News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:35PM (#14756416)
Technically, the US President holds the power to end life on Earth should he so desire. To the best of my knowledge, there is no safeguard in place that could prevent such a course of action if it were attempted. Even Comcast's power seems rather pitiful in comparison.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:14PM (#14756748)
To the best of my knowledge, there is no safeguard in place that could prevent such a course of action if it were attempted

I can tell you for certain that there are dozens of safeguards. That scenario not only isn't possible, it's not plausible. Yes the President has the "codes" but those codes don't launch the missiles [1]. The scenario described is one in which there are literally nuclear warheads on a ballistic trajectory headed to the US with a verified source of origin.

I think the trope stays around because people, despite what they say publicly, like the idea of an emperor style president with supreme power.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-nuclear-wea...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by archgoon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:21PM (#14757525)
I'm afraid that you have misunderstood the Bloomberg article. Nothing in it is about checking the power of the president (it says itself the president determines when to end the meetings and whether to ignore advice). It is all about verifying that The President has issued the order, and then ensuring that order is carried out. The President is contacted in this scenario simply because he's the only one who can actually authorize retaliation. He is enabled to do that independently, which is what the nuclear football is for.

Alex Wellerstein is a academic researcher on the history of nuclear weapons, and he describes the situation thus:

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/11/18/the-president-and-...

"""

>>Are there any checks in place to keep the US President from starting a nuclear war?

What's amazing about this question, really, is how seriously it misunderstands the logic of the US command and control system. It gets it exactly backwards.

The entire point of the US command and control system is to guarantee that the President and _only_ the President is capable of authorizing nuclear war whenever he needs to. It is about enabling the President's power, not checking or restricting him.

"""

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:28PM (#14758128)
I was just describing the official process. Having spent 14 years in the military I can tell you that it's more complex than just that.

The entire point of the US command and control system is to guarantee that the President and only the President is capable of authorizing nuclear war whenever he needs to.

Yes, legally and formally. Informally though, as I said, it won't go down like that, especially if it's not completely unambiguous that there is a nuclear attack on the US.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by greggman on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @11:13PM (#14758463)
this is not my understanding. there is no such checking because in a real threat the president only has about 7 minutes until the enemies nukes fall from subs off the coast. to be a credible deterrent it has to be assumed he can order the launch in less time than that. if verification of unambiguous threat takes more time than that then the enemy can just nuke us confident we'll all be dead before our pres can get his military to accept the order

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-59-the-des...

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:33AM (#14758735)
I think you're technically correct, but those arguing with you (particularly those that have served in the armed forces) might cite this as a counterpoint, it takes a lot for it to make it all the way up the chain -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:05AM (#14760039)
who cares about launching on 7 minutes when nuke subs can strike anyway at any time even after the attack ?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:22AM (#14760107)
But who would you give command authority for that? Here in the UK, where we wouldn't even have 7 minutes in the event of an attack from Russia, we rely on exactly that strategy (possibly - the contents of the prime minister's "letters of last resort" to our submarine captains are secret and destroyed unopened when a PM leaves office) - but the flipside is that individual submarine captains have both the authority and the means to launch nuclear weapons without requiring approval from anywhere further up the chain.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:41AM (#14760176)
as far as i know if deep sea subs cannot contact the headquarters for x amount of time they should assume their country was nuked and are supposed to retaliate.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:48AM (#14760499)
That doesn't answer the question. Who do you give the command authority for that decision? Who gets to say "we cannot contact the headquarters", which amounts to being able to launch the nuclear weapons? And obviously if you want them to be able to launch under those circumstances you have to give them any "launch codes" or what-have-you beforehand.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:16PM (#14762554)
In the case of the UK, there is a sealed letter in each Trident sub with instructions from the PM in case the nation's leaders have been terminated.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by lmm on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#14762691)
Yeah, I mentioned the letters of last resort, but while the letter will contain orders, the captain has sole launch authority, and it's difficult to imagine the system could work in a way that avoids that - whatever process you require the captain to follow, they could simply decide to follow that process as though the leadership were uncontactable.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mjevans on Friday July 14, 2017 @04:48PM (#14773038)
I don't know what the actual procedure is; however like with Science Fiction and 'Self Destruct' codes I would think that a multi-agent auth challenge would be required.

The captain and some fixed number of executive officers. Possibly with redundancy for one or two crew being dead. The auth codes would cause a safe to unlock or message to de-crypt.

Presumably the instructions would be delivered to each authenticating member so that all could receive the orders simultaneously.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:20PM (#14762589)
Learning that there only is an "informal" system for nuclear strikes is fairly disconcerting and does not inspire confidence, especially if there are no added details and no available confirmation of what you told us.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by enraged_camel on Thursday July 13, 2017 @02:23AM (#14759150)
By the time it became completely unambiguous, it would be too late.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by chumali on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:05AM (#14760042)
From a game theory perspective the aim of the administration is going to be to make the threat of instant retaliation seem credible to any outside observer therefore preserving the effectiveness of nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

In practice however I'd certainly be surprised to learn that there were absolutely zero checks on the process as suggested in the article.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:01PM (#14757717)
The keywords here are "whenever he needs to".

Are there verified nuclear warheads on verified trajectories from verified origins?

Does the US President need to retaliated?

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by sooheon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:12PM (#14757776)
The problem is that nobody else's opinion matters. If the president wants to retaliate based on 0 evidence, they can.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by avar on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:31PM (#14756888)
Radiolab did an episode recently[1] which disagrees with that Bloomberg article.

They interview ex-Secretary of Defense William Perry asking him what controls there are, if any, on a crazy president just willy-nilly deciding to nuke something.

He says there's absolutely none, even if the president is in a room full of people who vehemently disagree with him he alone makes the call to launch.

1. http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:04PM (#14757731)
Yes yes, but...

The President can make the call to launch and everyone in the room can ignore him, arrest him, tape his mouth shut.

Or just shoot him.

Edit: fixed a word

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:34AM (#14760152)
Many people were morally opposed to nuking Japan in ww2 yet the president still went ahead and issued the order. Not sure what you expect from the military, they are formatted to follow orders.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:37AM (#14758755)
Yeah, you'd think that if nothing else, our current governmental situation proves that all expected norms should now be discarded. If this dipshit can act this way w/o recompense, there's no reason that the rest of the chain of command should follow orders...
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by throwaway7312 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @07:59AM (#14760551)
Nuttiness. This is the same President the MSM declared had "finally become President" after he bombed a Syrian air base following a (hoaxed?) chemical attack. Then got attacked endlessly by the MSM for not continuing to bomb Syria and for deescalating the military-industrial "WWIII with Russia so we can all make a lot of money" campaign.

There's an argument to be made for checks on presidential power to wage nuclear war at a pin drop. President Trump pulling us back from the joint establishment Democrat and establishment Republican push for worldwide nuclear armageddon is not it.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:24AM (#14758926)
It's pretty generous to assume that will happen. It might, but it's far from a certainty.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mr_spothawk on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:49PM (#14757001)
the Gov has a vested interest in other Govs believing that the president's button can do a thing. i'm not sure who to trust...

but I did learn the word "Verisimilitude" the other day.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:19PM (#14757174)
Ex secretary isn't really part of "The Gov" anymore.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by wwweston on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:39PM (#14757281)
The article you're citing appears to support the point it seems like you're trying to contradict -- it describes a system where the president is given explicit authority at every stage. There are opportunities for others to dissuade him, but he has every freedom to disregard them, and they have absolutely nothing in the way of legal power to stop him.

The only check currently seems to be people disobeying his orders, and even that is accounted for to some extent (see "mutiny is unlikely" in the article you cited).

It remains possible that ranking members of the executive branch and military might cooperate to make sure the president is isolated and unable to execute the protocol, and perhaps even conceivable (if unlikely) that enough of the military would refuse to participate. But that's the only real check, and it extralegal rather than any part of the system.

If you've ever been suspicious of "the deep state", think about that for a minute here, because it's really just another catchy term for the one of a half-handful of checks on the power under discussion here.

> I think the trope stays around because people, despite what they say publicly, like the idea of an emperor style president with supreme power.

I suspect that people really want to believe the system works, it can't be that messed up, someone else thought of this, some one else is paying attention, and they want things to be better, not worse, and they will take care of it for you.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by redy on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:02PM (#14757430)
Mutiny is likely. American officers in particular will tend not to follow orders to commit an obvious war crime. This isn't an extralegal check , it's very much legal.

But the system will fail if "the whole chain is stupid." This is why it's so dangerous to have a President obsessed with loyalty.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by astronautjones on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:40AM (#14758765)
Yes, and that's why we have so many obligatory legal oaths. It is kind of astonishing that Americans without the internet developed a pretty rigorous system so long ago - Joe Rogan (sorry) summarized it well when he said that smart people think they're smart, but they're actually just regurgitating things they've learned from truly genius people from past generations
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:27PM (#14762645)
What makes you think mutiny would be likely? It would depend on many factors such as the psychological makeup of the launch & command staff and the circumstances du jour. No doubt they made sure independent-minded soldiers likely to be unreliable were not placed anywhere near any silo.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by alexilliamson on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:31PM (#14756883)
I think the article you mention supports the opposing from the one you are defending: that article seems to be saying the ultimately the President can decide to ignore everyone else's judgement and launch anyway. Care to elaborate on the dozens of safeguards? Anything that could actually stop the Donald if he decided he'd had enough?

A recent radiolab episode (http://www.radiolab.org/story/nukes/) made a pretty convincing argument that any US president could on a whim destroy the world. It goes into the whole history of why that power was given to a civilian, and not the military.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by jtmb on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:05PM (#14757739)
It makes for good drama. Like House of Cards. Or Fallout. We enjoy thinking our way through doomsday scenarios.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by TylerH on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:02PM (#14756657)
Military personnel are obligated by US and international law to not comply with such an order. Generals have also gone on record when asked about the potential for such crazy orders, and said they would not follow such a command (like nuking Mecca, etc.)
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:43PM (#14756490)
True, something absolutely needs to be done about that. The only failsafe is a US soldier illegally disobeying orders. Actually, most soldiers that have a key would need to disobey orders, because it wouldn't take too many nukes to end life as we prefer it on earth.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by mattferderer on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:55PM (#14756599)
Hopefully the soldier is like Stanislav Petrov. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ben_jones on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:08PM (#14757099)
The world should have a national holiday in his honor. Possibly more deserved then any other human in history.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by schoen on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @10:24PM (#14758305)
A few people have observed it informally:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanislav+petrov+day

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by techdragon on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @09:15PM (#14758092)
I'm going to start celebrating these now. Holidays in honour of the two Russian officers who refused to start WW3
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @01:29AM (#14758939)
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by nothrabannosir on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:46PM (#14756523)
He would have to avoid triggering the 25th:

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

I.e. he must convince the Vice President et al. that ending all human life on Earth is a good idea.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @04:54PM (#14756589)
There would be no time. He literally has a phone on the desk that he can launch all the nukes in a few minutes notice, and NOBODY can stop him without illegally refusing to follow orders (hope to god they would obviously) but assuming everything works as designed the world would end.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by valuearb on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:36PM (#14757597)
For the US military its not illegal to refuse to follow an illegal order. The US Marines have this drilled into them, not sure about the other services.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:55PM (#14758001)
Sure, but you may have next to no information in that little amount of time to make the determination. For all you would know sitting at the terminal, that Russian/Chinese ICBMs were on their way. There was a Radiolab episode about this recently. It's tough to become one of the officers in this position and are heavily selected for those that would act unquestionably on orders. Any hint of questioning orders/superiors/the system gets you kicked out. This was done so that there would be no question in our rivals minds of our intent to follow through with the MAD doctrine.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ismarc on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:41PM (#14757934)
I can confirm it's drilled into Army soldiers as well, so I'd bet on the air force and navy being the same way.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by Bakary on Thursday July 13, 2017 @12:31PM (#14762685)
It's one thing to pledge to this, yet another to actually be in the silo with the alarms blaring and the the orders coming in with seconds to spare. It's impossible to predict in advance how someone would respond to this situation.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Thursday July 13, 2017 @06:39AM (#14760169)
How is an order from the chief of the military ever considered illegal?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by 7Z7 on Thursday July 13, 2017 @11:30AM (#14762108)
It worries me that this is a legitimate question. The chief of the military does not define law.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by ekianjo on Friday July 14, 2017 @10:30AM (#14770047)
Yes, but in the army you are told to obey its superiors and to follow the hierarchy. The top of the pyramid is the president. Who will challenge him?
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by briandear on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:22PM (#14756811)
Not exactly true. There is a two man rule to launch. On paper the president has the power, but there are extensive safeguards in place.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by bdamm on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @07:18PM (#14757509)
Not so. The nodes in the command chain have little if any ability to question the order they've been given. Officers are even selected based on their ability to carry out orders unthinkingly. In the US military, an order from POTUS is the ultimate command. The only part of the chain that matters is at the very top, specifically, the armed individuals who surround the President. They can choose to stage a coup or declare the President medically unfit.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by umanwizard on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:31PM (#14757877)
They have little authority to stop the order, which is not the same thing as saying they have no ability. In practice they are human beings and a Stanislav Petrov situation is totally possible.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by seiferteric on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:42PM (#14756958)
AFAIK the two man rule is to prevent a rogue soldier from launching, they have no authority to question orders from the president.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by willstrafach on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @05:32PM (#14756891)
They are not allowed to override POTUS.
Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by KGIII on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:29PM (#14757227)
I also wasn't allowed to smoke pot, while enlisted.

Which is to say, the orders may not be followed by the persons at the switch. I make no claim that they will, or will not, be followed. I merely point out that rules aren't always followed.

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by komali2 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:21PM (#14757186)
Correction: Overriding POTUS is illegal and has consequences that do not include the planet being nuked.

They absolutely have the real authority (ability) to refuse the order, and then the real authority to prevent the nuke from being launched (by eating their key, shooting anybody else that comes into the room, shooting the key/console, etc).

Re:Net Neutrality Day of Action: Help Preserve the Open Inte... by voxic11 on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:43PM (#14757315)
Though as I understand it each missile site has its own control and 2 man system. Even if only 1 out of 10 obeyed their orders and launched it would likely be the end of mankind or at least civilization as we recognize it.