News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Androider on Monday June 05, 2017 @03:59PM (#14491111)
If you click a search result and end up seeing something completely different than what you expected based on the search result snippet, it shouldn't matter if you're the WSJ or a scam site trying to hack your Google rank. It's deceiving the user and inflating your search ranking at the expense of more deserving listings.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by seanp2k2 on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:05PM (#14491199)
This. I installed the personal blacklist extension for Chrome just to blacklist Quora results because of this. I wish Google would actually punish them more. I click through on something which looks relevant, and the result is a useless login screen. LinkedIn is the same.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by pkkm on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:08PM (#14491260)
You can bypass the Quora login screen by appending ?share=1 to the URL. There's also an userscript which does this automatically: https://github.com/sindresorhus/quora-unblocker-userscript
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by devrandomguy on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:46PM (#14491814)
If you change your browser's UserAgent string to Googlebot, then your client will be treated as a first-class citizen, by many of these sites. Google always wins, so let's all be Google.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Xeoncross on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:58PM (#14491964)
Works great until you stumble on one of the big sites who will auto-ban you for not having a valid Google IP address.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Spivak on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:55PM (#14492551)
* Reverse DNS records. Webmasters shouldn't be verifying Google's bots by hard coding IP addresses.

https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/80553?hl=en

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by imron on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:49PM (#14492998)
Shouldn't != never happens
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dredmorbius on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:51PM (#14493012)
CIDR blocks and ASN advertisments are cheap.

Update those periodically (hours / days / weeks). The adverts don't change particularly quickly.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dmn001 on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:58PM (#14492588)
It's extremely rare to be ip-blocked by any website just for using the Google's user agent from a non-specific range. IP's get re-used and you can switch to a new one easily, so it's really not common or good practice for this to happen.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by kbenson on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:32PM (#14494025)
> IP's get re-used and you can switch to a new one easily, so it's really not common or good practice for this to happen.

On the flip side, some people can't change their IP addresses easily, and getting IP banned (even if rare because of the reasons you stated) is actually a major hassle when it actually happens for those people. :/

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by devrandomguy on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:07PM (#14492060)
Is that really a thing? That must be such a hazard for their developers. I usually have a test for sites that I work on, that scrapes a few URLs as Googlebot, to verify that they are getting an optimized view (no JS, structural-only css).
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Normal_gaussian on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:34PM (#14492328)
God. That's the reason so many sites look great in the results and are confusing interactive messes when I get into them.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by devrandomguy on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:37PM (#14492363)
If it's any consolation, the site is well tested in Noscript mode.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by SomeCallMeTim on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:01PM (#14492605)
You sir are a god among Web developers.

If only they all did this. So many sites I get to and they're a blank page or an absolute disaster....

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by ChuckMcM on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:36PM (#14492349)
Yes. Googlebot only crawls from legit addresses (even when their developers are trying new things) so it's an easy scraper/scammer signal to key off of.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dmn001 on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:03PM (#14492623)
No. Most websites don't do this.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by ipsum2 on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:22PM (#14492226)
I just tried this, doesn't work on WSJ. Tried the user agents listed here: https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/1061943?hl=en
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by bduerst on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:36PM (#14492348)
Isn't that what the entire article is about? That WSJ no longer gives access to Google users (and bots)?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mirimir on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:43PM (#14493385)
No. It allows Google bots to see full articles, but shows only the first paragraph or so to non-subscribers. Even if they're coming from Google search results.

However, I don't see cache links on Google :(

Edit: Oops, I'm wrong. The article does say that the Google bot only sees the first paragraph or so.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Jimmie_Rustle on Monday June 05, 2017 @08:01PM (#14493512)
No. You're wrong, as it states in the article:

"The reason: Google search results are based on an algorithm that scans the internet for free content. After the Journal’s free articles went behind a paywall, Google’s bot only saw the first few paragraphs and started ranking them lower, limiting the Journal’s viewership."

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mirimir on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:31PM (#14494024)
Yes, you're right. I got confused by all the discussion about Google checking for cloaking by comparing results using different user agents.

So maybe this is why there's no Google cache.

