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Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by pharrlax on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @10:47PM (#13547934)
This is one of the biggest reasons it was refreshing as hell to move to the big city, as paradoxical as that sounds.

Rural/suburban life is like living in a barren wasteland marked by occasional oases you have to travel between in a metal spaceship.

Living in an area where commuting to work and activities by foot is completely normal feels like rediscovering a lost sense of communal society, and there's a relief and a comfort to it that's difficult to articulate.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SomeCallMeTim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:46AM (#13548848)
I live in a small suburban city and I can walk to:

* The library (5 minutes)

* A supermarket (8 minutes)

* A dozen restaurants (7-15 minutes; mostly local restaurants + 2 fast food chains)

* Two liquor stores

* A drug store (12 minutes)

* A coworking space (15 minutes)

* Several antique stores (12-15 minutes)

* (Almost forgot) Walmart (10 minutes)

* Two barbers (8-12 minutes)

* At least three major bus lines

And if I get on a bike, I can go across the entire town in 20 minutes, which puts me in range of more supermarkets, a local game store, a Gamestop, a bowling alley, at least two dozen more restaurants, and tons more.

There are places to live in my town that I would be stuck driving (or at least biking) everywhere. But I chose a place near the downtown area, and I can walk to tons of places. And I do.

Not fond of big cities. My kids can wander around my neighborhood or walk to the park, and we don't worry at all. Granted it's not six miles to the park. Six miles in any direction and you've left the small city I live in. But we're trying to resist the helicopter parenting style.

That said, I think there's another thing that's missing from this discussion: People are having fewer kids. Sometimes they have a single kid. So it's natural when all your eggs are in one basket to be a bit more paranoid about that basket.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by TulliusCicero on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:33AM (#13549020)
That's exceptional though. Most American suburbs aren't like that at all, and many of the ones that do have a walkable area, most of their housing is still in unwalkable areas.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by taurath on Thursday February 02, 2017 @07:04AM (#13549923)
Specificlly built to be unwalkable in fact, to keep out "undesirables".
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by rm_-rf_slash on Thursday February 02, 2017 @08:18AM (#13550281)
Source?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by baursak on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:05AM (#13550958)
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by rm_-rf_slash on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:54AM (#13551368)
Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by TulliusCicero on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:00PM (#13552066)
To a certain extent you have to read between the lines, people aren't usually gonna come out and say, "Yes, these regulations are to prevent minorities and the poor from coming to my neighborhood." But that's kind of the obvious takeaway from, say, zoning regulations that mandate houses/lot sizes of a minimum large size: they make it so that a lower-middle class family can't enter an upper-middle class neighborhood by simply purchasing a smaller house on a smaller plot of land.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SomeCallMeTim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:54PM (#13554560)
Probably 30% of the housing in my town is manufactured homes, though (i.e., dirt cheap), and the city council and planners are actively looking for ways to improve diversity of housing. The people living here in the rich-people subdivisions predictably are against any higher density housing being built, though, probably for exactly the reasons you site (some explicitly site "undesirables", despite the already existing low-income housing).

They also complain that it will affect their view, though. Not the view from their homes, but as they drive along the road. Considering the housing is proposed for right behind a WalMart and other big box development, and in the opposite direction from the mountains from their subdivision. Sigh. "But we'll have to drive past it on the way to WalMart or the grocery! OMG!"

Despite having plenty of "undesirables" (not my word), we're in the top-10 safest cities in the state (#3 or 4, if I recall). The neighboring town (Louisville, CO) has won "best place in the US to raise a family" several times.

And the state is Colorado, where even the "rough" cities are actually pretty safe to begin with. I used to live in Oakland, CA, so there's probably no area in Denver that I'd be uncomfortable walking around at night. There are places I've been quite wary of in Oakland, though.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SomeCallMeTim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @04:01PM (#13554615)
>That's exceptional though.

Yes, it's the exception. But it's not non-existent. You just need to choose to live in an area like that.

