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Re:Gmail was down by sillysaurus2 on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:12PM (#7116912)
Why is there no alternative webmail of the caliber of gmail? Is it a difficult problem? If there were such an alternative, all they would need to do is wait until gmail fouls up, as they did here. Then they'd have a flood of new users.

I can imagine a few reasons why there currently isn't an alternative, like network effects stemming from your contact list, or the fact that you'd have to change your email address everywhere and forward from your gmail account. But what are the real reasons?

Re:Gmail was down by makmanalp on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:23PM (#7117152)
I don't think there are network effects, really. The contact list you can export just fine. I think it's just a good product overall.

- The search is very good, even searches within attachments.

- You can have large attachments.

- Doesn't run out of space and is free.

- Spam detection is flawless. I've rarely had anything important fall into spam. Alternatives like spambayes are not nearly as good.

- The threading is excellent. Most competing products suck at this.

- The keyboard shortcuts are comprehensive and save me tons of time. Most competing products suck at this.

- Labels and filters are super powerful and save me tons of time. Most competing products suck at this.

I don't like any of the non-webmail alternatives, simply because they are not webmail, and you can't get to them from everywhere.

Alternatives seem to be:

- http://roundcube.net/

- https://www.mailpile.is/

- http://www.horde.org/

- http://openwebmail.org/ (pretty bad)

- http://squirrelmail.org/ (also pretty terrible)

edit:

Looks like mailpile is closest to what I want, with a open source and modern python stack, super clean and simple UI, focus on the right features. But it's fairly alpha. On the other hand, they seem to have gotten some 160k of crowdfunding, so the main developers seem dedicated.

Fastmail also seems to be the best non-open alternative around, imho.

edit2:

Somewhat disappointed that mailpile seems to have reinvented the wheel multiple times by not using an existing web framework / search server.

Re:Gmail was down by rodgerd on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:46PM (#7118717)
I use roundcube to front-end mail for friends and family.

The problem is that you mention you run your own mail server and even plenty of tech-savvy folks will look at you like you're the Unibomber.

Re:Gmail was down by smacktoward on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:28PM (#7117252)
The "killer feature" of Gmail that people generally cite is its spam filtering, and that is hard to replicate, because one reason Google's spam filters are so good is because they have an enormous corpus of messages at hand to train them with. This presents would-be competitors with a chicken-and-egg problem: you need lots of users to be able to pull together a corpus like that, but you can't attract lots of users without your spam filters having that large corpus to learn from.

It's not the interface that's hard to replicate, in other words; it's the backend, the service component. This is pretty consistent with the type of "moats" Google has generally built around its properties, they're almost always more about magic on the backend than magic on the front.

Re:Gmail was down by scholia on Saturday January 25, 2014 @09:00AM (#7120774)
Gmail spam filtering is actually poor, in my experience, because it's so aggressive. Around 30-40% of the mail in my spam folder is legitimate email, and the ratio is sometimes 90%. It would be even worse if I didn't have filters to tag some mail. (Gmail gives you the message it was not sent to spam because filter.)

Outlook.com's spam filtering is at least as good as Gmail's now, probably better. The only significant difference is that it's much less aggressive. Outlook.com will let two or three spams through where Gmail will put four or five legitimate emails in the spam box.

Since most people probably don't check their Gmail spam boxes regularly, Gmail's spam blocking is actually more dangerous.

Re:Gmail was down by foldr on Sunday January 26, 2014 @02:46PM (#7126517)
That sounds like an unusual experience. I just checked through a few days of my spam folder and didn't find a single legitimate email.
Re:Gmail was down by scholia on Sunday January 26, 2014 @04:21PM (#7126982)
That sounds like an unusual experience ;-)

To be fair, I get a lot of press releases, newsletters and bulk mailings. But there's really no excuse for Gmail to keep putting emails from, say, EE Press Office in spam when I take them out every time. (My account was an early beta.)

