News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tabeth on Saturday January 28, 2017 @01:56PM (#13508050)
Why is that all of these posts saying to "take a stand" fail to explain the political process? I'll just quote myself here. If you want to help stop trump the most effective ways are to:

1. Call

  - Local congresspeople (http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/)

  - Senators (https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/)

  - Local officials (https://www.usa.gov/elected-officials)
2. Participate

  - Get involved in local elections (this is a decent start - to become informed locally http://www.npr.org/stations/)

  - Protest

  - Attend town hall and city council meetings (see npr)
3. Share

  - Tell your friends 
4. Vote (https://www.usa.gov/register-to-vote)

5. Volunteer

6. Stop reading and start doing one of the other things.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by methehack on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:07PM (#13508116)
I think Mr. Altman is largely addressing tech CEOs here and urging them to make public statements. The actions you list are great for you and me, but he's mostly not really talking to us.

Supporting quotations from the post (because evidence): "The tech community is powerful. Large tech companies in particular have enormous power and are held in high regard. We need to hear from the CEOs clearly and unequivocally"

"At a minimum, companies should take a public stance."

Re:Time to Take a Stand by guelo on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:23PM (#13508307)
The most effective action tech companies can take is what they did against SOPA: post large protest banners on popular websites. Though I don't think this is the right time to take that step. There are many outrages ahead, many will be directly related to tech, like killing net neutrality, forcing tech companies to compile Muslim registries, banning tech worker and student visas, and who knows what else. I think tech companies should reserve their fire for the many battles to come. Many different parts of society will be involved in these fights, it's not only up to tech communities to fight every battle.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:27PM (#13508976)
Don't post banners about the US refusing reentry to Green Card holders who are the spouses of American citizens, or who fought alongside our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, because that might dilute our protests against net neutrality?

After a period of 6-12 months outside the country, US Green Card holders lose their Green Cards.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by pvg on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:08PM (#13509336)
After a period of 6-12 months outside the country, US Green Card holders lose their Green Cards.

In a time of grave concern for many green card holders, it's probably better to avoid this sort of inaccurate info. It's freakout time but let's stick to freaking out about true things.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:14PM (#13509386)
Could you please true up the information?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by pvg on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:37PM (#13509536)
I'm no immigration lawyer - just a greencard holder who's been through a couple of adventures in the process. There's a decent summary here:

http://lawandborder.com/risk-abandoning-green-card-abroad-6-...

Key things: 6 months absence can be a factor in challenging your status as a Lawful Permanent Resident. 12 months absence means your green card (the actual document) is no longer valid for re-entry but it doesn't automatically make you a non-LPR.

Customs and Border Patrol can deny you entry, as we've just seen, on the basis executive action, legally questionable or not. But they can't take away your LPR status - only an order from an immigration court judge can do that.

A lot of this is cold comfort to any LPR caught up in this and unable to re-enter right now - but there is a process and the status itself is not so trivial to take away. The call to help organizations who provide legal aid to such people (and refugees and other visa holders) seems like the right thing to me, it's probably the most immediate need.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:43PM (#13509573)
You're right, even as I wrote the original comment I knew in the back of my head that "lose their green card" wasn't the right way to put it; I just wrote carelessly. Thanks!
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:25PM (#13509452)
I'll true it up for you, it is actually worse than you describe.

If you are absent > 6 months you could end up with your green card status listed as 'abandoned', but even if you come back every 6 months that is no guarantee at all that it will not be listed abandoned.

The golden rule seems to be to be more than 6 months per year in the USA, preferably substantially more than 6 months to avoid ambiguity.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by vsl on Sunday January 29, 2017 @03:32AM (#13513037)
Green card is for people who want to immigrate into US; US isn't interested in granting citizenship to people living elsewhere (never was), the stated goal is to diversify US population. Given that, such a requirement makes sense - and is very common in immigration procedures around the world.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by slededit on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:48PM (#13536123)
The rules to naturalize are separate and more stringent than the rules to maintain the green card. Talking about granting citizenship is a separate issue.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:27PM (#13509471)
Further, it appears that after a year your green card is by statute no longer valid for reentry into the country. You don't lose the green card, but your reentry has to be special-cased by CBP or a consulate.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:36PM (#13509050)
The most effective action tech companies can take is to pour rivers of money into immigrant advocacy and legal aid organizations, and to make sure their CEOs speak out loudly, right now.

Banners don't matter. Net neutrality mattered in October, doesn't really matter now. Get your head straight.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by DanBC on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:00PM (#13509260)
I suck at slogans, but...

"You like this service? Our founder came to the US in 19XX"

"You enjoy this website? Here's a list of 2nd generation immigrants on our executive board"

...might get people to realise how much of the US economy is driven by 1st & 2nd generation immigrants.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by foodFor1234 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:49PM (#13509611)
That won't help change attutiudes. It will reinforce existing attitudes.

"See! Immigration is good. These immigrants and their kids are building services!"

"See! Immigrants are hiring other immigrants and their children to provide lower cost labor and networking out-of-country and locking us out of the market."

If you want to change, you need a slogan like

"American made, American owned, American labor." along with the (now disappearing) attitude that American is not an ethnicity, it is a lifestyle.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by downandout on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:43PM (#13509115)
I am not sure that legal aid/advocacy will help those affected here. The President has wide latitude to make immigration decisions. Love it or hate it, the new policy is what it is and the courts are likely not in a legal position to be able to overturn or make an end-run around it, regardless of how compelling the argument in a given case is. Encouraging new and timely legislation is much more likely to be effective if you are opposed to this executive order.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:48PM (#13509169)
It helps in three really important ways:

1) You don't have the right to counsel in immigration hearings. There are several organizations that provide free legal aid.

2) Immigrant communities are scared and need to know their rights, and have a trusted source of information. There are unfortunately a ton of scammers who prey on scared people.

