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Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by ChuckMcM on Sunday June 05, 2016 @02:56PM (#11842454)
This sums up Google in a single paragraph:

In 2015 Nest posted job listings for its "Nest Audio Team." The team would be responsible for "developing an audio roadmap for Nest products." Industry observers suspected the audio team was building a smart Bluetooth speaker, but Google beat Nest to the punch with Google Home, an Amazon Echo-style Bluetooth speaker and voice assistant appliance. According to a report from The Information, when Nest found out about Google Home, it asked to work on the project with Google. Nest's request was turned down. We can only guess why—maybe Nest's reputation inside Google had something to do with it?

Often times Google has multiple projects doing effectively the same "thing" going at the same time. They don't work together because the idea is to have the team that can get to the "finish line" first to win, not to co-operate. This, as it was explained to me by an engineering director there, was to encourage a 'natural selection mechanism that selected for the best teams and the best products.'

While I understood the idea, that you would pit your own resources against each other like that was kind of foreign to me. My own personal learning from that, having watched them for 15 years, four of which from the inside, is that as a way of managing a company it produces few viable products and no viable businesses.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by fiatmoney on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:03PM (#11842500)
The notion of internal competition is really tricky, since you're also competing externally. If you believe in the classic explanations of the theory of the firm, "companies" exist so they can be effectively communist on the inside in an attempt to lower transaction costs. If you have teams competing against each other directly for resources, time-to-market, etc. you don't really have a reason to be a single company anymore.

OTOH, a little bit of internal competition to penalize complacency, if there's not too much wasting of resources, is probably a good thing. It's been fairly common IME for different teams to be working on very related concepts (eg, HPC platforms for different tasks), with a sort of implicit understanding that the team that does well will be able to do the logical extension of the project, and the team that doesn't will work on something else.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by jessriedel on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:20PM (#11843191)
> If you believe in the classic explanations of the theory of the firm, "companies" exist so they can be effectively communist on the inside in an attempt to lower transaction costs. If you have teams competing against each other directly for resources, time-to-market, etc. you don't really have a reason to be a single company anymore.

Sure you do. It allows someone at the top to flip the switch between market and central command. Ideal firm size and vertical consolidation varies between industries, and plausibly varies in different environments, different times, etc.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by OpenDrapery on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:48PM (#11848703)
Ha! The team that "loses" gets to go try something new, and the team that "wins" gets to take their new product into maintenance/bug fix/enhancement mode?

Looks like the joke is on the winning team.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by GFK_of_xmaspast on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:30PM (#11842960)
See also what happened to Sears when the CEO tried to apply objectivist principles.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by GFK_of_xmaspast on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:09PM (#11843638)
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by capitalsigma on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:12PM (#11843410)
I don't think it's objectivist at all -- it's somewhere between "let's not put all our eggs in one basket" and "it's unlikely we got it 100% the first time so don't be afraid to start from scratch."
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:35PM (#11842680)
Where can I find more information about the theories that claim companies exist to be communist?

I don't buy the "first to win argument", but it would seem useful to take multiple approaches to solving the same or similar problems.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by abtinf on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:01PM (#11842814)
"Communist" is a loaded word, but it gets at the idea.

One of the thorniest problems in business economics is this: we know free markets produce extraordinary results, but why is it that even in the absence of regulation, so little of the economy is structured as a free market? Very few businesses of any size operate internally as a market, instead they usually operate under hierarchical command and control. Markets generally exist only at the interfaces between organizations.

Why don't teams bid competitively within a company? How do individuals decide on the teams to form? Why are managers allowed to rise to the point of failure? Why do we pay people salaries instead of hourly wages? Why do we hire hourly wage labor as if though its was permanent?

The number of questions raised by this topic is endless.

The most general explanation is this: yes, companies adopt inefficient structures, but they more than make up for this through significantly reduced transaction costs.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by danieltillett on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:55PM (#11843346)
I have always thought that it was because the level of planning required to run a small to medium sized company is just able to be handled by the human mind. Economy level planning is just too complex for humans and we have to fall back on the next most efficient structure - free markets.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by bane on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:11PM (#11844053)
In highly competitive environments, humans tend to adopt a "single executive" type organizational structure. In short, there needs to be a single decision maker who can set strategy, make decisions, approve direction and so on at at least the rate of the competition. Committee systems work fine when things are more steady state and there's less existential threat.

Nations almost all adopt an executive system because nations compete. The U.N. doesn't because Earth doesn't have to compete with anything else. Imagine a competitive interplanetary situation and you can bet the Secretary General of the U.N. would quickly gain significant decision making powers.

Collectivist market philosophies tend to be built on the assumption that there will be no competition internally and thus can be run by various committees. However, even countries trying to follow various types of collectivist ideologies ended up with single executive-types at the top, again because countries compete.

On the small scale, many indigenous tribal systems rely on a council during times of peace, and elect an executive (sometimes called a "war chief") during times of war.

The phrase "business is war" is particularly appropriate since most businesses operate like they're at war.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by wtbob on Sunday June 05, 2016 @10:29PM (#11844280)
> On the small scale, many indigenous tribal systems rely on a council during times of peace, and elect an executive (sometimes called a "war chief") during times of war.

That's how the Roman Republic operated, too: the Senate would elect a dictator for six months to handle certainly irregular situations. Unlike any other Roman official, he had no colleague who could countermand his orders, and he was not legally liable for any act he committed in office.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by OpenDrapery on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:51PM (#11848732)
"Why do we hire hourly wage labor as if though its was permanent?"

Could you give an example of this? Are you talking about using contractors to get through a project, and then keeping them on indefinitely after the project is over?

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by michaelmrose on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:33PM (#11842974)
"Why do we hire hourly wage labor as if though its was permanent?"

At the current cost of hourly labor if you made it even more like temporary labor than it already is the quality of worker you could obtain at that price would be terrible.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by tuna-piano on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:05PM (#11843626)
It's also interesting that we know opening up to external markets helps in some ways. For example, the app store.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by jsprogrammer on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:12PM (#11843150)
Some regulation is necessary to even define a free market.

If you believe current US (at least for most of the population) law theory, all employment relationships are completely at-will. They may be terminated at any time for any reason. I would argue that is all that is required for a free market. This would seem to contradict the claim that most companies to not internally operate as a market.

I know there exist serious breaches of this freedom (ie. slavery), but it is not supposed to be the norm anymore.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by Avshalom on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:41PM (#11842720)
Coase's Theory of the Firm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm

although I think fiatmoney is conflating a centrally planned command economy with communism.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:51PM (#11843050)
although I think fiatmoney is conflating a centrally planned command economy with communism.

Seems like a distinction without a difference, considering that every time a nation tries to implement the latter they end up with the former as an "intermediate stage" of the revolution that somehow never goes away.

In a corporate body, there is no pretense that central planning is a transitional stage. There are a few exceptions like Valve and Zappos, but even fewer genuine success stories where a non-hierarchical structure has outperformed traditional ones in the long run.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by Avshalom on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:00PM (#11843095)
Well the fascist countries for instance traditionally had a centrally planned command economy too, and 'fascist' (although that word has perhaps even more baggage than communism) is probably a closer fit to how companies act than 'communist'. Also while "crazy ass dictatorship" lacks any sort of unified political/economic manifesto, they always seem to end up looking like centrally planned economies too, though fewer companies of any real size end up as "crazy ass dictatorships" thanks to the magic of bureaucracy.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:36PM (#11843243)
Yes, in the US, "fascist" is a general-purpose insult directed at whatever politicians or parties the speaker doesn't like. One of those terms that brings more heat than light.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by Qworg on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:02PM (#11843613)
I think that Morningstar is an even better, non-tech example with lower skilled workers - it shows that self organization works, even in normal firms.

http://www.inc.com/audacious-companies/leigh-buchanan/mornin...

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by barney54 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @08:18PM (#11843882)
Read Ronald Coase's Nature of the Firm: http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~jsfeng/CPEC11.pdf It isn't really that firms are communist internally, but that firms exist to reduce transactions costs. Such as contracting for every thing every day (i.e. I don't need a new contract every single day at my job).
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by danidiaz on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:04PM (#11842835)
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by yongjik on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:17PM (#11843667)
While that can be a problem, it's tough to address at Google's scale. Consider the possible solutions:

(1) Top management tells everybody what to do. Result: No initiative from low-level employees.

(2) In case of conflicting projects, top management decides which team should continue. Result: Rampant internal politics.

(3) In case of conflicting projects, let all of them continue, and see which project wins the market. Result: Wasting resources; company looks disorganized to outsiders.

Some other companies (Apple?) avoid the problem by sticking to (1). However, many Google employees joined in the first place thanks to the tale of "A company where you can work on the problem you want to": it will be very tough for them to ditch the model wholesale, and it may harm the company in the long run.

I think Google does a bit of all three. While Google could certainly do better in some cases, it's not like Google's willfully ignoring an obvious solution.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by g9yuayon on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:28PM (#11848508)
The problem with 3) is not just wasted resources or company looking bad to outsiders. It also leads to rampant internal politics as people simply do everything in their power to win, or worse, to survive. Just to name a few common tricks: developing features secretly, not sharing resources or technologies, poaching coworkers from other teams, lobbying to get more resources, developing moating features instead of focusing on what users really need, and trading long-term objectives for short-term gains just to get to the so-called "finish line".
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by untog on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:03PM (#11843113)
I thought that really came through in I/O this year. The Allo team does not seem to be the same team as the one making Hangouts. Which is fine... except that has a Hangouts user I really wish they would dedicate themselves to a messaging app and actually make it good.

The more confusing one was web vs. native - there were a dozen sessions on progressive webapps, yet they barely got a mention in the keynote, while Instant Apps got a full showcase. Internal competition is all very well, but it's frustrating as a developer to not be able to get a clear answer as to which platform we ought to be developing for.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by rcthompson on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:36PM (#11842688)
Did they actually refer explicitly to "natural selection"? Because while natural selection has indeed produced some impressive results, it did so over billions of years, and not terribly efficiently, so I wouldn't generally consider it a model to be emulated, unless Google is really optimistic about how long the company is going to be around.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by ChuckMcM on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:53PM (#11842783)
Yes, they used that exact term, invoking Darwin at the same time. And I agree with you about the time frame.

I've been reading "The Vital Question"[1] of late and it has been the first book in a while where I've had several "oh that makes so much sense!" moments. And one of the tenets is that Darwin was correct in the small, and wrong in the large understandings of evolution.

Something that jumped out to me while reading it, is that information extraction drives our technology systems like energy drives biological systems. Read the book and then sit back and analyze Twitter as a multi-cellular organism with information as energy and individuals as cells. A sort of Datasaurus. Fun stuff.

[1] "The Vital Question: Energy, Evolution, and the Origins of Complex Life" -- http://www.amazon.com/Vital-Question-Evolution-Origins-Compl... based on the recommendation tweeted by Gates and comments here, I read it through cover to cover while camping, and now going through a second reading to pick up what I overlooked the first time.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by dexwiz on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:00PM (#11842478)
The flipside of the argument is a Project Managers hiring 9 women to have a baby in 1 month. Collaboration between teams does incur a cost. Working closely with a single team is easier than coordinating across multiple teams in multiple business units. The additional headcount may not offset the cost.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by ChuckMcM on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:59PM (#11842806)
That example from the mythical man month, however to really put it in context, it would be like hiring 9 pregnant women and giving a bonus to the first one to deliver a baby and aborting the other 8. And yes, that is an overreach because aborting a later term baby is a way more serious thing than canceling a project you've worked on for nearly a year. However, projects that were "late to deliver" were de-funded and it was really hard on the project leaders. When it happened I did not see it instilling in those engineers a desire to work harder and faster next time, rather it just made them cynical and bitter.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by bane on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:12PM (#11844058)
I think importantly, not all approaches requires equal time to achieve. Some approaches might have been more viable in the market if the PMs had simply been given more time to achieve the product rather than just tossing out the first thing to cross the finish line.

It really explains the sloppy state lots of Google products ship in.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by lostlogin on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:41PM (#11842721)
I'm slightly missing the point, but have to ask. Why 9?
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by dexwiz on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:44PM (#11842734)
Average pregnancy is 9 months long.

"Limited divisibility of tasks. Adding more people to a highly divisible task such as reaping a field by hand decreases the overall task duration (up to the point where additional workers get in each others way). Some tasks are less divisible; Brooks points out that while it takes one woman nine months to make one baby, "nine women can't make a baby in one month"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%99_law

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday June 06, 2016 @07:56AM (#11846071)
Average pregnancy may be 9 months long, but that's not even the right metric: the cycle time from one successful birth to the next is longer than that.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by lostlogin on Monday June 06, 2016 @09:33PM (#11851827)
Out of every nine women, less than 9 are able to have children once age and various conditions, medical history, choices etc come into play. I think I was over thinking the scenario...
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by mmanfrin on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:48PM (#11842756)
1 woman can make 1 baby in 9 months, so 9 women can make 1 baby in 1 month.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by JshWright on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:12PM (#11842874)
My wife recently made two babies in 33 weeks. That's less than half the average time per baby! Granted, they spent a combined total of 62 days in the NICU, but even accounting for that, we're still ahead, I think.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by stcredzero on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:27PM (#11842952)
Congrats! A premature baby in NICU might appear even cuter to many on the internet. The game and app reviewing public is less charitable to premature software, however.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by Normal_gaussian on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:45AM (#11844887)
62 days -> 9 weeks

