News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by methehack on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:07PM (#13508116)
I think Mr. Altman is largely addressing tech CEOs here and urging them to make public statements. The actions you list are great for you and me, but he's mostly not really talking to us.

Supporting quotations from the post (because evidence): "The tech community is powerful. Large tech companies in particular have enormous power and are held in high regard. We need to hear from the CEOs clearly and unequivocally"

"At a minimum, companies should take a public stance."

Re:Time to Take a Stand by guelo on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:23PM (#13508307)
The most effective action tech companies can take is what they did against SOPA: post large protest banners on popular websites. Though I don't think this is the right time to take that step. There are many outrages ahead, many will be directly related to tech, like killing net neutrality, forcing tech companies to compile Muslim registries, banning tech worker and student visas, and who knows what else. I think tech companies should reserve their fire for the many battles to come. Many different parts of society will be involved in these fights, it's not only up to tech communities to fight every battle.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:27PM (#13508976)
Don't post banners about the US refusing reentry to Green Card holders who are the spouses of American citizens, or who fought alongside our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, because that might dilute our protests against net neutrality?

After a period of 6-12 months outside the country, US Green Card holders lose their Green Cards.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by pvg on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:08PM (#13509336)
After a period of 6-12 months outside the country, US Green Card holders lose their Green Cards.

In a time of grave concern for many green card holders, it's probably better to avoid this sort of inaccurate info. It's freakout time but let's stick to freaking out about true things.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:14PM (#13509386)
Could you please true up the information?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by pvg on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:37PM (#13509536)
I'm no immigration lawyer - just a greencard holder who's been through a couple of adventures in the process. There's a decent summary here:

http://lawandborder.com/risk-abandoning-green-card-abroad-6-...

Key things: 6 months absence can be a factor in challenging your status as a Lawful Permanent Resident. 12 months absence means your green card (the actual document) is no longer valid for re-entry but it doesn't automatically make you a non-LPR.

Customs and Border Patrol can deny you entry, as we've just seen, on the basis executive action, legally questionable or not. But they can't take away your LPR status - only an order from an immigration court judge can do that.

A lot of this is cold comfort to any LPR caught up in this and unable to re-enter right now - but there is a process and the status itself is not so trivial to take away. The call to help organizations who provide legal aid to such people (and refugees and other visa holders) seems like the right thing to me, it's probably the most immediate need.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:43PM (#13509573)
You're right, even as I wrote the original comment I knew in the back of my head that "lose their green card" wasn't the right way to put it; I just wrote carelessly. Thanks!
Re:Time to Take a Stand by jacquesm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:25PM (#13509452)
I'll true it up for you, it is actually worse than you describe.

If you are absent > 6 months you could end up with your green card status listed as 'abandoned', but even if you come back every 6 months that is no guarantee at all that it will not be listed abandoned.

The golden rule seems to be to be more than 6 months per year in the USA, preferably substantially more than 6 months to avoid ambiguity.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by vsl on Sunday January 29, 2017 @03:32AM (#13513037)
Green card is for people who want to immigrate into US; US isn't interested in granting citizenship to people living elsewhere (never was), the stated goal is to diversify US population. Given that, such a requirement makes sense - and is very common in immigration procedures around the world.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by slededit on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:48PM (#13536123)
The rules to naturalize are separate and more stringent than the rules to maintain the green card. Talking about granting citizenship is a separate issue.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tptacek on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:27PM (#13509471)
Further, it appears that after a year your green card is by statute no longer valid for reentry into the country. You don't lose the green card, but your reentry has to be special-cased by CBP or a consulate.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:36PM (#13509050)
The most effective action tech companies can take is to pour rivers of money into immigrant advocacy and legal aid organizations, and to make sure their CEOs speak out loudly, right now.

Banners don't matter. Net neutrality mattered in October, doesn't really matter now. Get your head straight.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by DanBC on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:00PM (#13509260)
I suck at slogans, but...

"You like this service? Our founder came to the US in 19XX"

"You enjoy this website? Here's a list of 2nd generation immigrants on our executive board"

...might get people to realise how much of the US economy is driven by 1st & 2nd generation immigrants.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by foodFor1234 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:49PM (#13509611)
That won't help change attutiudes. It will reinforce existing attitudes.

"See! Immigration is good. These immigrants and their kids are building services!"

"See! Immigrants are hiring other immigrants and their children to provide lower cost labor and networking out-of-country and locking us out of the market."

If you want to change, you need a slogan like

"American made, American owned, American labor." along with the (now disappearing) attitude that American is not an ethnicity, it is a lifestyle.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by downandout on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:43PM (#13509115)
I am not sure that legal aid/advocacy will help those affected here. The President has wide latitude to make immigration decisions. Love it or hate it, the new policy is what it is and the courts are likely not in a legal position to be able to overturn or make an end-run around it, regardless of how compelling the argument in a given case is. Encouraging new and timely legislation is much more likely to be effective if you are opposed to this executive order.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by idlewords on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:48PM (#13509169)
It helps in three really important ways:

1) You don't have the right to counsel in immigration hearings. There are several organizations that provide free legal aid.

