News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by nkozyra on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:09AM (#12735183)
The conclusion that a drop in readership is proof that moving to the web was a mistake is extraordinarily shallow.

"Readers continue to leave print newspapers, but they’re not migrating to the online editions."

Because they have more options.

Print products were often monopolies, especially in the early to mid 90s, a hey day for newspapers. There was often a single publication per DMA.

What happened then is newspaper readers increasingly became web users throughout the 90s and 00s and left the print product. In 2000, if you wanted semi-local or regional news on the web, you went to ... your newspaper web site! In 2016, you have a plethora of choices, many of them unsaddled by the constraints of a typical newspaper organizational structure (for better or worse). So you have web sites and publications producing/sharing/clickbaiting 10x the content than your local newspaper does. This leads to a spreading of readership.

What's happened is a diaspora. Sticking with the print product over the web would not have prevented this. It may have slowed the decline of print circulation, but I have serious doubts about that. The challenge newspapers have is competing with decidedly non-journalistic approaches to news; ones that give readers what they want even if it isn't done "right." Competing with platforms and sites that can churn out "content" at an unfettered rate means fundamentally changing what a newspaper does.

There's no easy answer - newspapers can accept that people will largely go to other sites to get less reliable information faster, or that their content will be repurposed on other platforms without any compensation. That will likely mean a slow constriction or demise. Alternately, they can compete in that space, which a lot are doing now. That means sacrificing the ideals of journalism.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:06PM (#12739161)
My plumber isn't allowed to call himself a plumber unless he follows the rules for plumbing. Same for my accountant, doctor, electrician, and lock pick.

I get the "free speech" argument, but I still cannot understand why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist.

Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try? Or have we and I'm just uninformed?

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by jdietrich on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:22PM (#12739629)
Where do you draw the line on what constitutes journalism? Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists?

How do you safeguard the political independence of the licensing of journalists? How do you ensure that a future government doesn't abuse the licensing regulations to suppress political criticism?

In the US, how do you reconcile this with the first amendment? How can you justify silencing people because they lack the 'correct' qualifications? If the only restriction is on the title 'journalist', what stops people from calling themselves a blogger while doing exactly the same things that a journalist does?

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:59PM (#12740670)
good questions.

I think the methods applied are what needs accredited, not the results themselves. If an organization calls itself news or whatever nomenclature we agree to, they are claiming to follow accredited guidelines that we collectively trust.

At the end of the day, it comes down to heuristics around trust. It's not the message I want to validate, it's the means of preparation that bother me more. I can draw my own conclusions if I can trust the method.

Looking at it this way, would that resolve some of your concerns? Open auditing and accrediting do not need to involve censorship at all. You never lose the ability to say what you want, just to call yourself a "certified whatever". I dunno.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by rhizome on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:30AM (#12741567)
What is it about journalism that requires standards like plumbers, doctors, and accountants? More to the point, if you look at the reasons why plumbers, doctors, and locksmiths are held to standards, which ones apply to journalism?

Note also that journalism is the only one of your mentioned professions that is specifically called out for protection in the Constitution.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:51AM (#12744876)
> More to the point, if you look at the reasons why plumbers, doctors, and locksmiths are held to standards, which ones apply to journalism?

Which ones don't?

The freedom of the press is the same thing as free speech, it applies to all of us. Correct me if you are referring to something else and I'm misunderstanding.

There are best practices in journalism, no? Disclosure, ethics, etc. How can I know if someone I rely on for information follows these rules. That's all I'm asking.

Doesn't canada do this? Aren't there requirements for calling yourself a news agency?

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by rhizome on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:55PM (#12746625)
Which ones don't?

I contend that none of them do.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @08:16PM (#12748901)
In your opinion, why is it ok to regulate lock pickers? What are the reasons that you think don't apply?
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by GuiA on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @08:21PM (#12739916)
> Are politics bloggers journalists? Are bloggers who occasionally talk about politics journalists? Are people who livetweet a news event that they're involved in acting as journalists?

No. They are respectively a blogger, a blogger, and a Twitter user.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by nercht12 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:56PM (#12740390)
Then what's a "journalist"? Someone who gets paid to go do the research? "Journalist" is derived from "journal" (duh, but important) - bloggers are nothing more than online journalists. The fact that they are called "bloggers" is only because society has elected to stick with the term "blog" for an online journal.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by K_REY_C on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:51PM (#12740370)
And yet if they're at the same event I'm quite likely getting something that, in combination, is much closer to what I'd call journalism.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by pyre on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:33PM (#12740551)
> If the only restriction is on the title 'journalist', what stops people from calling themselves a blogger while doing exactly the same things that a journalist does?