Also, if Google can only index the first few paragraphs, the results are much less comprehensive.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by __jal on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:18PM (#14492185)
Or just turn off Javascript. Makes lots of sites better.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by cynwoody on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @01:31AM (#14494976)
I call that enacting the nuclear option. It's almost guaranteed to win the war with ad-tech! It should be enacted for sites with run-away ad engines that spin up your CPU fans and make scrolling laggy.

Of course, the problem with nuclear is collateral damage. Drop the bomb and ads don't work, but neither does a lot of other stuff. E.g., the site shows a blank screen, images are invisible or blurry, drop-down menus don't drop. And, of course, the deal-breaker: videos don't play.

The remedy for killing JavaScript is more JavaScript (and CSS). But supplied inside a Chrome extension targeted at the offending site. An injected stylesheet makes `<body>` visible again, hides assorted useless junk, and styles injected UI elements. Your content scripts load the missing images, drop the menus down, and play the unplayable videos in button-activated pop-over windows displayed at superior resolution.

Of course, the problem is, there are a lot of sites out there, and they change unpredictably, requiring your extension library to change in response. That argues for crowd-sourcing the extension library, but the crowd needs to be proficient in HTML, JavaScript, and CSS and know the ins and outs of browser extensions and care and have time.

You can completely change how a site presents. E.g., change a slide-show in a static slide window that barely moves due to the background ad-tech load changes into a set of `divs` that roll upwards as your finger swipes.

It's a hobby at best. Disabling ad-tech components by origin is the practical option.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by __jal on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @05:11PM (#14501380)
Call me Dr. Strangelove, then. I usually browse with JS off, enabling it on occasion. And there are some whitelisted sites.

I used to play around with filtering sites to make them less antisocial, but find that slog less entertaining these days. So now when confronted with a site that's useless without JS, eh, there's almost always another site out there that doesn't mind the terms I demand for my attention.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by kevmo on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:30PM (#14491590)
Ah, I made a similar (but simpler) one years ago: https://github.com/kevmo/greasemonkey/blob/master/quora_upvo...
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by amelius on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:27PM (#14491559)
Pinterest too.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by derekp7 on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:57PM (#14491954)
The worst thing about Pinterest results, is they aren't primary sites -- I'd rather get a link back to the source page the image came from.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jquery on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:42PM (#14492945)
You could always use Pinterest directly if that's what you want.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by et-al on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:47PM (#14492986)
Do you need an account to actually make Pinterest useful?

Sometimes I do a Google Image search because I found something interesting, but don't know what it is, so I'm hoping of going to a page that describes what I was looking at. Pinterest shows up as a result, but with no backstory nor does it lead me back to a source, so it's worthless as a search result. It'd the ExpertsExchange of image searches.

Endy's advice of using `-inurl:pinterest` seems invaluable and I'll be adding that for all image searches in the future.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jquery on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:05PM (#14493107)
You can use Pinterest directly without signing up - https://www.pinterest.com/search/
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by nyolfen on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:14PM (#14492131)
pinterest has ruined image search results, it's infuriating
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by pkamb on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:51PM (#14492507)
Would kill for a Google Image Search extension that forwards my browser to the original source page rather than the Pinterest landing page. Any recommendations?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Papirola on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:00PM (#14492603)
would you pay for it?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by pkamb on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:39PM (#14492917)
One-time payment of a few bucks, sure.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by anodari on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:01PM (#14491997)
Agree. Pinterest search results is spam.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Endy on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:52PM (#14492512)
You know, even in image searches "-inurl:pinterest" works pretty well.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dawnerd on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:40PM (#14491740)
Google images feel like it's nothing but Pinterest now.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by shostack on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:20PM (#14492197)
Frankly I'd love Google to turn Google Images into much more of a true Pinterest competitor. Image search volume is pretty large, and they are already testing monetizing it. Now they just need to add in features that let you store and organize that information (and build a better profile of you in the process while also crowdsourcing tagging).

Pinterest needs more competition.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jquery on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:39PM (#14492925)
> X needs more competition.

In the context of Google being the alternative, this is sad and funny at the same time.

Hacker News in the abstract: The web needs more decentralization.

