News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by DamnInteresting on Thursday May 18, 2017 @04:51PM (#14370985)
A few weeks ago I bought a Chevy Bolt EV...according to the dealer it was the first one sold in my state (Utah). I'd been on a waiting list for almost a year.

Sure, ICE engines are getting better, but EVs are rapidly gaining and will soon surpass. The Bolt is a bit expensive for a car of its body type, but "gassing up" at home is amazing, the 200+ mile range is great, and the sharply reduced emissions are a weight off the mind. It's also super quiet, as you would expect, and boy howdy does it have get-up-and-go. Sure, some of it is psychological because a) it's whisper quiet as it accelerates; b) the raft of batteries in the belly keeps that car planted to the road; and c) there's no pause to down-shift. But I've owned some fast cars[1], and this one feels like the fastest yet.

It's nice that ICE engines are improving, but between the Bolt, Tesla Model 3, and other soon-to-arrive practical EVs, I believe that the sunset of ICE is beginning.

[1] Notable examples in order of speediness: 1973 Dodge Charger (340ci), 1970 Dodge Challenger (383ci), 1996 Camaro Z28 (350ci), 2000 Camaro SS (350ci).

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Someone1234 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:25PM (#14371591)
Electric vehicles are a tough sell now though. The Chevy Bolt EV has a 60 kWh Lithium-ion battery; to charge that fully costs $8.7 in Utah (14.5 cents per kWh). Per the EPA's measure that gets you 238 miles.

Gas costs approx $2.24/gallon in Utah. A Prius has a 11.3 gallon tank and a 540 miles range (again, EPA standard). That means that $11.15 would get you the same distance as a full Bolt EV charge in gas.

Now, before electric vehicle fans jump for joy at the $2.45 saving per 238 miles, we also have to account for the cost of the two vehicles. The Bolt EV costs $36,620, the Prius $23,475.

Therefore for the Bolt EV to make economic sense you have to drive 1,276,942 miles. Or fuel has to get much more expensive, or electricity much cheaper. Regardless, the economics don't add up at all when compared with hybrid gas vehicles.

Yes, I know, lower maintenance, but not $13K lower. And before you talk to me about the cost of driving to and from a gas station, let me remind you about battery loss due to cold temperatures (this is Utah we're talking about, after all).

In general people buying electric vehicles in 2017 are buying them for non-economic reasons. They lose money. Hybrids are likely the best bang for your buck, and may remain that way even after Tesla ship their $36K competitor (since no other major metric in the equation changes, electricity is still very expensive, and gas very cheap).

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by DamnInteresting on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:07PM (#14371797)
Economics is only a single factor though. Part of the decision for me was that zippy-peppy driving, it's mad fun. I haven't driven a Prius, but I don't get the impression it's so much fun to operate.

Also, I hate stopping at gas stations, not just for the monetary cost, but for the time and general annoyance. Now I just plug in every night, my car is always ready to go. I'm never rushing off to an appointment only to realize that my tank is nearly empty, which will make me late. And I never have to change the oil.

And now I can make my weekly ~140 mile round trips without feeling so much polluter's guilt. Sure, it's a drop in the bucket, but a full bucket is full of drops.

Did you take into account that these cars can be programmed to wait until nighttime to start charging, when rates are lowest?

Anyway, sure, economics is a big factor that will slow adoption, but it won't halt it.

Edit to add: Plus I get $9,000 in total tax rebates. Tasty.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by MertsA on Friday May 19, 2017 @05:03AM (#14373924)
> And I never have to change the oil.

Well yeah, you kind of do need to change the oil if you don't want the gearbox to die an early death. There's also still coolant that needs to be changed regularly as well. EVs have significantly less maintenance, but there's still critical maintenance that must be done on time if you don't want to damage your car.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by LeifCarrotson on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:58AM (#14375116)
What are you talking about? Here's the official maintenance interval for the Bolt:

http://i.imgur.com/gU4FfdY.png

It calls for tire rotations every 7,500 miles - not a lot you can do about that, and I suspect tire wear will be worse in a torque-happy EV. Skipping them will only reduce your traction, which I suppose could damage you and your car. And of course you have "required services" like brake pads when those wear out and start to squeal; probably less common due to regenerative braking from the electric motor: Engine braking is a habit that takes work with an ICE, but it's the norm in an EV. And you might want to change the cabin air filter when it gets dusty - not that my vehicles haven't gone...a long time...without cabin air filter changes. Skipping them won't damage your car, just your nose. But fluid flushes? Hardly necessary.

Coolant only needs to be changed at 150,000 miles - hardly "regularly". Most ICE cars don't need changes at less than 100,000 mile intervals. In an EV like the Bolt, coolant deals with a lot less heat than an ICE and doesn't suffer microscopic contamination from hot exhaust gasses and oil.

And the Bolt doesn't have a transmission; it's direct drive. Gearboxes (I assume you mean manual transmissions?) typically take synthetic gear lube now with recommended intervals of 200,000 to 300,000 miles. Differentials use the same stuff. I did elect to change the differential fluid in my Jeep at 250,000 miles - but those diffs are taking a lot more abuse than a typical car.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by MertsA on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:08PM (#14377023)
To be fair, I didn't know that the coolant in a Bolt is supposed to be good for 150,000 miles, that's a good bit longer than I figured. I was thinking closer to 90,000 miles, but you're right, the lower service temperature and also less metal surface area will make it last longer in an EV. But in an ICE, exhaust and oil should not be getting into the coolant at all. If it is, any long life coolant is going to need to be changed out immediately while your head gasket is replaced to fix the oil/exhaust leak. One of the major reasons why coolant has a service life is because of corrosion inhibitors present in it that get used up over time.

You're also right that brake pads are going to last longer, on an EV, they barely wear at all. However, there's the brake fluid that will wear out just as fast as on any car. Over time brake fluid picks up humidity, there's no easy way around this. It'll cause the car to potentially lose the brakes if ignored long enough or even rust out brake lines.

Then there's still every single suspension component that a traditional car has. Balljoints and tie rod ends are always going to wear. If you're lucky, your manufacturer might have chosen components with built in grease fittings so that with regular maintenance you can extend the lifespan of those components but that's the exception, not the rule. There's still bearings, shock absorbers, CV joints, motor mounts, and bushings on various things. Every one of those has a finite service life, just because Chevy doesn't list a recommended interval to replace them doesn't mean that they don't need to be inspected and replaced as they wear down.