3) These organizations are a helpful intermediary between vulnerable people and government agencies, police, etc.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by abecedarius on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:43PM (#13509111)
I'm also unsure about protest banners, but on the general theme of holding your fire, "this is exactly how big companies lose against startups. They wait around to see what the startup will do, and by the time they have figured out that it’s important it is too late to catch up. This is why Andy Grove’s motto at Intel was “Only the paranoid survive.” So working with startups has taught me: don’t wait until it is too late. Protest early and often. We wouldn’t even be here if people hadn’t grossly underestimated Trump to begin with." (From Albert Wengler earlier this week, http://continuations.com/post/156262260395/what-i-learned-fr...)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Haegin on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:17PM (#13509405)
Tech companies can also leave the states. Taking the amount of tax revenue they pay abroad will make a much stronger point than adding some banners, and that's before you factor in the deskilling of somewhere like the bay area if the tech companies leave.

Of course, too many of the mostly white male tech company founders and investors are hoping to benefit from things like reduced corporate taxes to care about discrimination that doesn't affect them.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by willstrafach on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:59PM (#13509674)
This is not true. The US taxes worldwide income regardless of country.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by seanmcdirmid on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:31PM (#13509882)
True. But country of residence gets first dibs, and you get a credit for taxes paid abroad.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Haegin on Sunday January 29, 2017 @10:07PM (#13518358)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that crazy rule. That doesn't apply to corporate taxes though right?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tadasv on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:20PM (#13508268)
Only small companies can take a public stance and they won't for numerous reasons. No large company will ever take a political stance like this. There's too much at stake. I've been saying this for a long time. US is a capitalist country, it does not matter that it's been built by immigrants.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:23PM (#13508309)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by gcp on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:24PM (#13508958)
Uh, I'd hope any large enough company in the USA (who's likely to have affected employees) sent out a similar message. They literally risk having personnel that was away on business travel get stuck outside the USA with nowhere to go.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cridenour on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:24PM (#13508322)
Plenty of large companies took a stance against NC. While this is a larger stance, you may still see it.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:17PM (#13508225)
I think those are the people he wants to ultimately affect, but it's important to remember that attracting and retaining the best talent is one of the main things on the mind of the CEOs of top tech companies. Hearing from employees of prospective employees about the importance of this absolutely will impact their thinking.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by barrkel on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:26PM (#13508350)
Brexit re-demonstrated that business interests are ultimately secondary to politics, populist politics especially.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by gaius on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:32PM (#13508411)
Populist is just what the losing side calls democracy.

See also elitism vs meritocracy.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by Locke1689 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:55PM (#13508654)
The difference between populism and democracy is that populists always claim to speak "for the people" even if the people are divided. They'll even take action against the majority and simply claim that all the "real" people are for it.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by barrkel on Monday January 30, 2017 @04:41AM (#13519717)
Democracy isn't rule of the majority; that's tyranny of the majority.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by beejiu on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:47PM (#13509157)
That is how it should be in principle. In this case, the problem is not the political system, it is the politics.

(In other words, you get what you vote for.)

Re:Time to Take a Stand by catawbasam on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:25PM (#13509451)
Except I didn't. Neither did a majority of my fellow voters.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by zo1 on Sunday January 29, 2017 @02:34AM (#13512841)
Then secede? Have a majority referendum in your respective states about it and tell us how it goes. Either that or admit that part of being part of the union is agreeing with the electoral college and the outcomes that arise from it.

As much as I think that the majority Democrat States should suck it up about losing the election, I also think it's fully within their rights to secede if their populace wishes.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by beejiu on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:50PM (#13509621)
I am specifically referring to the Brexit referendum, where the majority of voters did vote in favor.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by hedora on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:03PM (#13509711)
Since this is HN, and, frankly, this audience is bay area centric, lobbying California to push back early and often might help.

Many of us live in "sanctuary cities" with local governments that plan to stand up to Trump's immigration policies anyway.

Strong business support here could easily inspire action by Sacramento and our congress critters.

Action now will matter a lot more than after the feds broaden their target.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by codecamper on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:52PM (#13510020)
I fully support Sam's idea.

Trump's power comes from the idea that he'll improve the economy. After this week, it should be clear that he'll do no such thing & maybe quite the opposite. Trump is too incoherent & impulsive.

He blames economic problems on the Chinese & Mexicans. Meanwhile, he ignores the role robots & Amazon will have in job destruction.

Corporate leaders can simply tell him to get lost when he sends a stupid tweet. With this he'll quickly lose his support base.

It'll be tough though. He is promising corporate america a big tax break which will instantly boost valuations (already has), giving CEOs nice bonuses & stock paydays.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:41PM (#13510398)
What Altman doesn't need to worry about is the blowback and boycotting that occurs when actual CEOs speak out.

They know what he refuses to admit: that a non-vocal majority of this country strongly supports the President and will NOT support anyone who publicly smites him.

Attacking the President as a normal consumer goods CEO is a losing proposition.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by hedora on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:51PM (#13510466)
That is what North Carolina thought. Major companies pressuring the government helps shift people's opinions on what is acceptable in modern society.

Even if you don't care about doing the right thing, losing some business from a (shrinking) minority of Americans is probably worth the positive publicity overseas, economic stability, retaining visa-holding employees, etc.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by mattieuga on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:06PM (#13510584)
/s/majority/almost half
[dead]
Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:21PM (#13510681)
Unless you have solid evidence for this, please don't sow seeds of doubt regarding the integrity of the voting process.

Edit: s/election/voting/

The election includes the whole primary system and the electoral college. Here I specifically mean the vote.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:27PM (#13510712)
Detroit is just one city (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/re...). How many others are there?

That's plenty for the seeds of doubt, especially given how easy it is to vote in several states.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:37PM (#13510773)
Thanks for the link. The initial results there are definitely problematic. If I'm reading the article correctly, they're expected to run a full audit to see if the results are confirmed, correct?

