On the other hand, pot can be grown in a computer case or a closet. It's been bred for almost 100 years (maybe more) to be grown out of sight and out of mind. Given a very small amount of research and learning, almost anyone on the face of this planet can grow a marijuana plant. It's called "weed" for a reason.

edit: In other words, it's not exactly the same thing as what big tobacco was doing, which is marketing products on a mass scale, all the while knowing the kind of health damage that such products caused. That is what people had problems with.

The beer industry is a good example. It's nowhere near as powerful or nefarious as Big Tobacco, and in fact the phrase "Big Beer" doesn't doesn't even exist. Beer companies tend to be fairly benign, while the tobacco industry is famous for stunts like marketing cigarettes to kids and trying to suppress anything that suggests their products are harmful or addictive.

So if the marijuana industry turns out like the beer industry, that will be a pretty good outcome, really.

Any public health measures are rigorously campaigned against.

The all-party parliamentary beer group receives funding from the alcohol trade. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmallparty/regis...

(What's the largest uk appg?)

[0]: http://www.ab-inbev.com/go/brands/brand_portfolio/local_bran...

I guess my point is, practically speaking, I see 99% of people still buying it even if it's totally legalized and not taboo.

Outdoor requires less moving parts. Still a lot of variables, especially considering you can drive to the store and have your pick ;)

You can grow your own tomatoes, too, but most people don't, and even those that do usually recover from the gardening bug after two or three seasons.

Also, I expect commercial growers will start using GMO and hybrids. You may in fact be unable to grow your favorite variety of pot because you can't get ahold of viable seeds for the strain you want.

As an example, the website for Harborside Health Center currently lists three Harlequin varieties with CBD/THC of 5.2%/6.7%, 5.8%/5.6%, and 8.4%/6.9%. These THC levels are well below the other strains that run 15-25% THC.

I don't know how well-tested these strains are (aside from, "puff... yeah, man, that's awesome"), but there has always been a desire in the medical marijuana market for selection based on this data which I'm sure carries over, so I suspect that now that it is legal in a couple of places, we'll begin to see Consumer Reports style testing. Hell, maybe even the Consumers Union, themselves, will get on the case.

Basically, marijuana was legal, but you were required to purchase a tax stamp (that was never issued) in order to prove that you had paid taxes on it.

There were many reasons for this, but one factor was that, at the time, the prevailing thought was that Congress did not have the authority to ban the possession of a substance outright within the states. (Even the 18th Amendment was actually carefully worded in a way such that it didn't technically prohibit all possession and sale of alcohol, the way people oftentimes think).

This (tax law) is also the same technique that the Obama administration has used to crack down on legal medical marijuana dispensaries, while still paying lip service to his promise not to[1].

(In the latter case, the tax laws are written in such a way that medical marijuana dispensaries are unable to deduct for normal business expenses that other businesses would be).

Al Capone was also convicted of tax evasion[2], as was Reuben Sturman[3]. Tax law can be used as a "politically correct" excuse to criminalize behavior that otherwise would be politically impossible to criminalize.

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/04/harborside-health-c...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuben_Sturman

Today, of course, the Commerce Clause is interpreted insanely broadly to cover everything from civil rights to environmental protection. Worthy causes, to be sure, but not within the intended purview of, [The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;

While the framers probably didn't fully understand the ramifications, I think the broad language of the Commerce Clause lends itself to a fair reading that Congress can act on matters in which individual states acting alone would face collective action or race to the bottom problems. So something like environmental regulations fits quite naturally into this framework. Pollution doesn't respect state bounderies and states face a race to the bottom problem in attempting to regulate it. Therefore Congress is empowered to act.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean anyone is encouraging it. Lots of things are legal that could possibly be dangerous. Guess in your opinion someone had better get that legislation ready to protect the ignorant masses, right?

In Colorado, the first $40M in taxes each year are required to be allocated towards school funding, per the state constitution.

The not-so-subtle goal is to make it politically painful to repeal this amendment, as any attempt to criminalize marijuana again can be spun as an attempt to cut funding for education.

> That's going to be such a kick-in-the-backside for everyone who just wanted to decriminalize it & stop putting people away for years.

But it's a big win for people who wanted true legalization and wanted to address the larger problems associated with the illegal supply of marijuana, such as drug cartels.

The tax revenue thing is also kind of misleading. First, that number is apparently fixed (based on your wording, I'm not familiar personally), but the there is, presumably, no upper-bound on the actual revenues, so as revenues increase, a smaller percentage goes to education.

