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Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by mikegioia on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:24AM (#8997708)

    Using this authority, I am submitting to my colleagues the strongest
    open internet protections ever proposed by the FCC. These enforceable,
    bright-line rules will ban paid prioritization, and the blocking and 
    throttling of lawful content and services. I propose to fully 
    apply—for the first time ever—those bright-line rules to mobile 
    broadband. My proposal assures the rights of internet users to go
    where they want, when they want, and the rights of innovators to 
    introduce new products without asking anyone’s permission.
I can't believe I'm reading those words!
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by frostirosti on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:40AM (#8997800)
Tom Wheeler has really outdone himself with this announcement. It'll apply to mobile networks as well! Turns out this dingo knows how to stand up for what's right!

I know it's early but this is a great step forward.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by coldpie on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:01PM (#8998393)
I'm really impressed with Wheeler. When he was nominated, all the news was about how he was a lobbyist for the cable companies, and it was a perfect example of cronyism. But he's really been knocking it out of the park. Aggressive on net neutrality, redefining broadband, trying to restore municipal Internet. I'm very glad to have been wrong about my initial impressions.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by rayiner on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:16PM (#8998976)
Note: he was a cable lobbyist from 1976-1984, long before cable internet was a thing. He was a wireless industry lobbyist from 1992-2004, but the proposed "light touch" regime looks a lot like what has been applied to the wireless industry for years.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by aptwebapps on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:53PM (#9001806)
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Apocryphon on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:08PM (#8998919)
"Only Nixon could go to China." - Vulcan proverb
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Forbo on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:32PM (#8999537)
For anyone who, like me, is/was not familiar with this phrase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by morganvachon on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:50PM (#8998781)
I had the same initial impression. All I can think is that he was in "the business" for so long, he was able to see its pitfalls and shortcomings, and chose to take the high road and do right by The People. He sounds like a genuinely good person, rare in American politics.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by alexqgb on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:48PM (#8999640)
He actually dealt with the initial skepticism about his background in a very straightforward way. In essence, he said "Yes, I was a cable lobbyist, but that a long time ago, when cable companies were very much the outsiders with a crazy seeming business model ("Pay? For TV?") and navigating the maze of telco regulations was a matter of life-or-death. Now my former clients are big and on the inside. It's a very different world. The point is, I actually understand what life is like for those on the outside looking in, and my commitment is to the next generation of people in that position."

Again, I'm paraphrasing. And I had no idea (at the time) whether he was being sincere, or just really slick in his deflections. As of today it's looking like the former, and not the latter.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tzs on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:50PM (#8999657)
> When he was nominated, all the news was about how he was a lobbyist for the cable companies, and it was a perfect example of cronyism

That's because much of the tech press prefers sensationalism to get clicks over accurate reporting to inform readers. Here's a comment I made last week on another forum that covers what the tech press should have told us about Wheeler a long time ago, but didn't.

-----------------

It's important to note when he worked for cable. Much of the reporting in the tech press gives the impression he came straight from some high paid lobbying job with Comcast to the FCC.

In reality, he didn't work for any one cable company, but rather was the president of their main trade association, and that was from 1976 to 1984. That was a time when the internet was still just for military, defense contractors, and major computer science and engineering universities. There were around 1000 computers on the internet then. The opening up of the internet for civilians, starting with the creation of NSFNet by the National Science Foundation, wasn't to start until 1985, and it wasn't until 1992 that the web was released.

So when he was a cable guy, it was all about television. Cable as an industry was also much smaller than it is now, and it was divided among many more companies. They were the upstarts, challenging the big broadcasters. Being pro-cable was arguably being pro-consumer.

From 1992 to 2004, he was president of CTIA, the main cellular trade group. By then, the public internet was well under way, but it was mostly wired. Internet on phones was available, but it was more of a novelty or an expensive luxury, with voice and text being the main interest most people had in cellular. CTIA lobbied, of course, but they also had a major role in setting technology standards. Wheeler represented the industry in discussions with the FCC to draft the rules that we now have for cellular voice, which in retrospect worked out well (and are the basis for the Title II proposal he's expected to reveal).

It's also important to note that cell phones in 1992, when he joined CTIA, were not nearly as common as they are today. There was much less infrastructure in place, and you paid by the minute. They were past the point where you'd stare openly in wonder if you saw someone with one, but still were something you had to work to find a good reason to justify their purchase.

The key thing to note here is that when he has worked as a sort-of lobbyist (I say "sort-of" because both times he was president of a trade association that had lobbying as just one function), it was for industries that were young and had a lot of promise to bring great things to consumers, and his work for those industries as far as I've been able to tell helped consumers, and the customers of those industries were better off when he left than when he started.

He seems to basically be a telecom policy nerd. Heck, he even does telecom stuff in his non-professional capacity. Only a telecom nerd would write a 250 page book called "Mr. Lincoln's T-Mails: The Untold Story of How Abraham Lincoln Used the Telegraph to Win the Civil War" [1].

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Lincolns-T-Mails-Abraham-Telegraph/...

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by rpgmaker on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:47PM (#9001786)
Oh please: stop with the revisionist BS just because he apparently came around the issue, after a very public and direct presidential nod no less. His is a classical revolving door story. He didn't intend to classify the internet under Title II but was forced to (anyone remembers his first _actual_ proposal? The internet does have a very short memory). Now, you can say that he genuinely changed his mind in the last few months or so but it's more likely that the cumulative effect of the activism around the issue (the apex probably being John Oliver's net neutrality bit) and the president's request were the deciding factors.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:51PM (#9001795)
> Oh please: stop with the revisionist BS just because he apparently came around the issue, after a very public and direct presidential nod no less.

Wheeler has been one of the three members of the FCC favoring pro-neutrality regulation for quite some time. Its true that he recently came around to the view that Title II was an appropriate vehicle for that regulation, but he's been a supporter of FCC action to enforce neutrality principles for quite some time, as demonstrated by the previous Open Internet Report and Order, the last NPRM in which he took one of the two paths toward enforcing those principles laid out in the court decision striking down the old Open Internet Report and Order, and his new move to use Title II, the other path laid out in that court decision.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tmandry on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @08:32PM (#9001246)
> That's because much of the tech press prefers sensationalism to get clicks over accurate reporting to inform readers.

s/tech press/press/

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by droopyEyelids on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @10:10PM (#9001545)
This is a more politically correct restatement of #allLivesMatter.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by ejain on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:43PM (#8999611)
I don't know Wheeler, but don't understand why having been a lobbyist (or aspiring to be one again) would make him more "friendly" to that industry: The tougher he is on them, the more they should eventually be willing to pay him to switch sides again, right?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wpietri on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:32PM (#9001032)
I think that assumes such a high level of venality that I wouldn't bet on it.