Hacker News IRL: Let Google own every vertical.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by shostack on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:25PM (#14493244)
I certainly recognize the irony of suggesting that Google might help improve competition.

That said, there aren't many players in a position to provide actual competition to Pinterest like Google can. The obvious concern is where you draw the line at anti-competitive if Google tried to do the equivalent of what they did with Yelp ratings.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jlarocco on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:46PM (#14492975)
If they did that I would switch to Bing's image search immediately. Definitely not what I want when I'm searching for an image.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by sverige on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:20PM (#14492768)
Bing is a lot better than Google for searching images. It also has better tools built in to the results page (similar images, different sizes, multiple source pages).
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mistermann on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:27PM (#14492819)
Could you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE link to this extension so I can install it to, I used to have one but lost it and couldn't find one that worked last time I checked. (Would love one for both Chrome and FF if it isn't cross platform).

Would also love to have one that rewrites URL's in search results to avoid the frequent 5 second pause when Google's redirector gets it's head stuck up its ass or whatever the problem is.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by arkitaip on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:28PM (#14494012)
Personal Blocklist by Google https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/personal-blocklist...

Note that it doesn't block some spam domains that sneakily use certain special characters i their domain names. Unfortunately Google hasn't fixed this issue for forever.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mistermann on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:48AM (#14494807)
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by senorjazz on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:09PM (#14492082)
Have never signed up to quora and I don't get these nag screens :-s
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by hoschicz on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:27PM (#14492271)
What's your problem with Quora? They provide great answers most of their time and their digests are very inspiring.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by kbos87 on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:33PM (#14492319)
Quora is one of the biggest offenders of growth tactics at the cost of user experience. They make it so easy to create an account without intending to that I probably have 15 of them.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by trendia on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:28PM (#14492279)
The Google search result looks like you'll see the content when you open the link, but instead you have to login first. OP doesn't want to login.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Jedd on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:32PM (#14492865)
This 2013 article sums up nicely why quora is frustrating to be directed to while seeking enlightenment, and as others have pointed out they use some unpleasant anti-patterns to lure in (potential) users.

http://jesuschristsiliconvalley-blog.tumblr.com/post/4896203...

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by abandonliberty on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:15PM (#14492735)
You're right, this is wrong in our current paradigm. But our current paradigm is wrong, too.

I want a world that supports business models other than web advertising. It negatively impacts journalistic integrity and freedom while further exacerbating the race to the bottom search engines and other content aggregators create.

WSJ is responding poorly to a bad situation. I suspect it'll cost them.

http://brave.com/ is one approach.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by scott_karana on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:51PM (#14493451)
Out of curiosity, do you think journalistic integrity was also impacted when newspapers used traditional paper advertisements as their source of revenue?

Eg, have newspapers _ever_ had integrity, and if they _did_, what's different?

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by chii on Monday June 05, 2017 @08:02PM (#14493517)
The papers lost classified ads. They were a large revenue source which did not dictate an agenda.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @02:56AM (#14495302)
> Eg, have newspapers _ever_ had integrity, and if they _did_, what's different?

They did somewhat before the massive corporate consolidation starting in, IIRC, the late 1970s when newsrooms started getting axes and the major dailies progressively became skins over wire services and lightly-rewritten press releases.

The internet often gets the blame, but it providing actual competition was decades after the terminal quality and subscribership decline of American newspapers began.

It actually was the internet competition (both wire services being directly available to readers and the loss of advertising) that actually got some of them talking about building up newsrooms, rebooting investigative journalism, and relying more on subscription income (paid subscription was never paying the bills before, it was pursued as a key metric advertisers used in determining how much it was worth to advertise in a paper.)

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by abandonliberty on Wednesday June 07, 2017 @10:58AM (#14506955)
That's a very interesting thing to try to quantify. I would say they had _more_ integrity, but risks always existed. Reuters used to have a corporate structure that would prevent it from capture, and even that didn't guarantee impartiality.

Multiple revenue streams (sales, classifieds) would make them less beholden to advertisers.

Of course they would still have to write material that sold!