I'm particularly interested in what types of machines and other voting procedures were in use there. It looks like they're optical scan machines, so hopefully they have the paper ballots on hand to do a proper audit. That, along with the voter rolls, should be able to determine what the issues were. That's a strength of using the optical machines as opposed to the purely electronic ones.

You're right that Detroit is just one city. It's also a city that's deeply troubled on many levels, so I'm not sure if it's fair to consider it typical. That's by no means excusing what look to be issues there. Those should definitely be looked into, and exhaustively. You're claim above is that there were enough fraudulent votes that Trump would have over 50% of the popular vote if they were removed. Detroit alone isn't enough to do this.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @08:05PM (#13510947)
> I'm particularly interested in what types of machines

More important is to look at who's got owning shares in those machines.....

In the perfect world, we'd have open source machines that all enter voites into a public blockchain/ledger and you'd get a private key you could verify your vote with. Optical sounds awesome. But good luck with that. The fraud just seems to swing back and forth from left to right every X years instead. It's madness.

My claim is just a bet right now. But it's one I'm willing to put money on IF they actually do a national investigation, which I'm not confident will happen.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @08:08PM (#13510970)
Going back to my original comment, widespread faith that the voting process is safe is just as important as whether it actually is. Casting doubt on the process without really solid evidence undermines this faith. By no means do I want to be Pollyannaish about this: it's too important. Which is why I want to see improvements in the voting process.

If voting integrity is something you feel particularly strongly about (I certainly do), I encourage to look into the work that's already out there. The 2000 election spurred a lot of research. Some good starting points are:

Ronald L. Rivest MIT

Auditability and Verifiability of Elections

ACM-IEEE talk March 16, 2016

https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/Riv16x.pdf

---

Ben Adida Google Tech Talks December 19, 2007

Theory and Practice of Cryptography: Verifying Electiosns with Cryptography

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s

Re:Time to Take a Stand by DanBC on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:56PM (#13509233)
It would be useful for successful for the tech companies start by 1st or 2nd generation immigrants to speak up.

I think the list includes (but I could be wrong):

Apple

Google

Facebook

Amazon

Oracle

IBM

Uber

Yahoo

EMC

eBay

AT&T

Tesla

Reddit

And, of course, ycombinator.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by sparkzilla on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:27PM (#13510284)
--->Legal immigrants
Re:Time to Take a Stand by emiliobumachar on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:46PM (#13510436)
The executive order we're all talking about directly affects only legal immigrants, doesn't it?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by mattieuga on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:08PM (#13510595)
Pretty sure Elon wasn't a legal immigrant when he started Zip2.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by CydeWeys on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:31PM (#13510315)
There's not a lot of illegal immigrants in any sector save for low wage agricultural and services (e.g. kitchens). Certainly not in tech. This distinction isn't needed.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:08PM (#13508804)
Run for office. Since it's hard to get up the gumption to run yourself (everyone here knows what imposter syndrome feels like), convince friends to run.

Don't limit yourself to Congressional races. Those are incredibly hard to win, especially for political outsiders. Run for parks commission, for library board, for school board, for town trusteeships, and for county offices. Run for water reclamation. You don't need to be a subject matter expert --- that's not expected of you. You just have to be willing to do a little extra work every month.

Any elected office gives you a greater voice in all of the rest of our politics. You use local offices to put pressure on your congresspeople and your state reps, and to build an organization to win more offices later.

This is what the Republicans have been doing since the 1980s, and as a result the GOP controls most US states.

Another fantastic place to start:

https://www.indivisibleguide.com/

Re:Time to Take a Stand by spenczar5 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:26PM (#13510280)
This sounds really appealing. How do you do this? How do I get started on running for water reclamation?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:31PM (#13510318)
Try starting here:

https://www.runforoffice.org/

Get a couple of friends together, and just pick one of you to go out for something, and then work as a team to collect information and plan outreach.

Even if you fail, treat the whole thing as an information gathering exercise. Take notes and share them. The GOP is crazy good at picking up local elected office, and they've had lots of practice. This is how they got that practice. Anyone who thinks local office doesn't matter should figure out who their State Senator is and how many constituents they have, and then look at Congressional redistricting --- it's state leg. that created the system in which rural Republican votes count so much more than urban Democratic votes do.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by anigbrowl on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:04PM (#13508097)
Because people are already deluged with reminders on how to participate in the political process, and also because it's apparent that the political process is in fact badly broken and corrupted, and is not so inherently self-correcting that it inhibits bad actors.

Allow me to suggest that you read and internalize this essay, because it is one of the few accurate summaries of out political reality that I've encountered in the past year.

https://medium.com/deep-code/situational-assessment-2017-tru...

I am nt arguing that politics is over and there's nothing that can be done any more, in fact I'm going to a city budgeting meeting in a couple of hours to find out/debate what to do about the imminent disappearance of federal funding. But your points about basic civics are redundant, I seriously doubt there's anyone reading or posting here who doesn't already know that.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by severine on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:03PM (#13508736)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by anigbrowl on Saturday January 28, 2017 @09:01PM (#13511297)
Not until now, but I happen to be knowledgeable enough about immigration law that it's no big surprise to me. My primary worry is that because the executive branch does have extremely broad discretion over immigration enforcement and the scope of judicial review is somewhat limited, by law, the administration will be able to do enough damage on its own initiative that by the time disputes work their way through the courts the issue will be moot, as court proceedings are overtaken by facts.

Put another way, it's real hard to bring someone to justice for arson when you're inside the burning building. It might happen later, but in the short term that does little to remediate the risk to your life and property.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by welder on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:51PM (#13510855)
Second this, I call my reps offices but get a "this mailbox is full" message.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:02PM (#13508088)
How effective is calling local congress members if you live in an area with a strong progressive majority such as the Bay Area. Not that we shouldn't voice our option to our represented officials but I suspect in some ways it's redundant whereas things like raising money for national organizations may be more impactful.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by bratsche on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:12PM (#13508174)
It feels like it's not very effective, but that may be because there needs more weight of numbers behind it. If you're in a progressive area like the Bay area I can see how it would just add extra load to officials who may not need further persuading.

I'm in Texas though. A very red state. I've been calling my representative and senators to voice my opinion on all this stuff, but it's hard to tell how effective it is. I either get someone on the phone who sounds like, "oh geez, another angry liberal" or I have someone who just sounds like they'll add my name to a tally or something and says "I'll pass it along" and it's hard to know if they will or if that will help. And then I call my state senator to oppose the bathroom bill going through the Texas senate and the person who I'm talking to on the phone gets borderline combative with me.

I found a group of local people who are trying to do this in a more organized way. I found this[1] the other day and it makes me feel hopeful that our efforts are helping somewhat. We just need to not lose steam. It's easy to get fatigued by this kind of stuff, and we're only a week in.

[1] http://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2017/01/26/cruz-...

Re:Time to Take a Stand by protomyth on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:04PM (#13508757)
> I have someone who just sounds like they'll add my name to a tally or something and says "I'll pass it along" and it's hard to know if they will or if that will help.

That is exactly what you are going for. They keep a tally on a lot of issues. Unless you are a big employer or influential player in your district, you are not going to get to speak to the Rep or even his/her senior staff.

Unions and some Orgs know that you have thousands of people call your Rep and voice an opinion. Call, fax, or send a letter. Show up to the district office and be nice, deliver your opinion, and hand them a letter.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#13508205)
Yeah it's interesting how it can go the other way if you're in a solidly conservative district too (I used to live in austin ehich thanks to some ridiculous gerrymandering has very conservative congressional representation). Thanks for calling even if you aren't convinced they'all listen though, I think it's important to try and change minds and that's the place to start.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cderwin on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:43PM (#13508525)
I wonder how much calling actually matters, because I feel like whether they receive 10 calls or 10,000, it's always going to be one-sided. Conservatives aren't going to call their reps and they don't have the propensity to engage in the same activism as progressives, so I would think representatives would take calls with a relative grain of salt. If a very conservative congressperson starts getting a bunch of calls saying how much the dislike [standard conservative proposal], they've got to think that as much as the people who voted against them don't want [standard conservative proposal], the conservatives who voted them in do.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by astrange on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:05PM (#13508766)
> Conservatives aren't going to call their reps and they don't have the propensity to engage in the same activism as progressives

The last 8 years were driven by the Tea Party doing exactly this. They show up to vote more and practice local politics like everyone should be doing.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by whyileft on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:13PM (#13509373)
It only really works if you are showing them that they are going against what they thought their base wanted. Free trade right now would probably be one where a lot of Republican members of congress would have likely been surprised to learn a year ago that there was a large percentage of their Republican voting constituency that was against free trade.

So yes, if you are a Republican with a Republican representative then calling them to voice your displeasure about Donald Trump's behavior may be beneficial. Otherwise it probably won't do much unless there really is massive numbers.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:34PM (#13509513)
What is completely consistent with Republican policies for decades, however, is tax cuts that overwhelmingly favor the wealthy, while supporting a regressive tax (which is what a tariff is) that will disproportionately impact the poor and working middle class.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:41PM (#13509555)
It's extremely important. The Republican coalition has had outreach programs for years set up to generate floods of calls; my senator, Dick Durbin, had to shut his phones off because of one such effort to push through pro-Israel legislation.

A large number of Democrats have voted to confirm John Kelly, the anti-immigration former general who will now run DHS and enforce Trump's Muslim ban. Almost all of the Democrats supported Mattis for DOJ, because he appears to be the sanest member of the administration's team. A decent sized number even supported Pompeo, a Muslim-alarmist, for CIA.

Coming up soon is Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III for Attorney General. Sessions is by many accounts an unreconstructed white supremacist. But Democrats will support him, because he's also a member of the Senate, and collegiality goes a very long way in the Senate.

Unless the Democratic coalition makes it clear to their representatives that we are holding them accountable for their votes to give consent for confirmation votes, and for their actual confirmation votes, the Democrats will act "strategically", holding back resistance until they're absolutely required to offer it. It doesn't help that the Republican party is almost uniformly conservative and extremely white, while the Democratic party is a coalition of interests that leans but is not firmly planted in liberal tradition.

Even if you're in a liberal state. You have to call. Social media doesn't count. It's very easy to do and if enough people do it, it does make a difference. It's like voting, except that your calls have more influence than your votes.

I cannot recommend highly enough the Indivisible Guide, which is the outcome of a bunch of legislative staffers attempting to reverse-engineer the Tea Party's process from the last 8 years and apply them to Democratic objectives:

https://www.indivisibleguide.com/

It's all actionable stuff.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by baytrailcat on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:21PM (#13508921)
I disagree that this will not be helpful. The old-guard of Democratic Party hails from these hyper liberal areas (Fienstein, Schumer, Pelosi), and based on what we have seen so far, they aren't even showing a slightest hint of resistance to Trump. See the senate democrat's response to Trump nominees for example. Put enough pressure on them, they will at least form a semblance of resistance which can inspire and have real effects.

For a practical example, if people of San Francisco jointly decide that they want Nancy Pelosi to do X, Y and Z (otherwise she will get primaried in 2018), she will have no option but to do that. This is exactly what the Tea Party did (with tremendous help from Koch brothers) in last eight years. They unseated the old leaders and took over the party.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by anarazel on Saturday January 28, 2017 @09:21PM (#13511431)
> The old-guard of Democratic Party hails from these hyper liberal areas (Fienstein, Schumer, Pelosi), and based on what we have seen so far, they aren't even showing a slightest hint of resistance to Trump.

What exactly do you want them to do (serious, not provocative question)? All three have spoken up (in varying volume) about the nastier executive orders / memoranda / proclamations, all three argued against several of the more controversial senate approved cabinet posts.

Nearly all the senate confirmable posts can't be filibustered under the current rules. I'd even call it surprising how many of them haven't yet made it out of the respective committees due to the republican majorities. All that's holding them back seems to be those arcane "collegiality" rules that the senate has, and the reticence of some republican MoC.

Except for filibusterable stuff, the democrats are largely powerless for the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly happy with how Democratic "leadership" is working, but it's far from clear to me what should be done.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:50PM (#13509185)
Wide latitude has been given on cabinet appointments by the senate, historically. And also with a supreme court nominee looming, there's every reason for Democrats to not use their outrage on cabinet nominees where it won't matter anyway.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by baytrailcat on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:21PM (#13509434)
Lol.. history and norms. Norms like releasing your tax returns before running for office? You think we are going to a centrist judge because dems kept their powder dry? Outrage is the only thing left.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by setpatchaddress on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:02PM (#13510088)
You second sentence was the excuse given by Democrats throughout George W. Bush's presidency for every single failure to contain the damage. And they did it every single time, every single violation of the constitution, every single movement-conservative (old-speak for alt-right) Supreme Court pick. The outcome was that newspapers got used to publishing the words "Democrats Capitulate" in headlines. That was great for building the party's brand, as you might imagine.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by pcardh0 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @11:45PM (#13512191)
>This is exactly what the Tea Party did (with tremendous >help from Koch brothers) in last eight years. They >unseated the old leaders and took over the party.

Do you have a link showing where, "they took over the party"? My understanding is that the Tea Party is a minority faction within the GOP.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by baytrailcat on Sunday January 29, 2017 @02:29AM (#13512823)
Check this out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_the_Tea_P...

Pay attention to the 2010 primary races that happened within GOP. There were also some high profile races where the Tea-party/Traditional-GOP split even caused Dems to win some seats (like Christine O'Donnell in Delaware)

After that cycle, mainstream republicans mostly co-opted the movement and the rift wasn't that evident in successive elections.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by burkaman on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:09PM (#13508142)
First, it helps put actual weight behind their words, so they can say "I received 2000 calls about this issue in the past week" or something. Second, members of congress have limited time and limited political capital, so if for example you want them to prioritize stopping the Muslim ban over stopping the border wall, you should let them know. It helps them choose what to focus on, and can also help them recruit other members to help them if they can say "look at the numbers, people really care about this one".
Re:Time to Take a Stand by corysama on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:42PM (#13508517)
Keep in mind, when politicians measure how much people care, the numbers are weighted by how much effort went in to making the statement. So, a unique, hand-typed letter takes a lot of effort and therefore is given a lot of weight. A phone call, less so. A copy-paste letter much less. And, a online petition signature, zero.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:12PM (#13508177)
Fair enough, I do think the quantification argument is sound. I certainly don't mean to discourage anyone from contacting their elected officials, I just want to highlight the fact a lot of us live in areas that are both solidly more progressive and solidly more wealthy than the median county in the us.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by sidlls on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:53PM (#13508634)
There is a "strong progressive majority" in the bay area? I guess if one's calculus is "Democrat == liberal == progressive" that might be true. From my perspective I see a large majority of folks who pay lip service to the social tolerance issue with the most media coverage around election time every two years and who otherwise act like conservatives (especially on economic matters) in most other respects.

Either way calling Congress members is a feel-good thing that takes almost no effort. It's worthless in terms of getting political power and making changes.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by panic on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:10PM (#13508144)
They need to know they have the support to fight in the strongest way possible. Dianne Feinstein, for example, has voted in favor of every Trump appointee so far.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:56PM (#13509231)
I think it's short sighted; the administration is throwing a bunch of grenades up in the air counting on distraction and wearing people out. The reality is the easiest way to have flicked off this booger was the election, and that's over. Dealing with it is much harder, much more expensive. So you have to triage which battles you're going to fight, and how. Don't count on the replacement appointees being any better, and don't count on multiple rejections in a row (it never happens, and not because they become more politically agreeable), because literally there's another important item that will be on the agenda and getting sucked into a cabinet nominee black hole is not a hill worth dying on.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by panic on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:05PM (#13509725)
It's not like there's some sort of fuel that is exhausted by voting "no" on Trump's appointees. We will only get worn out if we let ourselves.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by huac on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:05PM (#13508105)
Your congressional representatives voted for Trump's nominees. Remind them who they work for.

Edit: misread 'local congress' vs 'US congress' but I think the point still stands.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by falcolas on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:08PM (#13508135)
Only a little sarcastically:

> Remind them who they work for.

The lobbyists who pay for their luxuries today, and secure their employment tomorrow?

Re:Time to Take a Stand by a3n on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:18PM (#13508243)
This is true, but they still have to jump through the election hoop.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:53PM (#13510023)
They just did. The only thing that will worry them is if those that did elect them are abandoning them.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cadlin on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:43PM (#13509967)
I live in Virginia. Both of my senators are Democrats, as is my representative. One of them (Mark Warner) has released a statement condemning the executive order, while Tim Kaine and Don Beyer are not. I left voice mail for the latter and wrote an email to the former, as AFAICT he doesn't take phone messages over the weekend.

Trump signed this on Friday because the response against it will be slower. Sure, a public statement by Democrats won't stop this, but it won't hurt and what the hell else are they doing? I work on the weekends, and they can too when core American values are under assault.

And of course, giving or raising money for other organizations is a great thing to do as well.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by derrickdirge on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:09PM (#13508139)
It's still helpful if your representatives can say 'I've received n calls from outraged constituents!' There's little reason you couldn't raise money and make a phone call.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by smacktoward on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:17PM (#13508229)
Even if your Representatives (whose focus is entirely on your local community) are already on board, you still have two Senators who have to get elected by the entire state, not just the Bay Area. There are parts of California that are very, very conservative. Call them and remind them that there are parts that aren't too.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by zitterbewegung on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:25PM (#13508330)
Just because you voted in someone doesn't mean that they necessarily know what you want them to legislate. Writing them letters and calling them is one of the most effective ways to do this and this was effective for SOPA.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by a3n on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:17PM (#13508230)
You want to give progressive incumbents the confidence that they are advocating for what their voters want. Positive and negative feedback are equally important. If you like what they're doing, tell them.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by davidw on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:37PM (#13509532)
It's a hell of a lot more likely to have some effect than not calling at all!
Re:Time to Take a Stand by molecule on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:10PM (#13508820)
Support the ACLU, who have already filed a lawsuit

https://www.aclu.org/blog/speak-freely/aclu-and-other-groups...

Re:Time to Take a Stand by davidw on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:19PM (#13509423)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by RivieraKid on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:18PM (#13508240)
Interesting how calling politicians is a "thing" in the US. It seems very inefficient, archaic and unscalable. If I was a politician, I would hate those random (often organized) calls, such a waste of time. The politicians are usually not learning any new information, they know about most issues, including the approximate percentage of the people who are affected.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by lacerta on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:33PM (#13508426)
Well, it is supposed to unscaleable. This is how our house of representatives works! The idea is with-in each state there are districts. Representatives from a district are supposed to represent those people within the district. An exchange trader who lives in NYC probably have very different concerns than a farmer in an small district in Nebraska. It is actually a wonderful system when it works. We have grown as a nation so our number of people per representative has grown enormously since the start (we are locked by law at 435). One concern we all have in the states is, when does an individuals voice become too diluted!
Re:Time to Take a Stand by normaljoe on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:05PM (#13508765)
The limit law is something congress enacted. The Constitution has a much higher limit based on population. Granted I don't think the house could function with over 10K members but then again it would make gerrymandering impossible.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by __derek__ on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:23PM (#13509445)
It's not as though it functions well now. At least with that many members it would not-function in ways that more frequently benefited areas where people actually live.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by notduncansmith on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:00PM (#13510539)
With some technological assistance, it seems like a group of 10,000 representatives would actually be robust to many of the problems with the current smaller group.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Frondo on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:31PM (#13509005)
You know who really needs to take a fucking stand?

The low-level workers at these airports who are enforcing this bullshit ban. They need to grow some spines and start ignoring bad orders, no matter who they come from.

"I was just following orders" was never an acceptable excuse to do the wrong thing.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by thex10 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:45PM (#13509126)
I agree, but they often are the ones who have the most to lose. They lose their job and then aren't able to pay rent that month/feed their family etc.

A VP or probably even a middle manager taking a similar stand likely has cash saved up/secondary income/investments/other options to withstand this sort of change with fewer catastrophic results.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by davidw on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:20PM (#13509432)
Maybe Sam Altman, Chris Sacca and the like should put together a fund to help people who will not "just follow orders".
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Frondo on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:41PM (#13509560)
You know who might have more to lose? The people with green cards, the refugees, the people from that list of 7 countries, kept out of the US for bullshit reasons.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by refurb on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:45PM (#13509132)
How do you know they aren't already doing it? From what I've read, the Executive Order was somewhat vague. Border officials do have some discretion.

Maybe they are strictly interpreting it in order to cause an outrage?

Re:Time to Take a Stand by SBCRec on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:51PM (#13509625)
Just offering the possibility that some of the workers actually agree with it? That their spine is perfectly intact?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by megablast on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:50PM (#13509619)
So not you. Someone else. Well, that's easy then... For you.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by padseeker on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:18PM (#13508241)
While I appreciate the sentiment for a call to action, it seems pretty clear that the people who are pushing this agenda don't care about what other people think. The people who are pushing this agenda lost the popular vote but that has not stopped them. Many of these reps supporting these actions are in districts that are gerrymandered to insulate themselves from anyone that disagrees with them on this kind of action.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by guildwriter on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:33PM (#13509902)
Not exactly true, here's a post on the subject from Instapundit, the largest conservative blog on the net:

WELL, THIS IS STUPID: DHS Spox: Trump Muslim Ban Includes Green Card Holders. It’s fine to be more careful about admitting people from countries that are major terror exporters, but Green Card holders are permanent legal residents — they’re not “admitted,” they’re returning home. If there’s a problem with green card grants to people from those countries, it needs to be addressed systematically, not simply by stopping people at the border. This is a debacle, and I’d be very interested in knowing who actually drafted the order.

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/255787/#respond

I think you'll be surprised at what people think on this issue who support the temporary ban.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by eruditely on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:20PM (#13509819)
They won 96.1% of all precints. 30% of people within our state voted for him as well, many more would have voted if it wasn't a lost cause in California.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cryoshon on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:02PM (#13508735)
>the people who are pushing this agenda don't care about what other people think

they only care about their agenda. to make them care about what people think, disrupt their agenda.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by rayiner on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#13508206)
For an emergency thing like this, direct pressure from affected tech companies is going to be the most effective thing. Letters to Congressmen from tech CEOs and the like.

For people who are not tech CEOs, financially supporting legal challenges is probably the highest value near-term approach, though the other stuff is important long term.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:51PM (#13509191)
Right now the most important thing you can do is donate money.

Consider starting here:

ACLU (state offices especially) Council on American-Islamic Relations (state offices especially) National Immigration Law Center

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cpr on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:46PM (#13509588)
Investigate CAIR before giving any money:

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/AntiCAIRDataBase.html

Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @10:21PM (#13511771)
I can personally vouch for CAIR-MA, CAIR-CA, and CAIR-NY.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacobian on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:02PM (#13509289)
Can you expand on why donating to state offices is more effective? And, which states?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:13PM (#13509374)
The state organizations have separate budgets, and they do the direct work with affected people.

For example, CAIR-MA serves all of New England on less than a quarter million dollars a year.

Any state, but particularly red states. Consider CAIR-Oklahoma.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by WhitneyLand on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:34PM (#13508433)
>Why is that all of these posts saying to "take a stand" fail to explain the political process?

Because most everyone here already knows these things.

And because the implication that it would be a useful strategy to keep reiterating basic principles seems reductionist.