The people I consider most dangerous to the public in regulatory positions aren't the ones who actively aim to undermine. They're they ones who just have such a strong sympathy with the regulated that they can't conceive of other ways to look at it.

Good regulation requires both deep respect and deep skepticism. Think, for example, of people who make sure restaurant kitchens are safe for the public. They have to respect the purpose of restaurants and the people who run them; otherwise they'll be ineffectively fussy or crabby. But their whole job is to never let those people slide. So as much as they understand and empathize with how hard and expensive it is run a restaurant, they still have to be willing to take the consumer's side say, "Yes, it's expensive, but you still have to throw out that $2k of meat." And mean it.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by rudolf0 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @04:22PM (#8999922)
If he did so, he'd seem more like a greedy opportunist rather than someone genuinely interested in pushing the industry's goals.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by oldmanjay on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @05:58PM (#9000609)
It's good to require purity from people. It teaches them to lie to everyone so they can meet an unmeetable standard.

See also: all modern politics.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by krenoten on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @05:00PM (#9000260)
I don't think that's perceived as a negative in that particular line of work.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tootie on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:01PM (#8998868)
I have this weird feeling that this whole drama was a long con by Obama and Wheeler to tease out as much vocal support as possible by playing the villain. Like Wheeler was a heel in professional wrestling. They put out a shitty proposal that the ISPs would love just to show them how strong public opposition would be so they'd be perfectly positioned to go full neutrality and claim a public mandate.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by ep103 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:55PM (#8999271)
If that was the case, then they would have prepared their servers to actually handle the load. As it stands, we know they lost millions of records of input
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by smhenderson on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:49PM (#8999650)
Thanks again John Oliver!
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by gordjw on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:12PM (#8999394)
And that focused the public's attention even more.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tzs on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:58PM (#8999720)
The ISPs did not love the first proposal.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by datawhoring on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:54PM (#8999260)
agreed. this level of f-u to the whims of wealthy individuals and their entrenched corporations is unheard of.

i work for a smaller cable company and it has been getting very deep lately.

sad thing is management doesn't seem to get that the grunts don't care. we never profit from the monopolies. every year we get some bs excuse why we won't be getting a raise this year even though reading the quarterly earnings and know what were spending on upgrades and know there is a lot left over that goes somewhere.

knowing how high the margins are in the industry, how little they pay, how lean things are already run its going to get bad.

if competition is somehow injected into the market and they are happy with a fraction of what the incumbents are currently enjoying would be devastating. there is very little left to cut at the bottom, and those at the top can't possibly be expected to not get their rockstar paydays.

what also could happen is the exodus of employees from existing cable companies to the new ones that would sprout up. even though the grass isn't always greener somewhere else, it won't stop those from finally having a choice.

don't get me wrong. I have zero problem with someone making a 100 million a year, but only when that comes after everyone from push broom and toilet brush to company car and private jet are all paid the highest for their position for a company that size. unfortunately almost everywhere you can go that isn't the case.

I've heard a lot of discussion how making ISPs a utility would just entrench the monopolies even further... what od you think?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by deciplex on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @08:48PM (#9001303)
> I have zero problem with someone making a 100 million a year

Maybe you should have a problem with it.

I get what you're saying, that there may not be anything immoral about being extravagantly compensated, and in principle I agree with that. However, there is also something to be said for the overwhelming amount of political power that such wealth brings.

It may be that we want to avoid such concentrations of wealth not out of a sense of fairness, but to keep people from hijacking our democracy.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by explorigin on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:18PM (#8999424)
Did you read the article?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by alexryan on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:17PM (#9001390)
Big mistake. Government regulation kills innovation.

Do you really want the technology sector to end up looking like the healthcare system or the state run education system? Everything government touches turns to crap.

To believe that government regulation with make anything better is not very intelligent.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by reberhardt on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:50PM (#9001478)
In contrast, I'd suggest that in this case, government regulation might actually promote innovation. It'll help get rid of the dirty money-milking schemes and promote increasing revenues with real forward progress
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by NamTaf on Thursday February 05, 2015 @01:47AM (#9002071)
Yes, you really do. Just not the American versions of those things, because Americans screw those things up, not Government.

Look outside your country and those things are very good successes.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Amezarak on Friday February 06, 2015 @10:27AM (#9009380)
Americans have the unusual belief that it's a good idea to elect and appoint members of government that believe government is good for nothing and can't do anything right.

For some reason this attitude has not led to effective, efficient governance.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by usefulcat on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:21PM (#9001406)
> Everything government touches turns to crap.

By that extremely simplistic logic, we should have no laws at all.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dreamdu5t on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:19PM (#9001701)
By that logic, laws would be created by a free market in law (polycentric court system).
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Thursday February 05, 2015 @01:06AM (#9001994)
A "free market in law" is either (a) not a free market (as participation in a transaction is not fully voluntary for all participants), or (b) not law.

Most likely, both.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dreamdu5t on Thursday February 05, 2015 @01:47PM (#9005036)
> as participation in a transaction is not fully voluntary for all participants

What transaction are you referring to not being voluntary? Transactions in the economic sense are by definition voluntary. Without a monopoly on law, people hire courts of their choosing to settle disputes. They are not compelled by a third party to settle disputes in the third party's court. Most importantly, they are not compelled by a third party to use the third party's law. They may each have their own laws even.

More about polycentric law: http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/JurisPoly.html

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Thursday February 05, 2015 @02:20PM (#9005274)
> Transactions in the economic sense are by definition voluntary.

No, they aren't, which is why we distinguish with the term "free market" the platonic ideal of an economic situation in which all transactions are fully voluntary.

> They may each have their own laws even.

If each party may have their own laws, those aren't actually "laws" in any meaningful sense.

> More about polycentric law: http://www.tomwbell.com/writings/JurisPoly.html

I find it interesting that that article highlights exactly why the historical systems described as polycentric legal systems (which are not, in any meaningful sense, a "free market of laws") tend toward natural monopoly and solidification into state law, apparently without realizing it, stating that defectors from such a system "would then have to either accept the jurisdiction of its courts or suffer ostracism from the community of law-abiding folk."