I lived in Oakland, CA, and had the ability to walk to tons of restaurants, a post office, and a library. And Bart. But Oakland counts as "big city" by most measures.

I also lived in Lafayette, CA [0], walkable to Bart, restaurants, and grocery shopping. And Alameda, CA, walkable to grocery, the post office, an entire shopping center (Southshore [1]), and a beach. And in Boulder CO where I could walk to a supermarket, restaurants, and a library. And another location in Boulder where I could walk to restaurants.

And I've looked at walkable housing in a dozen other suburban cities. If "walkability" is your priority, you can find it all over the place.

[0] Ironically I'm now in Lafayette Colorado. I keep saying I just have a couple more Lafayttes to live in, and I can collect the whole set. :)

[1] http://www.alamedasouthshorecenter.com/

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by MarkPNeyer on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:13AM (#13548960)
Curious - what city is this?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SomeCallMeTim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:43PM (#13554462)
Lafayette, CO. Though neighboring Louisville is similar, and Boulder proper has some very walkable areas as well (at twice the price).

Edit to add: Longmont, CO has a charming walkable downtown as well, plus gigabit ethernet for cheap. In case you care. :)

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by MK999 on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:17AM (#13551045)
Sounds like an old railroad town that became a suburb. When was your city founded?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SomeCallMeTim on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:43PM (#13554468)
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by visarga on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:25AM (#13548998)
> when all your eggs are in one basket

Almost literally your eggs in one "basket".

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:16PM (#13548061)
>Rural >barren wasteland

If you're a glass half empty person. Many people see it as freedom to do close to whatever you want without anyone caring.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by macNchz on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:21AM (#13548548)
I think the important distinction there is between rural and suburban.

I grew up in a rural small town and now live in NYC... I love my neighborhood in the city for how extremely walkable it is, the breadth of diversity in people, food, opportunities etc. However I do often miss, for example, going for aimless drives with no traffic or stoplights, finding solitude on a dirt road 5 minutes from home with not a house or person in sight, hiking, camping, shooting and snowmobiling essentially right outside the door.

In the burbs I still get the same kind of 'trapped' feeling I'll sometimes get in the city, but without the benefits of living in a dense city: endless things to do, many friends within walking distance, and tons of places to share a drink or meal with them.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by vkou on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:36AM (#13548822)
I can assure you, your suburban HOA is extremely caring about what you do. Heaven forbid you change the colour of your curtains.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by thomnottom on Thursday February 02, 2017 @09:11AM (#13550566)
I've lived in suburbs most of my life and have never had a HOA.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by baursak on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:22AM (#13551084)
I've lived all my life without ever visiting China.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by thomnottom on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:58AM (#13551402)
Not sure the point of this. The implication of the parent was that HOAs severely restrict freedoms in the suburbs. My point was that HOAs are not a requirement for living in the suburbs.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by NoGravitas on Thursday February 02, 2017 @08:44AM (#13550411)
Suburbs are really the worst of both worlds. City and rural both have their appeals. Suburbs have nothing.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by balabaster on Thursday February 02, 2017 @09:18AM (#13550613)
The suburbs truly are a barren wasteland of nothing. Without your car, they're a soul sucking prison with all the rules of the city and none of the pay-offs.

I now live in rural Canada. I've spent much of my adult life living in dense cities after having grown up in rural England - London, Vancouver, Houston, Toronto. You can't compare the advantages of either environment - rural or city, but the suburbs truly are the worst of each. You get a lot of space you can't do anything of any value with because of all the rules defined for the comfort of your neighbours who you either have never met or are a pain in your ass; and you can't walk anywhere because there's nowhere to walk.

When you live surrounded by farmland, you can camp for free, hunt, be outdoors, roam on your bike, let your kids climb trees and hike and explore on their own, build treehouses and let them play Lord of the Flies to their heart's content. They can grow, find themselves and become self confident self assured leaders who don't need Mommy every time they graze a knee and have thick skin that doesn't cry to be soothed every time someone insults them, because "they've got this".