Second, vice taxes tend to be regressive, the poor pay a higher percentage of their incomes. Some of the "education lotteries" (state lotteries that benefit education) are basically mechanisms for transferring wealth from the poor to the rich(er). Poor people buy the lottery tickets and the tax revenues go to fund college scholarships for middle and upper-middle income kids. That's not socially healthy.

Given the two points above, there's a real danger that marijuana taxation will be used to transfer the overall tax burden from higher income people to lower income people.

If that means fewer bear traps and less rat poison in our national parks, it's a win as far as I'm concerned.

>Second, vice taxes tend to be regressive, the poor pay a higher percentage of their incomes. Some of the "education lotteries" (state lotteries that benefit education) are basically mechanisms for transferring wealth from the poor to the rich(er). Poor people buy the lottery tickets and the tax revenues go to fund college scholarships for middle and upper-middle income kids. That's not socially healthy.

There's nothing wrong with taxing stupid.

For example, if you gain >$price of a Powerball ticket worth's of entertainment from musing about how you'd spend the prize, it's a rational purchase.

On the other hand, buying two tickets isn't rational. You get no extra dreaming, and your expectation of winning hasn't moved essentially at all.

  > There's nothing wrong with taxing stupid.

That or they just 'waste' $2 on a long-long-long shot knowing that they won't win but don't care because, really, it's only $2 and how much does the average American pay for their coffee?

Now people who dedicate significant portions of their resources to scratch and lotto tickets have a different problem than either wasting $2 or innumeracy. It's called poor impulse control.

I strongly believe people who put down the lottery just can't let go of their super-rational minds and just enjoy an irrational thrill every once in a while. Sure, the people who spend $100 a month on Lotto when they only make $400/mo... that's a bad decision. But just $2 once every couple of months when the jackpot is some insane number? Why not? It's just $2 bucks! Yes the odds of you winning are smaller than Plank Length[1], but just let yourself go every once in awhile and enjoy a thrill and imagine "What If...". The Lottery is not a scam; assuming you understand the chances of winning is as close to zero as can be without actually being zero. People actually do win & get the money. Now, if someone can prove to me that all the winners are fake and nobody ever gets any of this money... then that's another story.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length

EDIT: Downvoted. Not surprised; I just tried to make an argument about letting go of rationality on HN. That's probably the most offensive thing I can say here. :)

I just think that it is a battle to fight another day. It is hard to argue that the poor are worse off buying marijuana legally rather than illegally, especially when the prices start to fall below what you would pay on the streets which it will as soon as the supply is able to meet the demand. Supply is pretty low because the only companies who have licenses are medical marijuana companies that already had a license, more companies will become licensed soon.

Added to the fact that in Colorado I think anyone is currently allowed to grow a small number of plants for themselves without being licensed and they can end up not paying any tax.

It's also a high risk business. You might invest millions on growing a crop only for the Federal administration to change policies in a few years and come in and blowtorch your crop.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/22/feds-destroy-1-billion-in-...

http://calcoastnews.com/2011/07/feds-raid-sanger-pot-farm-de...

Either way, you won't get it back and your investment is gone.

Just like how legalised gambling just made it legal for the mobs to run casinos?

Except that's not what happened. Investors came in, bringing real managers, real security, and real regulation. They turned the seedy, Las Vegas strip into Disneyland. And those old mob run casinos, you'll find their demolition videos on youtube.

Agreed, but legal cartels are (marginally) better in that they are forced to operate under the "light of day". This doesn't automatically solve all the problems in se, but it's an important step.

> First, that number is apparently fixed (based on your wording, I'm not familiar personally), but the there is, presumably, no upper-bound on the actual revenues, so as revenues increase, a smaller percentage goes to education.

Yes, I'm just pointing out that the motivation for the tax was not the same as the motivation behind your typical "vice taxes". It was proposed by the people who wrote Amendment 64 (proponents of legalization).

Naturally there's a tradeoff to be made, as you point out, but IMHO, it was a clever attempt to construct the amendment "defensively", to mitigate the risk of people trying to repeal it.

The size of the tax, and what to do with any excess revenues, are where one has to make a value judgement, and it really comes down to whether one thinks income should be redistributed from rich to poor, poor to rich, or neither. That's a separate discussion, though - I think almost anybody would agree that it's better to be debating the exact structure of the tax, than to be stuck debating whether or not we should force the drug trade to happen in a completely unregulated, untaxed, underground market.

Plus, they have much less need to kill people and that.

Won't this end up like lottery funding "education" in most states? [1] A guaranteed $40M in funding to schools means the legislature will simply reduce funding by $40M and move the balance around the general fund to other initiatives.