2) Immigrant communities are scared and need to know their rights, and have a trusted source of information. There are unfortunately a ton of scammers who prey on scared people.

3) These organizations are a helpful intermediary between vulnerable people and government agencies, police, etc.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by abecedarius on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:43PM (#13509111)
I'm also unsure about protest banners, but on the general theme of holding your fire, "this is exactly how big companies lose against startups. They wait around to see what the startup will do, and by the time they have figured out that it’s important it is too late to catch up. This is why Andy Grove’s motto at Intel was “Only the paranoid survive.” So working with startups has taught me: don’t wait until it is too late. Protest early and often. We wouldn’t even be here if people hadn’t grossly underestimated Trump to begin with." (From Albert Wengler earlier this week, http://continuations.com/post/156262260395/what-i-learned-fr...)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Haegin on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:17PM (#13509405)
Tech companies can also leave the states. Taking the amount of tax revenue they pay abroad will make a much stronger point than adding some banners, and that's before you factor in the deskilling of somewhere like the bay area if the tech companies leave.

Of course, too many of the mostly white male tech company founders and investors are hoping to benefit from things like reduced corporate taxes to care about discrimination that doesn't affect them.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by willstrafach on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:59PM (#13509674)
This is not true. The US taxes worldwide income regardless of country.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by seanmcdirmid on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:31PM (#13509882)
True. But country of residence gets first dibs, and you get a credit for taxes paid abroad.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by Haegin on Sunday January 29, 2017 @10:07PM (#13518358)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that crazy rule. That doesn't apply to corporate taxes though right?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by tadasv on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:20PM (#13508268)
Only small companies can take a public stance and they won't for numerous reasons. No large company will ever take a political stance like this. There's too much at stake. I've been saying this for a long time. US is a capitalist country, it does not matter that it's been built by immigrants.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:23PM (#13508309)
Re:Time to Take a Stand by gcp on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:24PM (#13508958)
Uh, I'd hope any large enough company in the USA (who's likely to have affected employees) sent out a similar message. They literally risk having personnel that was away on business travel get stuck outside the USA with nowhere to go.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by cridenour on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:24PM (#13508322)
Plenty of large companies took a stance against NC. While this is a larger stance, you may still see it.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by myblake on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:17PM (#13508225)
I think those are the people he wants to ultimately affect, but it's important to remember that attracting and retaining the best talent is one of the main things on the mind of the CEOs of top tech companies. Hearing from employees of prospective employees about the importance of this absolutely will impact their thinking.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by barrkel on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:26PM (#13508350)
Brexit re-demonstrated that business interests are ultimately secondary to politics, populist politics especially.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by gaius on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:32PM (#13508411)
Populist is just what the losing side calls democracy.

See also elitism vs meritocracy.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by Locke1689 on Saturday January 28, 2017 @02:55PM (#13508654)
The difference between populism and democracy is that populists always claim to speak "for the people" even if the people are divided. They'll even take action against the majority and simply claim that all the "real" people are for it.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by barrkel on Monday January 30, 2017 @04:41AM (#13519717)
Democracy isn't rule of the majority; that's tyranny of the majority.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by beejiu on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:47PM (#13509157)
That is how it should be in principle. In this case, the problem is not the political system, it is the politics.

(In other words, you get what you vote for.)

Re:Time to Take a Stand by catawbasam on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:25PM (#13509451)
Except I didn't. Neither did a majority of my fellow voters.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by zo1 on Sunday January 29, 2017 @02:34AM (#13512841)
Then secede? Have a majority referendum in your respective states about it and tell us how it goes. Either that or admit that part of being part of the union is agreeing with the electoral college and the outcomes that arise from it.

As much as I think that the majority Democrat States should suck it up about losing the election, I also think it's fully within their rights to secede if their populace wishes.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by beejiu on Saturday January 28, 2017 @04:50PM (#13509621)
I am specifically referring to the Brexit referendum, where the majority of voters did vote in favor.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by hedora on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:03PM (#13509711)
Since this is HN, and, frankly, this audience is bay area centric, lobbying California to push back early and often might help.

Many of us live in "sanctuary cities" with local governments that plan to stand up to Trump's immigration policies anyway.

Strong business support here could easily inspire action by Sacramento and our congress critters.

Action now will matter a lot more than after the feds broaden their target.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by codecamper on Saturday January 28, 2017 @05:52PM (#13510020)
I fully support Sam's idea.

Trump's power comes from the idea that he'll improve the economy. After this week, it should be clear that he'll do no such thing & maybe quite the opposite. Trump is too incoherent & impulsive.

