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Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by karterk on Monday June 13, 2016 @08:49AM (#11893280)
Ah, the armchair critic. I'm by no means a Microsoft fanboy, but things have been much better under Satya Nadella.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by badlogic on Monday June 13, 2016 @08:55AM (#11893338)
Like the forced Win10 updates, spyware, ads directly in the OS which you paid for, ...?
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:57AM (#11894357)
Spyware? Really? I can understand the updates making people upset (though they should update!,) and the "suggested apps" in the start menu (which luckily you can turn off.) But calling Windows 10 spyware is total nonsense. Do you think that every other major OS, including Android and iOS, OSX don't take telemetry metrics? You're insane. You could never improve the OS, if you didn't.

Google takes telemetry data from your search results, which frankly are far more invasive than how you scroll through your start menu or how often you use the action center. It's all anonymized, I don't see the problem. I certainly wouldn't call it "spyware," that just a smear and has nothing to do with reality.

They don't track your keystrokes, unless you are using Cortana, which guess what? So does Google/Apple/Amazon when you use their assistants. So you're going to switch to a competitor of Microsofts because they started doing what their competitors already did? Fantastic logic.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Karunamon on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:44AM (#11894765)
I certainly wouldn't call it "spyware"

Do you have a better term for code that does user-unwanted tracking of their behavior, on any level, which hides itself from view, is difficult (in many cases impossible) to disable, and resists the will of the user when they try things like hosts file filtering?

The only difference between 3rd party spyware and Microsoft spyware is the stated intention of the author. Oh, and the former generally being easier to remove.

Somehow, we improved OSes and UIs before this kind of always on bullshit was commonly accepted. And I see it as a negative besides, it means that any "improvements" are always going to be pointed at the lowest common denominator, which has a habit of leaving power users out in the cold.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by scholia on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:15PM (#11895502)
> it means that any "improvements" are always going to be pointed at the lowest common denominator, which has a habit of leaving power users out in the cold.

Power users usually remove any influence they might have by opting out of telemetry....

On the other hand, most people on the Windows Insider rings are technically adept, so maybe that balances out.

Of course, the Insider builds have a lot more telemetry....

> Somehow, we improved OSes and UIs before this kind of always on bullshit was commonly accepted.

Everything you do that involves Google (or Facebook etc) provides complete telemetry and those products are continuously updated whether you like it or not.

Now Microsoft has stopped developing stuff on a three-year cycle and switched to 6 months or less. (So you won't have to do any more Big Bang upgrades that take 18 months to plan and 18 months to implement, leaving you permanently behind.)

Either way, it probably makes sense to do more or less continuous OS updates when the OS is integrated with apps and online services (Outlook.com, OneDrive, Office 365 etc).

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:50AM (#11894821)
So iOS and Android are spyware? Apps that collect telemetry are spyware? Where do you draw the line?
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Karunamon on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:53AM (#11894856)
I'm not sure what your point is. If the problem is that most of our OSes now contain spyware, by any objective definition of the word, that is an accurate statement.

I "draw the line" at the definition I gave in the previous post. Where's the off switch?

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bduerst on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:25AM (#11894617)
I'm not sure how you're equating cookie-level tracking to being more invasive than OS-level tracking.

At least with a browser client you have control over how you're traced on the web. With the OS (that you paid for), you're forced to install some third party software and give it admin access. That's not a security problem waiting to happen at all.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:56AM (#11894883)
> That's not a security problem waiting to happen at all.

You're right, it's not.

> I'm not sure how you're equating cookie-level tracking to being more invasive than OS-level tracking.

Google does far more than cookie level tracking. What do you think Google Now use? Magic?

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bduerst on Monday June 13, 2016 @04:30PM (#11897318)
You're not making any sense - you're claiming Google tracking is magic? Google, Facebook, or any other website doesn't get OS-level tracking, and are stopped cold by a generic adblocker.

Blocking OS-level tracking is a security issue because the third party software can be bought and sold to malware companies, who can push an update to infect your computer.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bad_user on Monday June 13, 2016 @06:06PM (#11898118)
You don't even need ad-blocking, you can simply stop third party cookies. Firefox at least has this option.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by robbbbbbbbb on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:24AM (#11894610)
Just because something is normal doesn't make it right. And just because something takes some telemetry data doesn't mean taking any data is ok. Microsoft has done just fine with windows without taking all this additional information, so I just don't understand the argument that they need it.

Also, I think windows 10 is closer to adware than spyware. I think it is adware as it sneakily installs itself, and it has ads.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:54AM (#11894867)
> Just because something is normal doesn't make it right.