I'm not arguing additional tax money is bad, but we shouldn't pretend this will product a windfall of available money for the Colorado school systems.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/mega-m...

Nobody is - the point is that any attempt to repeal the law down the line can be viewed as a cut to the education budget.

The point of the clause is not to generate revenue for the school system; it's to create political friction against reversing the law.

But the profit margins in the illegal drug market is largely because of the risk involved. Facing legal competition, which does not have to include that risk in its price, is effectively creating a market where legitimized producers have an extreme advantage.

Edited to add:

Also, while I have no idea as to the veracity, Wikipedia says that over half the cartels' revenue comes from marijuana, and links http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1269781... in support.

Given the high fixed costs (salaries, bribes, infrastructure) of maintaining a criminal network, I expect that cutting revenues almost in half would be a tremendous blow to their profits.

Well, it wasn't me who said it in the first place, but that aside...

"legalizing all drugs is much, much different issue."

I'm not sure I agree - this is arguably the first step on that path (if we wish to continue down that path). I agree that there will be different outcomes.

That said...

"I don't think the profits would be reduced at all, simply replaced by other products."

I'm not sure you understand how business works. For that to happen, someone needs to start purchasing substantially more cocaine and methamphetamine. If the cartels are capable of making that happen, why aren't they making it happen now?

I really don't see that any of these considerations are any different due to it being a black market - if you think they are, explain why.

1) It eliminates legal risk, so drug production becomes instantly a much more lucrative activity, enticing more people to do it.

2) Profits are reduced as the market becomes more competitive.

3) The cartels are unable to pursue their "normal" extralegal means of suppressing competition, because the parties they might seek to suppress now have legal access to state protection.

4) In a competitive, legal market, the successful firms will be the ones which offer the best product - the firms with the best drugs, the highest standards of quality and ethics, the nicest stores, and the best customer service. Why buy from dodgy drug-dealers when you can walk into a beautiful store and get great customer service?

In short term yes, cartels may attempt to protect their monopoly, but in the long term, legalisation dooms them as cultural dinosaurs unable to compete in the new legal, open market.

Edit: This analysis depends upon low taxation. High taxation will still incentivise extralegal selling, but it probably makes the black market a bit safer regardless.

"4) In a competitive, legal market, the successful firms will be the ones which offer the best product - the firms with the best drugs, the highest standards of quality and ethics, the nicest stores, and the best customer service. Why buy from dodgy drug-dealers when you can walk into a beautiful store and get great customer service?"

Really? So Walmart and Amazon have the highest standard of quality and customer service..really??????

"Why buy from dodgy drug-dealers when you can walk into a beautiful store and get great customer service"

Because money talks. The government will tax and regulate drugs. Many users will not want to pay a higher price for a lower quality product (quality might be THC levels, etc).

Why go to dodgy virus-laden websites to download software and music when you can go into a beautiful store with great customer service?

I'm all for the legalization of MJ, but I feel like common sense goes out the window in any of these discussions.

If the community is all about stopping the violence, why not boycott all cartel grown drugs?

Because Bayer and Amazon can drive the bastards out of business much faster, simply by being better organized.

As long as all the growing takes place within the legalisation territory (i.e. nothing is sourced from illicit operations in foreign nations) then I see no reason why violent organisations would dominate legal trade of psychoactive substances.

The experts with whom I have discussed this (a few pulmonologists) usually ask about marijuana smoke in the same breath as tobacco smoke, and consider it a probable carcinogen.

Fun somewhat-related fact that I learned last week: a one hour hookah session typically equates to a 5 to 10-pack cigarette equivalent.

Related is the danger of smoke from ordinary wood fire, see: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-fireplace-delusion

I don't think you can say that at all. Of course burning plant matter produces carcinogens, but studies of marijuana smokers haven't found any conclusive evidence of greatly increased cancer risk. There have been some studies that show that smoking tobacco and marijuana together increases cancer risk beyond that of tobacco alone.

Smokeless tobacco causes mouth and throat cancers, so something is going on with tobacco itself (or something else common to cigarettes and smokeless tobacco).

There is some evidence that radioactive carcinogens found in tobacco play a part in cancer risk.

There is epidemiological evidence that marijuana smoking is associated with lung cancer. "Greatly" is subjective so I can't really comment on that.

"findings from a limited number of well-designed epidemiological studies do not suggest an increased risk for the development of either lung or upper airway cancer from light or moderate use, although evidence is mixed concerning possible carcinogenic risks of heavy, long-term use,"

"In summary, the accumulated weight of evidence implies far lower risks for pulmonary complications of even regular heavy use of marijuana compared to the grave pulmonary consequences of tobacco."