He blames economic problems on the Chinese & Mexicans. Meanwhile, he ignores the role robots & Amazon will have in job destruction.

Corporate leaders can simply tell him to get lost when he sends a stupid tweet. With this he'll quickly lose his support base.

It'll be tough though. He is promising corporate america a big tax break which will instantly boost valuations (already has), giving CEOs nice bonuses & stock paydays.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:41PM (#13510398)
What Altman doesn't need to worry about is the blowback and boycotting that occurs when actual CEOs speak out.

They know what he refuses to admit: that a non-vocal majority of this country strongly supports the President and will NOT support anyone who publicly smites him.

Attacking the President as a normal consumer goods CEO is a losing proposition.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by hedora on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:51PM (#13510466)
That is what North Carolina thought. Major companies pressuring the government helps shift people's opinions on what is acceptable in modern society.

Even if you don't care about doing the right thing, losing some business from a (shrinking) minority of Americans is probably worth the positive publicity overseas, economic stability, retaining visa-holding employees, etc.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by mattieuga on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:06PM (#13510584)
/s/majority/almost half
[dead]
Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:21PM (#13510681)
Unless you have solid evidence for this, please don't sow seeds of doubt regarding the integrity of the voting process.

Edit: s/election/voting/

The election includes the whole primary system and the electoral college. Here I specifically mean the vote.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:27PM (#13510712)
Detroit is just one city (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/re...). How many others are there?

That's plenty for the seeds of doubt, especially given how easy it is to vote in several states.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:37PM (#13510773)
Thanks for the link. The initial results there are definitely problematic. If I'm reading the article correctly, they're expected to run a full audit to see if the results are confirmed, correct?

I'm particularly interested in what types of machines and other voting procedures were in use there. It looks like they're optical scan machines, so hopefully they have the paper ballots on hand to do a proper audit. That, along with the voter rolls, should be able to determine what the issues were. That's a strength of using the optical machines as opposed to the purely electronic ones.

You're right that Detroit is just one city. It's also a city that's deeply troubled on many levels, so I'm not sure if it's fair to consider it typical. That's by no means excusing what look to be issues there. Those should definitely be looked into, and exhaustively. You're claim above is that there were enough fraudulent votes that Trump would have over 50% of the popular vote if they were removed. Detroit alone isn't enough to do this.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by MicroBerto on Saturday January 28, 2017 @08:05PM (#13510947)
> I'm particularly interested in what types of machines

More important is to look at who's got owning shares in those machines.....

In the perfect world, we'd have open source machines that all enter voites into a public blockchain/ledger and you'd get a private key you could verify your vote with. Optical sounds awesome. But good luck with that. The fraud just seems to swing back and forth from left to right every X years instead. It's madness.

My claim is just a bet right now. But it's one I'm willing to put money on IF they actually do a national investigation, which I'm not confident will happen.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by grzm on Saturday January 28, 2017 @08:08PM (#13510970)
Going back to my original comment, widespread faith that the voting process is safe is just as important as whether it actually is. Casting doubt on the process without really solid evidence undermines this faith. By no means do I want to be Pollyannaish about this: it's too important. Which is why I want to see improvements in the voting process.

If voting integrity is something you feel particularly strongly about (I certainly do), I encourage to look into the work that's already out there. The 2000 election spurred a lot of research. Some good starting points are:

Ronald L. Rivest MIT

Auditability and Verifiability of Elections

ACM-IEEE talk March 16, 2016

https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/Riv16x.pdf

---

Ben Adida Google Tech Talks December 19, 2007

Theory and Practice of Cryptography: Verifying Electiosns with Cryptography

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s

Re:Time to Take a Stand by DanBC on Saturday January 28, 2017 @03:56PM (#13509233)
It would be useful for successful for the tech companies start by 1st or 2nd generation immigrants to speak up.

I think the list includes (but I could be wrong):

Apple

Google

Facebook

Amazon

Oracle

IBM

Uber

Yahoo

EMC

eBay

AT&T

Tesla

Reddit

And, of course, ycombinator.

Re:Time to Take a Stand by sparkzilla on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:27PM (#13510284)
--->Legal immigrants
Re:Time to Take a Stand by emiliobumachar on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:46PM (#13510436)
The executive order we're all talking about directly affects only legal immigrants, doesn't it?
Re:Time to Take a Stand by mattieuga on Saturday January 28, 2017 @07:08PM (#13510595)
Pretty sure Elon wasn't a legal immigrant when he started Zip2.
Re:Time to Take a Stand by CydeWeys on Saturday January 28, 2017 @06:31PM (#13510315)
There's not a lot of illegal immigrants in any sector save for low wage agricultural and services (e.g. kitchens). Certainly not in tech. This distinction isn't needed.