I don't think that anyone would be proposing restricting speech in this way, but on the same note, papers such as Weekly World News maybe couldn't pump out more stories about Bat Boy while attempting to call themselves journalists...

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by rhizome on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:37AM (#12741588)
Do WWN writers call themselves journalists? There's something to be said for what readers call journalism. It isn't the same for everybody. So, is it the journalist's responsibility to hold to a standard, or is it the audience's fault for thinking that a particular writer is a journalist?

This raises the question: can the term "journalist" even be controlled?

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by Esau on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:51AM (#12742420)
It can't.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by 1812calif on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:52PM (#12740373)
Because once your government is the arbiter of "journalism", anyone who disagrees will be marginalized?

Even the threat of it can affect what is / is not covered.

Once the government has significant power over journalism, you end up with Russian state sponsored journalism.

It's not perfect over here, and needs much improvement. Access is contingent on certain rules. It can get much worse.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ChoHag on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @04:14AM (#12742006)
Because once your government is the arbiter of "plumbing", anyone who can squeeze a pipe together but doesn't need to qualify to work with gas will be marginalised (and unemployed)?

Because once your government is the arbiter of "electrician", anyone who thinks the rules are ridiculous (they are frequently way over the top) will be marginalised (and unemployed)?

Because once your government is the arbiter of "programmer", anyone who can hack a few lines together but is only 12 and not permitted to license will be marginalised (and uneducated)?

It is getting much worse. Not only is little freedom left but it's been taken away under the guise of the exact opposite, and the façade is widely, and often violently, believed.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ryuker16 on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @07:21AM (#12742795)
Skilled trades dont have a political bias in terms of skill application. There is no isis way of plumbing or dark art of wiring.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by Senji on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @11:22AM (#12744571)
On the contrary.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ChoHag on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @04:50PM (#12747550)
Absolutely there's an ISIS of plumbling and a dark art of wiring but it comes from the opposite side to that which we expect.

I've mostly plumbed, entirely wired and partially built my own house. I can see better ways to do what I did, of course, and much much worse ways to do what I did. The boiler installer I hired was, thankfully, top notch (I am ridiculously careful with gas).

Oh and I also installed the fibre, installed an ethernet and wifi router, protected it all with a firewall and integrated a server and VPN.

And I grow about ⅔ of my food.

I do all of this without being qualified to do any more than make a coffee and people who are actually 'qualified' (or, more realistically, licensed) have mostly congratulated me on my work.

Should I have done none of these thing because Whitehall thinks erroneously that I'm too stupid? Fuck those cunts. My daughter is safe, has good friends, is well fed and well educated despite their bureaucracy, not because of it.

If anyone thinks I should not have done the plumbing or the electrification, despite being unlicensed, explain why growing my own food and configuring my own internet are OK. Or try and convince my that I should sacrifice my router to my government. And if you attempt (and you will fail utterly) to do that, prepare to be told to fuck right off.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by 1812calif on Sunday October 23, 2016 @02:06AM (#12772227)
In America, you are 100% allowed to do these things to your own house because you have to live with the consequences.

The trades are here to protect other people from me asserting my skill in electrician-ining, when I have no such skill but represent to others that I do.

Who is the ISIS of plumbing? I'm confused by that assertion.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ryuker16 on Thursday October 20, 2016 @10:07AM (#12752264)
Your pretty skilled at DIY. Your average person ime has incredible difficulty hooking up a surround sound audio system or setting up a router.

If you screw up a router install you have no internet. Screw up a diy plumbing job...

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by trhway on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @08:41PM (#12740018)
>why we don't have rules about who can and cannot call themselves a journalist.

>Coming up with these rules might be tricky, but shouldn't we try?

Russia has basically done it. Any web resource with more than 3000 monthly visitors gets the "mass media" status with additional rules and restrictions and related punishments. I'd not say that this is a good thing to say the least.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by losteverything on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:28PM (#12740837)
What?
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by flukus on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:51PM (#12739428)
I agree, but change journalist to "software developer" and see what kind of reaction you get around here.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by trentmb on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:55PM (#12739468)
> I agree, but change journalist to "software developer

Even better- "software engineer"

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by Tyr42 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:07PM (#12740445)
Hey, it is a protected term in Canada.

Don't got your iron ring? Not an Engineer.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by TW80000 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:48PM (#12740624)
I've read that this is only true for the term "Professional Engineer." Do you know of a source that backs up your claim?
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:01PM (#12740679)
For things we absolutely depend on, (like information in order to make rational choices), then hell yeah!