By greatly, I meant as bad as tobacco which dramatically increases the risk of lung cancer.

The previous poster was commenting on the health risks of tobacco being caused entirely by burning plant matter. However, the evidence suggests this isn't true.

> "In summary, the accumulated weight of evidence implies far lower risks for pulmonary complications of even regular heavy use of marijuana compared to the grave pulmonary consequences of tobacco."

Yeah, I think mostly this comes down to the above discussion of "greatly" -- marijuana seems to have some correlation with lung disease and cancer, but it seems to be less than tobacco.

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/tobac...

would be the volume of smoke inhaled (hookah session = 150 cigarettes). Equivalent is probably the wrong word to describe that.

OT: "Hookah is also called [...] hubble-bubble [...]"

Citation needed.

There are multiple uses of it in Google search results.

"Other common names for waterpipes include [...], and hubbly-bubbly."

They even cite a study entitled "Hubble-bubble (water pipe) smoking: levels of nicotine and cotinine in plasma, saliva and urine". [2]

This rabbit hole goes deep!

[1] http://www.lungusa2.org/embargo/slati/Trendalert_Waterpipes....

[2] Shafagoj YA, Mohammed FI, Hadidi.KA., Int J of Clin Pharmacol Ther 2002 Jun; 40(6): 249-55.

This known carcinogen should be treated with respect, even when taken by alternative routes, until there is data demonstrating that the cooling mechanism actually improves safety.

My main intent was to save every other person that did a double take the trouble.

Knowledge is potentially unbounded, but I wouldn't say we "lack" anything. Marijuana is probably the single most well-studied substance on the planet. Most FDA-approved drugs have gone through only a fraction of the level of study and testing that marijuana has.

> The experts with whom I have discussed this (a few pulmonologists) usually ask about marijuana smoke in the same breath as tobacco smoke, and consider it a probable carcinogen.

I've done a lot of research on this topic; unfortunately it's on another hard drive at the moment, but thankfully it's a very easy topic to research yourself.

Marijuana itself is not carcinogenic - in fact, it has cancer-fighting properties in some cases, and could be used as an aid in treating cancer directly, not just symptomatically. Consuming marijuana in edible or vapor form possesses no risk of cancer.

Interestingly, there have been a number of studies on heavy marijuana users (who smoke marijuana), and by and large, they have failed to conclude that even moderately heavy use of (smoked) marijuana can be linked to lung cancer. This phenomenon is well-known enough that it has spawned its own set of associated explanatory theories, and studies investigating those.

Obligatory XKCD disclaimer: https://xkcd.com/882/

I would like to see a citation of a study that is powered to detect population-level effects which demonstrates that claim.

As an aside, I'd also like to see solid data on vapor form tobacco. There is not a definitive study at this point to demonstrate safety or clearly delineate the risk. It would be nice the be able to give meaningful guidance to patients on the topic of marijuana and tobacco, but right now I believe the most accurate and responsible thing to say is "I don't know."

Regarding pot not causing lung cancer I can't really argue, emphasima on the other hand is a very real thing. While this is anecdotal, my mother is a nurse in a country town where there are a lot of weed only life long smokers and most of the old boys are starting to show up in hospital with emphasima.

My understanding was that there is about 10 cigarettes worth of tar in a similarly sized joint.

I have heard the old wives story about weed doesn't cause cancer many times. Never have I found any study pertaining to it. Or have I been shown any proof. The idea that there is no carcinogens created from burning plant material of any kind is laughable to me. The amount is questionable only maybe.

As from personal experience, heavy daily usage is certainly detrimental to health and breathing capacity.

There is a lot of misinformation out there take my views and others with a grain of salt.

Disclosure, ive always been a staunch legalisation supporter. Never been a fan of decriminalization.

Edit, and no I dont smoke anymore.

That may be true, but how much does your average pot smoker actually smoke in a day? My dad was a two-pack-a-day cigarette smoker, which is forty cigarettes. I have yet to run into someone who smokes four cigarettes worth of pot in a day, and while I'm sure they must exist from what I can see the average is more like an amount similar to the tobacco you'd find in a quarter of a cigarette.

4-5 a night is very common, at least where I've come from. I'd say about as common as someone who drinks 4 beers in a night after work. Not the total norm but not crazy or anything either.

Most of us just want to be able to have a joint on the front porch and not be arrested; the tax revenue is just a necessary evil in this case.