As for the actual oil comment though, the Bolt isn't direct drive, it has a fixed ratio gearbox with a differential built in. It only has a couple of gears and the differential, but still, they're helical gears and they need the right viscosity oil. Over time, those gears are going to degrade the oil from the shear forces and add contaminants to it. Contaminants are also slowly going to seep in from the vent, you can't completely seal up a gearbox, you need to have a vent on it otherwise running it is going to push oil out of the seals around the axles. As for the recommended intervals you quoted, that's pretty unrealistics and most manufacturers aren't recommending crazy intervals like that.

Here's the maintenance schedule for a Honda: https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/SI9999/SI9999O00...

It doesn't have that high of a service interval but for something like a 2015 Honda Civic it's still just using their regular long life coolant which is supposed to be good for 5 years or 60,000 miles. Brake fluid is something that's pretty much always going to last around 3 to 5 years regardless of manufacturer. And manual transmissions typically have a much more reasonable recommended fluid life of somewhere around 90,000 to 120,000 miles. Some manufacturers are listing some transmissions as having "lifetime" fluid, but there's also identical transmissions with the same fluid in other vehicles where the recommendation is 90 to 120 thousand miles. There's no such thing as "lifetime fluid", every single fluid in any vehicle wears down in use and picks up contaminants, eventually every fluid will need to be replaced. Any manufacturer who tells you otherwise is lying to you.

Do you have a source for some of your claims? Honestly the recommended change interval of 200,000 to 300,000 is higher than I've ever seen and even on stuff like a 2015 VW Jetta you're supposed to change the manual transmission fluid every 40,000 miles. Here's the 2014 Jeep Wrangler service interval for the manual transmission and transfer case: http://www.wranglerforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=198...

250,000 miles is much too long for a differential, I'd imagine the drain plug was probably coated in metallic sludge right? I've seen a few drain plugs out of differentials and transmissions that were all treated way better and still be coated in what used to be the gears.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:19PM (#14383864)
I think you're confusing service interval items that are "check/verify" with "need to do". I'm almost positive you don't need to check or change anything that extensively on a manual transmission VW.

Also, we figured out a long time ago that sealed transmissions are okay, but it all boils down to how you drive the vehicle. Yeah, if you treat the car like shit, or you get the transmission checked (if this is even possible these days), if it's low then there's something wrong & you'll need to add fluid, or drain & fill. Otherwise? You don't touch it & it's fine. Volkswagens last a solid 200-300k miles before you actually need to do something major, but that's subjective.

Yes, there's all these wonderful suspension components, but I imagine with Tesla vehicles, those components are most likely heavier duty than a regular vehicle, given all the fucking obnoxious batteries. They also probably wear a lot differently & components will fail differently than they will & at different rates compared to a traditional ICE vehicle.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by MertsA on Monday May 22, 2017 @05:21PM (#14397034)
No the 40,000 miles really is for replacement. That being said it does sound pretty low and it is for their fancy dual clutch direct shift transmission. But sealed transmissions with "lifetime" fluid wear out faster than a decent transmission. There isn't some major transmission improvement that allows for a sealed transmission, it's just a regular transmission that you can't perform maintenance on.

As for whether or not it's strictly necessary, you can avoid oil changes altogether and a decent car will make it quite a long way before it seizes up.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/2zoc...

You can do the same with a transmission or a differential, but they'll last a lot longer if you replace the contaminated and worn out fluid with new fluid.

But even just checking the fluid level in a transmission or differential, if the fluid is low, you can't ever just refill it. It didn't burn up, you've got a leak and it'll probably just get worse if you ignore it. There are plenty of vehicles out there with absolutely ludicrous mileage on them, on a modern vehicle, if you keep on top of maintenance, engines and transmissions can last hundreds of thousands of miles.

As for suspension components on a Tesla though, I would expect to spend a decent bit keeping all of them in working order. The suspension on a Tesla is really nice, but air suspension isn't nearly as robust as a simpler Macpherson strut setup on an econobox. It's fancy, but fancy suspension and more moving parts means more things to wear out and fail. You've got 2x the ball joints to fail in the front, additional linkages all over, and more bushings to wear out.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Neliquat on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:48AM (#14375559)
My toyota has lifetime trans fluid, which smart owners change every 100k. Chevy iirc was the 1st to try this in the corvette transaxle. It makes maint a lot harder if you keep a car more than a decade. No fluids additives can last that long. You will just end up replacing whole components instead of servicing them.

And all ecars have at least a differential, and many have gearsets, even if they do not shift. These are mostly heilical/hypoid style gears. That fluid uses shear additives that need to be replenished to abate wear. If you have not changed your trans/diff fluid in over 100k, now is the time. Your jeep, having a solid axle, is tremendously more simple and overbuilt than a normal car too. Extrapolating from that is not accurate.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by cjrp on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:53AM (#14375089)
The coolant on a Bolt EV needs changing after 150k miles (http://imgur.com/7hF0Ijg). What gearbox?
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by MertsA on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:11PM (#14377050)
The Bolt is not direct drive, it has a single motor hooked to a fixed gear ratio final drive and a differential in it. It looks like Chevy doesn't actually provide a maintenance schedule for the oil in the gearbox but it's no different than any other gearbox, the oil will wear down from shearing and contamination will build up over time. 100,000 miles is probably a good service interval but Chevy doesn't bother to tell you how often you should change it.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by madengr on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:52AM (#14375085)
Coolant on my Nissan Leaf is 75k miles. Reduction gear oil is just inspect; it's a single gear. Brake fluid is the normal 30k miles.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by MertsA on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:30PM (#14377199)
>Reduction gear oil is just inspect; it's a single gear.

Well actually, a Nissan Leaf is going to have 8 gears in the reduction drive. 4 in the differential, 2 to couple the differential to an intermediate shaft, and another 2 to couple that shaft to the motor itself. That being said, ATF does wear out over time, those gears are going to be adding finely powdered metal to the fluid and even just the shearing forces on the fluid literally breaks down the oil chemically. It'll certainly last a whole lot longer than engine oil but eventually that inspection is going to necessitate a replacement.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by LeifCarrotson on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:19AM (#14375303)
Everyone buying new cars is buying them for non-economic reasons. The purchase price of any new vehicle is a tough sell.

If your primary concern is cost-per-mile, it's hard to beat an old $250 moped off Craigslist that gets 100+ mpg.

If you claim you need something more enclosed, an old truck for $2000 might be your answer. In that rustbucket, you're belching smoke into the atmosphere and burning a dollar of gas every 5 miles, but it will still get you more than 100,000 miles before you match the purchase price of the Prius. In those same 100,000 miles, the Prius has been burning gas as well (true, at a whopping 47 mpg) but this gas cost would be enough to buy you a replacement old truck (or, let's face it, a second old truck).

