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Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by furyg3 on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:50AM (#13614118)
After a crash Safari is nice enough to restore your open windows and tabs... I've noticed several times that it's also nice enough to re-open your private browsing windows, too. That throws up some red flags for me.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by abalone on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:37AM (#13614481)
That's a MacOS thing, not just a Safari thing. Windows stay open until you close them, even across restarts. MacOS, like iOS, has mostly retired the concept of "quitting an app kills state".

(You can go back to the old behavior via a system setting: "Close windows when quitting an app")

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by saurik on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:22AM (#13615163)
This feature isn't some kind of evil magic... it isn't like it is serializing the virtual memory state of the entire process to disk in the style of unexec(): programs have to manually decide what they think matters for their suspension state; correspondingly, if this happens, Safari would have to be incorrectly saving information that the user clearly doesn't expect or want.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by abalone on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:33PM (#13618159)
> Safari would have to be incorrectly saving information that the user clearly doesn't expect or want.

This is vestigial thinking from the MacOS perspective. The concept of "saving" is gone. The concept of "memory state" versus "disk" is gone, from the user perspective. Those are all implementation details now. For the user it's simply, your windows stay open until you close them. Quitting does not close windows, so it's not unusual to see them when you return to an app.

By the way, Safari in iOS does exactly the same thing. And given that iOS kills apps on its own, there would be no question that randomly killing private sessions would be a bug.

I mean maybe you could distinguish between a force quit and an OS quit, but why? Just close the windows if you want to clear them. The private window guarantee is there will be no trace after you close the window. It's just vestigial thinking that quitting apps also closes windows.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Nullabillity on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:40AM (#13614698)
Storing stuff on disk that should be kept purely in-memory is a Mac thing?
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by kalleboo on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:59AM (#13615051)
Being able to pull the plug/battery on a computer and then having the restored state be exactly the same is a Mac thing, yeah.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by yoz-y on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:07AM (#13615094)
In this particular case though it should not do so. Users do expect the private tabs to disappear after the window closes, no matter how it is closed.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Someone on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:41AM (#13615254)
I am not sure reopening private windows is a good idea, either, but Mac OS removed the rule "quitting an application closes its windows".

Given that, it is logical that it reopens private windows, just as, for example, TextEdit or Numbers reopen windows with content you never explicitly saved (even across reboots)

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by dTal on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:06AM (#13615836)
>Being able to pull the ... battery on a computer... is a Mac thing

Nope!

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by dTal on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:11AM (#13615864)
What is "quitting" then? How much state is stored? Between "no state" (window is a dead bitmap) and "all the state" (program is simply paused) is a lot of wiggle room.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by j_s on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:26AM (#13615526)
As long as this functionality is documented on the incognito start page, similar to "doesn't make you anonymous" warnings, it seems fine (by design) to me.

If anyone has any pointers to documentation on the forensics aspects of this I'd appreciate a link.

It doesn't look like there's that much open source available for the new-ish Windows 8+ hibernation file: https://github.com/volatilityfoundation/volatility/issues/25

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by throwaway2048 on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:17AM (#13615926)
Why would anyone find this behaviour desirable? We should ask that before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by j_s on Friday February 10, 2017 @11:52AM (#13616794)
before going to the "If its documented its the user's fault" truncheon

To be clear to anyone else reading this, that's not what I said nor close to what I meant. I think I understand where you're coming from though.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by throwaway2048 on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:59PM (#13617907)
sorry for the quotes didn't intend to make it look like you said that.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by M4v3R on Friday February 10, 2017 @04:33AM (#13614273)
Well to be honest they don't say that the browser doesn't store your browsing data temporarily. As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session. Normally this data gets wiped out when you close the window, but when the browser crashes it doesn't have chance to do so, so they restore the windows for you so you can make the decision whether to close them or not.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by devwastaken on Friday February 10, 2017 @04:54AM (#13614353)
> As a matter of fact it has to do that in order to provide you with caching, cookies and local storage for your private browsing session.