In the city you've still got all the stifling rules of suburbia, but you have a pay off: Everything is to hand, you can ditch your car and walk everywhere or take public transit, get on your bike, become part of a tight community of city dwellers. There's extensive culture right outside your door, night life, excitement and high energy... that never. Ever. Shuts. Off.

Eventually the city grinds you down though. It's exciting and freeing for a while, and if you grew up in the city, you might never notice it; but if you grew up in the countryside or the mountains eventually you'll notice it and begin to feel trapped, you'll begin to miss your roots and the simple life, you'll grow sick of trying to keep up with the relentless onslaught of the media, the billboards, the shop windows telling you that you're not enough, you need this to feel better, you need this to look better, you need this to be better and you'll begin to long for an escape from the ceaseless assault of your mind.

Rural life is a different kind of freedom... where you can see the stars.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by baursak on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:18AM (#13551058)
As someone who considered this, there are a few other factors where cities are preferable.

Work. If you're not running your own online business and need a skilled/tech job, you don't have much choice.

Schools. Cities often have better school options for your kids.

Politics. Rural areas across the world generally lean conservative, and sometimes downright way too conservative.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by balabaster on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:52AM (#13551357)
Work: This is a matter of priority... you can always find ways to pay the bills and put food on the table. It might not be doing exactly what you love, or it may be. There are ways to make almost anything work if you spend the graft making a name for yourself. You're right, it's frequently easier, dare I say simple to find a comfortable job doing what you love in the city. I'm at a point now where I have enough of a client base who trust the quality of my work to give me the freedom to work from home part time which makes this a lot easier. But even in the countryside, if you're capable and interested in learning new skills to a high degree of quality, which I am, there will always be people willing to help you put a roof over your head and food on your table.

Schools: I agree, you can't substitute a good education, but there are more ways to educate kids to a high level than sitting in a classroom. Scouts, Guides, 4H, Outward Bound, there are many stables that need stable hands, farms that need labour. There are endless numbers of lessons to be learned about working as a team, discipline to work on your own etc. etc. etc. There are many ways to effectively supplement their academics that they would never stand a chance of getting in the city. It just takes a different way of looking at things. That's not to say that the academic education kids get in the city is to be dismissed. But the more I hear about our inner city schools failing our kids, the more I wonder how effective they even are in this current climate.

Politics: This is very geo-specific. There are many liberal, conservative and more socialist leaning communities. It really depends on the demographic of that area and who the tax system is set up to benefit. The village I grew up in tended to be much more moderate... I'm not sure how to describe it actually, liberally conservative perhaps? We had a socialist mayor when I was growing up there and the closest town was quite metropolitan, but still enjoyed the benefits of the socialist leaning community that all looked out for one another. It was pretty much live and let live, help each other out, look after your neighbours, proud of their community and the town was very well kept and maintained. If an area is downright too conservative and that's not for you, I'd suggest not living there ;)

Even in rural areas, you can find much more in common with your neighbour than you think, regardless of their political sway, whether they're a hardcore biker or businessman, doctor, lawyer, farmer. We're all in this together, even if some of their ideals don't quite mesh with your own.

https://peperperspective.com/2017/02/01/we-are-more-alike-th...

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by baursak on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:34AM (#13551814)
Thanks for your response. One thing I got curious about -- are you aware of any liberal or socialist leaning communities in rural Canada?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by balabaster on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:52AM (#13551985)
Most of Canada is pretty liberal leaning... especially since the Harper Government was ousted. Most of the country seem to like Trudeau pretty well.

Many of the more European leaning communities are much more inclusive of neighbours needs and looking after each other which is a more socialist type trait.

Let me clarify, when I say socialist, I don't mean the brand of socialism that's sold by American propaganda in the way Communism was in the 60's which caused everyone to be terrified of it. I mean the brand of socialism where everyone is not only happy to contribute and be taxed for the good of their community, to improve infrastructure, hospitals, education, waste services, emergency services etc. but they feel it's their duty to their community and do it proudly. Everyone feels it's their duty to ensure that nobody is left behind and mucks in to make it so.