Of course, that effect not only applies to accepting some of the available choices in a polycentric system, but also accepting both the particular "law" (a rule system that becomes binding retroactively only after a dispute occurs and a forum chosen is hardly "law" in the normal sense, but...) and particular courts preferred by the most powerful groups in the community.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dreamdu5t on Thursday February 05, 2015 @03:59PM (#9006055)
> I find it interesting that that article highlights exactly why the historical systems described as polycentric legal systems (which are not, in any meaningful sense, a "free market of laws") tend toward natural monopoly and solidification into state law, apparently without realizing it, stating that defectors from such a system "would then have to either accept the jurisdiction of its courts or suffer ostracism from the community of law-abiding folk."

Huh? Law is enforced whether polycentric or monopolistic. I don't see what that has to do with the evolution of monopolistic statutory law.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by rtpg on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:20PM (#9001404)
yeah, really ruined all those wonderful trust in the 1900's. Really hate cheap steel.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by kindofanger on Thursday February 05, 2015 @12:31AM (#9001906)
Yes. The telecoms are government regulated, and they suck. Now the internet can be regulated likewise, and start to suck. Any time the government offers something, it expects much in return.

I'd rather have Google, et al, provide a market solution to this, by aggressively expanding Fiber without regulation, and laying down a secondary network to compete with Comcast/Time Warner. As it stands this is starting to look more and more like an attempt to maintain power for the traditional shitty telecoms, while also taking a slice out of Google's pie.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by myth_buster on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:32PM (#8998187)
This reads exceedingly well but the devil is in the detail. As we have seen countless times that there is significant difference between what gets proposed and what gets passed. As others have stated

> will ban paid prioritization, and the blocking and throttling of lawful content and services.

the keyword here is lawful. Will all content be lawful unless proven otherwise?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by andrewfong on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:48PM (#8998764)
In this context, "lawful" is probably intended to refer to categories of content than any particular instance. That is, it leaves the door open for blocking known categories of unlawful content like child porn, pirated software, malware, and maybe spam. Depending on implementation, this could definitely be problematic -- e.g. will Comcast interpret this as carte blanche to block BitTorrent if the majority of BitTorrent use is unlawful?

But it's still a huge net gain for startups, most of which fall safely on the lawful side of the line.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wooter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:46PM (#8999630)
definitely not a gain for start ups considering the legal climate towards things like ride share.

> In this context, "lawful" is probably...

If I've learned anything about law and politics, its that you can practically toss the context. If it can be twisted, it will be twisted more ways than you can imagine. Something like 90+% of "terrorist" surveillance usage is used for non-violent drug crime and they don't even have to disclose it (if you really push, they'll give you 'parallel reconstruction').

I'm sure at one point, someone in DC said something along the lines of "We will only prevent terrorist activity" (where terrorist is at least related to terrorism... probably...)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pyre on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:51PM (#8998309)
Does this mean that (e.g.) specific cities can petition ISPs to block (e.g.) Uber in their area because it's not "lawful?"
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:38PM (#8999131)
> Does this mean that (e.g.) specific cities can petition ISPs to block (e.g.) Uber in their area because it's not "lawful?"

It means that actually blocking, throttling, (or, for that matter, paid prioritization, though that will fall afoul of other laws) of unlawful content is not a violation of this particular set of FCC rules.

It has no effect (positive or negative) on the pre-existing ability of ISPs, with or without a third-party request, to block unlawful content. Of course, because it is a federal rule, any local request seeking to block unlawful content that would also (or actually) block lawful content would be preempted by the federal rule prohibiting blocking lawful content, so it would constrain the kinds of actions that could be taken in pursuit of blocking unlawful content. But, in any case, any ability cities would have under this rule to request blocking Uber, etc., would be no more ability than they have without the rule.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by geofft on Thursday February 05, 2015 @12:13AM (#9001863)
I had trouble understanding this comment at first, I think you're comparing "net neutrality under this rule" with "no net neutrality required by law" (i.e., status quo), whereas the comment thread is, I think, comparing "net neutrality under this rule" with "net neutrality under an even stronger rule that does not have an exception for unlawful content".

That said, I'm really curious how preemption plays into this. For instance, if federal law is silent on the selling of some particular thing, and local law says that selling that thing is a crime, and there's a federal law that e.g. makes it a crime to interfere with "lawful" interstate commerce, and I interfere with you selling that thing, did I commit a federal crime? I can see arguments both ways that make sense to me as a layman, but I'm sure there's a standard answer to this.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by djur on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @04:37PM (#9000067)
Probably not. It would be an exceptional deviation from existing understanding of the First Amendment, to put it lightly. The cases where blocking speech is permitted in the US involve distributing material that is illegal to possess or distribute (stuff distributed in violation of copyright, for instance).

In the case of Uber, what might be illegal is purchasing service from them (or them selling it to you). Them telling you about their service, even if it's illegal in your jurisdiction, is protected speech.

Cannabis is currently illegal to possess or purchase in my state (although not for long). It's still legal for me to read High Times or websites selling commercial products that are legal in Colorado. It'd be illegal for me to place an order.

(And if it's permitted under the proposed regulatory environment, it's probably permitted now, too.)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by oconnore on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:13PM (#8998477)
If a federal/state/local government declares something illegal, they can shut it down within their jurisdiction. There is no "I'm on the internet so you can't enforce laws" get out of jail free card.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by davorak on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:27PM (#8998609)
The main concern seemed to be weather or not it was on the burden of the state to prove illegal content before blocking or if it was on the user to prove their content is legal to prevent blocking.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Karunamon on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:35PM (#8998676)
Not sure why it would be different in this case - the general common law rule is that doing a thing is de facto permitted unless a law says otherwise.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by davorak on Thursday February 05, 2015 @02:19PM (#9005256)
> the general common law rule is that doing a thing is de facto permitted unless a law says otherwise.

Sure but if the law is vague than the enforcement can be broad or narrow depending on case law and the interpretation of judges.

It is less risky to run a business in an area where the law is more clear cut.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Retra on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @05:23PM (#9000412)
I imagine it would be the burden of the ISP to prove illegal content before blocking. They're the ones doing the blocking, and if they block the wrong stuff, they're the ones going to court.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Thursday February 05, 2015 @02:22PM (#9005284)
> I imagine it would be the burden of the ISP to prove illegal content before blocking.

More likely, it would be their burden to do so after blocking, when a violation of the no-blocking-lawful-content rule was alleged.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pyre on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:59PM (#8998854)
Well, the Uber site isn't distributing illegal content, so should the Uber site be shutdown or should they just be going after Uber via the courts (where a judge could order Uber to suspend operations)?

