunity. Also, as others have said, that worsens the problem and makes the Internet less neutral.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mattferderer on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:09PM (#14756703)
This explains net neutrality really well. https://www.cnet.com/news/comcast-vs-netflix-is-this-really-...

It discusses the use of faster lanes that only companies with money would have access to. At first this seems fair that companies should be able to purchase better technology to improve their speed. The question then becomes what happens to traffic on the slower lanes? I could argue this both ways. At the end of the day, the history of most ISP companies makes me not trust them.

Here's an article about Comcast trying to find loop holes https://www.wired.com/2015/11/comcast-may-have-found-a-major...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by minusSeven on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:16PM (#14756249)
>Google would probably lose money over it

I think that's why they won't.you are asking them to do something where they have a deep conflict of interest not to.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jameslk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:07PM (#14757094)
Wouldn't this basically be a form of economic tort? If so, I doubt Google would want to be on the receiving end of the legal consequences.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mouldysammich on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:20PM (#14757180)
If net neutrality was gutted, wouldnt they be allowed to do that? Is that not the same thing that the ISP is doing?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jameslk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:35PM (#14757253)
In the case of tortious interference, Google would be selectively attempting to interfere with the existing business relationship between the ISP and its customers by targeting specific ISPs it deems as violating what it considers as net neutrality.

Where as an ISP is unaware of any specific relationship and therefore isn't attempting to interfere.

IANAL but that's my interpretation of this specific tort law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference#Elements

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by dillweed on Thursday July 13, 2017 @05:53PM (#14765618)
I think I understand what you're saying but wanted to express admiration for the opening thesis.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by DaemonKrog on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:40PM (#14757297)
So, abuse net neutrality to punish customers of ISPs who abuse net neutrality.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mirekrusin on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:01PM (#14755508)
Yes, it would cost them a lot, billions probably, as it would be unconstitutional action. They would be forced to close the shop if they continued.

[edit]

It could however work if they throttle priority isp traffic to counterbalance.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by sloppycee on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @03:14PM (#14755651)
> unconstitutional

How? Google is a private individual/company; they can deny anyone service, so long as the reason is not discriminating against a protected class.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Nomentatus on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:36PM (#14756923)
or using their market power to extend a monopoly.