To be more serious, I bought my 2003 Toyota Matrix XRS with 150k miles for $3100, and have been getting about 30 mpg for the past 60,000 miles. Every purchase of a new vehicle - hybrid, electric, or gas - is done for non-economic reasons.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by ddingus on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:54AM (#14376877)
Right. I drove an old corolla many years for this reason. It got 40mpg, got it for a song. 500 in maintenance per year.

Cheap. One kid still has and drives that car. Approaching 400k miles now.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by maxsilver on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:19PM (#14372137)
> Electric vehicles are a tough sell now though. The Bolt EV costs $36,620, the Prius $23,475.

You could split the difference -- buy a Chevy Volt for $34,095 ($26,595 after Fed Tax Credit). Drive electric up to 50+ miles per charge, but still get 42mpg when driving on gasoline, with over 420 miles of total range per fueling.

> In general people buying electric vehicles in 2017 are buying them for non-economic reasons. They lose money. Hybrids are likely the best bang for your buck.

I'd argue plug-in hybrids are where the real sweet spot is.

It's only an extra $3k over the Prius, to get ~90% of your driving miles via zero-emission electricity, but still have full gasoline available for any long-distance trips. I think that's a really compelling argument. It's really easy to save more than just $3k on fuel alone, after a couple of years with that car.

Regular hybrids are cheaper up front, but are wasteful. They cheap out on tiny batteries that are way too weak to take full advantage of the vehicle's technology. Stick a wall-chargeable 10-20 kWh battery into a hybrid, and you get the best of everything in one vehicle.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by davexunit on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:27PM (#14372176)
Hybrids are cool, but now you have to maintain an electric and gasoline engine. I'm in the market for a new car and when comparing the prices of a new Chevy Volt vs. a new Chevy Bolt, it's not a huge price difference to go all electric and greatly reduce moving parts.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dangrossman on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:07PM (#14371788)
> The Bolt EV costs $36,620, the Prius $23,475.

The Chevy Bolt has a $7500 electric vehicle tax credit, many states have rebates of $1000 to $3000, and some utility companies offer their own rebates and incentives. That narrows the price difference quite a bit, and drops it well below the average new car selling price.

You're also not going to be producing gasoline at home, while a lot of people buying these expensive early electric vehicles are also early adopters of solar panels.

If you look at the $/kWh trend on lithium ion batteries (over 80% drop in 6 years), the most expensive part in these cars, it's only a matter of time before EVs cost no more than other types of vehicles without the government help.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by djrogers on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:44PM (#14371978)
> You're also not going to be producing gasoline at home, while a lot of people buying these expensive early electric vehicles are also early adopters of solar panels

I'm an electric car fan, but to be fair, unless your solar installation is proceeding more than you can use, and you don't have net-metering, then this is a false advantage here. Every KWh you use to charge your car is one you'll eventually have to buy from (or not sell to) the power company.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by UnoriginalGuy on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:59PM (#14372306)
> are also early adopters of solar panels.

Solar panels which are paid for themselves by sending money back to the grid. If you redirect it into your vehicle, then you've just transferred the cost from the power company to your solar panel loan.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by stouset on Friday May 19, 2017 @07:07PM (#14379996)
If you're out of the house during the day, you can sell those kWh to the grid at peak prices, then buy them back at night when they're cheap and you're home charging the EV.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by vvanders on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:32PM (#14371627)
You forgot oil changes in you calc. Also your $8.70 is only $4.19 in Washington :).

Costs are dropping on EVs and will continue to drop as economy of scale picks up. They may not make sense today but there's a good chance they will tomorrow.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darrylb42 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:24PM (#14371879)
Interesting. In Vancouver in CDN$ $5.15-$7.72 to charge and [email protected] per liter to fill up.

https://www.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/el...

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by vvanders on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:55PM (#14372284)
Yup, hydro is awesome for cheap renewable electricity.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dugditches on Thursday May 18, 2017 @09:21PM (#14372394)
Try to tell that to an Ontarian.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by randomdata on Friday May 19, 2017 @06:37AM (#14374314)
The hydroelectric generation is cheap in Ontario, but not overly abundant. The majority of the power in the province comes from much more costly nuclear sources.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by YZF on Thursday May 18, 2017 @09:30PM (#14372424)
And you get to go in the HOV lanes as well!
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Neliquat on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:50AM (#14375579)
Until they get popular.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mtgx on Friday May 19, 2017 @04:19AM (#14373748)
Maintenance costs are about 1/3 of ICE cars, too.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:09PM (#14371804)
>You forgot oil changes in you calc.

Are you, perhaps, being sarcastic with your comment?

Anyway, there are few countries (if any) on Earth where EVs make financial sense for an average person. Their time will come, but buying into it now is not investing – indeed, as the GP commented, you do it for altogether different reasons.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by cmrdporcupine on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:42PM (#14371967)
No, he's not being sarcastic. Are you? EVs don't require oil changes. Or muffler/exhaust service. Or transmission service. And their brakes last longer.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by chrismcb on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:12AM (#14373358)
Don't forget battery replacement... Our the environmentalist coast to build a battery
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by cmrdporcupine on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:22AM (#14374881)
A properly designed EV (Tesla and GM, not Nissan, Kia or VW) has a properly designed cooling and battery maintenance system, and shouldn't need battery replacement for a _long_ time.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by vvanders on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:54PM (#14372282)
Small nit: The cooling system still requires service, however it's only every 50k miles and runs about $800.

That said last time I broke down my per-mile costs new tires at $1k every 40k was my highest cost by far.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:55PM (#14372021)
Are you non-sarcastically implying that an oil change presents as a major expenditure in owning and using an ICE vehicle?

If so, I get it.. you don't own a car; which begs the question of why are we discussing this?

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by vvanders on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:23PM (#14372154)
Yup and if you want to make a true comparison find a 500hp car(that will probably run on premium, get ~25mpg and use synthetic oil). That's what our 85D is.

Did I break even? No, but with prices coming down it'll happen.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:41PM (#14372241)
>Did I break even?

Well down-vote me to make it up.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by vvanders on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:52PM (#14372271)
Here ya go then: http://teslapedia.org/model-s/tesla-driver/total-cost-of-own...

No, I didn't break even because I came from a '03 beater that I'd been driving for the last 15 years. The thing is, if no one buys EVs there won't be sustained demand. I don't mind spending a bit more on my end to make sure the industry moves forward(I believe they call that voting with your money).