I was stating that you could see city government trying to get the Uber site blocked to local ISP customers as a way to side-step the court system.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:15PM (#9000978)
> Well, the Uber site isn't distributing illegal content

If Uber's service is illegal, the content the site is delivering, insofar as it is solicitation to engage in an illegal exchange, may also be illegal.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pyre on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:10PM (#9001677)
This sounds like trying to make it illegal for Uber to own a telephone number because they are operating an illegal taxi service. It doesn't make sense. Go after the company in court, don't attempt to find ways around the court system.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by walterbell on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @04:00PM (#8999739)
Since regulation would apply to mobile data, traffic to the Uber app could be blocked.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by metaphorm on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:24PM (#8998568)
this isn't an act of congress though. its regulations that the FCC has the authority to create and implement. if Wheeler says thats how it is, then that's how it is. regulations can be challenged at court but until that happens they will stick.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by obsurveyor on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:28PM (#8998616)
Congress can gut FCC's power to decide these things though, that's what the Republicans want.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by metaphorm on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:37PM (#8998694)
1. its not clear that that's what a congressional majority wants. there is a faction of congress that is aligned with ISPs that wants that, but there is also a large faction of congress aligned differently. i don't think this issue breaks along strictly D vs. R party lines.

2. an act of congress that diminishes the authority of the FCC would have to be signed by Obama, which he will not do. there is no faction in congress now that has a veto proof majority.

3. there is immense popular support for net neutrality and any action taken by congress against it is likely to lead to immediate and intense political pressure on those members of congress. lets not forget this country is still a democracy (mostly). the congressional representatives act against public interest at their own peril.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:44PM (#8998740)
> i don't think this issue breaks along strictly D vs. R party lines.

There's a little bit of fuzzing on the boundaries, but this issue has been the focus of lots of legislative action since it first became a controversy, and its pretty consistently been a large majority of Republicans opposing FCC action for neutrality and neutrality generally. And, over the years, the partisan alignment has increasingly solidified.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by slowmovintarget on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:14PM (#9001691)
The Republicans were right to oppose FCC action for "neutrality" when what it really meant (at the time) was the ability to monitor and censor conservative blogs.

The recent moves have been lobbyist-inspired, though. Sad.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Thursday February 05, 2015 @09:18AM (#9003325)
> The Republicans were right to oppose FCC action for "neutrality" when what it really meant (at the time) was the ability to monitor and censor conservative blogs.

The Federal Communications Commission Open Internet -- the thing the FCC has done addressing what is known in public discourse as "net neutrality" -- principles haven't substantially changed, though details of the approach to advancing them have, and neither the principles nor the implementation approaches have ever included monitoring and censoring conservative blogs. And the GOP has been opposed to FCC regulating non-blocking and non-discrimination for all lawful content by broadband ISPs for years.

You seem to be confusing what is itself a misrepresentation of the Federal Elections Commission -- a completely different agency -- discussions on rules for political ad disclosures in the wake of a 2005 Federal court ruling requiring them not to exempt all internet communication from the scope of "public communication" in their rules with the FCC's Open Internet rules.

(Or perhaps confusing something that was an even bigger misrepresentation of Federal Trade Commission rules on online general advertising disclosures.)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by ejain on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:39PM (#8999581)
Congress is "pro-fundraising". Leaving this matter to the FCC, or issuing clear legislation for or against Net Neutrality isn't as conducive to future fundraising as muddled legislation is...
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by andrewfong on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:51PM (#8998786)
The President can still veto though, and Obama's been pretty supportive of net neutrality recently. So we'll at least have net neutrality around for a little under two years. After that, the hope is that sheer inertia keeps things from reverting.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Alupis on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:29PM (#8998625)
> if Wheeler says thats how it is, then that's how it is

Not entirely. It's a proposal, which must be voted on by the rest of the FCC committee. It's unlikely everyone on the committee will agree 100%, but I'd also contend it's unlikely for this to not pass in and around it's current state.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by niels_olson on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:42PM (#8998731)
Anyone care to bet the cable companies will take a no-holds-barred attempt to delay this until after the presidential election?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @08:55PM (#9001320)
> Anyone care to bet the cable companies will take a no-holds-barred attempt to delay this until after the presidential election?

They'll probably just sue to invalidate it once the FCC finalizes it (they may seek a preliminary injunction preventing enforcement as part of that, as well); there isn't much they can do in the way of delaying it otherwise.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:06PM (#8999347)
He got a 3/2 split on the redefinition of broadband with one of the yeas publicly admitting that she would have rather seen 100Mbit as the threshold. It stands to reason that this will pass too with the current committee makeup.

If the GOP wins 2016, however, the future may not be so bright once they install their pro-business people and fix all of this "Socialist" claptrap.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Alupis on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @04:50PM (#9000176)
> If the GOP wins 2016, however, the future may not be so bright

Can we please stop trying to make this a "GOP is evil and hates America" and "DEM is right and loves America" thing?

The GOP standpoint is to put policy in place that naturally overtime encourages small business to bring competition to the bigger guys. The problem with this plan is it takes time and people want an immediate result.

That's not "hating america" and it's not "doomsday" if GOP wins in 2016.

Nor is the President a king -- ie. the President has Zero control over what the FCC does. So it really doesn't matter who wins in 2016 since you already have a strongly led GOP congress... who does have power over the FCC.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:27PM (#9001012)
> the President has Zero control over what the FCC does.

Other than appointing the commissioners, and exerting both indirect (and, through the use of the veto, potentially direct) influence over legislation which controls the scope of the FCCs regulatory authority, and appointing members of the Federal judiciary who ultimately resolve disputes over the FCCs actions, sure, the President has zero control over what the FCC does.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by deciplex on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:10PM (#9001372)
Can you point to some specific policies that support the idea that the GOP will encourage competition from smaller players against entrenched interests? I mean, I don't think the Democrats are much better on that front, mind you, but they're the ones supporting Net Neutrality, while Republicans in Congress are trying to ban the FCC from doing this, and Net Neutrality is very much about encouraging competition from smaller players in the market.

And for that matter, maybe they don't 'hate America', but it's awfully hard to tell sometimes, what with Sarah Palin's 'Hit List' of abortion doctors, and the keen interest they take in who can and can't get married, and pretty regularly making the poor out to be villains somehow, etc etc. I suppose if you you're only counting white, Christian conservatives, then Republicans don't hate America. Otherwise, it's a tough sell.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wwweston on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @06:12PM (#9000702)
> Can we please stop trying to make this a "GOP is evil and hates America" and "DEM is right and loves America" thing?

Whether or not the GOP is generally evil, it certainly seems to be true that their position on net neutrality has been consistently bad and if they're allowed set policy on it, they'll do it in a way that will let carriers interpose themselves as gatekeepers.

>The GOP standpoint is to put policy in place that naturally overtime encourages small business to bring competition to the bigger guys.

That's the rhetoric, anyway. It's less clear how that's likely to fall out of any of their proposed policies.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Alupis on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @06:56PM (#9000919)
The point is neither the GOP nor the DEM get to decide what net neutrality policy is... that is the FCC's job now that congress has given them that power.

This isn't a party thing... let's not try to make it one.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:22PM (#9000993)
> The point is neither the GOP nor the DEM get to decide what net neutrality policy is... that is the FCC's job

The members of the FCC are Democratic and Republican political appointees.

> This isn't a party thing...

Every FCC vote on Open Internet ("net neutrality") rules for the last several years has had a 3-2 divide on party lines (Democrats for Open Internet regs, Republicans against).

How is it not a party thing?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Alupis on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:17PM (#9001696)
> The members of the FCC are Democratic and Republican political appointees.

And so are Supreme Court Justices. Once appointed, some future President can't just remove them because he/she disagrees. The President isn't a king.

It's not a party thing. Stop trying to make it one.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:37PM (#9001761)
> And so are Supreme Court Justices.

And Supreme Court Justices decisions, throughout their careers, on issues that are politically salient at the time of their appointment very closely track the positions of the President that appointed them. While lots of people like to pretend that the judiciary is apolitical and nonpartisan, all the actual evidence is that it is anything but.

> Once appointed, some future President can't just remove them because he/she disagrees.

Right, the Supreme Court and the federal judiciary in general -- while not at all apolitical and nonpartisan -- are still more insulated from partisan politics and the mood current among elected politicians than, say, members of the FCC because they have lifetime tenure rather than 5 year terms. I'm not sure how pointing this out helps your case that the current net neutrality debate, both in the FCC and more generally, is not strongly partisan.

> It's not a party thing.

I'd surely prefer that support for net neutrality -- on the FCC, in Congress, and more generally -- wasn't a strongly partisan issue, but all the actual facts show that it is an issue that is extremely partisan. You can keep repeating "it's not a party thing" all you want, but it won't stop the fact that on the FCC, support for net neutrality regulations has consistently been split with Democrats for and Republicans against, in the Congress, support for the FCC issuing net neutrality regulations, or the Congress adopting strong net neutrality regulations itself, has consistently been strongly tilted to Democrats for and Republicans against (and, conversely, support for legislation explicitly prohibitong the FCC from regulating for neutrality has been strongly tilted to Republicans for, Democrats against.)

It is a party thing, whether you think it should be or not.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by anigbrowl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:04PM (#9000938)
The President has the power to appoint FCC commissioners, subject to confirmation by the Senate. This is a pretty significant influence, albeit an indirect one.

The GOP standpoint is to put policy in place that naturally overtime encourages small business to bring competition to the bigger guys.

That's what I hear around election time, but I'm not convinced its supported by their legislative record.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by setpatchaddress on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:17PM (#9000981)
The President has a great deal of indirect control over the FCC. All FCC commissioners are appointed by the President. But they don't turn over immediately, since they're appointed at 5-year intervals. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Communications_Commissi....

Worth reading in this context Joel Brinkley's "Defining Vision", about the history of broadcast HDTV in the US.

Also, history strongly suggests that the GOP's political rhetoric is a load of dingo's kidneys. Do you honestly believe that stuff? Do you have any corroborating examples? Because the GOP that was in power prior to 2008 pretty much exemplified the opposite strategy.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wooter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:58PM (#8999724)
Good. Why people want the government's hand's deeper in the internet than now is beyond me.

Look at mobile data (exempt from title II) versus "broadband"/cable speeds.

Wheeler actually points to the success of title II on "mobile" while ignoring the fact that it only applied to voice. Meanwhile, all the relevant growth and innovation occurred in data.

I have to say I'ld like to see the "socialist claptrap", feel-good crap, out of here.

Lastly, who thinks the people have a leg to stand on versus the NSA and privacy if the government has more control over the internet?

http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/04/the-bad-argument-behind-th...

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tormeh on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @04:32PM (#9000018)
>Wheeler actually points to the success of title II on "mobile" while ignoring the fact that it only applied to voice. Meanwhile, all the relevant growth and innovation occurred in data.

Only voice and SMS mattered until 2007(iPhone launch). Title II seemed to work pretty well until then.

>Look at mobile data (exempt from title II) versus "broadband"/cable speeds.

The difference in infrastructure costs makes those two incomparable.

Look, you just suffer under a reality distortion field.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wooter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @08:47PM (#9001293)
> Only voice and SMS mattered until 2007(iPhone launch).

So the areas in which regulated are the ones which stagnated and became dramatically less relevant?

It seems to me like you're suffering the distortion field.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tormeh on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @08:54PM (#9001315)
Are you trolling? Data is to voice as electricity is to fire; one is inherently more versatile and can handle all applications the other can. You're basically asking the equivalent of "why has all the innovation happened in electricity and not in fire? Must be the gubmint's fault"

What did you expect? That a robot would read out websites to us?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Amezarak on Friday February 06, 2015 @10:44AM (#9009463)
> Wheeler actually points to the success of title II on "mobile" while ignoring the fact that it only applied to voice. Meanwhile, all the relevant growth and innovation occurred in data.

Innovation like single-gig data caps? Or do you mean innovation like "unlimited data, except no streaming and no hotspots"?

Compared to the voice situation on mobile, or to landline Internet, mobile Internet is garbage. I don't understand what you mean. Heck, IME, 50mbps landline Internet is easier to get than 4G Internet is outside of cities. And the price isn't much better either. I pay $50/mo for 50mbps down for cable Internet, I pay $40/mo for my 2GB capped Verizon Internet which is 4G (sometimes).

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by whyaduck on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @05:09PM (#9000321)
Wireless carriers compete directly with one another on price and performance regardless of geo. There's no local monopoly. Huge difference.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by randomfool on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:57PM (#8998356)
Will this ban blocking of tethering?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by spb on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @05:04PM (#9000287)
Blocking of tethering was already banned, it just isn't enforced that carriers must provide tethering.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by rsingel on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @06:53PM (#9000902)
That's not true. The only carrier banned from blocking tethering is Verizon -- and that applies only to phones using the C Block spectrum. That's because when the FCC sold that spectrum it came with strong net neutrality rules attached (e.g. open devices, use any app, etc.)
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dzdt on Thursday February 05, 2015 @05:27AM (#9002542)
Despite the supposed ban, Verizon DOES block tethering. Source: I am a Verizon customer.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by radioact1ve on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:45AM (#8997833)
Same here. It almost seems to good to be true. I don't want to sound gloomy doomy when this is excellent news, but I can't help but think what are we missing. I keep waiting for the "but...".
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by revscat on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:09PM (#8998014)
Ok, here it comes: but AT&T and Verizon are going to bring lawsuits immediately in response to this action, and due to years of stonewalling judicial appointments by Republicans, this suit is very likely to land in a court that is corporation-friendly, even if it does not wind up in the (also corporate friendly) Supreme Court.

There is also the separate-but-related political reality that the Internet, as a vehicle of basically free information, is opposed by those who depend upon their influence over the flow of news and information in order to maintain political and economic power. This policy shift will make it more difficult for them to keep their influence, and will therefore be fought against by very powerful people who face a long-term threat from its continuation.

Satisfied? :)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:18PM (#8998078)
> Ok, here it comes: but AT&T and Verizon are going to bring lawsuits immediately in response to this action, and due to years of stonewalling judicial appointments by Republicans, this suit is very likely to land in a court that is corporation-friendly, even if it does not wind up in the (also corporate friendly) Supreme Court.

A lot of the big proponents of net neutrality -- including specifically proponents of the FCC using Title II -- are also big corporations, and will inevitably file briefs supporting the FCC action (which they lobbied for.)

"Corporation-friendly" matters less when there are big corporations on both sides.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pekk on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:58PM (#8998370)
What defines the defeat of net neutrality (like deregulation in general) as a corporate interest is that the predominant interest against net neutrality comes from big corporations, while the predominant interest for net neutrality is the general interest of individual consumers and other small fry. It makes no difference if a few competitors to Comcast come out for net neutrality, or if you can dig really hard to find that WeirdCorp of Boulder, Co argues for regulation that will reduce its own business opportunities. That's a minor footnote. The defeat of net neutrality is still a corporate interest.

"Business-friendly" is politically coded language for favoring capital holders over employees, consumers, and unrelated but affected individuals.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:41PM (#8998723)
> What defines the defeat of net neutrality (like deregulation in general) as a corporate interest is that the predominant interest against net neutrality comes from big corporations, while the predominant interest for net neutrality is the general interest of individual consumers and other small fry.

Actually, I think the predominant interests -- at least, in terms of concentrated money devoted to lobbying and overall political pull -- for net neutrality comes from big online service and content providers that want to continue to be able to operate profitably rather than having the oligopoly of broadband ISPs engaging in rent-seeking behavior that extracts the profits from those service and content providers and uses the extracted profits to develop services that compete with them, and then outright blocks the other content/service providers to protect the ISPs own competing services.

> The defeat of net neutrality is still a corporate interest.

The interests of Google, Facebook, Netflix, et al., are as much corporate interests as those of Verizon, AT&T, etc.

> "Business-friendly" is politically coded language for favoring capital holders over employees, consumers, and unrelated but affected individuals.

Sure, but net neutrality isn't an issue that puts capital holders, in general, on one side and employees, consumers, on the other.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Raphael on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:08PM (#8999367)
It depends on the relative predictions of the profitability of neutrality vs. of non-neutrality.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by 0x5f3759df-i on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:50PM (#8998307)
This argument doesn't make any sense. The court ruling that overturned the old rules specifically did so because ISPs were not classified as a common carrier and they deemed net neutrality rules can only be applied to a common carrier.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by radioact1ve on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:31PM (#8999088)
Indeed! I was leaning towards this thinking myself. But the optimist in me keeps refuting it.

>> There is also the separate-but-related political reality that the Internet, as a vehicle of basically free information, is opposed by those who depend upon their influence over the flow of news and information in order to maintain political and economic power. This policy shift will make it more difficult for them to keep their influence, and will therefore be fought against by very powerful people who face a long-term threat from its continuation.

Sorry couldn't resist this quote. Any one else see the similarities with MGS2?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by gtaylor on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:50AM (#8997866)
I think the most likely possibility is that the telcos attack this to the point where it gets de-fanged or turned away entirely. Part of congress is already mobilizing against this movement.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by phkahler on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:05PM (#8998425)
>> Part of congress is already mobilizing against this movement.

An unusually large segment of the public is paying attention to this. To kill it will require actively voting in favor of a bill. Seems like a big career risk for a politician.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by zipwitch on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:16PM (#8998972)
America's post-facto bribery and sinecure system will ensure that politicians who lose their office for efforts on behalf of their corporate overlords will be well cared for.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:20PM (#8998091)
Opponents of net neutrality can probably get a majority in the House, but probably not a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, and in any case not veto-proof in either House, which, given that the President has made this publicly a priority, limits the prospect for any legislative rollback.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by mark-r on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:47PM (#8998284)
New elections for a President and 1/3 of the Senate are less than 2 years away.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by guelo on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:34PM (#8998672)
The "but" is that the next FCC appointment by the next president (and approved by the next congress) can overturn these rules. Also, congress is broken and incapable of legislating.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wyck on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @07:42PM (#9001072)
Its like his twitter feed is bizzaro world: https://twitter.com/TomWheelerFCC

Someone who actually makes sense.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Shivetya on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:36PM (#8998686)
I am just glad they hit mobile up too, seems that it became the bastion of overcharging people after voice prices went south.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:12PM (#8998035)
> These enforceable, bright-line rules will ban paid prioritization, and the blocking and throttling of lawful content and services.

My concern is, how are they going to define lawful content and services, and more importantly, how are they going to determine it in practice? It can easily translate into some heavy handed surveillance systems which analyze the lawfulness of the whole network.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by smutticus on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:34PM (#8998198)
That's not a decision the FCC gets to make. Congress and the courts ultimately decide what is considered lawful content. These rules need to withstand changes that Congress might enact in the future. If Congress decides to force ISPs to block a certain kind of traffic, the FCC cannot disallow ISPs from blocking it with their rules.