I don't like to use John Oliver as a source, but there's some decent content in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq2_wSsDwkQ

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by pgwhalen on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:16PM (#14492744)
I'm totally with you, but what would you propose as a pragmatic solution? I really can't think of anything myself.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daxfohl on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:22PM (#14492227)
This actually sounds like a really interesting/profitable problem to solve. I'm sure there are tons of sites that want to be pay sites, but also want articles to show up in google search results. But users don't want to get inaccessible results. Google (or whomever) needs some solution to handle non-free results intelligently. Allow users to filter out non-free results, to configure which journals they do have subscriptions to, etc. Even an easy way to make micropayments.

If Steve Jobs was still alive, I'd bet Apple would be working on a competing search engine with some of these features.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Nition on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:09PM (#14493138)
I agree. Advertising is not a great business model on its own, particularly with the proliferation of adblockers. If there was a way to get people supporting more paid content then IMO the quality of content could also improve. But who knows how all this will go in the end. There's always been a lot of high quality free content on the Internet as well, just because people are willing to share their knowledge with each other.

krschultz's comment is really relevant as well.[1] In a complete system, search should actually know about what you subscribe to already, and not penalise those results for you.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14492870

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mirimir on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:40PM (#14494054)
> search should actually know about what you subscribe to already

I don't want search services to know what I subscribe to. That's private information.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daxfohl on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:34AM (#14494769)
Again, Steve Jobs. Under Steve Jobs, I think Apple would figure out a way to make the user experience terrific, without the end game of "Apple hordes every piece of your existence" like Google.

Steve Jobs reinvented PCs, reinvented mobile. I think "the next Steve Jobs" could do the same thing for search. I'm less and less certain of Google's monopoly on that space going forward. It's still built around Web 1.0 tech, has hacks into Web 2.0, but there's a Web 3.0 it's not ready for.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by yomly on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:55PM (#14492553)
That is a step that tends towards a walled-in closed Internet...
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daxfohl on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:52AM (#14494822)
It's probably inevitable. TV was free airwaves for so long. Now it's cable subscriptions. (And there's still advertising). Internet is already controlled by your ISP, so I have a hard time seeing that being "open" for much longer. Browsers, content providers, etc will all be regulated / commercialized / sandboxed.

Free zero-revenue startup idea: there'll be an IP-over-ham-radio or something to preserve "internet classic". (Largest use will be bitcoin-for-pornography).

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by m-j-fox on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:46PM (#14493404)
I wish I could just subscribe to news like I subscribe to Hulu. I'd happily pay $15/month ($22 ad-free) and then the papers I get access to can figure a fair way to divy it up.

There's got to be a startup idea in there somewhere.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mirimir on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:50PM (#14494087)
I'd happily pay, but not a flat fee. I'd maintain an account with some third party, with ~$50 balance. Browsing ad-driven sites, the agent would bid whatever it took to get all ad slots, with a limit of $0.10 or whatever. Over that, I'd get a quote, and could accept or decline. Browsing paywalled sites, I'd just get the quote.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by AznHisoka on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:30PM (#14493287)
So the company that needs this is google? I doubt they care whether WSJ paywall results are missing or not. Content in many industries is a commodity and plentiful
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daxfohl on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:56AM (#14494837)
If the future involves a domino effect where major content providers start falling WSJ's lead, then yes, it's an indication that the current model isn't working and Google needs to either evolve or be replaced.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by AznHisoka on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @06:43AM (#14496200)
thats a big if. of course if that happens then yes you are right but its not likely at all.

put this in perspective: there are millions of sites out there. theres just 1 major search engine. Yeah I think i know who has leverage here.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by eropple on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:04PM (#14491179)
Yup. We used to call it "cloaking", I don't know if that's still a term in use in the SEO world.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by tyingq on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:27PM (#14491543)
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by artursapek on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:55PM (#14491933)
They are known to crawl using human-like user agents instead of the typical Googlebot one precisely to counter this (weak) effort at playing the system. I'm surprised WSJ is surprised by the outcome here.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by x0x0 on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:35PM (#14492337)
They're in no way surprised; they're trying to marshal public outrage or lean on anti-trust efforts in order to force google to rank them higher.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by mistermann on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:28PM (#14492832)
I wish google would give us somewhere to report sites that are doing this.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by tyingq on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:01PM (#14493084)
It's here: https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreportform?hl=en

It specifically mentions cloaking.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daddyo on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:05PM (#14493103)
https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreportform?hl=en

> Webspam pages try to get better placement in Google's search results by using various tricks such as hidden text, doorway pages, cloaking, or sneaky redirects. These techniques attempt to compromise the quality of our results and degrade the search experience for everyone.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by sogen on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @12:39AM (#14494783)
According to this Facebook should rank very low.

Facebook doesn't even need Google, their users just visit the site directly.

I guess Mark zuckerberg doesn't lose sleep over this.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by daddyo on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @06:25PM (#14501985)
Google does not penalize Facebook for web spam. Facebook, to my knowledge, does not do:

- hidden text,

- doorway pages,

- cloaking, or

- sneaky redirects

They just show a big popover nagging you to log-in. But you can click this away.

If certain Facebook content pages rank low, or do not rank at all, it is because Facebook actively blocks Googlebot from accessing the content, not because Facebook is trying to deceive Google (or the user).

Though Facebook does not need Google, it could get quite a lot more visitors if it lowered the wall of its garden a bit. As is, Facebook is an inaccessible social echo chamber, and I don't lose any sleep over this.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by krschultz on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:33PM (#14492870)
But many Google users do see the content. I wish Google knew that I paid for subscriptions to WaPo, WSJ, & NYT and ranked things accordingly. I never want to open an ad supported story when the same thing is covered by a publisher I subscribe to.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by jcranberry on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:13PM (#14493160)
I think it's not far fetched to imagine someone with a paid subscription is subscribing to use it habitually as opposed to just having access whenever they clicked on a link via google.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by krschultz on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:53PM (#14494102)
Right but lets say I search for an old topic (not current news). It won't be on the home page of the WSJ, NYTimes, or WaPo. But I'd like Google to surface that for me since I'm a subscriber and pay to have access to journalism like that.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by downandout on Monday June 05, 2017 @08:01PM (#14493507)
100% agree. I've actually reported WSJ to Google several times for cloaking (that's what Google calls this bait-and-switch). The penalty for this is supposed to be deindexing of the entire site from all Google results, but apparently WSJ gets a pass on that. At least they're being punished to some degree.

For the record, if anybody needs a draggable WSJ paywall bypass bookmarklet, I put one up here:

http://salzeko.com/wsj/

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by eveningcoffee on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:44PM (#14492959)
WSJ can in principle counter it by offering a summary for the unregistered logins (and bots).
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by sgustard on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:10PM (#14492093)
If Google doesn't differentiate between "the WSJ or a scam site", its value to me is severely curtailed.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dragonwriter on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:21PM (#14492218)
Since WSJ objectively is a scam site in the relevant dimension, offering different cotbent to Googlebot than to search users, it absolutely should be treated exactly like other scam sites.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by krschultz on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:34PM (#14492877)
Different content to some search users. All WSJ subscribers see the same thing as the Googlebot.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dragonwriter on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:43PM (#14493387)
> Different content to some search users. All WSJ subscribers see the same thing as the Googlebot.

WSJ subscribers, online and print combined, are in the low single digit millions. Google search monthly unique users are about three orders of magnitude greater. WSJ online subscribers are close enough to 0% of Google's users as to make no difference.

So, that "some" is essentially all.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by buxtehude on Monday June 05, 2017 @09:46PM (#14494075)
The vast majority of google searches are certainly not all searching for things that would lead them to WSJ.

If we take just the population of the US in 2017 (326.5M), and assume every American searches via Google for their news, we're looking at give or take 1% of the US with the WSJ subscriber estimate you provided (~3M).

We can refine these numbers further...

19.4% of the US population is less than or equal to 14 years of age (18 would be better, but couldn't find) - so that gives 263M potential American news readers

The Pew Research Center http://www.journalism.org/2016/07/07/pathways-to-news/ states that about 38% of adults in 2016 often get news online (~99M)

That leads to at least 3% of US Google news searchers are potential WSJ subscribers.

So that's not a tiny number (yes the number could be adjusted for worldwide English speaking news googlers - but I think I've made my point).

How many of these subscribers are wealthy and coveted by advertisers?

