News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by aspensmonster on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:38PM (#7112293)
Jobs' comments:

>OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly?

>if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war.

Chizen's comment:

>if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of our top Mac talent…

Jobs sounds like a Grade-A Asshole, along with every other player involved in this mess. Makes me even less likely to relocate to SV than I already was. Though now I'm curious to know whether these wage-theft pacts extend beyond SV, perhaps to Austin... Many of the same players have a significant presence here. Seriously. If you've got info, hit me up.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by zaidf on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:51PM (#7112363)
This is where he crosses the asshole line over to scumbag and crook territory. I say this as someone who respects Jobs deeply for his product vision.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by kirubakaran on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:27PM (#7112561)
He has always been there.

"Jobs told him that Atari gave them only $700 (instead of the offered $5,000), and that Wozniak's share was thus $350. Wozniak did not learn about the actual bonus until ten years later, but said that if Jobs had told him about it and had said he needed the money, Wozniak would have given it to him."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by 31reasons on Thursday January 23, 2014 @09:11PM (#7112962)
Woz is someone who is straight out of fairytales. I wish I had a friend like him.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by wozniacki on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:47AM (#7114277)
Wozniak on Jobs :

         *...told Jobs the good things these machines could  
         do for humanity, not the reverse. I begged Steve
         that we donate the first Apple I to a woman who 
         took computers into elementary schools but he made
         my buy it and donate it myself.*
http://i.imgur.com/a1I9DTs.jpg

https://plus.google.com/+CarmsPerez/posts/GnVTvQNgvpf

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chris_wot on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:01AM (#7114324)
I seriously consider Steve Jobs to be a sociopath.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by JetSpiegel on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:48AM (#7114465)
How can he be so successful otherwise?

By a certain measure of successful.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chris_wot on Sunday January 26, 2014 @10:07PM (#7128511)
He wasn't successful at being a human being. That counts for a lot in my book.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by johnmaddox on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:15AM (#7114371)
After all this why does Steve Wozniak stay with him.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by wavefunction on Friday January 24, 2014 @08:43AM (#7114827)
Because he's the Woz, he's immutable and immovable like the Bhudda

Funny how Jobs was the 'Bhuddist.'

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by eric_h on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:33PM (#7116125)
buddha, buddhist
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ape4 on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:43PM (#7117863)
Jobs was a buddhist, but Woz is the buddha.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by 1stop on Saturday January 25, 2014 @08:05AM (#7120669)
a buddha... the buddha died a long time ago.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chris_wot on Sunday January 26, 2014 @06:41PM (#7127657)
Didn't he ascend to a higher plane?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by wavefunction on Saturday January 25, 2014 @05:23AM (#7120430)
and yet you still knew that to which I referred ;)

(afaik there isn't a standard transliteration but I could be wrong as I often am...)

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by BasDirks on Saturday January 25, 2014 @07:33AM (#7120614)
b|_|Ddh4 then?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by lifeisstillgood on Friday January 24, 2014 @08:09AM (#7114709)
Because any maker wants their stuff to be in front of as many people as possible - and staying with Jobs sure made that happen.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by rmc on Saturday January 25, 2014 @11:24AM (#7121165)
Because he's fundamentally a nice guy?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by johnmaddox on Tuesday January 28, 2014 @07:01AM (#7136572)
citation needed.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by Natsu on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:50AM (#7113540)
No matter what I hear about him, it seems like I always end up respecting Steve Wozniak more.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dba7dba on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:33AM (#7113652)
Unfortunately most people only know/worship Jobs. Few non-geeks know about Wozniak. Sad.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by danellis on Friday January 24, 2014 @08:43AM (#7114826)
Time for a Kickstarter for iWoz: The Movie.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by Already__Taken on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:48AM (#7114128)
It sounds like he likes it that way.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by SkyMarshal on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:08PM (#7117588)
Not when it results in lies and historical revisionism that besmirch his true legacy:

https://plus.google.com/+CarmsPerez/posts/GnVTvQNgvpf

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by RuCrazy on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:54AM (#7113707)
i know the mofo Woz!
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by blueskin_ on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:51AM (#7113969)
...and this is why, even as a major Apple hater * , I like and respect Wozniak.

* Although, to be fair to myself, Apple only turned into its current form after he left.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by johnmaddox on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:34AM (#7114094)
I really respect Steve Wozniak. But why does he not rebel and leave him. Why does any body surrender when they have a choice unlike most others. And this is the reason i wish there are more people like RMS who are both talented and have deep philosophy.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dchichkov on Saturday January 25, 2014 @12:42AM (#7119991)
Would you care to guess why?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by johnmaddox on Tuesday January 28, 2014 @06:51AM (#7136542)
I am not able to. Money? It can not be atleast in case of Woz.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by kayoone on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:54AM (#7114142)
A lot of Woz' generosity comes from him not caring about money and power but that doesn't make him any less likable of course.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by lmg643 on Thursday January 23, 2014 @09:32PM (#7113033)
This whole episode is pretty depressing. But, it's far better for people to live without illusions about the nature of their bosses, etc.

At the risk of a hundred downvotes, I wonder how many people can see the parallels in the current silicon valley push for "immigration reform."

Having watched H1B farms style companies up close and personal, I can say there is very little to recommend about this model of employment, other than the CEOs like having a lower employee expense base. It might sound more exciting to hear the pitch from a wunderkind like Mark Z, but it's still the same story.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dredmorbius on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:13AM (#7113442)
The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment.

Norm Matloff of UC Davis has literally been trying to expose this for decades, with little luck:

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b.html

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/h1b10min.html

Moreover: this is entirely consistent with behavior of employer first observed in the 18th century:

[I]n every part of Europe twenty workmen serve under a master for one that is independent, and the wages of labour are everywhere understood to be, what they usually are, when the labourer is one person, and the owner of the stock which employs him another.

What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour.

It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate.

Marx, you ask? No. Engles? No.

That's Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3300/3300-h/3300-h.htm#link2H...

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by 001sky on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:27AM (#7113478)
This is the dirtly little secret. Even if you hire at "market wages" there are all sorts of ways to exploit the relationship going forward. The power-assymetry this puts the H1B holder in is the opposite of 'negotiating leverage', and one can rest assure that this will not go un-noticed.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by nazka on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:55PM (#7118378)
I am French, my GF is in San Francisco, and I am trying to get a decent company to avoid that. And it's hard... :/
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by joshAg on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:19PM (#7119159)
check out riverbed. i'm not h1b, but i had many coworkers there who were and said it was great for h1b workers.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by nazka on Saturday January 25, 2014 @06:21AM (#7120523)
Thank you very much! I appreciate that.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by rgovind on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:30AM (#7113488)
>The H1B issue is absolutely about providing cheap, endentured labour: visa holders are tied to their sponsoring employer and must appeal to be allowed to seek other employment

This is plain wrong. You can very easily shift and people do shift. You just interview with a different company, just like a citizen would.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by Patrick_Devine on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:42AM (#7113942)
Sure, but you can only renew the H1-B once (although you can get extensions). Also, most companies make it a policy to not sponsor you for a green card unless you've put in a year or two, and then once you apply for it they've got you by the balls. So every time you switch companies, you're starting the clock over again.

This is even worse if a company brings you in through some other visa like a TN-1 or L1 (NAFTA and Intracompany transfer visa respectively), and then make you convert to an H1-B before they will sponsor you.

A word of advice: Always use your own immigration attourney and not the one being paid for by your company. If the company is paying for it, the attourney represents the company, and not you.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by hpagey on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:16PM (#7116978)
Your statement " So every time you switch companies, you're starting the clock over again." is incorrect. After your i-140 is cleared and you have received your priority date you can port your i-140 and retain your priority date. Your clock doesn't reset per se.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by jgh on Friday January 24, 2014 @08:09PM (#7119365)
Good information. "Port your I-140" though?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by hpagey on Monday January 27, 2014 @12:54PM (#7131844)
Oops, good question. You port your priority date not your i-140. The new employer still needs to apply for a new i-140 with your previous PD. This way you don't lose your place in the queue.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by jgh on Thursday February 06, 2014 @12:20PM (#7191504)
Got it, thanks for the reply!
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by minwcnt5 on Saturday January 25, 2014 @11:17AM (#7121145)
Your comment about TN makes no sense to me. TN is not an immigration-intent visa - if you apply for a green card while on a TN, you have to maintain an address in Canada and prove that you plan to return there. This is very difficult to do, and your green card will almost certainly be rejected and you might be allowed back into the US on the TN. So of course they make you switch to H1B before they'll sponsor your green card.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by Patrick_Devine on Monday January 27, 2014 @03:25PM (#7132962)
Not quite. It's certainly possible to enter the US on a TN visa to work with the intention of returning to Canada but also intending on becoming an immigrant at some point in the future. Yes, you do need to maintain ties to Canada when you enter under the TN visa, but there is no requirement that you need to be on an H1 when filing for Adjustment of Status.

Here's a link: http://www.tnvisabulletin.com/tn-visa-adjustment-of-status/

I've seen a couple of people do this, and it allowed them to skip the H1-B hassle. You just have to be honest and show that your intention initially is just to work and return to Canada, but your future intention is to become a permanent resident.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dredmorbius on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:18AM (#7113617)
H1B throws all that much more friction into an already unequal relationship, tossing power further to employers.

My preferred reform would be for H1B to be fully unrestricted. If you're going to allow labor into the country, let it compete on fully equal footing with domestic labor. For the reasons Smith articulates and you've either failed to read or are intentionally choosing to ignore, employers already have the upper hand.

A better balance of power would be to repeal anti-unionization laws such as the Orwellian (100th anniversary of his death by the way) doublespeak "right to work" (really: "right to fire, and disrupt organization attempts") and ensure that labor has the same access to collusive collective action and mobility as capital and finance.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by marme on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:51AM (#7113698)
real changes that need to be made to h1b are the fact that they need to prioritize the h1bs to foreigners who graduate from US universities. Every year thousands of foreign PhD students graduate and go back to their home country not because they want to but because they could not get an H1B visa mostly because they wont work at the cut rate a person fresh from their home country would work for. These PhDs are trained with public funds because no PhD student pays their own way through school they receive public grants from the schools or other public entities that fund their research and their study. Americans just dont want to enter graduate school in the same numbers that chinese and indians want to and there is no problem with that as long as these people are not being trained just to go back to their country. They use US public funds to be trained so it is beneficial for them to stay in the US and boost the US work force
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dvogel on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:22AM (#7114564)
They do pay for their own education. They pay for it through substandard wages for the work they perform. If their department didn't pay for their tuition then there is no way those students would work for the peanuts they currently do. The net cost/income to the school would be the same but the current arrangement has less transactional friction and makes it very hard for the student to leave once they've started.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dredmorbius on Saturday January 25, 2014 @02:22AM (#7120166)
That is another element of possible reform, yes. I've watched the changes of the past 14 years with increasing gloom.

I also saw the effects of the liberalization of immigration regulations in the 1960s which saw floods of foreign students, many Indian, Chinese, African, and others, which had profound influences on US academic institutions, the communities around them, and, to be honest, on their home countries, one of which was a brain drain.

On that last point: one of the arguments for increased global wealth and/or population is that it would increase the number of geniuses and intellectuals (along with the rest of the population, one might suppose). That's possibly true, but I strongly suspect that the existing mechanisms for recognizing and promoting talent have already encroached on much of those possible gains. Not all, but a considerable fraction. Which means that the additional benefit would be smaller than a naive estimate would suggest.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by CGudapati on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:05AM (#7113855)
Is this true? I am from India and want to do a PhD in US. I thought the work opportunities of PhD gards is good.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by mattlutze on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:44AM (#7114122)
It is very variable depending on your subject and research focus.

Teaching opportunities are not good; there are far too many PhDs awarded compared to job openings for university positions.

It may be a benefit for private industry work, but remember that a PhD is primarily about showing you can perform rigorous scientific research, and compared to a Masters, matters less (or not at all) in jobs where research is not the focus.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by raindoctor on Wednesday January 29, 2014 @06:10PM (#7147800)
Read about "post doctoral treadmill" and adjunct gigs, which are like second tier faculty. If you get a phd in some programming related field, like compilers, programming languages, networking, yes, you can work for some valley firms. Yes, you can get green card easy, too. But there is no 'secure' employment like the phd grads of 1970s
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by onetwofiveten on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:31AM (#7114229)
I think you're being a bit unrealistic about how people behave. The H1B does give a lot of extra market power to employers because it means the employee has a lot to lose if things go wrong. The threat of being fired carries with it a much greater weight than for regular citizens. Sure, the employee can interview for another job and applying for a transfer is not a difficult process. But, even with another job, the threat of being fired is still a huge pressure. Plus, there's still a risk that the employer will find out they are looking for another job before they find one. Also, employees are unlikely to complain or make requests, since rocking the boat could get them fired and sent home. Most people are not risk takers and are not confident at being able to hide things.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by underwater on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:47AM (#7113692)
On the E3 visa - and AFAIK the H1B - you can't be out of work for more than 10 days. If you're not confident you can find a similar salary (and have an approved LCA) within that time then that makes the idea of rocking the boat a little more scary.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by hatred on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:26AM (#7115289)
Well it isn't that easy too if you bring in ethics to the table. This happened with my friend and it was done by a well known "online retail" company. So this guy got an offer from another "search engine" company. He went to his manager in the best interests of his present employer to tell them that he might be leaving in a few weeks and to hire a probable replacement for him. The next thing what this * company does is pass on a request for his H1B to be cancelled immediately. Thankfully , it all worked out for him in the end since his LCA luckily had already been filed by then. But this does bring into the question of how H1B is readily exploited by most employers.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dmnd on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:40AM (#7113796)
I'm not keen to defend the ridiculous immigration system, but it's possible to avoid this risk in the following way:

You can interview at, accept an offer from, apply for and receive a new LCA for another company all while continuing to work at your existing job. This means you have a new job and (preparatory documents for a new) visa set up before even giving notice and triggering the 10 day period. I know this from personal experience (on the E3).

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dredmorbius on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:19AM (#7113881)
That remains a constraint a permanent resident wouldn't have to face.

More specifically: in a case where an H1B holder had concern for employer retaliation (say: working for a sketchy, illegal, or otherwise undesirable firm), and was looking for an option to leave (or possibly whistle blow), the fact that not having employment would be grounds for deportation within short order would be a constant threat.

I've known many people over the years who've had varying levels of frustrations with emigration issues. Many spent at least some of that time as undocumented, what some like to call "illegal", including working without authorization. For others it was merely the frustration of waiting while an impenetrable and slow process worked its way, with several having to make unavoidable trips out of country to be able to retain eligibility, often leaving work, friends, family, and homes for extended periods (sometimes with greater levels of support and assistance). And this isn't just a DESI situation: Europeans, Canadians, east Asians, doctors, programmers, healthcare professionals, researchers, nurses.

Most eventually settled in the US, some did not.

All had a considerable toll taken on them.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dmnd on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:41AM (#7113938)
Oh, of course. I completely agree that the system is horrific. I only wanted to point out how one can minimize their risk if one is forced to interact with it.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by emmapersky on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:01AM (#7113572)
No, its not that simple. The new company still has to file a petition for H1B, its just not subject to quota like a first time H1B.

its not hard but no way is it as simple as being a citizen.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by turar on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:36AM (#7113660)
Yes, but I don't think they need to wait for it to get approved. It's a formality.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by enraged_camel on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:29AM (#7113905)
You are wrong. It needs to be approved, which can take months unless you pay extra for "premium processing."
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by tricolon on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:34AM (#7114092)
You are wrong. It only needs to be filed. See the underlined word "filing": http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62W....
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by caniszczyk on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:15AM (#7115603)
He isn't wrong. I've had friends that had their processing take much longer and go into a more detailed review which delayed them taking a job. You can also get your "H1B transfer" denied for the new job even if you're doing a similar job to your old gig
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by turar on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:53AM (#7113551)
+1. H-1B transfer process is much easier than an initial H-1B application process, so moving to a new employer is almost just as easy as if you were a citizen.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by blazespin on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:31AM (#7114231)
Immigration reform is fine but it needs to be balanced by restraints on corporate power to do things like wage theft.

What I'd like to see is things like a complete national abolishment of non-compete agreements as a rider on Immigration Reform.

Conspiring to keep out immigrants is interesting (who doesn't want to pull the ladder up after we're safe), but it if we're honest with ourselves it's not appealing to our better nature.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by rmc on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:14AM (#7114188)
Conversely, it raises the wages of non-USA-ians.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by wutbrodo on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:41PM (#7112615)
Is this the first negative thing you've read about him? None of them are flattering at all, and most of them are at the scumbag/crook level.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ekianjo on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:11AM (#7113595)
And yet he is celebrated in books, media, and movies. That's setting the right example for the kids!
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by wildgift on Friday January 24, 2014 @09:10PM (#7119519)
So was Rockefeller.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by OnyeaboAduba on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:32PM (#7112829)
I don’t want to sound like I am excusing this behavior but this type of thing happens all the time in various other industries all over the country. This is not an isolated sv disease. And as much as it is about money in regards to salaries it’s also about employee retention which is also about money haha.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by Fasebook on Friday January 24, 2014 @08:43PM (#7119436)
What vision? The idea to make technology easy to use? What a mind blowing idea. I'm sure nobody thought of that before, in 10,000 years of human history. But you know, Jobs actually DID IT, he had the balls to hire a bunch of engineers to make his personal phone easier to use, and stiff them over and over systematically, like any business would.. Wait, what exactly did Jobs do? He had a lot of money.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by steveklabnik on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:08PM (#7112467)
For more "Steve Jobs does shady things via email," you might enjoy http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-stev...
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by aragot on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:36AM (#7113922)
Referring to the "Bill Gates does not assume his email is taped" debate, Steve Jobs doesn't seem to care either about those written forsenics.

Which is twice surprising since I've read elsewhere that he was very tight on his own privacy.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by debt on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:01PM (#7112710)
If you are a student, I would still recommend moving to SV. It's probably the best place in the world right now to be a software developer. This wage-theft stuff is for very experienced echelons of engineers.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by peterb on Thursday January 23, 2014 @09:52PM (#7113094)
The wage-theft stuff lowers the curve for everyone, not just the top tier. It lowers the entire wage curve.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by accountoftheday on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:49PM (#7113387)
The article does not support this claim. My reading is that GOOG's HR department kept/keeps the salary curve artificially flat (over-rewarding low performers) to manage pay within a narrow band and thereby prevent having to negotiate with top performers.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by walshemj on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:00PM (#7115922)
Shifting the curve of distribution (changing its Skewness) alters the entire distribution this is basic statistics 101.

A positive skew will effectively reduce all employees wages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewness

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by nerfhammer on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:00AM (#7113417)
This is also an effect of the "flat" org structure. Few annoying managers! and also almost no chance of becoming one of those managers.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by judk on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:29AM (#7113486)
I don't understand how employee A's salary is a factor in whether Employee B gets negotiated with.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by nerfhammer on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:30AM (#7114084)
From the article:

> Google, like the others, used a “salary algorithm” to ensure salaries remained within a tight band across like jobs. Although tech companies like to claim that talent and hard work are rewarded, in private, Google’s “People Ops” department kept overall compensation essentially equitable by making sure that lower-paid employees who performed well got higher salary increases than higher-paid employees who also performed well.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by AutoCorrect on Friday January 24, 2014 @09:59AM (#7115135)
I'm in Atlanta, and our company does this too. So it's not just SV that is keeping salaries low.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by nerfhammer on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:36PM (#7113354)
> If you are a student, I would still recommend moving to SV.

<snark ratio="0.5">My advice would be to make sure you could find a place to live there first</snark>

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by argonaut on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:06AM (#7113427)
Are you from SV? There are plenty of affordable places to live in SV. Just because everyone is talking about how SF is sooo expensive, does not mean you can't live in Berkeley/Oakland/East Palo Alto/other areas.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chipotle_coyote on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:54AM (#7113706)
I'm from Santa Clara, and "affordable" is an extremely relative notion. Silicon Valley itself isn't much cheaper than San Francisco. Berkeley, Oakland and East Palo Alto are not in Silicon Valley. And frankly, they're not as cheap now as they were even 18 months ago. It's still possible to get a one-bedroom apartment for $1000 a month if you look around hard enough, but it's almost certainly going to be small and old.

The big issue is that right now, $1200, even $1300 a month for a one-bedroom apartment in this area would seem quite reasonable, even a bargain. That's banana crazypants. In Sacramento you could get a two-bedroom, one-bath place with all the amenities for under $900 a month without looking too hard. That means that if you were able to telecommute three days a week -- maybe even just two -- it would cost you less to live in Sacramento and take the Capitol Corridor train in to San Francisco on your office days than it would to live pretty much anywhere in the Bay Area.

I'm not advocating that (the thought has clearly occurred to me, but I have too many friends here in SV to want to make getting to them that difficult), but I think it points to a genuine problem with the local economy. The median housing costs across the Bay Area show an implicit assumption that everybody is making Big Tech Money, but they're not -- and some areas are starting to get too expensive even for the people who are making top dollar. This just isn't a sustainable mix.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dmnd on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:50AM (#7113825)
East Palo Alto isn't in Silicon Valley? It's close enough to the Google campus to bike from.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chipotle_coyote on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:01PM (#7117988)
Hmm. I think I'd have to agree with you, actually, not just for the bike proximity. :) I've thought of Silicon Valley as running from Mountain View down toward Los Gatos -- the actual geographic Santa Clara Valley, essentially the South Bay region -- but it would certainly make sense to consider Palo Alto the northern end of it, given the importance of the city and Stanford University to all things silicon (literally and figuratively).
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by dperny on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:22AM (#7113772)
I'm a student in the Deep South, and getting out to the Bay Area is a dream of mine. Here's to hoping the price comes down in the next couple of years.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by jeremyt on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:49AM (#7115844)
Don't listen all the whining. When I moved to San Francisco in 2008 to work on a startup, I rented a small bedroom in a house with an immigrant couple for $450 per month. If you want to make it work, you'll make it work.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by jeremyt on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:03PM (#7116740)
Also, I'm from the south, so feel free to contact me if you need any advice. I've been there; done that.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by krakensden on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:40AM (#7113935)
It's not that bad if you're willing to split a house or apartment. And if you're working for BigCo, affording a place won't be hard. 100K is a lot.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by whywhywhy5 on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:21AM (#7114557)
Sure, if you get a 1 bedroom apartment =/

There are plenty of places with decent rooms you can rent for $800-1000. I paid $825 for my old place in South San Francisco (20 min commute to SF). It was a 2300sqft house shared by 3 others.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chipotle_coyote on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:10PM (#7118056)
Renting just a room isn't always feasible, depending on how much baggage you have in both the literal and figurative sense. When I moved out here 11 years ago from a one-bedroom apartment in Tampa Bay, I did indeed rent just a room from a friend -- and I had to sell a lot of furniture. I've since bought new furniture, and I would not be particularly inclined to give it up. I realize this is my choice, but it's one that you're more likely to face once you get into your 30s (or at any point if you get a family, of course).

And, I think my larger concern about prices still stands. That $825 a month could get you a 1BR place with W/D included in many other cities. Actually, it could get you at least a 1BR/1BA place with W/D in many other cities, and we're not talking "middle of nowhere" type places, either. There are still certainly reasons to live in the Bay Area rather than those other places, but we're paying an awful lot for the privilege.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by argonaut on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:54PM (#7119314)
SV = technology region. SV != actual valley.

Just like Wall Street != actual street.

This is how the media and public use the term SV.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by smartician on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:53AM (#7115881)
Have you looked at SF rents lately? A studio is $2,000+, and a friend just moved into a two bedroom apartment for $4,750/month.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by chipotle_coyote on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:56PM (#7117943)
Well, going by Craigslist you can find 2BR places for less than that -- but it doesn't look it's easy to get much under $3000, and the median seems closer to $4000. I suppose Silicon Valley is still a relative bargain, in the sense that the third or fourth most expensive place to live in the country is cheaper than the first most expensive. :)
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by snappy173 on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:28AM (#7113642)
SV != SF. East Bay -> SF, especially near BART is easy enough. East Bay -> SV is ... may as well be Portland ... Maine.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by argonaut on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:55PM (#7119317)
SV = technology region. SV != actual valley.

Just like Wall Street != actual street.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by tsunamifury on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:20AM (#7113765)
I do it every day.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by textminer on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:45AM (#7113950)
Me too. Forty minute drive from Oakland to Menlo Park.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by sillysaurus2 on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:18AM (#7114047)
I would be troubled by the thought of spending 80 minutes each day trapped in a steel cage. That's 400 minutes per week, or about 300 hours per year just sitting in traffic.

Even if SV were the best place to be an engineer, it's hard to imagine it being worth sacrificing 300 hours per year.

A 10 minute commute is 25% of that, which is 75 hours per year, which is still a lot. But for me, there is a huge psychological difference between a 10 minute commute vs 40.

Is it worth it? What are the benefits?

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ufmace on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:39PM (#7117822)
Cutting commutes up into hours per year doesn't seem all that useful. Lots of stuff takes up what sounds like ridiculous amounts of time if you look at it like that. I'd rather look at it in terms of your day.

If you plan to spend 8-9ish hours actually working, and another 10 per day on sleeping, eating, shower, and other such necessities, that leaves about 5 hours of real free time. A hour and a half a day of commute time is a pretty solid cut into that. 20 minutes of commute time is hardly noticable. Personally, I'd sooner take the 10 minute commute and have that mental seperation between work time and off time than have an extra 20 minutes a day and work at home.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by bcbrown on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:57PM (#7116264)
I've done a not-quite-so-bad commute, Seattle to Redmond, only 20-40 minutes on the way to work, 50-70 minutes on the way home. I found it soul-crushing. Most of the wait on the way home was in the line to get on the freeway. I became a worse person, unwilling to let other cars merge in, always assuming the worst of other drivers.

Currently I have a 20 minute pleasant bus commute to work, and I wouldn't go back to that commute. For me, it wasn't worth it.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by xxpor on Saturday January 25, 2014 @12:47AM (#7119999)
You drove from Seattle to Redmond? Why would you do that to yourself. (Assuming you're talking about MS) why wouldn't you take the 545/542/Connector?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by mattdeboard on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:44AM (#7114628)
For about six months I commuted from south San Jose to Mountain View. It was a fucking nightmare. I will never in my life live in a situation that requires such a commute.

Of course, now I live in the midwest and am hating the weather. My commute? Not so bad. But I miss the weather.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by jknightco on Friday January 24, 2014 @09:02AM (#7114866)
I came to the conclusion last time I was visiting SV that Northern California actually has terrible weather, everyone there just calls it 'traffic.' ;)
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by khuey on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:01AM (#7113569)
Commuting from Berkeley/Oakland to SV is not fun.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by kyleblarson on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:04PM (#7116310)
Yeah, they are practically laying out the red carpet for tech transplants. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/23/google-engineer-...
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by unohoo on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:17AM (#7113611)
east palo alto ? are. you. serious ?
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by robertkrahn01 on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:36AM (#7113661)
East Palo Alto Struggles to Remain Affordable for Low-Income Residents [http://www.kqed.org/a/forum/R201401171000]
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by krakensden on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:32PM (#7116117)
It's not 1995 anymore.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by sbilstein on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:48PM (#7116215)
If you write code or do something meaningful in tech, the money and housing will come in SV. If you are reading hacker news, you probably are planning on doing something of the sort.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by robyates on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:49AM (#7113696)
Agreed, there many good positions for new college grads. I don't think there is any better location than SV when starting a software engineering career.

While housing prices are quite high, working in technology you are certainly able to afford the higher rents. The problem is when you don't work in tech and live here.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ryanSrich on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:46AM (#7115429)
I'd have to respectfully disagree. While I've never worked in the valley I have researched and interviewed with 10+ companies there.

My findings were that startups there are extremely busy. They are slow to respond to emails, meetings and interviews are often missed/rescheduled, and salaries are relatively low (<100k). When talking to execs it became clear that they demand 45+ hours a week.

Compare that to Austin, Seattle, DC, Chicago, and Portland, who all have thriving startup communities that often match SV wages, and SV starts to look less appealing.

SV working conditions are not something a college grad should strive for. They should focus on locking down a nice salary with relatively cheap living costs, clearing themselves of debt, and growing their personal worth with side projects.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by caniszczyk on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:15AM (#7115609)
This man knows what he's talking about, listen to him kids
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by debt on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:43PM (#7116590)
I want to agree, but the scene here is really incomparable to anywhere else. There's simply too much damn VC money floating around which attracts top business people. Chicago does not have billions of dollars of VC floating around. Austin might. DC does not.

Also, the wages here in SV can not be matched anywhere else. It's economically impossible to pay someone a SV wage anywhere else. Economically impossible because if you're a business that has intentionally based your company in say DC then why would you continue to pay your engineers SV-sized wages. You'd be amongst the wealthiest people in DC if you were paid what a typical engineer is offered here.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ryanSrich on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:02PM (#7117992)
I'm not sure how reliable indeed is but doing a quick search shows that the average salary for a Web Developer in DC is $105,000. It says the average for a Web Developer in San Francisco (the most expensive city in SV) is $114,000. Now that roughly $10k difference could seem like a lot to some but they'd be mislead to think that money wont get eaten up by SFs extreme cost of living.

>...your company in say DC then why would you continue to pay your engineers SV-sized wages.

Because you value great employees? I mean think of it this way. A lot of people can't just pack up ship and move to SF. But a lot people can! Companies keep their salaries on par with the valley to keep up. Granted the numbers aren't a science. It is hard to compare salaries in different areas but It has been my experience that SV wages are not that much more than any other city in the US.

> You'd be amongst the wealthiest people in DC if you were paid what a typical engineer is offered here

This is just blatantly false. Do you know how much government workers and politician minions make? It makes engineering salaries look laughable.

1.) http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-Washington,-D...

2.) http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Web+Developer&l1=San+francis...

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by phamilton on Sunday January 26, 2014 @12:19PM (#7125809)
I suspect that those numbers don't tell enough of the story. The range of salaries in SV is huge. Netflix routinely pays more than 200k. Tiny startups pay < 100k. I don't imagine you see such a variance in DC. 50th percentile might only be 10k apart but I suspect the gap widens as you get deeper into the "above average space".

I do think that a developer getting paid 300k (not unheard of for top talent at top companies) in a place like Austin would be ridiculous.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by kriro on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:34AM (#7115338)
Well if you care for privacy and data protection I'd recommend not moving to SV. Most places are not a lot better but many places at least try harder/care at all.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by tomphoolery on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:15PM (#7112773)
It's hard to say, from just this snippet. You forgot to mention that Chizen tried to slime his way out of the problem by claiming he was only hiring junior-level staff. So Steve responded, rather sarcastically, "Okay, so everyone is open game then?", and then Chizen goes "No I was just kidding! Let's just be friends! Tee hee!".

I mean, Steve was a douche for a lot of other reasons. But this is savvy business right here. He had Chizen by the balls. Considering there's no mention of Apple intentionally trying to recruit from other companies in this article, I have to assume (until other evidence is provided, of course) that Apple was not doing such things.

To me it sounds like Steve knew he had the advantage, and he exploited that to keep his top talent where they were.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by icambron on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:50PM (#7113248)
He was also breaking the law.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by aragot on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:33AM (#7113916)
And compelled Chizen to stay in the game.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by ZeroGravitas on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:36PM (#7118242)
"he exploited that to keep his top talent where they were" ... rather than pay them market rate wages.

Savvy business and being a "douche" seem to overlap here.

Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by bjourne on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:56AM (#7113983)
Of course they do. They extend everywhere in the world. That's why sensible people form wage-stealing-back pacts, also known as "unions."
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by primelens on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:55PM (#7112385)
All of this is so very Godfather ... we should be glad no one woke up next to horse's heads.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by outside1234 on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:30AM (#7115316)
Jobs was an asshole. He was a sociopath, like many of the folks in this article.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by MagicWishMonkey on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:13AM (#7115205)
This would definitely depress wages throughout the industry, SV doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by n6mac41717 on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:04PM (#7116747)
I think you can assume that this kind of thing goes on outside of SV, so it shouldn't color your relocation-to-SV utility curve...
Re:How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engi... by coronadelmar on Friday January 24, 2014 @02:25PM (#7117199)
In what moral universe is offering someone a job (and a better paying one) being an asshole?

Additionally, this is gossip and presumption.