They basically just include the word 'lawful' to allow ISPs to block unlawful traffic. Think specifically of DDOS attacks, you wouldn't want to disallow an ISP from blackholing DDOS packets.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:45PM (#8999186)
> That's not a decision the FCC gets to make. Congress and the courts ultimately decide what is considered lawful content.

Actually, once the FCC adopts a no-blocking-lawful-content rule, any alleged violation of that rule is potentially a subject of FCC action, which means that the FCC will, in the first instance, determine all relevant questions, including whether particular content is lawful. They will, of course, look at and apply court precedent and statute law to determine that, but the FCC absolutely will be called on to make that decision.

Those decisions, of course, may be appealed to the court in the same way as any other enforcement action by a regulatory body.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by jrochkind1 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:59PM (#8998375)
Right, but what we're worrying about is an ISP blocking, say, all torrent traffic. Hey, it's obviously 'unlawful' right? We will see. Overall, I am very optimistic about this announcement.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by potatolicious on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:49PM (#8998778)
They might - some already do (block or throttle torrent traffic, that is).

The difference is that right now if your ISP blocks torrent traffic you have literally no recourse besides going to a competitor (if one exists, which odds are one does not). You are after all not legally entitled to torrent traffic.

The change here is that if an ISP unilaterally starts blocking torrent traffic, you (or more likely, the EFF or similar org) can sue to have torrent traffic declared lawful, after which the ISP is legally bound to open the traffic.

The trick here isn't that ISP shitty behavior will be impossible under the new rules, but rather that there will be more power to the citizenry to combat many categories such shitty behavior.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by trjordan on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:14PM (#8998488)
Depends on how it's worded. If blocking lawful traffic is banned, then blocking a whole protocol that you don't know the contents of is unlawful. There might have to be some clarification around intent, but there are certainly many laws for which "I didn't think I was breaking the law" is an invalid defense.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by ddingus on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:16PM (#8998502)
Torrent traffic is lawful on a basic level. There are works being distributed via torrent that are intended to be there.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by jrochkind1 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:56PM (#8998833)
I know that, and you know that. I'm not so sure about Comcast or Commissioner Wheeler.

But potatolicious's comment about is good.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:41PM (#8999150)
> I know that, and you know that. I'm not so sure about Comcat or Commissioner Wheeler.

Since FCC action against Comcast for blocking Bittorrent -- including the idea that Bittorrent, whatever unlawful content might be distributed by that means, was itself not unlawful and that Bittorrent traffic included lawful content -- was one of the starting points of net neutrality regulation at the FCC, I'm pretty sure that Wheeler, the FCC in general, and Comcast are all aware of that.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Karunamon on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:35PM (#8998679)
I don't think that there is such a thing as an unlawful protocol.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:48PM (#8999218)
> Right, but what we're worrying about is an ISP blocking, say, all torrent traffic.

You do know that that's one of the earliest things the FCC addressed in the "net neutrality" / "open internet" space, even before the first attempt to adopt generally-applicable rules rather than case-by-case enforcement of net neutrality principles?

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-183A1.p...

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pyre on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:54PM (#8998336)
The devil in the details is whether or not this will be proactive. E.g. what happens if Comcast decides to block a service claiming that it is unlawful? Does said service need to wind its way through the courts to gain access to Comcast customers? Or does Comcast need to wait until the service is deemed unlawful by the courts before actually blocking?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by intopieces on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:17PM (#8998072)
This is an absolutely valid question, but it also has a flip-side: what obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content that you and I, as open-Internet believers, agree is unlawful? Shall we allow illegal content in order to err on the side of caution?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:20PM (#8998089)
I think reality is already on the heavy surveillance side as known (like this example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A ).

So some push should be done in the opposite direction.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pekk on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:31PM (#8998174)
The question was about unlawful content. The NSA isn't particularly interested in unlawful content, its surveillance has a goal of intelligence gathering rather than detection of unlawful content.

I understand the NSA is associated with all kinds of serious issues, but it doesn't help us figure anything else out when the subject changes to NSA even when it doesn't really apply.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:34PM (#8998196)
The point is not about content and NSA, but about surveillance. I.e. it's already here, and tools for it are here as well. I wouldn't see it as a far stretch if all the same tools would be used for all kind of unlawful content hunting. Why should they reinvent the wheel?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pekk on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:09PM (#8998455)
No, the question was, verbatim,

"What obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content that you and I, as open-Internet believers, agree is unlawful? Shall we allow illegal content in order to err on the side of caution?"

That question wasn't about surveillance. You keep changing the subject to surveillance, because you're unwilling to address the issue of whether we should allow illegal content.

What obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content? Not surveillance. Not NSA. Law enforcement. obligation.To regulate content.

Show we allow illegal content in order to err on the side of caution? Not should we allow surveillance. Should we allow illegal content. Content. Not surveillance. Stop changing the subject.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:12PM (#8998475)
It was about surveillance. If you don't understand that, think again. To make it easier:

> What obligation does law enforcement have to regulate content that you and I, as open-Internet believers, agree is unlawful?

Translation: what obligation does law enforcement has to police Internet with surveillance in order to catch content that we agree is unlawful? Same can be asked about ISPs.

> Shall we allow illegal content in order to err on the side of caution?"

Translation: should we oppose massive surveillance to prevent power abuse even if it will prevent catching unlawful content?

To that I answered, that current surveillance is already abusive, so the question doesn't really start.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pekk on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:03PM (#8998404)
The question was whether we should allow unlawful content for the sake of erring on the side of caution. You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue. You want to talk about surveillance, and you say it's the same thing. It's not the same thing. You aren't discussing the question which was put to you.

For example, child porn is an important form of unlawful content that many people do not want to allow. We might decide that the civil liberty issues are so important that we are just going to have to put up with more child porn than we'd have under a more restrictive regime. Or we might not. Either answer would pertain to the question. But end surveillance now, NSA, it's all the same rah-rah doesn't pertain to the question.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:06PM (#8998432)
> You seem completely unwilling to discuss or take any stance on this issue.

No, the question was, should we accept surveillance as acceptable way to prevent unlawful content. And my answer was that this question is invalid - surveillance is already here, whether you want to accept it or not. If that didn't imply surveillance, what other caution are you talking about then?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by superuser2 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:25PM (#8998135)
Surveillance != censorship, particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret. You can argue that it prompts people to self-censor, or that it actually isn't supposed to be secret, but you can't argue that Room 641A is evidence of censorship.