That's debatable, but why should Microsoft allow its competitors have an advantage over them because of telemetry data? The collection doesn't do you any harm, it's not invasive. They aren't looking at your file names, or the text in your documents or your keystrokes. The only time they gather keystroke information is when you're in Cortana...which is literally useless without gathering telemetry for search terms.

> Microsoft has done just fine with windows without taking all this additional information

Except for losing marketshare and people complaining about UX and how OSX is better?

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by andrepd on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:01PM (#11895403)
>The collection doesn't do you any harm

This kind of thinking sickens me. So you would be fine with me rampaging through your room and your house looking over your stuff, making a catalog of the things you own, the things you buy, what you do with them, at what hours, and how often, watching you eat, work, play, sleep, be with your friends, taking notes on who you speak to, at what hours, and about what...

Since, as you say, this doesn't do you any harm?

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @04:33PM (#11897357)
The collection Microsoft does is nothing like that, it's literally things like "did this users use the action center" or not. In Cortana it tracks your search, JUST like Google Now/Siri. It's not going through your documents or personal stuff at all. It's not even on the NSA level meta data, which I do have a problem with. It honestly sounds like you don't even know what it's tracking at all. Your analogy makes 0 sense at all. You might as well claim that "heat mapping" on websites is akin to rummaging through your trash.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Cthulhu_ on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:06AM (#11893450)
The forced updates are something that's been long overdue.

Imagine a world without old versions of IE that your webapps still have to support because else you're losing 10% of your users.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by kens on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:16AM (#11894037)
Forced updates have destroyed the good feelings I had about Windows 10 and made it likely my next computer won't be Windows. Specifically, it's the unexpected reboot that infuriates me. I was running a long simulation overnight and in the morning my computer had rebooted and greets me with "Hi. We've got some new features to get excited about." Spontaneous reboots are NOT OK.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by mfoy_ on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:15PM (#11895037)
Or you have a fullscreen program open, say a video game or a movie. And bam. Computer just shuts down without warning. What the heck? Installing Updates. :(
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by slig on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:26AM (#11893627)
Or a world where a forced update breaks my parents' computer that was working perfectly fine before.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by abakker on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:11AM (#11893999)
Without them, your parents' computer would just be insecure, instead. Unfortunately, keeping things static doesn't work so well with internet connected devices.

It would be nice if things didn't break with updates, though.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by abakker on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:00AM (#11894377)
I will backpedal a bit and say though: it is never OK to arbitrarily reboot a system. Never. I'll also say that I would not use windows 10 for anything important.

The idea behind their update system is generally sound, but their execution is not good.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by ajmurmann on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:18AM (#11894546)
As opposed to a world full of legacy systems with security holes that are part of botnets.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Silhouette on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:32AM (#11894667)
Applying security updates by default would solve that problem just as well. From the user's point of view, there is no good reason to force updates against a user's explicit decision, and there is no good reason to push non-security/stability updates even by default.

The only time forcing all updates in that way makes a difference is when Microsoft wants to override a user's deliberate preference not to have their system changed in that way. This cannot possibly be in the user's interest, only Microsoft's.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by DanBC on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:40AM (#11894733)
Windows 8 was released in late 2012.

What can't be fixed by security updates, as opposed to OS upgrade?

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by SteveNuts on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:58AM (#11893899)
Forced updates of minor versions, sure. Upgrading the OS to a whole new major version, breaking lots of things in the process is on a new level.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by robbbbbbbbb on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:28AM (#11894640)
I actually really dislike forced updates. In theory they could be fantastic as you will always be up to date on security and any additional features you'd get. However in practice they seem awful as they often break your settings, add additional ads/restrictions, introduce bugs, don't apply correctly, and happen at the worst time.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by marssaxman on Monday June 13, 2016 @06:22PM (#11898221)
Forced updates are not acceptable. Whose computer is it, anyway? I don't care how useful you think it would be, if you try to force me to update I'm simply not going to use your software. No. My computer, my choice.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by webmaven on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:02AM (#11893928)
Forced browser updates are one thing, but forced upgrading of the OS?

Yuck.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bionsuba on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:40AM (#11894224)
Yeah doing things without the user's permission is great. I just love it when my computer does a software breaking update for me.