Re:Gmail was down by foldr on Sunday January 26, 2014 @06:18PM (#7127552)
I don't think so, there are multiple posters here who mention how good the spam filtering is. I don't know anyone else who has any issues with it. 30% seems an implausibly high figure.
Re:Gmail was down by scholia on Monday January 27, 2014 @10:58AM (#7130952)
I have screen grabs that prove it, though they probably contain other sensitive information. Not sure of a good way round that....
Re:Gmail was down by nfoz on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:58PM (#7117516)
Honestly, my gmail gets a lot more spam (and I mean into my Inbox) than the self-hosted email that I actually use (I rarely touch my gmail).

Also they seem to engage in very spammer-friendly activities such as notifying spammers if and when you read their spam email (if images are turned on by default). Soooo, I can't imagine that competing against their spam filtering is as impossible as people tend to believe.

Re:Gmail was down by andrewem on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:59PM (#7119329)
Now they're caching each image once for all users, which pretty much defeats that.
Re:Gmail was down by schrodinger on Saturday January 25, 2014 @12:10AM (#7119940)
Not really, now you just have to have a unique image URL for each email you send. How could they possibly tell they are the same image before downloading them?
Re:Gmail was down by nfoz on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:38PM (#7133045)
Exactly; their behaviour is still extremely friendly to the spammers/trackers.
Re:Gmail was down by daigoba66 on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:39PM (#7117364)
Google used to have spam filtering as a (pay to use) service: http://www.google.com/postini. My e-mail (I don't use gmail) used it before it was shutdown. Now they use http://www.roaringpenguin.com/.
Re:Gmail was down by scarmig on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:14PM (#7116953)
Yes, it is a difficult problem. At least if you want to have enough of a track record of reliability that within a couple minutes of going down you've hit the top slot on Hacker News.
Re:Gmail was down by Touche on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:16PM (#7116973)
There are many alternatives of the caliber. Fastmail for example. Probably the problem is that you are expecting an alternative that is exactly like Gmail but if that's the way you judge alternatives you will never find one you accept.
Re:Gmail was down by colanderman on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:23PM (#7117142)
+1 for FastMail. Its interface is beautiful and blazingly fast (while GMail is unusably slow on my machine). It integrated trivially with my personal domain, including federated XMPP.

GMail jumped the shark when they forced the new interface on everyone, killing usability in the process. It doesn't deserve my eyeball time any more.

Re:Gmail was down by pmcg on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:31PM (#7117283)
As a long time paid Fastmail user, Fastmail will probably stay as good as it is for longer if we don't tell everyone about it! :)
Re:Gmail was down by JohnBooty on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:15PM (#7116967)

  Why is there no alternative webmail of the 
  caliber of gmail? Is it a difficult problem? 
Are you serious?
Re:Gmail was down by sillysaurus2 on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:26PM (#7117216)
I'm old enough to remember that gmail was largely the creation of one person; a person who was neither a programming god nor business guru. It's tempting to think that we could sit down and make an open source gmail clone.
Re:Gmail was down by aryastark on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:44PM (#7117417)
My brain hurts from contemplating what you wrote.

The point of gmail is that they take the configuration and headache of maintaining a mail server away from you. If you're okay with running your own qmail/sendmail, then there are vastly better open source UI options than gmail. Google didn't invent email. They just run some of the world's largest mail servers as a (mostly) free service.

Re:Gmail was down by hueving on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:50PM (#7117910)
>there are vastly better open source UI options than gmail.

Really? Because I haven't found a web front-end as good. Otherwise I am happy running my own mail server.

Re:Gmail was down by aryastark on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:15PM (#7118508)
I don't consider a web UI as anything more than a temporary workaround for when I don't have a native mail client around. They all tend to suck. Even gmail's. Try roundcube if you must.
Re:Gmail was down by maxerickson on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:33PM (#7117296)
The reasonably slick web interface is the boring part of the service.
Re:Gmail was down by JohnBooty on Monday January 27, 2014 @04:05PM (#7133233)
Mentioning the original Gmail seems a bit of a red herring.