Better examples would be the DMCA, the FBI's seizure of child porn-related domains, the seizure of Silk Road, etc. Those things are actually censorship. Having CC processors cut off Wikileaks was also slightly indirect censorship but still pretty much censorship.

We already do these things, and under the 1st amendment, there are very few things that don't fit under "lawful content" so I doubt this would change much.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by shmerl on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:27PM (#8998151)
> Surveillance != censorship

They are close kin. Censorship uses surveillance to find what to censor. That's why it's not accidental that DRM cartels are so into police state mentality. These issues essentially converge.

> particularly when the surveillance is supposed to be a secret.

What difference does it make if it's a secret or not if it's there? Both are a problem when they are massive. Secret surveillance is even worse, since it makes people think that there is no problem with it. Compare it to obtrusive and non obtrusive DRM. People are easily annoyed by the former, but often are often OK with the later because they don't feel discomfort. So the second is actually much worse.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by hackuser on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @01:39PM (#8998711)
> Surveillance != censorship

I disagree. People under surveillance self-censor. A recent study showed journalists censoring themselves in response to surveillance (i.e., their communications). Another showed that people's searches on search engines (or maybe just Google) changed after revelations of government surveillance.

It's not an accident. It's a well-known phenomenon and a method of intimidation.

(Sorry I don't have time to look up the details of those studies.)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @03:05PM (#8999345)
>Surveillance != censorship

Only if we ignore the chilling effect that surveillance has on the First Amendment.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by beaubouchard on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:21PM (#8998096)
yes
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by thedudemabry on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:04PM (#8997977)
On first read, this appears to be the best and most pragmatic of all possible proposals. I'm nervous about its reception and subsequent tearing-down, but this is an FCC I can get behind.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by tw04 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @09:00PM (#9001338)
Without unbundling last mile, it still accomplishes almost nothing. It's ironic, the situation he describes his startup facing is EXACTLY what any startup trying to do the same would face today. As long as there is a monopoly on last mile, the ISPs will find a way to kill innovation and competition.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by MAGZine on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:46AM (#8997842)

    These enforceable, bright-line rules will ban paid prioritization, and the blocking and throttling of lawful content and services
of 'lawful content and services'. I don't mean to ruin a good thing, but is it implied here that ISPs may become the gatekeepers? I don't want what happened to YouTube (automatic content blocking because it's "unlawful") to take place with the general internet. One of the most important aspects of the internet, in my own opinion, is an unfiltered, uncensored stream of data.

I'd be very cautious about what shaping we permit to our network traffic. Laws are fickle, knowledge is power.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Someone1234 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @11:52AM (#8997885)
I think you're reading a LOT more into that than was actually said.

All he is saying is, if an ISP gets a court order, that they can then block access to content like they do now, and the FCC won't go after them as a result.

It isn't a new power or an expansion, just continuing the current situation that exists.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:27PM (#8998149)
Without the rules, ISPs can block any content, lawful or unlawful, without consequence.

With the rules, ISPs cannot block lawful content without consequence, but the rules don't prohibit blocking unlawful content. OTOH, if there are penalties for block lawful content, simple prudence will also lead ISPs to restraint in efforts to block unlawful content absent other rules mandating such blocking, lest they inadvertently block lawful content and are penalized for so doing.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by Retric on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:32PM (#8998186)
This is actually a very important and reasonable exception. A DDoS attack is unlawful traffic and we really do want ISP's to be able to block this at the switch level. Without this exception the courts would likely quickly strike down this decision.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by pjc50 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:27PM (#8998148)
Obliging carriers to carry content that they know to be unlawful is also unworkable. Among other things, it makes dealing with DDoS impossible.

In the UK we have the IWF blocklist for CP, plus the Pirate Bay block, and gradually expanding inadequately controlled currently optional "adult content" filters. The slippery slope is real, but has to be fought at a halfway point.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by noobermin on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:08PM (#8998005)
I think the definition of what is "lawful" is a very important issue we should be concerned with, but it is a separate one from Net Neutrality.

I feel like this is still a leap forward on net, and we should be happy for it.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by wtallis on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:00PM (#8997956)
Title 2 has a provision that says providers of "an interactive computer service" can't be held liable for their attempts to block access to obscenities or other objectionable content.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by endergen on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:20PM (#8998092)
Why only mobile broadband? Why not hardline too? Does anyone know?
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by dragonwriter on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:24PM (#8998128)
> Why only mobile broadband?

Its not only mobile broadband. It prohibits blocking, throttling, and paid prioritization of lawful content and services for all broadband -- which previous FCC orders and proposals on net neutrality have done for fixed broadband. The part that is distinct about mobile broadband is that this proposal is the first that would apply those rules to mobile as well as fixed broadband.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by knd775 on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @12:28PM (#8998156)
It applies to both.
Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by drcode on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:17PM (#8998980)
> ... rights of innovators to introduce new products without asking anyone’s permission.

Great, we finally get to exercise our freedoms!

> ... enforceable bright-line rules will ban ...

Oh, I see, now the "innovators" just have more regulation they have to deal with. Now they have to ask for ANOTHER entity's permission?

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by chrisrhoden on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:22PM (#8999022)
> ... ban paid prioritization, and the blocking and throttling of lawful content and services.

Doesn't sound like they'll need to ask permission since they'll know they won't get it. Are you in favor of these things?

I think reasonable people can disagree, but your positioning of these two statements as being contradictory relies on a complete lack of context to be convincing.

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by drcode on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:28PM (#8999066)
I was hoping the main thing "innovators" would be innovating away in the near future are the big ISPs. Instead, these laws are going to enshrine AT&T, Comcast, Verizon permanently, and any upstarts that might improve the situation are not going to have the manpower to handle all these new regulatory hurdles.

I'm certainly not a big fan of the status quo, but all that's being proposed here is to make a slightly-less evil version of the status quo the ONLY game in town.

(BTW, If I'm quoting a parent comment directly then how can you say there is no context? The parent comment IS the context.)

Re:FCC Chairman: This Is How We Will Ensure Net Neutrality by chrisrhoden on Wednesday February 04, 2015 @02:35PM (#8999110)
I may be being naïve, but it seems to me that the existing hurdle of laying copper or fiber to the curb is significantly higher than the one being described here, which may account for the fact that we already have the doomsday scenario you are describing in nearly every part of the country.

If you were hoping for last mile unbundling, your comment strongly suggested that you were on the absolute opposite side of the debate regarding regulation.