What if more news publishers follow WSJ and you happen to be a subscriber of that content?

With the amount of information that Google has on its users, I don't see why it can't adjust search results based on whether or not you subscribe - and bring value to whichever side of the paywall you reside on.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by rblatz on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:18PM (#14492181)
Then the WSJ shouldn't cloak content like a scam site.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by bachmeier on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:07PM (#14492663)
They're making Google's search engine less valuable in order to get free advertising. From Google's perspective, how are they not a scam site?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Whitestrake on Monday June 05, 2017 @08:31PM (#14493708)
It can be both the WSJ and a scam site at the same time.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by amenod on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:51PM (#14491877)
I think this is not what WSJ is after. I think they are trying to pressure Google to find a more suitable policy (suitable to WSJ) by putting Google users behind paywall while allowing free visits from social media. They are probably laying the groundwork for future battles, sorry, I meant talks.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by Bartweiss on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @10:55AM (#14497674)
Agreed.

There's an interesting difference between overlay paywalls like Wired uses, and content-not-loaded walls like WSJ uses. In the Wired case, they text is sent to you but they try to stop you from reading it. In the WSJ case, they don't even send you the text of the page you supposedly clicked on.

Since we're in the second case, this isn't even a decision by Google. The WSJ actually isn't sending you the data in the search result snippet, so the crawler rightly says "wow, nothing useful here". The complex, ideal solution might let me tell Google "search as though I'm a WSJ member", but short of that they're accurately assessing what content is actually available.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by seshagiric on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:56PM (#14491942)
Why can't WSJ provide full indexing access to Google crawler robot but keep it paid for users? That way at least the scam problem will be solved?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by CobrastanJorji on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:01PM (#14491999)
They'd probably be happy to do that, but my understanding is that Google generally frowns strongly upon sites that display different content (or no content) to users when they tell Google those pages have content.

I could imagine Google adding some sort of "content is locked behind a paywall" indicator on search results, but if I'm searching for something on the web, a link to blocked content is not very helpful most of the time.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by yomly on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:57PM (#14492569)
Yep - imagine a world where most the top search results are subscription only. That's a terrible UX for a Google searcher to have to go past page 1 to actually have content. Google definitely doesn't want that, and its also anti-open web
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by dqv on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:15PM (#14492734)
I actually would find it useful if Google had an indicator like 3 pay-walled results omitted, show them?

At least being able to know it exists can help consumers decide if they should pay for an article/subscription.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by tripzilch on Tuesday June 06, 2017 @07:33AM (#14496437)
if Google is going to accommodate pay-walled results like that, you can expect this indicator won't just show/hide 3 high quality pay-walled results, but also 30 shitty ones that will want to get in on the potential pay-wall business.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by sqeaky on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:51PM (#14493020)
Google could charge paywalled sites to make such a feature, but as a user I never want to see that.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by bachmeier on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:10PM (#14492688)
> a link to blocked content is not very helpful most of the time

That's called advertising, but the WSJ will have to buy ads like everyone else.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by draw_down on Monday June 05, 2017 @06:33PM (#14492872)
Why would Google know who is and who isn't a WSJ subscriber? Would WSJ subscribers want Google to know that information?
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by siliconc0w on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:55PM (#14491930)
+1, this is already pretty bad for a lot of searches with so many sites erecting paywalls, pushing required logins, or anti-ad-block.

Not sure if they track this but whatever the Googlebot's view of the site's content, if it's constantly bouncing users back to the search page it should get hit with a hard penalty.

Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by danso on Monday June 05, 2017 @04:08PM (#14491246)
My thoughts exactly. If WSJ wants to increase monetization through paywalls, it has every right to do so, but should suffer in SERP accordingly as a paywalled-article is generally not what users are looking for.
Re:WSJ Ends Google Users' Free Ride, Then Fades in Search Re... by rhino369 on Monday June 05, 2017 @07:25PM (#14493250)
It isn't necessarily deceiving. In many situations, I'd rather know where the information is rather than Google pretend it doesn't exist.

For example, Google scholar will search papers that are behind a paywall. By blocking them, I wouldn't even know what to purchase.

This is google foisting their business model down our throats.