This whole thing is a complex phenomenon that even experts are still trying to figure out. How was the sentiment or 27% of voters underestimated so badly and for so long? Even if the sentiment is now understood why did it bring about a post truth era and why do so many people easily accept this? And on and on.

Something is different this time. We need to understand it fundamentally and learn new approaches to counter it while making sure the responses themselves don't make the situation worse.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by fullshark on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:41PM (#13508502)
I don't think most people actually do know these things, or necessarily have the motivation to follow through on them. I think most of these blog posts are about self-expression and venting frustration more than anything else.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jMyles on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:13PM (#13508182)
These items seem to be the very things that have sapped our strength without any measurable impact.

We need to find more direct ways to peacefully withdraw our consent of and participation in the existence of the state.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by krapp on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:37PM (#13509923)
>We need to find more direct ways to peacefully withdraw our consent of and participation in the existence of the state.

That's all well and good if you're an anarchist, but not everyone who objects to Trump also objects to the existence of the state, per se.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by zo1 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:14PM (#13508868)
Libertarians et al have been trying to do this for quite some time. It does not work. The entire thing is set up so that you can't withdraw your consent or participation. Fines or jail will ensue.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by hackerews on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:20PM (#13508263)
How in 2017 is "calling a politician" the best way to stop an executive action?

Is the goal to DDOS these offices with phone calls in hopes these politicians will rile together and pass a law?

Re:Time to Take a Stand by lisper on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:23PM (#13508304)
Yes, pretty much. If enough people call to object then the prospect of losing the next election becomes real; they figure that if people are motivated enough to call then they might just be motivated enough to vote. That more than anything is what motivates politicians.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by ada1981 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:13PM (#13508851)
Faxes are actually the most noticeable and effective tactic.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by arundelo on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:16PM (#13553557)
Unfortunately I can't find a source for this but I saw someone saying recently (and it makes sense) that a lot of congress fax numbers just convert the fax to an email message rather than physically printing it out.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by lisper on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:30PM (#13509001)
What's a fax? ;-)

Seriously though, how do you know this?

Re:Time to Take a Stand by CydeWeys on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:38PM (#13510369)
It's not correct. It's easy to ignore faxes, and throw them away by the bucket-full without ever reading them. A phone call requires spending some low level staffer's time to listen to you. Getting inundated day-in, day-out by callers, all on one side of an issue, does have some effect on a congressperson's staff, and sometimes, the congressperson's actions.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by a3n on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:15PM (#13508204)
If you oppose Trump and the right's regressive goals, then to condense this list down: take over state legislatures and governors, by running, supporting, or voting for progressive people. The Republicans learned years ago that state legislatures are the key to regressive state policies, and to helping keep a regressive majority in Congress.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by smallgovt on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:07PM (#13508118)
Because this post is primary targeting CEO's and other primary influencers in the tech community. For that audience, speaking publicly and positioning your organization in the suggested manner are much more effective and practical actions to take than those you listed.

For those who aren't in positions of such influence, yes, your list is the right way to go

Re:Time to Take a Stand by hedora on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:44PM (#13510425)
Sample script for calling your mayor; anyone near an international airport should be able to use a variant of this.

I am not a lawyer, but it looks as though airports (but not airport security) fall under the city's jurisdiction. (For example San Jose makes decisions about Uber at SJC, and Mayor Daley infamously tore up an air strip in the middle of the night with no warning).

Hello. My name is X. I am a resident of Y. Please do everything within your power to push for the release of any middle eastern refugees being held without cause by the Federal government at [local airport], and to put an end to this moving forward.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by mindcrime on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:31PM (#13508393)
7. Join a political party (I'd suggest the Libertarian Party, but whatever floats your boat)

8. Donate money to said party and to candidates in upcoming elections.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by CalChris on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:42PM (#13509103)
The last three Libertarian candidates for President are:

  2016 former Republican Governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson
  2012 former Republican Governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson
  2008 former GOP House member and Clinton prosecutor Bobb Barr
Gary Johnson ran as both a Republican and a Libertarian in 2008. Republican Ron Paul has run as a Libertarian.

On the evidence, the Libertarian Party is a flag of convenience for Republicans.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by splat on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:48PM (#13510449)
I think your point here is a little disingenuous. (For reference I'm a longtime LP party member and have recently been getting very involved in the LP at the local level.) While it's true that the recent presidential nominees have all been former Republicans, the reason for this is that the Party has been wanting to put up respectable candidates who have experience. In its early years, the LP was effectively just an outreach organization aimed at spreading the libertarian message. But these days the LP has been wanting to become a real political party that gets candidates elected. And in order to get candidates elected, we need to have respectable candidates.

In local races it's fine to put up someone with no or little experience in government, as long as they are a respected member of the community. But you can't just put up "some dude" for president. So in practice this means we have to take defectors. But heaven knows there has been a lot of consternation in the LP over this. My guess is that the LP is getting tired enough of taking former Republicans that whoever they nominate in 2020 will be homegrown. (Maybe a former Democrat.)

But while the presidential race gets the most press, we've been working hard to get Libertarians elected at lower levels of government. It's just really, really hard to break past the two party mindset (and ballot access laws), and we haven't had a lot of success to date. The difficulties we have getting people elected to the lower levels of translate directly to us nominating former Republicans for president.

[dead]
Re:Time to Take a Stand by dang on Sunday January 29, 2017 @01:43PM (#13515809)
> You think I'm being a little disingenuous? I think you're being a LOT disingenuous.