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by eanzenberg on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:04PM (#14372060)
100,000 miles changing oil every 3,000 miles at $30 a pop is ~$1000 so yes, within consideration.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:23PM (#14372151)
>changing oil every 3,000 miles

What? I mean, what? Whatever you want, I guess.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by reportingsjr on Thursday May 18, 2017 @11:29PM (#14372827)
Multiple people where I work change the oil in their cars at this rate. I explained that you can go further with more modern oils, especially synthetic, to no avail. I think you'd be surprised at how much people spend on car maintenance.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by chrisseaton on Friday May 19, 2017 @07:31AM (#14374580)
In the UK people are told to change their oil once a year or 10k miles. If you do it every 3k miles in the US, which of us is doing it wrong? Either we're damaging our cars or you're wasting money and oil. They're the same cars doing the same distance, and parts of the US are similar climates.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by stupidhn on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:07AM (#14374794)
>Either we're damaging our cars or you're wasting money and oil.

The latter.

Most manufacturers recommend 10,000 miles now, some as high as 15,000 (Jaguar, known for being unreliable):

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/tips-advice/stop-changing-y...

Being as how manufacturers have to cover the warranty issues that could be related to lack of oil changes, I go with what they recommend.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by exprA on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:49AM (#14375070)
I guess I'm at the other end of spectrum by simply following what the manufacturer proposes: I change my oil along with the filter every 18,000 miles, and so far, after 100,000 miles (and then some) have not had any issues. (My car is rather cheap, or in EV sense practically free, so I'm not all too concerned, either.)

The engine does not consume too much oil, either, so a single 4L bottle – about a gallon I think – is easily all that the oil I need between changes. With European prices, that is the equivalent of a single refill (even with my modest tank size), which makes you simply laugh and wonder at all the people that (always) bring up oil changes in the discussion of ICE vs EV. I can't but wonder how many of those actually own and maintain a not-imaginary vehicle.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:25PM (#14383895)
What vehicle do you drive that you can get away with 18k mile oil changes? And are we discussing actual gas or that diesel crap?
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by exprA on Sunday May 21, 2017 @08:23AM (#14386959)
It's a VW Polo from the early noughties. Petrol, albeit a rather small engine to match the car :)

To clarify my earlier post, I meant of course that a single bottle of oil is enough for the refill (between 3 and 4 litres) and more than enough for any top-ups for the about 30000 km before the car starts to remind of the end of the “Long Life” maintenance cycle. Oil is certainly not up there when it comes to costs of owning a small car, ICE or not.

A cursory look at used oil: it's still rather like the stuff that goes in, albeit black, of course. Without specific tools, I think it's impossible to tell it apart from oil that's used for, say, 10000 km.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by wayn3 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:50PM (#14384036)
thats a pretty standard recommendation from practically all german car manufacturers - to change oil roughly every 30-35k kilometers - which is about 18k miles.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Sunday May 21, 2017 @12:34AM (#14385710)
I've never seen that anywhere in the United States. 10k miles is the highest I've seen for BMWs & if it isn't that, people say the typical advice is "once a season" depending on how you drive.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by chrisseaton on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:44AM (#14375038)
I think the UK we don't even have the same 'lube shops' that you do. The dealerships change your oil at the yearly service.

It's a whole industry that you have that seems to be entirely redundant!

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by fps on Saturday May 20, 2017 @10:54AM (#14382638)
dealerships in the US are nicknamed "stealerships." People typically don't go to the dealership for service once the warranty is up, if at all. The dealerships in my area charge as much as 4x the cost of independent shops for maintenance: $120 for an oil change at the local toyota dealership vs. $30 at the garage 1/4 mile down the road. The dealership is also more likely to find non-existent problems with wear parts like brakes, belts, filters, suspension, etc to upsell you or push you to the sales department.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by alistairSH on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:43AM (#14375029)
3,000 mile oil changes hasn't been a standard recommendation in the US for at least a decade, probably longer.

These days, most (all?) cars have an idiot light that pops on every 5-10k miles, based on usage patterns. Some have a more robust algorithm than others. Either way, in my experience, my last 3-4 cars (Jeep, Lexus, Volvo, VW) have all gone about 8k miles between services, as indicated by the light.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by cr0sh on Friday May 19, 2017 @02:47PM (#14378346)
In all honesty, the only way you can really know when to change your oil is to have regular oil analysis done, to know when certain variables change that indicate "oil change needed soon" (or worse - service engine now). But that isn't cheap, and it must be done on a regular schedule, and you must also understand the results.

It used to be that the oil change interval was something like 3k miles for stop-n-go traffic (or dusty conditions) - ie, regular city driving. You could go about 6-8k for highway driving. If you were doing off-road driving, the number could be as low as 2k.

Today's oils are better, and so is the manufacturing and other factors; so longer intervals don't surprise me - but you have to be dealing with a newer car, something made in this century at least.

Even so, for my own vehicles I try not to go much beyond 6k between changes, and for one of my vehicles it's closer to the 3k mark (because I want it to last as long as possible - then again, its engine is a known oil-burner, and between oil changes I add enough oil for it to equal an oil change; I could almost just change the filter and do nothing else). The money I may be wasting isn't a big deal to me, plus I get a fresh filter (also, I do my own oil changes, so the numbers are a bit lower depending on what dino juice I use).

Generally, the best way short of an analysis to judge doing an oil change is by looking with your eyes at the color of the oil, by feel (rub it thru your fingertips), and by smell. It's a thing you have to get a "feel" for, and between that knowledge and what your miles since the last change, you can know if you need a change or not.

Another thing you can do (I learned this from a website that tested an analysis company - and to see how long they could really go between oil changes) is to (every 3k) drain a quart of oil out of the engine (you need something like a fumoto plug for this), and then swap on a new filter and refill with a new quart of oil. It's basically a "topping up" procedure, but if you do that, you can go for about 12k between full oil changes. However, you should only do this if you are analyzing your oil.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by convolvatron on Saturday May 20, 2017 @12:40AM (#14381068)
take the dipstick out, wipe it on your hand and give it a good whiff.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:24PM (#14383888)
The 'idiot light' is not based on miles, but on how much oil is actually in the engine. There's a sensor in there that if it touches air, essentially, the light goes on. You can trip this on certain VWs if you turn very sharply & you are low enough on oil.

Compare this to GM/Chevy vehicles where this is a 'solved problem' with their on board DICT computer, it measurements the containment (via resistance? electricity?) in the oil & tells you the 'health' or 'life' of the oil until you need to change it. This leads to a lot more reasonable oil change intervals in line with Mobile's testing over the years: 5k, 7k or 10k change intervals are common.

BMW is one of the few brands that recommends once a season, or 10k, because they know what oil is capable of, in so far as they've removed dip-sticks entirely (retarded decision, but hey). However, most dealerships & shops? They still want that sweet money on that 3k oil change. 5k has become the 'open secret' standard, though.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by alistairSH on Monday May 22, 2017 @09:56AM (#14393558)
The 'idiot light' is not based on miles, but on how much oil is actually in the engine. There's a sensor in there that if it touches air, essentially, the light goes on. You can trip this on certain VWs if you turn very sharply & you are low enough on oil.

I'm talking about the "Service Required" indicator/message that appears in the central info display, not the "Check Engine Light". Two different things in the VW, Lexus, and Jeeps I've owned.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Filligree on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:48AM (#14375558)
> In general people buying electric vehicles in 2017 are buying them for non-economic reasons. They lose money. Hybrids are likely the best bang for your buck, and may remain that way even after Tesla ship their $36K competitor (since no other major metric in the equation changes, electricity is still very expensive, and gas very cheap).

That may be true in America. Here in Norway, fuel costs 1.7 euros/L; that is, $7/gallon. The calculation comes out rather different.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by jes5199 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:12PM (#14372099)
I think it's possible that the economics of electricity will change dramatically in the next few years. Already, in several states, we see days where solar generation momentarily dramatically exceeds demand - and with solar so cheap now, that's only going to get more extreme. Charging batteries seems like a good thing to do with a power surplus, and it makes more economic sense to charge a consumer's battery than to fill up some grid-storage solution.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by givinguflac on Friday May 19, 2017 @10:59AM (#14376289)
For what it's worth, I've been driving an EV for three years and haven't spent a cent on fuel. My work parking garage has a free charger, as does my wife's. half a mile from my home there are free public charging stations as well. I could charge at home, but free electricity is awesome. I don't expect this to last forever of course, but it has made my car costs infinitely cheaper to run.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by ebbv on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:31PM (#14371910)
You'd be surprised at how much the maintenance savings are. They could easily make up the difference in price of the car. Especially when you count the $7500 tax refund for getting an EV. It's not just oil changes but everything else having to do with an ICE you get to skip out on. Plus brake changes are far more rare due to so much regenerative breaking.

Lastly I would add that you can't directly compare the cars on price in that way because the Bolt (and Nissan Leaf) are also much nicer cars than the base $23k Prius with many features the Prius doesn't have.

EDIT: oh and one more thing; I don't know about Utah but most energy companies in the US have different rates for electricity during the day or at night (off peak) and you can easily set your EV to charge overnight, saving even more money.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by davexunit on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:20PM (#14372144)
>I don't know about Utah but most energy companies in the US have different rates for electricity during the day or at night (off peak) and you can easily set your EV to charge overnight, saving even more money.

Thanks for mentioning this. It is significantly cheaper to charge at night if your energy company drops the price during off-peak hours. That $8 or $9 drops to like $3 or $4 here in MA with National Grid service. I did some really rough math and figured that it would cost about half as much to charge a Chevy Bolt from 0 to 100% than it would be to fill my current car, a 2014 Jetta, with gasoline. My greenhouse gas emissions will go down by over 50% judging from an estimate I got based on how MA currently generates energy.

That said, I put a deposit down on a Bolt Premier but am not sure if I will be buying it because it is damn expensive, even after tax rebates and such.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by shas3 on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:01PM (#14376945)
Honestly you can take the $10k+ difference and donate it to charity or save it up for your kid's college, if you have children. $10k can buy malaria nets for 4000 kids in Africa, if you donate to some place like Against Malaria Foundation. At the moment, I don't see any altruistic outcome from buying EVs. Personally, I am also against using any non-economic arguments in choosing cars, unless you are really rich and the difference is only a drop in the bucket.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by regulation_d on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:56PM (#14377450)
Part of the equation is that, conceivably, it's a good thing to give Tesla or whoever enough money to iterate on the things they're designing, so that through the iterations they can make them cheaper.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by ido on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:19AM (#14381382)
The cynic in me would say that saving 4000 African children would actually adversely affect the environment, where as supporting development of electric vehicles is at worst trivially beneficial.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by tdb7893 on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:31AM (#14374943)
They aren't quite economically feasible now but they are getting darn close. Also, how long do electric cars last? I assume they would last longer with the simpler drive trains (except for stuff like battery replacements) but I'm not sure because they are so new. If they can make them last longer that also would solve the economic issue pretty immediately
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mikeash on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:05PM (#14371084)
I own a Tesla S85 and recently had a Cadillac ATS rental for a few days. It was an interesting contrast, since the official 0-60 times of the two cars are almost the same, yet the Cadillac felt like an absolute slug by comparison.

I think a lot of it is that there's a great deal of lag in traditional drivetrains, and we rarely do 0-60 in actual real-life driving. More typically we're doing 0-30 or 30-40 or 55-65. Once the traditional drivetrain does all of its clunking around and can start putting down the power, it can compete, and in a 0-60 run that initial period isn't too bad. But in normal driving, the relative significance of the delay is huge. It doesn't just feel quicker, it is quicker for more typical situations.

At this point, the main thing traditional cars have going for them is cost. And that's probably just a matter of time.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by jstelly on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:14PM (#14371147)
I also have a model S, but I have owned a couple of other high performance gas cars that are much more responsive on the 55-65 or 40-70 acceleration test (passing at highway speeds). That's the only common case where the tesla loses to gas vehicles, and then only high performance gas vehicles (e.g. 300HP+ coupe/sedan models).

But the 0-30 thing is exactly right in my experience. Even more powerful vehicles don't have the instant and smooth acceleration feel of an electric motor.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by acchow on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:41PM (#14371351)
This is due to the rising power curve of ICE.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by epistasis on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:41PM (#14371680)
There's that, plus the time that it takes for the automatic transmission to decide that yes, you really do want to accelerate, and yes, maybe it ought to get around to increasing the RPMs one of these seconds.

Electric cars opened my interest car performance. I now have a higher performance ICE than I ever thought I would spend money on, but I still miss my tiny little electric Fiat 500e, even though my ICE is definitely better at 40-80mph.

Fiddling with gears, monitoring RPM, what a terrible system. Feels like a steam engine after being in an electric.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by jdhn on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:51PM (#14372000)
>Fiddling with gears, monitoring RPM, what a terrible system.

For some of us, this "terrible system" is one of the best parts of owning an ICE vehicle with a manual transmission.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dcwca on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:39PM (#14372232)
I can totally see how that would be true. You build muscle memory and positive associations around the operation of the machine. But you've gotta see too how it's akin to turning a rotary phone dial.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by bagels on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:08AM (#14372953)
In some ways, yes, but excluding dual clutch transmissions, manual transmissions really do have a performance advantage while rotary phones did not have any advantage over touch tone other than, maybe at one point, cost.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by adrianN on Friday May 19, 2017 @05:54AM (#14374141)
I doubt that there are many drivers who can outperform a modern automatic transmission.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dragontamer on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:31AM (#14376640)
I disagree. As eeks points out, fully automatic transmissions are kind of awful at making decisions.

I have a case when I was driving into work this morning. I got stuck behind a funeral procession going 35 MPH on a 65 MPH interstate highway (Uggghhhhh)

I look to my left-mirror, and I see a spot I can feasibly make, I just gotta time it right to get "into" the flow of traffic. So what do I do?

I drop to 2nd gear (The Gear ratios on the Ford Focus are kinda "weak"). My engine roars but its cool, because my engine's top-Torque is in the 4000RPM to 6000RPM band. When the "spot" opens up, I floor the acceleration pedal and get in just fine.

----------

A fully automatic vehicle wouldn't "know" that I wanted to "prepare" for the sudden acceleration. It only knows after you push the pedal.

A manual driver however, can tell the car to "prepare" for acceleration, so that when you push the accelerator you are 100% ready to go.

-------------

Semi-automatic vehicles (including some "sport" CVT engines I've test-driven) would work. The important bit is to be able to change gears way ahead of time BEFORE you push the accelerator.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:30PM (#14383929)
Automatic transmissions are better & smarter than you. you may have to drive a little differently if you're driving an automatic in the scenario you described, but saying that it doesn't ''know'' what you wanted to do means either your transmission is virgin & hasn't learned your habits, or, had a different driver for several years & is shifting at the wrong points. This 'ready to go' thing is all hogwash manual elitism.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dragontamer on Tuesday May 23, 2017 @02:23AM (#14399211)
Look, a CVT semi-automatic probably would outperform me. I'm no master driver or whatever.

But a typical automatic transmission? Dude, I have a huge advantage as a human. I have eyes. I can see things the engine cannot.

It takes time for a internal combustion engine to rev up to its ideal torque band. The Ford Focus is a turbocharged engine, which means it only achieves maximum torque above 4000 RPM.

Since most automatic transmissions are tuned for fuel efficiency (ie: 2000RPM band or so), they will perform worse when you're trying to accelerate. The manual driver has the advantage that they can choose fuel efficiency (ie: 2000RPM most of the time), or in cases of emergency... kick it into (low) gear for very high RPM to maximize the torque band.

-------------

ICE Engines are all about tradeoffs, and the manual driver can choose the RPM-band that best matches the situation.

Would a properly tuned automatic beat me in fuel economy? Probably.

Would a properly tuned automatic beat me in acceleration? Probably.

But no automtaic can be tuned to do both at the same time. Since high-Torque is high-RPM only... and fuel efficiency is low-RPM only... the computer cannot be tuned to try to do both at the same time.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mikeash on Sunday May 21, 2017 @03:44PM (#14388864)
Unless it's hooked into a sophisticated camera system, how could an automatic transmission possibly learn that I'm going to want a lot of acceleration in a couple of seconds once this car passes me?

By the way, I'm not a manual elitist, but rather an EV elitist. I like not having a transmission at all.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by eeks on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:04AM (#14374778)
Automatic, yes. Semi-automatic, no. With semi, the driver makes the decision, and the system execute it (the best in class is within 10ms IIRC).
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by greglindahl on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:33PM (#14377221)
Most electric cars have only 1 gear (including reverse), isn't that a manual transmission? :-) It doesn't automatically shift...
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by m3kw9 on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:26PM (#14371598)
That's no excuse
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by tyingq on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:09PM (#14371515)
Tesla fudged the 0-60 times for the S85 to be slower than actual. They claimed 5.4 seconds, independent testers saw 4.9 seconds or better. I suspect this is at least some of what you saw.

The "lag" at launch would be the power curve...power doesn't peak at low rpms.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by stupidhn on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:12AM (#14374818)
>I own a Tesla S85 and recently had a Cadillac ATS rental for a few days.

The MSRP on the Tesla is twice as much as the ATS, so I would expect performance differences.

>and we rarely do 0-60 in actual real-life driving.

Many people would be mostly satisfied with great handling over speed in daily driving, but don't know what that feels like in a car.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mikeash on Friday May 19, 2017 @10:03AM (#14375723)
My point is not just that the Tesla performs better, but that it does so despite a similar 0-60 time. The price difference has nothing to do with that.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by stupidhn on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:00AM (#14376294)
>The price difference has nothing to do with that.

Price has nothing to do with performance?

0-60 time is 0-60 time, regardless of how it feels. "Performance" can be measured. Maybe I'm still missing your point.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mikeash on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:18AM (#14376503)
The person I replied to described pretty much the same experience with an EV that costs about the same as the ATS. My overall point is that EVs tend to perform better for normal driving tasks despite having similar 0-60 time because you don't often do 0-60 runs in normal driving tasks. The ATS may well match my S85 in 0-60 time, but there's no way it matches the 0-30 time, which is far more common in normal driving.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mastre_ on Friday May 19, 2017 @06:02PM (#14379668)
I recently completed a day of high performance driving school where we ran M3s and M4s the whole day (these were all equipped w/ DCT, the Competition Package, and Carbon Ceramic brakes).

There is so much more to actual high performance driving than acceleration numbers. You may say "oh yea, cornering!" and while that's certainly delving deeper into it, there's a _lot_ more than just that (and many, many things go into "cornering").

So the M3/M4 w/ the competition package makes 444 hp and does 0-60 in 3.9s, which is "slow" compared to a P100D in Ludicrous Mode. It's actually really fast with just 2 driven wheels, but there's much faster out there. But, now:

- The Transmission. Transmissions are a technical solution to a technical limitation of ICE, namely the fact that the delta of engine speed is much smaller than the delta of wheel speed (even at "just" legal speeds), therefore gearing was introduced. Transmissions are not necessary, and should not be seen as something that's great about a car, if a car is capable of being driven at the full range of wheel speeds its market segment targets w/o a transmission. While the DCT is perhaps one of the best transmissions in the world (on par with exotics found in much more expensive vehicles), it will be a good riddance when it's no longer necessary. No matter how good a transmission is, there will be an imbalance in power when shifting, which _will_ upset the vehicle in a high performance cornering scenario, which the closer you are to the limit (with something like DCT, you will need to be a highly skilled driver to even begin to approach having this matter), the more it will count.

- Suspension and, directly related, vehicle weight. Your Tesla can do 3.x 0-60, but you need high performance suspension and low weight to make use of it in corners. Something like the M3/4, and even more so the suspensions GM has been putting in its high performance products like the Stingray (which trickles down to Camaros and ATS/CTSes), are a world away from just "standard" high performance suspension.