This is solved by knowing what is stored is private browsing data, which should be marked anyways. Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by madeofpalk on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:01AM (#13614548)
> Safari just isn't that well thought out of a browser

Safari is just a browser that has made a different set of tradeoffs.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by devwastaken on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:13AM (#13614584)
What tradeoff? Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently, and if they crash, will not be able to just restore it. Even if they did, its still bad design. The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore. You can still pull it up in new tabs in Firefox, but not if the window itself closes.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by kalleboo on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:51AM (#13615020)
I'm just speculating here, but since macOS/iOS have native APIs that automatically enable state restoration, Safari might be using those instead of reinventing the wheel for cross-platform compatibility like Chrome and Firefox need to.

Leveraging native APIs means less code (fewer bugs), less disk usage, less RAM usage, etc.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by k-mcgrady on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:02AM (#13615066)
>> Both chrome and Firefox treat private browsing data differently

>> The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore.

When defining what private browsing is supposed to do we should keep in mind Safari was the first major browser to introduce the feature.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by daxelrod on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:05AM (#13615824)
Sure, but it also didn't save/restore any window or tab state at that time. All those features came later, so this represents a change in how things act between Safari versions.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by blowski on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:36AM (#13614934)
> The point of private browsing is to make it so when that window exits, that data doesn't exist anymore

Who defined it that way? And how do you define 'exit', 'data' and 'exist'?

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by devwastaken on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:24AM (#13615508)
What is reality anyway?
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by aljones on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:16AM (#13615909)
Typically in macos, closing windows doesn't quit applications and quitting applications doesn't close windows.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by neotek on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:33AM (#13613657)
Sounds like a mistake rather than some nefarious data collection strategy.

Apple doesn't rely on advertising revenue like Google or Facebook so in the past they've been much more likely to avoid collecting data whenever it could get in the way of their self-professed privacy narrative.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by kartickv on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:54AM (#13614137)
Storing data on Apple's cloud services is a privacy risk given their inability to keep it secure. We had the celebrity iCloud hack, caused at least in part by Apple not using 2FA for iCloud logins. And now this privacy failure.

Storing your data on a cloud service that isn't competent is a privacy risk.

And a reliability risk, as I found out last year when my albums on iCloud Photos disappeared. Not the photos themselves, just the albums in which I organised them, but organising data can take a lot of time, and any data loss is unacceptable. They weren't in trash.

Apple's "self-professed privacy narrative" is partly right, but partly marketing, and partly disingenous, as if collecting data has no other purpose than advertising: https://dcurt.is/privacy-vs-user-experience To be clear, I'm not taking a black-and-white view; it's partly right, partly wrong.

BTW, The Verge wasn't clear — was the forensics firm getting data from an iDevice or Mac's local storage, or across the Internet from iCloud servers?

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by izacus on Friday February 10, 2017 @04:32AM (#13614270)
Apples approach to security is nicely summarized by the fact, that you're not allowed to use 2FA for iCloud at all on a Mac if you don't own an iPhone.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by simonh on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:15AM (#13614402)
Both two step authentication and two factor authentication can be set up to use text message or phone call verification to an arbitrary phone number.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by izacus on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:29AM (#13614452)
According to this: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

a "trusted device" is only an Apple device, phone calls are for backup when you lose them. Even after that it's significant inconvenience in comparison to any other vendor using a standardized OTP approach working with any application that implements the standard. It's one of the little ways how Apple makes not owning an iOS device inconvenient for mac users.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by madeofpalk on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:05AM (#13614560)
It's extremely confusing, but Apple has two types of multple-factor authentication solutions in use.

The 'legacy' (my phrasing, only because it was the first implemented) MFA is SMS-based, and thus has not dependency on iPhones.

There's a newer (about a year or two old by this point) solution which has a 'richer user experience' and depends on having other Macs or iPhones to receive the MFA authentication dialogs.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by glhaynes on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:22PM (#13619440)
The newer solution ("Two-factor authentication") also allows non-Apple phones to receive a code on their "trusted phone number". From the support page linked in a nearby comment:

What if I don’t have access to a trusted device or didn't receive a verification code?

If you're signing in and don’t have a trusted device handy that can display verification codes, you can have a code sent to your trusted phone number via text or a phone call instead. Click Didn't Get a Code on the sign in screen and choose to send a code to your trusted phone number. You can also get a code directly from Settings on a trusted device.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by simonh on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:38AM (#13614486)
I believe Apple prefers that people use a trusted device as from their point of view this is more secure as they can verify the entire communications loop so they view this as a fallback option, but you certainly can use non-Apple devices to authenticate. They also don't appear to throw up any roadblocks to doing so.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by mcintyre1994 on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:04AM (#13614791)
Isn't the fallback only SMS/phone? That seems like a roadblock compared to say Google Authenticator.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by AlphaSite on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:32AM (#13615573)
Actually the new 2FA method they introduced somewhat recently does allow this.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by blauditore on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:02PM (#13620034)
Also, you're forced to use silly old password reset questions (from a predefined list). I just recently had to do this for my dev account (not Apple user otherwise) and was mildly shocked. There were no questions people knowing me couldn't answer with moderate research effort...
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Anechoic on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:33AM (#13616032)
We had the celebrity iCloud hack, caused at least in part by Apple not using 2FA for iCloud logins.

iCloud has offered 2 step authentication since 2013 [0]. From what I can tell, the celeb hack happened a few weeks before the public release in mid-2014.

[0] https://9to5mac.com/2013/03/21/apple-beefs-up-icloud-apple-i...

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by onion2k on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:17AM (#13614600)
Apple's iAd advertising network only closed down a few months ago. They still have searchads for their apps stores and iTunes. Advertising isn't a big part of their business, but they do have good reason to collect data for targeting.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by feelix on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:40AM (#13613866)
If you're concerned about artifacts being left around, then you should also know that there is a log file of every file you've ever downloaded, including in private browsing mode. You can see it with this: https://macdaddy.io/cleandisk/
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by skissane on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:46AM (#13614100)
Today I learned that $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 is a sqlite database. The LSQuarantineEvent table contains every file you ever downloaded, the source URL is in the LSQuarantineDataURLString column.

sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'select LSQuarantineDataURLString from LSQuarantineEvent'

sqlite3 $HOME/Library/Preferences/com.apple.LaunchServices.QuarantineEventsV2 'delete from LSQuarantineEvent'

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by justinclift on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:13AM (#13614830)
It's directly loadable using a GUI too (eg sqlitebrowser.org), for anyone that prefers the graphical approach.

And yeah, it had all kinds of interesting stuff I've downloaded over the years in mine. Now cleared. ;)

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Udo_Schmitz on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:14AM (#13614586)
Interesting. But I see only fairly old stuff there. And I'd guess only downloads from a single day or week a few years ago.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by petrikapu on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:36AM (#13614477)
Select gives me 22 rows. I'm pretty sure I've download much more. Maybe per session?
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by skissane on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:17AM (#13614605)
I saw stuff in there I downloaded days or maybe even weeks ago. (Couldn't tell you exactly when since I've deleted it all now.) I've heard reports of people seeing downloads from years ago.

Here is a SQL to view timestamps:

SELECT datetime(LSQuarantineTimeStamp + 978307200, "unixepoch", "localtime") as LSQuarantineTimeStamp from LSQuarantineEvent

(Based on http://www.forensicswiki.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X with modification.)

In my testing, only downloads from Safari are logged here, not those from Firefox (haven't tested Chrome). If you don't use Safari as your primary browser, that might explain not seeing many downloads.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by feelix on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:07AM (#13614569)
No, it's permanent. Try the app and I think you'll see a longer history.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Udo_Schmitz on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:14AM (#13614590)
Won't even start without admin password, I'll pass.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by 9gunpi on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:17AM (#13613973)
Apple engineers are not different from the rest of people - deliver first, fix when fails. Wiping tombstones in constantly-syncing environment is a cumbersome piece of engineering.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by r721 on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:54AM (#13613717)
That's why I'm wary of browser sync as a concept. Maybe it's not as convenient, but I would better transfer bookmarks as an export file, and passwords as a password manager encrypted container. As for browsing history I'm not even sure it has any long-term importance - useful browsed links can be bookmarked, saved to delicious/diigo/pinboard, tweeted, upvoted on reddit/hn, whatever.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by CaptSpify on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:06AM (#13613748)
FF used to have browser-sync that you could send to your own server. Last I checked they had disabled it, but I wish it could be revitalized.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by pmontra on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:08AM (#13613939)
I didn't try but it doesn't seem to be disabled. They have two guides

