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Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Retric on Monday September 12, 2016 @12:36PM (#12481167)
There are a lot of unknowns. Chances are it's not going to be Bluetooth, but some toothpaste additive, cellphone case sealant, or something else nobody really thought about that we are going to look back and cringe.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by e40 on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:04PM (#12481468)
but some toothpaste additive

About 9 months ago I stopped using toothpaste (my Dentist said it was fine) because I read the canker sores I had been getting for years and years were caused by an additive in tooth paste: Sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS). Sure enough, I have not had a single canker sore since I stopped using tooth paste!

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by PKop on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:07PM (#12481495)
Don't leave us hanging... what was your substitute?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by e40 on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:21PM (#12481632)
Nothing. The toothpastes without SLS made me gag. My dentist said using no toothpaste was fine. My Sonicare toothbrush and flossing does the job just fine, and the floride in the water handles the rest.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by BigThrowaway88 on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:22PM (#12482262)
Turns out the benefits of flossing are not backed by research. Largely manufactured by industry:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/f7e66079d9ba4b4985d7af350619a...

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by e40 on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:29PM (#12482329)
I really don't believe this. The spaces between my teeth are very small, and without flossing, brushing can't clean out the food that gets wedged in there. I've actually flossed after brushing (with a Sonicare) and I still remove food with the floss.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by skyyler on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:52PM (#12483083)
And going right back to the original topic here, those bits of food wouldn't be as big a deal without all of the added sugars that we have now, right? Isn't tooth decay caused by sugar-eating bacteria?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by e40 on Tuesday September 13, 2016 @04:45PM (#12492072)
It's damn near impossible to remove all carbs from your diet, even if you try. So, in the very theoretical case of having absolutely no carbs, then you're right. For the vast majority of people on earth, it's simply not true.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by MaysonL on Monday September 12, 2016 @06:02PM (#12484067)
I picked up a pack of 10 (count them 10) interstitial toothbrushes at the 99¢ store. One of the best dollars I ever spent. Brand name: "Aim interdental brush". They work just about as well as flossing (I still keep some floss stick around for the occasional piece of stuff that gets stuck that these don't get out). Their business end looks like a tiny artificial Christmas tree, with a small plastic handle.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Frondo on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:08PM (#12482686)
Heh, anecdotally, I used to get a couple cavities a year, pretty consistently, never flossed. I started flossing religiously a few years ago, and after a week of spitting blood out in the sink afterward, I got used to it. Haven't had one since.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by glandium on Monday September 12, 2016 @07:56PM (#12484704)
Anecdotally, my wife has been flossing forever and has cavities all over the place. I, on the other hand, never ever flossed, rarely brush my teeth more than once a day, and have no cavities.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Retra on Monday September 12, 2016 @07:20PM (#12484452)
Just because nobody bothered to research it doesn't mean it isn't true.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by M_Grey on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:20PM (#12482245)
You can even use some salt, or baking soda if you feel like you need a "deeper clean" or the like.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by enraged_camel on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:45PM (#12483018)
Yep, this is in fact how the nobility did it back in the day!
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by M_Grey on Monday September 12, 2016 @06:33PM (#12484216)
IIRC, they used something like the Arabic 'miswak', a twig with a sort of shredded end. Is that about right?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by LoSboccacc on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:53PM (#12481968)
I'm using pressure water (with a pinch of moutwash) - really brings out the white out of teeth. also no matter how much I brush and floss, there's always stuff coming out of gums while watering. I don't do it often as it's quite intensive, but hey, it helped me a lot.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by voidz on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:39PM (#12481814)
Fluoride isn't exactly healthy either though, is it?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Karunamon on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:46PM (#12481885)
The dose makes the poison - there's a pretty dramatic correlation between low level fluoridation like the kind that's added to water and oral health, with not much at all linking it to health issues.