42 weeks overall

4.33 weeks in a month

42 weeks -> just shy of 10 months

I'm not so sure if you are ahead on weeks. But you are ahead on kids! Congratulations and good luck

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by JshWright on Monday June 06, 2016 @07:55AM (#11846063)
You can only double count the babies' NICU time if you're looking at the average baby per week. We averaged 0.048 babies per week, as opposed to the baseline 0.025 babies per week.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by NLips on Monday June 06, 2016 @07:17AM (#11845870)
Well full-term is often given as actually being 37-42 weeks, with the due date estimate being 40 weeks (not 9 months), making 42 weeks a normal(ish) pregnancy duration.

Not that I want to derail the well-wishing!

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by pkaye on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:27PM (#11842945)
My own anecdotal experience I heard a much larger competitor in my line of work have 3 teams competing against each other for a product. All failed except one which tagged up with an external partner to build a solution for them. Apparently many large companies don't know what to do with all their employees. I spoke to some of them later after my company hired some and all some engineers hope for is to actually complete a project.

Something similar happened to one of my previous employers. We were less than 100 people and cranking out many successful projects. Once we got acquired and nearly quadrupled in size, none of the projects succeeded. Many of the early contributors left one by one due to frustrations and pressure including me. The new management style had changed everything.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by OpenDrapery on Monday June 06, 2016 @02:05PM (#11848854)
This is something I'm coming to grips with. Massive inefficiency is not just the domain of government agencies. There are plenty of firms in the private sector that have teams sitting idle, and the kicker is they are hiring!

It is not uncommon for a software developer to be asked to keep a seat warm in an open office seating environment. It feels very unnatural to be expected to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours and be given nothing to do. Some people convince themselves that they are riding the gravy train, others go crazy and leave to find actual work.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by stcredzero on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:22PM (#11842922)
Toyota has formalized internal competitions. The Prius drivetrain was the best out of a field of 10. Designs for new iPhones apparently work in a similar fashion. I think such formal structures produce very good results and are necessary to prevent destructive internal competition.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by ChuckMcM on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:21PM (#11843195)
For me, there is an interesting difference. On the one hand you can say "everyone compete on the next iPhone antenna design". That is one component out of an over all strategy. But proposing incremental improvements at Google when I was there was death, you were accused of "not thinking big enough" and everything had to be a "moonshot".

So you couldn't propose just a new antenna, you had to propose using an entirely different spectrum with entirely different rules and an entirely different platform architecture where voice service was one of many options rather than the main option. You don't get to propose re-inventing the phone, you have to re-invent telecommunications. One of those that got out of the door when I was there was the Google "wave" project. Its vision was so big it missed the fact that people just wanted Slack[1].

Bottom line is that competition within a structure is good, its something that lots of organizations have applied successfully. Google's style, when I was there, was never structured enough to head toward anything. It always went all directions at once, leaving the organization with a net zero momentum in any direction.

[1] Yes they are nearly a decade different in time frame, but as a 'dogfood' wave user and then later outside of Google it was pretty clear the "win" was the IRC replacement, none of the vision stuff was getting much traction but it was the way to go if you're group wanted to figure out which cafe to go to lunch at that day.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by stcredzero on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:17PM (#11843440)
But proposing incremental improvements at Google when I was there was death, you were accused of "not thinking big enough" and everything had to be a "moonshot".

Sounds like this was used as a bludgeon for attacking competitors.

Bottom line is that competition within a structure is good, its something that lots of organizations have applied successfully. Google's style, when I was there, was never structured enough to head toward anything. It always went all directions at once, leaving the organization with a net zero momentum in any direction.

My experience with such competition, is that groups actually tend to undermine each other instead of pulling together with cohesive effort. Here, the lowered cost of transactions within a company can allow other groups within a company to act as gatekeepers -- otherwise "enemy" in-company groups can be penalized with higher (outside company) transaction costs for getting things done. This is especially true when project budgets are made with in-company costs in mind.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by petra on Sunday June 05, 2016 @07:57PM (#11843801)
Do you get the impression they re-designed the organization, with moonshots at their moonshot factories, while incremental improvements at the rest of the org?
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by ChuckMcM on Monday June 06, 2016 @12:06AM (#11844588)
Given the discussions I've had with friends still there and friends who have left, I would say that yes, Google is constantly redesigning the organization. Oddly enough the experience was very similar to Sun Microsystems as it grew, it redesigned its own internal organization several times. It was a running joke at Sun that when a big re-org hit it was "some new chapter in the MBA handbook."

Google is famously data driven (even when it hurts) and has taken a lot of criticism (justified in my opinion) about not being able to create any new business outside of search and search advertising. I saw, and commented on, the Alphabet re-org as a way to get better visibility into the data coming from the organization. Spend vs revenue. Robots aren't carrying their weight? Toss them over. Making cell phones too hard? Sell it off.

If you work in companies like this long enough you begin to recognize that the organization can constrain what products you can even attempt to build. When the Sun "Voyager" (aka the 'portable') came out we joked that Sun could build any computer it wanted to, as long as you didn't mind it looking like a workstation. A partner Tadpole had built an actual laptop. But the Sun hardware engineering organization couldn't get there from a clean sheet of paper.

For that reason alone it is critical that Google keep re-organizing until they find a formula that works for them.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by petra on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:17PM (#11843176)
Could you please explain the last sentence ?
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by gnashville on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:31PM (#11843231)
I think he meant as opposed to informal (maybe petty, harmful) internal competition.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by stcredzero on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:18PM (#11843442)
See ChuckMcM's cousin comments.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by crabasa on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:59PM (#11842803)
Microsoft was famous for its internal competitions between engineering orgs:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/opinion/04brass.html?pa...

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by quanticle on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:53PM (#11843336)
Emphasis on was. It seems like these days Microsoft is moving towards more internal collaboration, with their "One Microsoft" initiative. They've found that greater focus on common, standard tools used across the entire company is better than having a bunch of teams, each rolling their own version of a given tool.

More to the point, isn't this exactly what Steve Jobs advised Larry Page not to do? Steve Jobs said, famously, to put "more wood behind fewer arrows". And for a while, it seems like the advice was sticking - Google shuttered a bunch of products (for better or for worse) and seemed to be buckling down to focus on the search and YouTube division. But now it seems like Google is going right back to how it used to be - many teams, working on many products, with no guarantee of ongoing development or support. It seems to me that Google is turning into the next Cisco.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by greggman on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:46PM (#11843556)
Personally I think it's great. Coordinating 57k people is very very hard. If you had to ask 57k people "Hey, I'm going to work on this, anyone else already doing something similar" the entire company would grind to a halt.

Sure there are mistakes but I don't think it's top down "team x" compete with "team y". It's more like both teams don't know about each other until the projects are far along. At which point might as well see which one does better... Or at least that seems to be the attitude at google.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by saalweachter on Sunday June 05, 2016 @10:18PM (#11844241)
I'm not sure I believe that's an intentional strategy or just a side-effect of size and the philosophy of letting teams start projects on their own.

So you have two teams somewhere in a company start a project at the same time.

Your challenge is, what does the corporate structure need to look like such that these two teams learn about each other's project early enough to collaborate?

If you rely on project information being passed up and down the corporate ladder, until one person learns that two subtrees of his reports are working on the same project, that's never going to work because bandwidth is reduced as you go up the tree, so less and less information is passed up, and early/experimental projects will frequently not make the cut and get filtered out. So your LCB will never hear about both projects.

If you just rely on direct communication between teams, you've got an N-squared problem as you grow, so that will never work.

If you try to give each team a carved out domain, new projects will frequently exist in the "chocolate & peanut butter" intersections, and both the "chocolate" and "peanut butter" teams will start the same project.

It's a difficult problem, and I'm not sure there's an answer between "companies should be small".

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by bane on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:03PM (#11844029)
I think the fundamental problem with this type of approach is that the ugly, sausage making, competition ends up getting aired too much with the public which creates market confusion and drives potential customers to places with a better, simpler story.

My understand is that great product companies, like Apple, also have a kind of Darwinian development practice, but only ever reveal the "winner" once it's clear that it's the winner.

As an outsider, Apple looks like it has strategy and vision, while Google looks completely baffling, even releasing and pulling products from the market within weeks or releasing clearly incomplete, barely beta level products with no real vision and just expecting the public to sort it out.

I mean, how many chat apps is google up to now?

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by kinkora on Sunday June 05, 2016 @09:29PM (#11844106)
> While I understood the idea, that you would pit your own resources against each other like that was kind of foreign to me. My own personal learning from that, having watched them for 15 years, four of which from the inside, is that as a way of managing a company it produces few viable products and no viable businesses.

Interesting you say this as the first example that I can think of is Apple themselves when Steve Jobs was forced out of the Apple Lisa team and he joined the Macintosh team which then became in direct competition with the Apple Lisa team. I don't need to expunge on that but i found it to be a very famous case study on how 2 internal teams in direct competition affected the company.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by CamperBob2 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:37PM (#11842995)
While I understood the idea, that you would pit your own resources against each other like that was kind of foreign to me. My own personal learning from that, having watched them for 15 years, four of which from the inside, is that as a way of managing a company it produces few viable products and no viable businesses.

I can't find any good citations online, but Electronic Arts was reputed to do that as well. Supposedly they'd put several developers on the same title, and whoever finished first got to ship.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by anotherhacker on Monday June 06, 2016 @07:14AM (#11845856)
Internal competition destroy's companies.

Deming said this over 40 years ago:

"The present system includes competition between people, teams, departments, divisions, students, schools and universities. Although economists have taught that competition will solve our problems, we now know that competition is destructive."

http://maaw.info/ArticleSummaries/ArtSumDeming93.htm

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by draw_down on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:54PM (#11848765)
As I recall Apple did a similar thing with the original iPhone OS, one team took the iPod software as a starting point and another took OS X as a starting point. I think I have that right.

If in the end it makes the best product it's probably worth the waste of having competing solutions. But that is kind of a big if. (I would say the iPhone passed that test, personally.)

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by awesomepantsm on Sunday June 05, 2016 @08:58PM (#11844013)
This type of practice is common in government work. Hire a dozen teams to make a thing by some deadline, and award the best result with a contract.

It seems wasteful, but as we can see here, clearly the Nest work style couldn't compete with Google, and so no need to waste further R&D. But until you didn't the contest, how could you know?

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by hkmurakami on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:37PM (#11843512)
My understanding is that MSFT operates in similar fashion. The difference is that none of the implementations get green lighted until some C level exec asks years later, "Hey why don't we do X?" Some other guy in the room will reply, "Sure, we have 4 versions of X. Which one do you want."
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by toyg on Sunday June 05, 2016 @06:51PM (#11843573)
That's what I thought while reading the post. Microsoft was infamous for internal divisions basically acting as separate companies, with divergent roadmaps, duplicated features and so on.

In this case, however, given the prominence that was originally placed on the acquisition (at a time when Google had no direct presence in home automation), I suspect that the original vision was to actually merge the two worlds. The Google rank&file probably learnt very quickly how toxic Fadell was, and then proceeded to keep Nest at arms' length and do their own thing, basically writing off the acquisition and hoping it will eventually go away.

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by technofiend on Sunday June 05, 2016 @10:55PM (#11844357)
Right before they went under Enron was doing the same thing: they felt having three teams compete for fastest to market was a competitive advantage and worth the wasted resources sunk into the two losing teams.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by pjmlp on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:50PM (#11843044)
Well if the reports are true, that is also what happened with Longhorn and later on with WinRT vs Desktop, meaning WinDev vs DevTools divisions at Microsoft.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by Nursie on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:31PM (#11842965)
That sort of thing is supposed to have been a lot of what was going on at nokia towards the time it started to really founder.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by kristianc on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:35PM (#11842988)
It's proven incredibly successful as an approach for Dentsu in Japan.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by walshemj on Sunday June 05, 2016 @03:56PM (#11842795)
Hmm this is how Hitler ran Germany and why they had multiple research programs competing with each other - not sure its a good model to follow
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by asdfologist on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:05PM (#11842840)
Hitler also spoke German and ate 3 meals a day - not sure it's a good model to follow.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by walshemj on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:49PM (#11843320)
The German competing fiefdoms method caused real problems when the allies got a good enough design and cranked it out like the T34, sten gun and arguably the Sherman tank
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by sdenton4 on Sunday June 05, 2016 @04:03PM (#11842828)
Meh. The us military does this, too. It's pretty common.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by arethuza on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:09PM (#11843140)
It's why the UK had 3 different types of strategic bombers - developed by different teams and with different levels of risk and performance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_bomber

Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by walshemj on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:46PM (#11843299)
Ah like in ww2 where the Army and Navy intelligence refused to cooperate unlike BP did.
Re:Nest’s time at Alphabet by walshemj on Sunday June 05, 2016 @05:47PM (#11843305)
Your tax dollars at work :-)