The thought of firmware or software in my body at some point scares the bejesus out of me, and it would bring me peace of mind to know there are accredited and audited standards for developing my pacemaker warez

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by appleflaxen on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:25PM (#12740236)
I don't think that contemporary journalists are any more virtuous than a blogger. Journalism quality is terrible, and it's not because amateurs are dragging down the mean: almost everybody lives down there.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by RandyRanderson on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @06:21AM (#12742539)
In my opinion, one of the main things that contributed to the reduction in the quality of journalism in america is the removal of what used to be called the Fairness Doctrine[0].

It was so strange to see Reagan feted as he was upon his death. One could argue that, other than Nixon, he did more to accelerate the downfall of America than any other president.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by specialist on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @09:54PM (#12740378)
Journalists attempt to tell the truth, gets second sources, endures fact checking, and correct any mistakes made.

Pundits are just loud mouths. Truthiness is irrelevant.

Propagandists knowingly lie, distort, omit, whatever.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ams6110 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:07PM (#12740447)
Journalists also focus on facts - who, what, when - and avoid bias. Something that we've seen has gone out the window at what used to be legitimate news sources.

I have no problem with opinion pieces or punditry, but don't try to disguise it as journalism.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by yk on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:51AM (#12741396)
That would not really help, since at the high end of information newspapers die by a thousand cuts. A journalist simply can not compete with Schneier's or DJB's blog on cryptography, he can not compete with Carrol on theoretical physics etc. So it is not only that newspapers do not have a good business model for the internet, it is also that the internet gives you better alternatives for those topics you are actually interested in.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by lifeisstillgood on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:30PM (#12739307)
Fantastic idea. It's a profession, and actually there are rules on who can write for newspapers - it's just that the owners of newspapers piss in the soup so much with their biases that it loses any value. So maybe fewer journalists and fewer newspapers - some form of public service guarantee otherwise you canny t be a newspaper just an entertainment magazine
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by dbcooper on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:25PM (#12739646)
Perhaps we should have strict rules about who can call himself an engineer?
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by ghaff on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:36PM (#12739701)
I don't agree with the parent about journalists (or that software developers should be licensed in general). But I would point out that, especially for engineers involved in signing off on certain things from a regulatory perspective, there is a Professional Engineer license that's required for certain jobs. I took and passed an Engineer-in-Training exam at one point because had I continued in my then job path I'd have wanted to become a PE once I'd the requisite amount of time.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by betenoire on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:04PM (#12740690)
We don't always need to apply an idea in the abstract to everything in the world. There is a big difference between someone who makes CRUD apps for a living, and someone who writes firmware for a pacemaker. No need to paint with such broad strokes.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by return0 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:42PM (#12739735)
Add to that , journalists may get fired but dont go to jail for spreading lies.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by cma on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @01:46AM (#12741375)
There is a law on the books for that, though I don't know of any journalists who have been prosecuted:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by someguydave on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:24PM (#12740819)
Such rules already exist and are widely ignored.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by CosmicShadow on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @09:31AM (#12743568)
We do in Canada.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by takingflac on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @02:42PM (#12746478)
Names are only protected if there is an associated license or certification process. These processes are generally in place to insure that your doctor/lawyer/electrician is competent enough to do their job, there are major ramifications if they fail to do their job correctly and they can be punished by the system, take away their license, if they fail to meet accepted standards. The way I see journalism is your sources and reputation is what gives you credibility in place of a license, do a bad job and people are less likely to listen to what you have to say.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by Clubber on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:50PM (#12740927)
Cynically, I think it's because the constitution implies journalists freedoms that certain public figures would prefer the general citizenry not have.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by goatlover on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:22AM (#12735337)
Sacrificing the ideals of journalism sounds like a bad deal for democracy. But then again, if people would rather be entertained by whatever is in their filter bubble for five minutes, than be challenged, I guess that's the kind of news world we get.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by olalonde on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:27PM (#12736758)
> Sacrificing the ideals of journalism sounds like a bad deal for democracy

We should not romanticize journalism of the past too much either. The "old news" subreddit gives some perspective (obviously, it's biased towards funny or unusual stories) https://www.reddit.com/r/OldNews

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by rustynails on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:41PM (#12739368)
I have recorded one year of imagery in a 1970 newspaper (as a start). Speaking from firsthand experience with comparisons from the last few years, media has taken a huge leap backwards and prejudice and nastiness has increased considerably. This is in spite of most people who haven't compared saying the opposite of what I have observed ("oh, you want to go back to how it was 50 years ago when men were all sexist?"). I could write a novel on that fallacious mindset alone!

This may not be what you meant about romanticising, but modern newspapers have deteriorated significantly.

Part of this deterioration is because of competition in journalism (click bait, a race to the bottom). Part of it is a perverse sense of and fundamental abuse of the term Equality. The abuse of the term equality has then lead to unprecedented gender bullying and some extreme revisionist history that largely remains unchallenged. If you pick up a reasonable paper from 1970, you will realise how sexist we have become! The issue today is that you won't find a reasonable (eg. non sexist) newspaper - there is no choice! Sexism and gender bullying ARE the norm.

Newspapers needed to compete with the Internet. In this respect, the article was fundamentally wrong. Failure to embrace the Internet would have allowed others to fill the void (even if you went online but charged money). More people are now used to digesting news electronically and the Internet makes the content dynamic and interactive.

People will pay good money for good news, but it needs to be good quality. That eliminates most of the market.

Think of games. You can still sell the occasional blockbuster (GTA 5 made a billion dollars worth of sales!!). However, most games on iTunes hover below a few $ and many end up free. Compare this to games 30 years ago where there was a small cheap-end market. Or, CDs. Sales have fallen through the floor, but, a 99c track sells well on iTunes. News isn't quite the same, but you can see that a paradigm shift was inevitable for newspapers with the advent of the Internet.

If there was one thing the papers got wrong, it was the increase in nastiness and prejudice. I believe society is much worse today than it has been in a long time. The caring element is what we've lost. We need a new generation of pioneers to undo the carnage.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by spc476 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:54PM (#12740947)
And go back to 1900 and you'll find completely biased newpapers (The Arizona Republic used to be called The Arizona Republican: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arizona_Republic ---that's not the only example either) and over the top reporting that would give newspapers (and TV) a run for their money today (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism). Was it better in the 1970s? Or was the bias better hidden at the time?
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by Fricken on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:41AM (#12735531)
I remember my print edition, it was mostly schlock, but every now and then they would do some real investigative local reporting, and that was invaluable. No local source has broken a major, deep, sprawling complex story in years, they're basically just bloggers now, they've got a handful of daily beats they cover, and they don't go much deeper than that. Powerful local organizations operate unchecked.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by gozur88 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @05:49PM (#12739038)
This. Local (non-sports) news in my paper is mostly city council stuff and the police blotter. A particularly salacious crime gets a few extra column inches.

Other than that, the paper is wire stories and advertisements.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by tcbawo on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @10:44PM (#12740607)
I've noticed neighborhood groups on Facebook starting to fill this vacuum. It would be interesting if online journalism could embrace the model of geographic news.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by UweSchmidt on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:41AM (#12735535)
I feel that the local newspaper, or even the common worldview of the major newspapers were/are quite the bubble themselves. Imagine HN without a comment section!

Content algorithms seem to be putting the occasional annoying thing into my feed to keep it fresh, and I keep finding gems of brilliance out of the scope of traditional journalism.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by EGreg on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:51AM (#12735634)
This may not be the news world we need

But this is the news world we deserve :)

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by orbitingpluto on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:44PM (#12737436)
I think your comment is very apt. If you don't pay for the news, you being manipulated is the product. You have to support people who inform for our actual benefit.

I subscribe to a couple digital periodicals. My last paper subscription lapsed about four months ago.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by mark-r on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:00PM (#12737591)
Paying doesn't help. It always galled me that I was paying for the privilege of getting ads.

My paper subscription lapsed years ago. The local paper is actually pretty good, but I find I don't miss it much anymore.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by orbitingpluto on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:51AM (#12741164)
Perhaps you should find some news sites that don't have ads then? Something that only exists on readership support? Some stories only eventually break into 'mainstream media' (ugh, I used that phrase, I'm sorry) through these sites.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by nathanaldensr on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:53PM (#12739438)
This is a false dichotomy. Please present evidence that shows that paying for news means you are not being manipulated. I counter your lack of evidence with an opinion that states the opposite: News being written by people, almost all news has some form of bias. Sometimes it's barely there, sometimes it's in-your-face.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by orbitingpluto on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @12:43AM (#12741131)
Spurting out 'false dichotomy' and stating that I haven't provided the necessary treatise of evidence is kind of ridiculous. I hope you can see how pretentious that sounds.

If a news organization only exists because the Koch brothers own it and it operates at a loss, its primary purpose isn't to serve unbiased news, but propaganda.