Surely the community would expect something closer to 2014's Gmail (which is the product of tens of millions of dollars of engineer-hours, even if you skip all of the advertising-enabling gunk that an open-source clone would surely skip) before a theoretical Gmail clone got any kind of traction.

A clone that approaches "modern" Gmail is absolutely possible, of course. My original "Are you serious?" was just a bit of incredulity aimed at the person who asked "Hey, why isn't anybody on this yet? Is it hard?"

Possible? Yes. Hard? Yes.

Re:Gmail was down by gus_massa on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:42PM (#7117399)
If you don’t have Paul Buchheit in your list of programming gods, your list must be very short. Anyway, probably the fist version sucked and he used a lot of internal libraries.
Re:Gmail was down by SilasX on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:35PM (#7117319)
Who?
Re:Gmail was down by sheetjs on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:42PM (#7117395)
Wikipedia credits Paul Buchheit:

> The idea for Gmail was pitched by Rajen Sheth during an interview with Google,[55] and went on to be developed by Paul Buchheit several years before it was announced to the public. Initially the email client was available for use only by Google employees internally. Google announced Gmail to the public on April 1, 2004.

Re:Gmail was down by chmars on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:19PM (#7117065)
I agree, there is no alternative, there are only other mail services, especially if you use not only Gmail but also Calendar and Contacts.
Re:Gmail was down by Pxtl on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:29PM (#7117255)
You know Microsoft still exists, right? They've been dumping buckets of money into their web-based offerings.

Obviously, MS is no less evil than Google. But they exist.

If you don't want to use a tacky old Hotmail.com domain name, you can also register for an MS account at Live.com or Outlook.com - this gets you a web Outlook account which gives you email, contacts, SkyDrive (photos and docs/spreadsheets/powerpoint/etc) and calendar. And they don't have their own analogue to Plus and they've abandoned their old messaging systems, so the only "social layer" tedium is an optional integrated sidebar for Facebook/LinkedIn/Twitter.

It's actually pretty nice. I still use my gmail as my primary because there's not enough reason to switch and I like open-source Android, but MS has built a solid thing there.

Re:Gmail was down by ternaryoperator on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:54PM (#7118768)
Quite agreed. Microsoft has done a very nice job updating its offering. The paid versions are also very well done.
Re:Gmail was down by petercooper on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:16PM (#7116970)
Then they'd have a flood of new users.

There are a handful of alternatives each with their own pros and cons but the key problem is lock in, psychological or technological.

Even if Gmail were down for an hour every day, I'd have to think and work hard to migrate away due to (over)-relying on their service and some of the unique features it has.

Re:Gmail was down by rattray on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:17PM (#7117004)
I've heard terrific things about fastmail.fm's web client. Many people say it's faster and has most of Gmail's cherished features.

Edit: plus, no Google-snooping of course.

Re:Gmail was down by alfiejohn_ on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:48PM (#7117901)
No Google-snooping, and there never will be.
Re:Gmail was down by vex on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:19PM (#7117064)
A better question is, why isn't there an open source webmail service like gmail that can be run on a server you control? My lab uses Gmail for business, and the outage took us down too.

I just want to be able to run an email server that has conversation features, contacts, XMPP chat, etc, but isn't Microsoft Exchange

Re:Gmail was down by abvdasker on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:35PM (#7117323)
So coincidentally I was just looking into this earlier this week. I just got a server to host the blog I've been working on and figured hey, why don't I try self-hosting my email while I'm at it.

Turns out there are plenty of good open source webmail frameworks: Roundcube, Mailpile, Zimbra and RainLoop are all freely available and ridiculously easy to set up.

The issue is that they're all just front-ends for the horribly complex and difficult to configure backend of a modern email server (SMTP/POP3/IMAP). You can configure them to hook into Google/Yahoo/Other smtp servers, but then why bother — you're back where you started.

I had no understanding of how broken email was until I tried to set up a simple SMTP + IMAP server using postfix + courier.

Re:Gmail was down by tilsammans on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:26PM (#7117719)
I've been using, and contributing to, Sovereign. It's fantastic. Even if you are only looking for a mail server, you can point it to a VPS and let it do its magic. Zero trouble, self-hosted IMAP/POP3/SMTP/Webmail. https://github.com/al3x/sovereign
Re:Gmail was down by aaronem on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:45PM (#7117429)
I didn't find postfix all that hard to set up. Courier, on the other hand, is a disaster area, which is why my mail server runs dovecot instead; the latter took little effort to configure, and works quite nicely across several devices. The really hard part was finding a halfway decent CalDAV/CardDAV server that didn't require undue suffering to configure; I settled on Baïkal, which works okay, but could be considerably improved upon.
Re:Gmail was down by abvdasker on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:52PM (#7117478)
Thanks for the tip on dovecot. I'll give that a shot.
Re:Gmail was down by aaronem on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:26PM (#7117728)
Do; I spent half a day wrestling with courier and lost, and it took me less than an hour to get dovecot up and doing what I wanted.
Re:Gmail was down by kackontent on Saturday January 25, 2014 @05:59AM (#7120484)
Thanks for mentioning RainLoop,I was looking at various open source webmails and wasn't happy with them (Mailpile looks promising though), but never before run into RainLoop, looks like a winner.
Re:Gmail was down by thrush on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:21PM (#7117101)
I think an even better question may be, why isn't there a decentralized approach to email to compete with centralized alternatives like Gmail.

Imagine that you could still use your email when Gmail goes down, but you would lose a lot of features like autocomplete, search, recommended recipients, etc.

Re:Gmail was down by dredmorbius on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:39PM (#7117359)
IMAP
Re:Gmail was down by benjohnson on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:24PM (#7117184)
There's plenty - we chose Roundcube. http://roundcube.net
Re:Gmail was down by chmars on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:21PM (#7117098)
You could use Kolab:

http://kolab.org/

Re:Gmail was down by jordibunster on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:23PM (#7117146)
Have you tried outlook.com?

Disclosure: I work for Microsoft (not outlook.com team though).

Re:Gmail was down by Pxtl on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:31PM (#7117279)
I'm curious about the branding - I still connect to Live.com for my Hotmail account although the header says Outlook... is Microsoft ever going to get this mess settled? And can you actually get an outlook.com email account or is it only Hotmail.com and Live.com? edit: google reveals that yes, you can get an outlook.com account.
Re:Gmail was down by stevewilhelm on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:29PM (#7117260)
My GMail was back up in minutes. It would take a great deal of effort for me to move my years of Google Mail (professional and personal), Contacts, Calendars, and Drive-based documents to some other service.
Re:Gmail was down by jsz0 on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:44PM (#7117871)
To their credit Google makes it very easy to get your data out. I was really surprised how easy it was to transition to different services.
Re:Gmail was down by scholia on Saturday January 25, 2014 @09:11AM (#7120808)
Probably not as much effort as you think.... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7119301
Re:Gmail was down by duaneb on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:31PM (#7117284)
For me, at least, it's a combination of IMAP sucking (and GMail's tag/filter interface improving functionality of mail immensely) and their having the best spam filtering around.
Re:Gmail was down by scholia on Saturday January 25, 2014 @08:52AM (#7120754)
Outlook.com is an alternative and it is the calibre of Gmail. The differences are marginal. See my comment above https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7120745

I use Outlook.com as a backup to Gmail and I use Gmail with my own domain name. I haven't switched, but it wouldn't be a problem if I had to.

Re:Gmail was down by superuser2 on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:50PM (#7117913)
Why would an alternative service (or self hosting or whatever) be better at reliability than Google?
Re:Gmail was down by bzliu94 on Sunday January 26, 2014 @05:22AM (#7124658)
Look, if you're looking for an alternative, you might as well go as simple as possible. Otherwise, you're never going to get unhooked from the behemoths of today.
Re:Gmail was down by korzun on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:38PM (#7118663)
I use Zoho and have nothing negative to say about them. They lack Android integration, but as a mail service (with a web mail) they are totally fine.

Spam filtering works well too.

Re:Gmail was down by Xorlev on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:01PM (#7119090)