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/crd/fluorid.htm

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v192/n9/full/4801410a.html

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by sleighboy on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:26PM (#12482856)
I would not say that is dramatic or even meaningful. The findings are full of statements on how the the studies they considered were "of moderate quality, but of limited quantity". And they conclude with saying basically that they have no conclusion.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Karunamon on Monday September 12, 2016 @05:21PM (#12483796)
I think we may have read different studies. From the conclusions on the second link:

From the evidence available, it can be concluded that fluoridation of public water supplies does prevent caries and is associated with fluorosis.

Personally speaking, I'd call 15-25% reductions "dramatic".

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by sleighboy on Monday September 12, 2016 @08:00PM (#12484733)
From the summary: "The authors were surprised by the small amount of work identified. In particular, there were very few studies that followed the same individuals longitudinally, there was lack of analysis of confounding variables and there was failure to undertake appropriate statistical analysis."

The whole report has a tone of being the best they could conclude with poor data which is stressed repeatedly. Those numbers put in context of the opinions of the source data makes them not so impressive.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by imglorp on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:46PM (#12481884)
A pinch of baking soda will have the same abrasives.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by liquidwax on Monday September 12, 2016 @08:37PM (#12484883)
Chewing neem twigs
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by pkaye on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:52PM (#12482560)
Whenever I have canker sores I stop using toothpaste and dip my toothbrush in a cup of mouthwash and that helps the sores heal much faster.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by brockhaywood on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:05PM (#12481477)
So, what is the alternative you are using? Water and brushing? Or some organic toothpaste alternative?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by ChoGGi on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:06PM (#12482088)
I use Green beaver toothpaste http://greenbeaver.com

Calcium Carbonate, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sorbitol, Glycerin, Hydrated Silica, Mentha Piperita (Peppermint) leaf Oil, Menthol, Xylitol, Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Extract, Xanthan Gum, Coco-Glucoside, Calcium Ascorbate, Melaleuca Alternifolia (Tea Tree) Leaf Oil.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by tiglionabbit on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:16PM (#12481576)
I still use toothpaste, but I've found that using a sonicare toothbrush made a huge improvement in preventing cavities. Also flossing is important.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by BigThrowaway88 on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:20PM (#12482246)
The benefits of flossing are not backed by data. Seems it too is a myth manufactured by industry:

The FDA had to remove the recommendation from daily hygiene guidelines, as law requires them to be backed by legit science.

That said, I still do it. Makes my mouth "feel" cleaner".

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/f7e66079d9ba4b4985d7af350619a...

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by switch007 on Monday September 12, 2016 @05:12PM (#12483732)
The cited references studied cavities, plaque, gingivitis and gum disease. I see two other benefits in flossing: combating halitosis and comfort (meat stuck between molars for me is extremely irritating).
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by skyyler on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:53PM (#12483092)
How have you found a sonicare toothbrush to help cavities?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by e40 on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:22PM (#12481645)
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Cerium on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:12PM (#12481542)
I just use water and a toothbrush. It works well.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by MichaelGG on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:14PM (#12481568)
SLS is organic.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by awqrre on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:48PM (#12481905)
There's plenty of organic compounds that are toxic to humans (not saying that this one is or isn't) ...
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by adrr on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:46PM (#12482505)
SLS isn't that toxic, its just overly an effective surfactant that strips all the natural oils from your skin/cheeks. Its why your hands free dry when you wash dishes with dish soap. Also strong enough to remove crude oil from birds.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by MichaelGG on Monday September 12, 2016 @04:49PM (#12483523)
Sure, just saying that "an organic toothpaste" doesn't rule out SLS.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by allwein on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:49PM (#12481910)
So is arsenic.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by kefka on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:28PM (#12482320)
I didn't know that elemental Arsenic (As) was made of chains of elemental carbons (C)...

The more you know??

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by dredmorbius on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:56PM (#12482587)
Incorrect.

Arsenic is an element. Elemental arsenic, as with elemental carbon, or hydrogen, or any other element, is made of protons, neutrons, and electrons.