- Differentials, electronics. Limited Slip Differential will make a marked difference in high performance cornering when you're not exactly perfect. All the electronics for stability control, traction control, abs/braking, they all work in tandem. On the M3/4 they work really, really well. I was able to feel like Superman by pulling some feats that simply would not be possible without these advanced systems and my skill level. You would think that this is not so much of a good thing, but it actually works both ways and _can_ be good -- for example, as I got more confident on the AutoCross part of the day, I started to hit some of the nannies, particularly stability control which would not give me full throttle until I had unwound the steering wheel. Now, the instructors had been shouting this in my ear all day long, but actually _feeling_ this really connected it for me and I started to get it and was able to learn _faster_ because of the feedback I was getting from the car due to the nannies keeping me from wiping out. It was quite amazing, and I'm sure that very few of my fellow students realized just how much the electronics had helped them that day.

- Brakes! You need to stop. The simple fact that the M3/4 can be spec'd w/ Carbon Ceramic discs (which also moves from 4-piston to 6-piston calipers) puts it in a different class. We abused these cars all day long, maximum acceleration and maximum braking most of the time. The brakes never faded, it was simply incredible. 35-40 ppl abusing 12 cars (6 M3s & 6 M4s) for about 6 hours, zero fade (and zero mechanical issues out of a dozen cars). This makes it a street-legal track machine (tool), compared to just a car that gets to 60 MPH fast. We were told early on to literally "try to break the brake pedal off," and, because some students had reservations, they insisted "please, you cannot hurt these cars, do absolutely everything possible to break the brake pedal because we want you to experience maximum braking" (this was during a maximum braking exercise early on, which the later exercises built upon), finally adding "n fact, we challenge you, if you can break the brake pedal we'll give you the car for free." God knows I tried. Contrary to what you would think, the brakes had one of the most profound, lasting impressions on me, and I would absolutely, without batting an eye, spec the $8,500 option for the Carbon Ceramic brakes on these cars if I had the slightest inclination of tracking them.

- "Abuse" capacity. I'm not talking about long term reliability, as far as the engine is concerned, an electric engine _should_ be night & day compared to a complex, "cave age" ICE. But there's more to it, there's the drivetrain -- yea, even with a single speed, there are shafts, some sort of differential, in AWD applications even more complicated stuff going on. 35 monkeys trying to break these 12 cars resulted in.. nothing, not a single one of them exhibited any issues. The school ran for the whole week and we were the Wednesday class, so these cars had already been abused in similar fashion the 2 previous days. Now, these cars are engineered to do this, so it's not really abuse since they're made for it. That's why you're paying $80k+ for "just" an M3/M4 (again, with all the right options, the brakes being almost $10k of that), on paper it looks like "wtf, a Mustang GT makes about the same power" -- you're buying a real-deal track machine that's street-legal and, in 4 door guise, can take your kids to school too.

I _cannot wait_ for the time when there will be a comparable machine that does away with all the now-unnecessary complexity of ICE. Not having gearing and the issues it introduces will change some of the dynamics of high-performance driving, it will be superior even in the hands of pros. Until then, ICE is still here with us, and the 0-60 numbers on most/all cars are like MegaPixels on digital cameras.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mikeash on Friday May 19, 2017 @10:07PM (#14380673)
> and the 0-60 numbers on most/all cars are like MegaPixels on digital cameras.

I think you're telling the same story from the other side. And it's a good one!

I see two major problems to overcome before EVs can start to really intrude on this particular part of the world.

First is weight. A Tesla battery is somewhere around 1,000-1,500lbs. Putting it under the floor helps a lot, but that's a lot of weight to carry around. You can overcome that in straight-line acceleration by suppling lots of power, but other aspects of handling can't help but suffer. I'm not very experienced with this stuff, but I hear that the Tesla handles reasonably well for its size but at the end of the day it's huge and heavy.

Second is heat. The electric drivetrain is efficient, so it doesn't produce a lot of waste heat, but it still produces some. And it's a lot harder to remove. You'll never run into this in normal driving, but with the sort of activities you were getting up to, an EV would start to limit your power output pretty quickly.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by greglindahl on Saturday May 20, 2017 @12:25AM (#14381029)
Hey, I'm all for people who like track racing, but you know, there's other people who like drag racing, and still others who like being able to floor it from a stoplight and beat that Maserati driver who's scared to even try because he'll make an embarrassingly-loud noise and lose.

Different strokes and all that. And for 2 of the 3 groups I just mentioned, 0-60 times are not like MegaPixels on digital cameras.

Enjoy your track racing!

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by darksim905 on Saturday May 20, 2017 @03:32PM (#14383944)
Not to be a jerk, but how much does such an outing cost? :\
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by rbritton on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:13PM (#14371535)
Are you in any of the areas of Utah that are prone to a decent amount of winter weather? I'd be interested to know how the range is affected by cold weather. We routinely take 600-2000 mile (round trip) ski trips in the winter, so that kind of vehicle is a non-option still.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by DamnInteresting on Thursday May 18, 2017 @07:12PM (#14371823)
I'm in SLC proper, so I'm sure my battery range will be impacted in the coldest months. It'll still theoretically be well above my maximum needs for years to come, but just in case, our second car is an old fashioned ICE (which will likely be replaced with a hybrid one day).
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by timelol on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:33PM (#14371292)
I have an electric _bicycle_ that routinely dusts off ICE cars at stop lights. It just takes a while for all that machinery to start rolling.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by notatoad on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:43PM (#14371370)
I have a pedal-powered bicycle that dusts ICE cars at stop lights. For, like, 5 metres...

Not only does it take a while to get all that machinery rolling, doing it quickly kills your gas mileage. Most drivers aren't drag-racing out of the stoplights.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by lacampbell on Thursday May 18, 2017 @08:23PM (#14372150)
I have a pedal-powered bicycle that dusts ICE cars at stop lights. For, like, 5 metres...

I've noticed that too. I'm no athlete, but I can often beat cars across an intersection. Another thing I've noticed is that many cyclists don't shift down before they stop. They have to get up off their seat to even start. Even people in full kit on expensive bicycles do this.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Theodores on Thursday May 18, 2017 @09:55PM (#14372504)
The most 'ludicrous mode' vehicle for 0 to 5 metres has to be the small wheeled folding bicycle. After those first 5 - 25 metres other modes of bicycle will be going past at speed, but, in that initial start you cannot beat the low weight and low center of gravity found on a Dahon style folding bike with gears.

Trackstands are instinctive on the folding bike and the small wheel helps filtering through traffic immensely. The grip-shift gears are also very helpful, there may be only half a dozen of them but it is much easier to rattle through them than it is with conventional shifters. In combination the special features of the 'shopper bike' means that I ace the fixie guys, the guys that don't drop into the right gear, the road-pro's with their pedals to clip in to and the people that best know how to time the lights.

Getting off the seat is risky on a folding bike, putting a foot down easy, but there is no need for that or an awkward track stand, instead, for cool-ness(!) you can put your feet on the frame and coast along with feet up.

Anyway, as fun as it may be to be the fastest and for that to be achievable with simple gear selection on a folding bike, when I am on a different bike and going some distance, I do not care about acing every light through that town center, if I can merely get to where I am going without being sent on a mystery tour of a ring road, to not get lost (losing 5 to 30 mins) then I am happy.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by colanderman on Thursday May 18, 2017 @10:51PM (#14372705)
Yep, I have a 6-speed Brompton; I have to make a conscious effort not to pop a wheelie at every light change. Having a 3-speed hub shifter means I'm always sure to be in one of the two lowest gears at a light.

I do appreciate being able to stay ahead of cars for half of each block.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Vinnl on Friday May 19, 2017 @03:54AM (#14373673)
> Another thing I've noticed is that many cyclists don't shift down before they stop.

Heh, I even try not to stop at all, but to slow down a while before approaching the lights in hopes of them turning green before I reach them. Works relatively often. Unfortunately, more and more traffic lights in my town detect when there's someone waiting before changing to green, so you have to paddle all the way up to the light and then stop for a bit.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by maxerickson on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:42PM (#14371684)
It's the starting and stopping that kills mileage.

Rabbit starts don't really matter (modern engines don't waste a whole lot of fuel anywhere in the power band).

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by Neliquat on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:55AM (#14375632)
Its more about the loss, and subsequent regeneration of momentum. Some evs do quite well at this. But the real solution is better civil engineering standards like roundabouts that concerve momentum rather than forcing stops. That would benefit all cars, drivers, and non drivers alike.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by madengr on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:31AM (#14375407)
Yep, me too. Stand on the pedal with brakes on; torque at zero RPM. Though I have an EV too. Can't do that with an ICE unless power breaking.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by mason240 on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:10AM (#14375231)
>I have a pedal-powered bicycle that dusts ICE cars at stop lights. For, like, 5 metres...

But wow do I feel great for those 10 seconds before they catch up.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by jjawssd on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:13PM (#14371533)
> Most drivers aren't drag-racing out of the stoplights.

You sure about that? Out here they do.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by davidgay on Friday May 19, 2017 @12:47AM (#14373091)
I've always felt the biggest factor for dusting other vehicles is reaction time from the light going green...
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by driverdan on Friday May 19, 2017 @08:45AM (#14375044)
That's because you're going full power and the car driver isn't.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by davexunit on Thursday May 18, 2017 @09:27PM (#14372416)
Did you get the LT or Premier? Also, do you have a Level 2 EVSE at home? To me, the Premier version is the only version really worth getting (with the DC Fast charging port upgrade at the very least), but the price tag is a bit hard to look at, especially when thinking about the sale tax, dealership fees, registration fees, electrician fees for the EVSE installation (optional, but barely), etc. that go on top.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by DamnInteresting on Thursday May 18, 2017 @10:55PM (#14372724)
I deliberately chose the LT, few of the Premier options were desirable for me (I care not for heated seats, heated steering wheel, etc). Some of the driver assist options would be nice, but not enough to justify the cost for me. I'm a safe driver, I don't do anything silly like text or talk on the phone while driving.

Mine came with fast DC charge support, I don't know if they moved that to be a standard feature, or if I just got lucky. I've used public fast DC chargers a few times now.

At the moment I am relying on the equipped 110v home charger and public fast chargers, but I will eventually get a home 220v charger. It's just not urgent because I maintain plenty of range as long as I plug in whenever my car is at home.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Friday May 19, 2017 @07:05AM (#14374441)
One thing to consider is that a lot of stuff works well for electric cars simply because they are not that ubiquitous. For example, many states allow them in the HOV lane unconditionally. However, if they are a higher fraction of the total cars that will stop. I have seen electric car chargers at various parking lots. If you have an EV, you are likely now to find a spot. When they are a lot, the majority of EV won't find a spot. The other issue is overnight charging. People who live in apartments will have trouble finding charging spots, when nearly everybody in their complex also has an EV. In addition, the spike in nighttime power draw on the electric grid is going to be an issue, especially in areas that are dependent on solar power.

I think a large part of the driver for EV currently is as a social status signal. When, that start going away and the inconveniences of EV with respect to ICE start affecting people, a lot of the momentum will stop.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by fuzzybeard on Friday May 19, 2017 @01:31PM (#14377755)
Highway rest areas in CT have EV spots for charging. I see normal ICE parked there all the time. It's infuriating
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by gens on Friday May 19, 2017 @07:20AM (#14374521)
Electric cars have constant torque. And it's a smaller car then all those listed. That's probably why it feels faster.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by r00fus on Thursday May 18, 2017 @05:37PM (#14371321)
The Bolt EV 0-60mph is rated at 6.5s. That's amazingly fast.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by sgustard on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:49PM (#14371714)
A modern electric car like a Tesla, Bolt or i3 (I've driven all of them) really takes off like a roller coaster. Silent and instant smooth acceleration. They are amazingly fun to drive.
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by jonknee on Thursday May 18, 2017 @06:05PM (#14371496)
Is it? My diesel SUV is listed 0-60 in 5.8s...
Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by chiph on Friday May 19, 2017 @09:14AM (#14375260)
Not any more. A 2017 Camry (family car) with the V6 is 6.1 seconds.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/toyota-0-60-mph-ti...

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by pythonaut_16 on Friday May 19, 2017 @10:22AM (#14375887)
> with the V6

Are lots of people actually driving V6 Camrys? When I look at normal sedans the V6 engine is always a significant cost increase and completely destroys the car's MPG

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by dnissley on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:17AM (#14376499)
Googling around I see rumor of a 10-15% take rate on the camry v6.

Toyota sold about 430k camrys in the US last year, so that would mean about 43k - 65k. Which is 3-4 times the number of EVs sold that year.

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by oneshot908 on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:29AM (#14376616)
Some perspective: a beautiful 1964 V8 Mustang goes from 0-60 in 7.8 seconds. I'd say both these cars are pretty fast and that you're nitpicking.

http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1964/829160/ford_musta...

Re:America’s Cars Are Getting Faster and More Efficient by chiph on Friday May 19, 2017 @11:55AM (#14376887)
The list of 6-second cars is pretty long. One that stands out is the 2017 Buick LaCrosse at 6.0 seconds and is currently selling in the $28k range (there are some amazing deals out there at present). Again, family sedan. With numbers that 20 years ago would have been "race car numbers".

That Buick beats the time of the 1996 Saleen S281 Mustang.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/6-second-cars-0-60-mph-times/