Please don't be uncivil in comments here, regardless of how wrong someone else's comment may be. This sort of personal abrasiveness is destructive and leads to worse.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by mindcrime on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:58PM (#13509244)
Whatever. My point has nothing to do with the LP. The point is that joining a party and donating money are some of the most effective strategies for pushing change. If you don't like the LP, due to ideology, strategy, both, or something else, then pick your own poison - even if it's one of the "major" parties.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by CalChris on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:13PM (#13508187)
If you are going to contact your House and Senate representatives, you should do this at the local level.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by ridgeguy on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:57PM (#13510514)
I'll add:

7. Contribute money to organizations filing lawsuits against Trump's actions.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cryoshon on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:01PM (#13508725)
the only actions that matter at this point are going to be protests in which you bring thousands or millions of your friends and shut down economic activity in urban centers.

the democrats are a minority, and so they can't effect political change. the republicans are on board with trump, and so they won't effect political change.

that means that you have to effect political change by physically preventing the operation of the country to move forward until your demands are met.

you can't do this from your computer chair or your couch.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by thilmo on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:11PM (#13508827)
How about the best way:

7. THINK

Think up better arguments, that might convince people. Examine your own opinions, to see whether they're actually right. Examine your opponents' opinions, to see whether they're right too. Maybe come up with new ways of thinking about the issue which are better than the way anyone's thinking about them at the moment. And then start talking.

People in politics should put less thought into HOW CAN I SPEAK LOUDER and more thought into how they can think of smarter things to say?

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:18PM (#13509409)
I'd say evaluate the actual target audience for this conversation, and choose to not engage an audience that clearly has no interest in anything other than what amounts to tribal warfare.

And that includes the president smearing every source of criticism as "FAKE NEWS!" He exactly represents those who voted for him: ignorant, fearful, angry, reactionary, conspiracy theorists, suspicious and vindictive. There is no possible way of having rational conversations whether smarter or louder. I don't see any point in examining these opinions, it's a colossal waste of time. I'm not responsible for their opinions, or changing them. I think a very decent chunk will have buyer's (voter's) remorse on their own without me having to say a thing about it, and the rest will just dig their heels in.

Ergo, Trump and Trump voters are a distraction. Focus on the effecting policies: non-violent demonstrations and associations, legal recourse, letting local and state reps know how you feel. There are mayors like Marty Walsh who historically have done more to stand up to overreaching state and federal bureaucracy than any U.S. Senator.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by guildwriter on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:45PM (#13509584)
You do realize this sort of behavior doesn't grow in a vacuum right? In a relationship it takes two to tango, unless dealing with someone mentally ill. To claim that say 10 million voters who hold resentment against the left for what they perceive as hostile bias are all mentally ill is grossly unfair.

Conservative resentment against what they perceive as liberal intolerance has been going on since at least the early 2000s. The conservative blogosphere really took off around that time. There they either endured constant ridicule for their views or total ignoring from the established media which mostly runs liberal aside from Fox News. When they broke the story on Dan Rather and the faked National Guard memo on Bush, they were instantly derided for being nothing but people blogging in their pajamas. When they were proven true, the hostile indifference never let up. This has gone on for 15 years or so now. For them, this last election to them was the last straw. The coverage that went on during the 2016 elections was deeply shameful and outright scurrilous in some areas.

Keep in mind that during the 2000s and probably about until 2008 or so, the internet community sites were mostly dominated by liberal views. Reddit for instance looked vastly different compared to now. This allowed the formation of deep and entrenched echo chambers that allowed certain behaviors to foment and become acceptable. When conservatives began to join the internet en masse, they ran up against these entrenched social communities and quickly found that they were getting shut out. Rightly or wrongly, that kind of blanket treatment will cause resentment.

Vast swaths of people on the left have been dismissive of people on the right for ages. This is not a one sided issue, of course conservatives do the same. But that does not matter. We got here because everyone started talking past each other, insulting each other, and not doing the hard work of emphasizing irregardless of our agreement or not. Emotional labor matters and we've all dropped the ball hard. Conservatives are not monolithic and people always appreciate feeling listened to and that their concerns matter. You don't have to agree with someone to do this.

When we want to fix a relationship with our partners we don't concern ourselves with who was right or wrong. We concentrate on the relationship itself.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:14PM (#13509787)
I agree with the premise that there is an insufficiently mature dialog, and engagement across the political spectrum.

But there's been, provably more dismissiveness and ensuing divisiveness within the conservative movement, which is where "Republicans eat their own" came frome. The explicit targeting by far right conservatives to destroy moderate Republicans in elections is not something that is at all common in the Democratic party. It was refined to great success by the Tea Party movement.

Smug liberalism is not at all the same kind of nefarious strategy the far right has used. Smug liberalism is a naive position that if only conservatives had the facts, they'd become liberals/progressives/Democrats or at the very least revert back to being moderate Republicans. It isn't intended to piss people off, even though that has been the outcome.

The political landscape is sufficiently damaged now that there is likely a significant and intractable minority who believe in a different reality where liberals are out to get them; that corporations and billionaires are out to screw them by hiring "illegals" (except for Trump's hand selected billionaires, they're the good ones); and that import tariffs are paid by foreigners. Damaged by the likes of Newsmax, Infowars, and Breitbart (previously run by now Chief Strategist and Senior Counselor to the U.S. president) are all far right sites trafficking in varying degrees of mistruth. These are not policy disputes, these are disputes over facts.

I do not think there is any fixable relationship when two sides are disagreeing on world view: how the world works, how it should work. They are mutually incompatible right now, and the thing to be negotiating is the outcome of losing arguments, which hopefully remain non-violent. The language of name calling and violence is destabilizing whether it is a one on one relationship, or directed at countries. The president is openly combative with everyone who disagrees with him. It'll be deeply fascinating to see how things go when those disagreements happen with people he's hand selected - which is why I think it's important senators support pretty much all of his cabinet selections, at least all of them are completely sane.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by cmurf on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:38PM (#13509934)
Actually I missed one: selfish. There are probably quite a fair number of Trump voters who are not any of the other things I listed, but were voting for lower taxes/regulation; and dismissed all of his other policy promises including some kind of Muslim ban.

On the plus side, many ill conceived or implemented policies last week were walked back. So it's not like the administration is completely intractable in the face of outcry.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by evo_9 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:24PM (#13508319)