Its chemical properties are defined largely by its valence electrons, and atomic mass.

There is no more carbon in arsenic than there is sound in light. They are different things.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by prewett on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:31PM (#12482887)
Your parent poster was well aware of that, and also assumed his parent was aware of that as well. His post was a subtle version of "arsenic can't be 'organic' because cannot be composed of carbon chains because it is an element which is not carbon."

The advantage of his version (especially in spoken conversation) is that you can tell someone they are wrong, and typically if they have such a gross misunderstanding, it will go completely over their heads, and they won't realize that you are telling them they are wrong.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by dredmorbius on Monday September 12, 2016 @04:55PM (#12483587)
Whoosh! </self>

Yeah, I managed to miss that.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by kefka on Tuesday September 13, 2016 @09:31AM (#12488000)
Yeah, I was trying to be nice :)

In all honesty, I was thinking that allwein's post was an example of "Not even wrong" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong )

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by Retric on Wednesday September 14, 2016 @07:33AM (#12495797)
Water is considered an important part of organic chemistry by everyone, but pedantic chemists. Original poster may have been thinking of cyanide but As is often found in plants and animals and is not man made. Which fits the casual definition.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by jaymoorthi on Monday September 12, 2016 @09:13PM (#12485001)
In my (limited) experience, canker sores are an allergic reaction. Raw pineapples make the inside of my mouth tingly, and then voila: canker sores. I stopped eating raw pineapple, and I've not had a canker sore since.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by jschwartzi on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:19PM (#12481610)
I used to have to use lotion on my hands constantly until I switched to castille soap instead of SLS-based detergents.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by akavlie on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:15PM (#12481574)
I use Sensodyne for the same reason — it's a widely available toothpaste that doesn't have SLS.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by dgjfe on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:17PM (#12481593)
Actually, most types of Sensodyne have SLS in them too. The "Extra Whitening" type doesn't, so I use that.

Once I switched to that, I stopped getting so many canker sores almost immediately.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by stepanhruda on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:22PM (#12481648)
Thanks for the tip
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by jotato on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:07PM (#12481497)
so what do you use now? Coconut oil or something similar?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by lukeschlather on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:18PM (#12481600)
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday September 12, 2016 @12:39PM (#12481193)
For instance, For a long time diesel has promoted in Europe as greener than petrol. This is soon to change, because: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/27/diesel-engine-fum...
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by barkbro on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:14PM (#12482186)
Diesel engines produces less CO2 by being slightly more efficient.

Pretrol engines produce less nitrogen oxides and particulate matter.

What's "greener" is just a matter of your definition of it.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday September 12, 2016 @04:10PM (#12483225)
> What's "greener" is just a matter of your definition of it.

What i means was that the "promoted" part is soon to change, because of the greater understanding of the drastic public health consequences.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by hx87 on Monday September 12, 2016 @12:55PM (#12481359)
Diesel /is/ greener when you consider only CO2 emissions and energy efficiency, although turbocharged direct injection engines narrow that gap significantly. If this were the '70s though, I'd much rather have a fleet of diesel cars running around than ones with cabureted gasoline engines.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by greglindahl on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:10PM (#12481522)
What about all the people who die from diesel particulates? Failing to consider that is exactly the mistake Europe is still making.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by hx87 on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:07PM (#12482097)
Particulates are easy to deal with using current technology--burn lean, burn hot (and inject lots of urea to get rid of all the NOx that this regime creates), and stick on a filter on the tailpipe to get rid of the stuff that does get created. The main problem is that diesel engines last forever, and a lot of old engines that don't meet requirements are still on the road.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by greglindahl on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:59PM (#12482606)
This is partly true: You can reduce particulates, but they're still bad in areas with a lot of less-emitting vehicles. Also, the technology that reduces particulates needs to be carefully maintained to continue working as well as it did the day the vehicle left the factory... and there's plenty of incentive to cheat, in order to save money.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by hx87 on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:27PM (#12482865)
With 2016 diesel technology, the only "less-emitting vehicles" are EVs and possibly CNG-powered vehicles. As for cheating, as long as the manufacturer does its job (by either eliminating EGR altogether or installing a catch can in the PCV system), there is little to no incentive to cheat on the operator's part. Urea is dirt cheap as long as you don't buy from the dealership.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by greglindahl on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:54PM (#12483102)
I was comparing modern diesels to older ones, was that unclear? It's not difficult to get enough 2016 diesels in an area small enough to violate the short-term standard for particulates. And I'd bet your confidence about cheating is misplaced; time will tell.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by walshemj on Monday September 12, 2016 @06:43PM (#12484280)
Try riding a bike behind a bus or truck with a poorly maintained diesel
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by SilasX on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:37PM (#12482422)
I always assumed it would be the opposite: something that a lot of people already recognize as being dangerous, but which lacked concrete evidence demonstrating how dangerous it is. So my candidates for a future "omg we have to stop this" are:

- bad posture at office jobs (probably mandated adjustable standing desks in the future)

- stress from a long, high-traffic commute

- insufficient sleep

- per the article, high-sugar foods. EDIT: technically, a high-sugar diet. Part of the problem is that no one unit of sugar by itself is the problem, so you can't point to any one food as the culprit.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by TheSpiceIsLife on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:26PM (#12482848)
Wasn't there some news recently that sleep deficiency is positively correlated with heart disease?

Something like this http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/tiredness-and-fatigue/Pages/lack-...

There was also some news recently that working in a place that grinds coffee causes lung cancer http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/04/15/474325037/cof...

Probably if the sabre-toothed tiger gets you before the age of 35 you won't get cancer or heart disease. But if you live long enough and the cancer doesn't kill you the chemotherapy will.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by boodm on Monday September 12, 2016 @07:20PM (#12484453)
You're missing the easy one, caffeine.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by c23gooey on Tuesday September 13, 2016 @08:45AM (#12487641)
and alcohol
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by timewarrior on Monday September 12, 2016 @12:45PM (#12481259)
Agreed! But we cannot ignore potential visible risks while worrying about unknown risks.

I use organic/natural exclusively. Try to model my life closed to simple ingredients people used more than 100 years back. I also diversify things I consume. Someone once posted on HN: His grandpa told him everything is poison, so use everything in moderation. I really liked this recommendation.

However it is very difficult to prevent all the radio waves in today's world as much as you try. Maybe it's not harmful but we won't find out for decades.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by DougWebb on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:00PM (#12481421)
Many of the "simple ingredients" that people used 100 years ago aren't really available anymore, at least not in the US. That would somewhat true even with traditional breeding and cultivation, but over the past 100 years we've greatly improved our understanding of how breeding works, the rate that we can modify plants and animals, and with GMOs we now have a lot of direct control over the outcome. We just don't have the same plants and animals that we had 100 years ago anymore.

You say you stick to organic/natural. Well, it's all "natural", even GMOs, if you're eating plant and animal products directly. (Eg: stay away from additives and highly processed foods.) "Organic" is a bit tougher; you want it to mean that the plants and animals were raised without getting stuffed with chemicals and antibiotics, but there's a lot of wiggle room there because 'food' is made up of chemicals, and many foods and chemicals have some antibiotic properties.

In the end, if you're not growing the plants and breeding the animals yourself you don't really know if the "organic" label on them means what you want it to mean. And except for heirloom varieties, (and maybe even those) the plants and animals you're raising are still the product of the past 100 years of breeding, which usually focused on attributes other than making them healthy to eat.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by deadowl on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:50PM (#12482532)
Organic is pretty easy to get information on. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-standards

From what I've been told, there are definitely some things you can do that would increase sustainability that would cause you to lose your organic label. E.g. substituting a biodegradable material that doesn't list its ingredients could cause you to lose the label when using plastic wouldn't.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by vecinu on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:18PM (#12482228)
What about people that are living in more rural parts of Europe?