Self hosted sync server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-sync-1.5.html

Self hosted accounts server https://docs.services.mozilla.com/howtos/run-fxa.html#howto-...

The latter includes instructions about how to add the accounts server url to about:config

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by mziulu on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:20AM (#13615479)
Can confirm, still works fine as it always did.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by CaptSpify on Friday February 10, 2017 @12:15PM (#13616998)
Ah, nice. I'll need to look into setting this up. Thanks!
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by veeti on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:40AM (#13614072)
Both the old and new sync encrypt all data before storing it on the server.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:28AM (#13613823)
Has anyone heard about an open source extension doing the same thing?
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Outpox on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:39AM (#13614064)
I wanted to make one for Vivaldi but it doesn't use Chromium bookmarks API and there was a discussion about it already where it was said to be implemented with the option to sync on a self-hosted server. (https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/5816/sync-settings-and-bookm...) I've also been working on one for Chrome but haven't had time lately to work on it.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by mrmondo on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:31AM (#13614021)
Firefox has the ability to save bookmarks and all settings for that matter to a local folder upon closing the browser, you could then use an open source and hopefully encrypted sync tool to replicate those backups. Might be a bit clunky at first but if it catches on I'm sure one of the open source sync tools will come up with some sort of integration.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by driverdan on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:53AM (#13615317)
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by marricks on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:20AM (#13613616)
That's not good, but at least they had this going for them?

> Unlike most iCloud data, the records don’t seem to have been accessible to law enforcement requests. Apple declined to comment when reached by The Verge.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by yakult on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:42AM (#13613683)
I would like more clarification as to what this means. Does this mean the histories are purely client-side? If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by 9gunpi on Friday February 10, 2017 @03:18AM (#13613978)
>If that's not the case, I don't see how they can make this claim.

Nobody knew it was even available?

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by gilgoomesh on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:29AM (#13614453)
That whole sentence seems mistaken since no iCloud data is available to law enforcement. iCloud is AES encrypted with keys that are held by the user-only (not Apple).

As people have pointed out, yes, Apple is a trusted part of the system and could release a new iOS/macOS update that captures these keys but short of that, neither Apple nor law enforcement have any access to your iCloud data.

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by petrikapu on Friday February 10, 2017 @05:44AM (#13614505)
I think Apple has keys for your iCloud data.

"iCloud uses a minimum of 128-bit AES encryption and never provides encryption keys to any third parties."

If I interpret this correctly I am first party, Apple is second and third is everyone else.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by tinus_hn on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:02AM (#13614554)
If that were really the case, how could you restore your data to a new iPhone? It's probably like the Dropbox encryption: its encrypted but they do have the key.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by Zr40 on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:52AM (#13615315)
The key could be encrypted using the account password.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by leecarraher on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:19AM (#13615469)
backup system probably supports do not follow links, just need to add safari cache to the list. seems pretty innocuous. And if you are doing illegal stuff in your non-private browsing session, on a device that automatically backs up all of your data to the cloud... pretty sure you've left plenty of paper trail elsewhere.
[dead]
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by chillaxtian on Friday February 10, 2017 @01:48AM (#13613698)
tombstones are necessary when doing distributed deletes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombstone_(data_store)

Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by dantiberian on Friday February 10, 2017 @02:25AM (#13613810)
That was my thought too, it sounds like the tombstones were never deleted.
Re:iCloud was storing cleared browsing histories by VeejayRampay on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:07AM (#13615095)
Doesn't matter, it's Apple and not Microsoft or Google, all is forgiven.