Microsoft: Enjoy the safety (and the ads), because you have no choice.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tamana on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:37AM (#11894192)
Yeah, the forced upgrade isn't bad. The low quality of the new version is bad.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @08:56AM (#11893352)
You not liking it doesn't make it a poor business strategy.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by imron on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:01AM (#11893389)
But large numbers of people not liking it does make it a poor business strategy - not immediately, but it's the sort of thing people will remember.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:02AM (#11893409)
Large numbers of people in the tech community. Most people aren't us.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by joosters on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:18AM (#11893566)
My dad isn't in the 'tech community' but he'll certainly remember the windows 10 upgrade as it broke his computer.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by davnn on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:17AM (#11894058)
Did he consider going for a Mac then?
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by SpaceManiac on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:07AM (#11893453)
I would think that non-techies would be even more confused and annoyed by their computer suddenly drastically changing out from underneath them without their permission.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:14AM (#11893524)
And then they'd get over it. Oddly enough, my parents upgraded this past week:

Mom: Honey, what's this thing stopping me from [shopping]?

Dad: Don't click the button!

Mom: [long lecture about how she's trying to do stuff for her grandkids].

Dad: Fine, just hit the damn button.

Me: DON'T HIT THE BUTTON! I'll walk you through it.

I proceeded to explain it to them. 5 days later they don't even remember/care. I guarantee you my grandmother doesn't give a shit either, nor do most of my siblings. So far, I'm at a 6:2 ratio of not caring (one of my brothers is a developer). My parents aren't exactly ignorant in regards to tech, but it simply doesn't effect them to the extent it bothers you/us.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tamana on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:40AM (#11894218)
Most of us get repeated phone calls asking where the buttons went. Learning new things gets harder with age.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by taude on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:26AM (#11893624)
Apple's proven that the general population get over this pretty quickly, though. Look at their iOS 7 update.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Silhouette on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:27AM (#11894630)
One of my family, who isn't particularly technical, bought a pre-iOS7 iPad after trying out someone else's and liking it.

Soon it was running iOS 7 after prompting to update to the new OS.

Soon after that it went back to the shop for a full refund, because the person who had liked it before found the new OS and the things that broke in the process of updating that annoying.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tajen on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:07AM (#11893460)
Forced Windows 10 upgrade became a meme on 9gag ("Went to the toilets and saw this", etc). I learnt about the story over there before it was on HN. I'm not saying 9gag is representative, but I counter the "no-one noticed the forced upgrades". Even my parents did. Everyone noticed.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by argonaut on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:11AM (#11893490)
Most people have not heard of 9gag.

Most adults probably don't really know what a meme is yet either (they've probably seen a few, just don't really get it yet).

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Sylos on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:51AM (#11893833)
His point was that even on 9GAG, which does not have a tech-focused community, this is a central talking point, so it's not just the tech-crowd which is pissed off about this.

Sure, 9GAGgers are still at least capable of operating a computer or smartphone, but if you move even further down in tech-capabilities, it also becomes quite unlikely that those people will buy something from Microsoft to begin with.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by argonaut on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:30PM (#11899368)
9GAG does have a tech savvy community, that's my point.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:09AM (#11893989)
Here's the demographics of 9gag:

http://9gag.com/gag/3325624/9gag-demographics

They aren't consumers. Beyond that, Microsoft isn't a company that targets individuals. They make their money from companies. They don't need to care about 22 year olds that have $100k of student debt and will pirate most software anyway.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:17AM (#11893544)
The hacker news/imgur/9gag/reddit demographic is relatively young. Some of us definitely suffer a confirmation bias from the misrepresentation of ages, especially given the significant population of boomers.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by CRConrad on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:17AM (#11894533)
Actually, to many adults who have heard of the word "meme" it may mean "an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture", the intellectual equivalent of a biological gene -- not the newfangled meaning that the kids have hijacked the word for, "one of those silly pictures with text on". (Funny, didn't we already have terms for that? Poster, postcard...?)

It was originally coined by Richard Dawkins (way back, before he went senile); perhaps in _The selfish gene_. HTH!

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bduerst on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:34AM (#11894685)
There's also negative press as well that's immortalized on the internet, such as the anti-poaching NPO in Africa where the update took all their bandwidth and crashed their machines - effectively blacking out their surveillance on the poachers for a time.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Silhouette on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:23AM (#11894590)
But a lot of people who make purchasing decisions for their business are.

And a lot of people who advise non-technical friends and family on technical matters are, too.