There are a lot of small time farmers there that still grow the same sheep/cows/animals their grandparents grew 100 years ago.

They grow the same veggies on the same rotated soil that was grown 100 years ago, the same way.

Sure it may be a niche but if I'm living around there and eating that food, I think it's pretty darn close to what our ancestors were eating a century ago.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by DougWebb on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:53PM (#12482567)
I'm specifically talking about the US, and in particular the majority of the US population. My understanding is that the rest of the world tends to be somewhat better (not as much industrialization of farming and breeding) and of course there are still farmers all over the world who are still using traditional methods.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by timewarrior on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:14PM (#12481570)
Agreed!

However it's still probably better to eat organic than something which doesn't even pretend to be safe. It's all relative in the end.

I hope one day I can control the sources and attributes of all the food that I eat. However till then I will try to do my best with my available time and money.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by mxfh on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:09PM (#12481516)
"simple ingredients" ... like the coke in Coca Cola?
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by DougWebb on Monday September 12, 2016 @05:07PM (#12483691)
People downvoted you, but that's not a bad example. Cocaine is an early (modern) example of the food industry taking a natural product that's been used forever, coca leaves, and processing it to produce a much more dangerous food additive.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by jahewson on Monday September 12, 2016 @01:27PM (#12481701)
> simple ingredients people used more than 100 years back

Back when they used (natural) lead as a sweetener? :P

Seriously though, 100 years is probably not long enough ago if you're looking for "good" food. White bread was all the rage. Jello+, mayonnaise, and marshmallows were standard ingredients in "salads". Anything which actually looked like a natural food item was pretty much shunned, unless you were poor. The Edwardian focus on efficiency and cleanliness above flavor paved the way culturally for the industrial food of the 1950s.

+ They actually used sheets of gelatin to make their "Jello" as the powdered stuff hadn't been invented yet.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by nightski on Monday September 12, 2016 @02:52PM (#12482555)
100 years back life expectancy was significantly worse. There are countless things in nature that can out right kill you. Your approach seems pretty ridiculous. (I did not down vote you however).
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by dredmorbius on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:12PM (#12482733)
Little of that life expectancy had to do specifically with worse nutritional quality of food. Access to food, nutritional understanding, and food spoilage, yes.

Much had to do with a lack of awareness of germ theory, with waste disposal -- both human and trash -- with pollution of water supplies, and with poor or limited public health measures against community-propogating infectious disease.

The highest mortality rates were among infants and children, which did a great deal to reduce total life expectency at birth, but had compartively far less an effect on adolescent and adult life expectency.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

At birth, in 1850, white male life expectency was 38.3 (additional years of life), but 48.0 at age 10, and 40.1 at age 20.

In 2011, the comparable values are 76.3, 66.9, and 57.2.

The increase was initially rapid -- by 1929-31, rates had reached 59.12, 54.96, and 46.02, respectively.

While there's been some improvement in later years of life, it's been far less. If you survived to age 50 in 1850, you had a life expectency less than 10 years shorter than in 2011.

Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by nightski on Monday September 12, 2016 @03:36PM (#12482938)
I already knew all of this, yet it doesn't really affect my opinion. It provides no evidence whatsoever that going out into nature and picking random naturally occurring foods is more healthy than our food system today.
Re:How the Sugar Industry Shifted Blame to Fat by dredmorbius on Monday September 12, 2016 @04:54PM (#12483577)
It addresses the specific criticism you'd offered of eating older rather than newer cultivars: there's little evidence your specific criticism has merits.

Neither of us have addressed the underlying question of whether or not present cultivars and crops are themselves intrinsically healthier or less healthy than older ones. There are some theoretical bases for beliving either way. The arguments against many specifically processed foods are rather stronger.