Contrast that to a news agency or journalist whose existence is funded only through subscriptions, with zero advertising. These type of agencies are not subservient to a Murdoch, a pharma company, or anybody. They only have to interest their readership sufficiently.

Of course there is still bias. But now you have multiple viewpoints. If the only news you're getting is from papers owned by billionaires or heavily moderated forums owned by billionaires, then good luck.

I would agree with you that sending money to Fox News isn't going to help with the bias much.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by jamez1 on Friday October 21, 2016 @12:39AM (#12758174)
He was right, you implied paying for the news removes the manipulation, which is a ridiculous notion.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by orbitingpluto on Sunday October 23, 2016 @02:32AM (#12772308)
That's not what I said. I said that if you don't pay for the news, then you being manipulated is the product. That's not the same thing as simply forking over money magically removing bias. The latter is a ridiculous notion and that equates to your straw-man argument.

Do you really think a trusted news source with corporate overlords is able operate with unlimited autonomy? I would have no issue if there was a large diversity of ownership with conflicting issues. But I don't really see sufficient conflict in corporate America.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by makomk on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @08:30AM (#12743147)
Even if you do pay for news, you being manipulated is still the product - the barrier to entrance just ensures you're a higher-quality, more attentive product. Paid newspapers have always had ads, always been subsidised by newspaper barons with their own interests at heart. Here in the UK, the newspaper chain most aggressive about online paywalls is also the one that openly brags about influencing elections. "It's the Sun wot won it", and you can't get the Sun for free.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by amelius on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:09PM (#12739185)
Now I'm curious. Are we actually measuring how well people are informed in general? Is informedness declining? That would be interesting, since the web is supposed to bring us information, not take it away.
Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by rustynails on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:06PM (#12739542)
The media has always had a vested interest in what it tells you. Look up William Randolph Hearst as an example.

However, today, you see a lot more blatant manipulation in the media. People are conditioned to it, which is scary.

Take a subtle example, Ars Technica almost never says Chairman, it says Chairperson, but it will say Chairwoman (which also shows their ignorance of the origin of Chairman). Ars has played all sorts of games like this. It started around the time of Casey Johnson and the introduction of strong gender stereotyping. This was from a once brilliant (and well balanced) site that has never recovered.

Today, very few people will tell you how to think, they will tell you what to think, who to vote for, etc.

True of False (taken from Wikipedia): "Limited voting rights were gained by some women in Sweden, Britain, and some western U.S. states in the 1860s."

The answer of course is False. We have voting records from the UK (as one example) showing quite a few women on independent means voting in the 1830s (when FEW men had the right to vote, let alone women - which is always overlooked for the sake of propaganda). This is an example of a stream of calculated deceit that has flourished in the last 20 years, without challenge.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/9933592/Wom...

There are many areas today where people don't bother to do any fact checking. What's worse are those that purposely manipulate history. They insult and disgrace our grandmothers and grandfathers. Yet, most of us would say that our grandmothers were not wallflowers and our grandfathers not anything like modern media portrays!!!

So, in short, yes. The Internet goes a long way to hiding and misrepresenting information. The signal to noise ratio is a big part of the problem, but special interest groups and political correctness have also contributed significantly.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by quirkafleeg on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @11:52PM (#12740939)
> Take a subtle example, Ars Technica almost never says Chairman, it says Chairperson, but it will say Chairwoman (which also shows their ignorance of the origin of Chairman).

Where is your evidence for that claim?

Chairwoman - About 272 results: https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=chairwoman+site%3Aar...

Chairperson - About 179 results: https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=chairperson+site%3Aa...

Chairman - About 2,960 results: https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=chairman+site%3Aarst...

> True of False (taken from Wikipedia): "Limited voting rights were gained by some women in Sweden, Britain, and some western U.S. states in the 1860s."

> The answer of course is False. We have voting records from the UK (as one example) showing quite a few women on independent means voting in the 1830s

How does that make it false? It doesn't state that no woman voted in the 1830s, it states that some women gained voting rights in the 1860s. The only way it's false is if no women received voting rights in the 1860s.

It's not "an example of a stream of calculated deceit that has flourished in the last 20 years", it's simply an example of nobody who edited that page being aware that some women voted in the 1830s.

If you have legitimate sources demonstrating they did (your link states 1843, BTW, not 1830s) then edit the Wikipedia page and add/correct that info. That's how Wikipedia works.

Re:What If the Newspaper Industry Made a Colossal Mistake? by return0 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @07:36PM (#12739700)
Also , ease of access. If newspapers did not publish online, people would OCR and pirate their articles.