Also, Windows 10 updates have broken so many things for so many people that it seems quite a few of my less technically inclined friends and family are aware of the potential problems anyway.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by prirun on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:20AM (#11893586)
I went to a store once, and their cash registers were down because a Windows update was forced on them. One was working, 2 weren't. A store manager was on the phone with some tech support guy and was not happy.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by lloyd-christmas on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:31AM (#11893669)
I went to a store once and that didn't happen. I work in a building of 1000 people. MAYBE 30-50 of them cared, and half those people still won't act on it. People are trying their hardest to find allies. When it comes down to it, consumers are perfectly OK with the status quo. The status quo is Microsoft doing whatever they want. "Everyone" hates Monsanto, yet they still are one of the largest companies in the world. "Everyone" hates Goldman Sachs, yet every retirement portfolio is filled with their products.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by overgryphon on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:30AM (#11894650)
They shouldn't have been using the consumer version. I can sympathize, but that business both violated their license and ignored nine months of news and popups about the windows 10 update.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by Silhouette on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:42AM (#11894743)
It seems we're talking about cash registers here. If their software happened to be running on Windows but the business bought them as self-contained devices, I'm not sure why the business staff would necessarily even have realised Windows was running on them, never mind been responsible for any software licence agreements or the like. The supplier of those cash registers might have made mistakes here, but the business staff are well justified in being upset at critical devices stopping working because of something like this.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by ZanyProgrammer on Monday June 13, 2016 @08:59AM (#11893378)
By that standard, Ballmer doubling down on the shitty enterprise software that still makes gobs of money was a good strategy.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tunap on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:06AM (#11893447)
And the lobbyists have made the spurious practices, ala 'GatorWallet', OK for the "good guys" so it's no longer illegal, either.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tunap on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @05:49PM (#11957299)
A little late, but for the downvoters' edification, see if you can spot the conflict of interest when a fortmer Gator/Claria exec joins the DHS Data Privacy & Integrity Advisory Comittee. Feel free to check the other members' agendas:

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?...

Or, here's the legwork done for you from 2011: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/11/30/bfp-report-meet-t...

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by bauc on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:22AM (#11893599)
Might make people wake up and look at alternatives finally (can hope). I'm definitely thinking Win 7 is my last Windows OS.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by nkassis on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:29AM (#11894139)
The alternative all have their issue too. I think Win 10 has a lot going for it right now, it's hardly the worse OS of the major one available now days.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by asadlionpk on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:01AM (#11893391)
iOS is the same, I see "update to 9.something" everyday! Same goes for iTunes when you plug in your phone.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by yeowMeng on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:09PM (#11894999)
The difference is when I update on iOS 9.something things will work.

When I update windows, I have to buy a new printer or, the headphone jack no longer works...

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by arsalanb on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:18AM (#11893561)
Any time Microsoft is criticized for making the most boring tech out there, and looking like an uninspired company, there's always one person to hit back at Apple (and more often than not, the iPhone/iOS)
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by SmellyGeekBoy on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:20AM (#11894080)
It's almost as if most software sucks. I often wonder why people feel the need to give into their tribal urges and pick sides.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by throwaway1979 on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:44AM (#11893783)
I just disabled forced update on my box. It was shocking that MSFT did not make the process straightforward. Ended up downloading a third party tool. Shocking!

Recent MSFT behavior was making me think they've changed. I guess not. This genius acquisition indicates the old MSFT is alive and well. Given the dollar amount, the good news is that they can't do too many of these moves without sinking their ship.

Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by slowmotiony on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:56AM (#11893872)
Before Satya was CEO, it was normal to see a bunch of Nokia Lumia phones in every bus, tram or metro train in Germany. Right now it would be hard to find even one, and Windows Phone seems to be an abandoned project. So I cannot entirely agree that Satya is so much better as a CEO than Ballmer.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by billmalarky on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:17AM (#11894054)
Ballmer lost the mobile battle, not Satya, by the time Satya took control (Feb. 2014) it was too late in the game to make a difference. Just throwing good money after bad at that point.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by sandGorgon on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:17AM (#11894056)
Maybe that's why Satya is a good CEO. He pulled them away from an unprofitable money sink that was created by Ballmer.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by tokensimian on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:05AM (#11893947)
That's a pretty specific set of situational criteria by which to evaluate the head of a company that does a whole lot of different things.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by slowmotiony on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @02:06AM (#11907433)
Not really. It's not a secret that Windows Phone is now rather a joke, and nobody is buying it. It used to be very popular in Europe around 2 years ago.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by partiallypro on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:53AM (#11894311)
Well, Microsoft has effectively killed off Lumia, and will be focusing on the Surface Phone and its OEM partners. They have said this year they will not be focusing on marketing Windows Mobile (frankly, it's not ready,) but I imagine once Surface Phone is made reality, they will be pushing the phones again, but mostly to enterprise and Microsoft fanboys/girls.
Re:Microsoft to acquire LinkedIn for $26B by coldtea on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:34AM (#11893698)
Have they? Business wise? Or because he likes open source (which is orthogonal and irrelevant to the discussion)?