Conservative everyone-out-for-themselves-and-fuck-everyone-else attitudes tends to be a much more American stance on Conservatism, even Conservatives here in Canada tend to be much more community minded and inclusive - it's enshrined in the culture here, "immigration and diversity is our strength." Especially in communities with a large youth contingent.

I'm guessing, so please take this with a grain of salt: I would say look at the age demographics of a community, the lower the median age, I would wager, the more likely the community is to lean more moderately or towards liberal or socialist ideals.

It has been my experience that French communities tend to lean more heavily towards the ideals of France, which are more socialist in that respect and the Polish people I know also seem to lean more heavily towards the ideals of Poland, which being European isn't a world different. Immigrants (in my experience) tend to favour what they grew up with and know. As an immigrant myself, I can understand that sentiment.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by bigmanwalter on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:08AM (#13550982)
That was beautiful :) I'm stealing your closing line.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by balabaster on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:27AM (#13551123)
Thanks, I don't mind you stealing it ;)
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by ddoolin on Thursday February 02, 2017 @09:16AM (#13550596)
Often newer housing that is closer to the urban center where people work (something you typically do 5 times a week) but is also so much more affordable than living in the city. I think they have appeal, but only for the budget-minded.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by Noos on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:31AM (#13551782)
but many suburbs don't have a HOA at all. I think some of the issue here is specifically upper-middle class problems. In my suburb its been just as it was when I grew up. Kids can play on the road easily, they live within walking distances of schools, etc,
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by SteveNuts on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:43AM (#13548839)
Think past the suburbs...
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by m3rc on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @11:29PM (#13548121)
What, people who live in cities don't have freedom? And the user you replied to wasn't talking about space available like in a truly rural setting, they were talking about how it's impossible to live in a suburban or rural setting without centering your life around the car you drive.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by yen223 on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:09AM (#13548265)
Cities offer more choices, rural areas offer more freedom
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by bravura on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:59AM (#13548682)
Really? Have you tried wearing drag in a rural area?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by throwanem on Thursday February 02, 2017 @05:45AM (#13549577)
Have you tried plinking cans in your backyard, or cleaning a deer, in a city?
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by icebraining on Thursday February 02, 2017 @08:58AM (#13550483)
That's a very specific case. Plinking cans would be illegal around here, except in a shooting range.

As for deer, does boar count? If so, then definitively.

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by throwanem on Thursday February 02, 2017 @09:10AM (#13550557)
I don't know where "here" is. But drag is a very specific case, too.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by cmdrfred on Thursday February 02, 2017 @08:29AM (#13550331)
I assure you that you won't be arrested for wearing drag in rural Pennsylvania, you will however be arrested in Philadelphia if you start a bonfire or ride a dirtbike in your backyard.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by couchand on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:11AM (#13548505)
Oh, were it that simple.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by m3rc on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:59AM (#13551415)
I don't know if I've ever seen "choices" and "freedom" framed as in opposition. And I don't see how having to pour money into a fossil fuel powered cage and having to keep your kids inside like this post talks about is helping in the directive of freedom.
Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by pjc50 on Thursday February 02, 2017 @04:38AM (#13549297)
What do you have the freedom to do that you can't do in a city, other than constraints of space and physical geography? Rurally you're still constrained by all that seemingly open land belonging to other people, plus the time constraints of getting to places.

You have fresh air, views, and quiet (provided you're not in the middle of an agribusiness rural area).

(Talking about "freedom" in the pure abstract is vague; freedom to/from what?)

Re:How Children Lost the Right to Roam in Just 4 Generations by distances on Thursday February 02, 2017 @09:20AM (#13550626)
I know this discussion is from the US point of view, but land belonging to other people is not a problem everywhere. Many countries (at least in Northern Europe) have "freedom to roam" [1] which in addition to actual roaming may include camping, picking berries and mushrooms, et cetera.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam