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Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by yahthatsart on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:08PM (#50066106)
The way the US is aggressively footgunning itself, while China (and others) win by default is so frustrating. The US could have invested in clean energy, in social programs to help towns experiencing economic depression.

Like, it's really not that hard. Yes, we'd have to squeeze the richest people and share a little more equally. But not even that much. Like, the rich would still be astonishingly wealthy.

It's just... devastating to see oligarchs who can't just accept being slightly less oligarchic resulting in the collapse of an entire country.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by LPisGood on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:53PM (#50066442)
Sometimes I think about the infrastructure projects that could’ve been done instead of a war in Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran.

It’s shocking really how wasteful the leaders of the United States can be.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by verdverm on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:57PM (#50066485)
Unironically, Biden's Infra Act was held up by the other acts and policies favored by the left/democrats. America loves to pay more and get less across many areas of economy and society, which is the same reason we are facing a rise in populism. People will try other forms of government if they current one cannot deliver on the promises.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Buttons840 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:22AM (#50066681)
You're right. People will roll the dice if the government isn't working for them. That's why we got Trump, both times. Harris's campaign was clear, "it will be more of the same", and people didn't like that so they rolled the dice on Trump. They will roll the dice again too, maybe one day we'll roll the dice on trying a new form of government.

We haven't had any big changes for a very long time. People want change. They felt Trump was the change candidate, so they tried him.

Obama did the ACA, which was a compromise with Republicans by implementing the Republican plan, that was the most recent substantial change I can thing of, but it doesn't actually fix anything fundamental (and Republicans are forever at a loss about how to fix healthcare, because their plan was already implemented by Obama, so they can't actually say anything good about their own plan).

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by lukeify on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:16PM (#50066172)
Political polarisation is also at a point where it's become sports team-esque. People are willing to go to further extremes to dunk on the other side, even if it means the stadium is becoming increasingly messy.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by mapontosevenths on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:06AM (#50066553)
How to defeat America: Wait.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by elcritch on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @01:46AM (#50067263)
More than that, China funds polarization and disinformation projects in the west. Recently they've been seemingly funding anti-AI rhetoric in the US (1). There's allegations they're funding pro-Palestine protests in the UK (2).

Makes sense to sow discord among your rivals. The US certainly does the same.

1: https://www.axios.com/2026/08/28/china-ai-data-center-backla... 2: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/08/13/china-funding-pr...

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by yahthatsart on Thursday October 15, 2026 @12:34AM (#50099183)
Pro Palestine protests come from people looking at Genocide and going, "I don't like genocide. We should not support genocide."

It's not particularly complicated. Anyone looking for a more complicated geopolitical actor here is ignoring the very, very obvious root cause -- genocide is bad.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by mapontosevenths on Thursday October 15, 2026 @02:04PM (#50107644)
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." - The 1988 Hamas Covenant

Israel is fighting a war for it's very existence against an enemy whose very founding documents encode the idea that there can never be peace until Israel is destroyed. After October 7th Hamas doubled down and said they would not rest as long as they lived. Still they insist, even after all the destruction.

What choice does Israel have except to grant them their wish and fight until none of them live? They will not accept surrender, and they will never rest until Israel has been annihilated. They have insisted on that point since the 80's and on October 7th they proved that they are still dedicated to that principle. How could anyone doubt their convictions? Hamas means what they say, and what they say is that as long as they live they will continue to attack Israel.

Do you honestly believe there can ever be peace with someone who has sworn to their God that there can never be peace?

I don't have any personal stake in this, and I'm sorry if you do. It's just that from an outside perspective I can't understand yours at all.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Buttons840 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:31PM (#50066283)
The oligarchs don't care. If they can make a buck ruining the US, they will, and then they'll move to another country whenever it's convenient for them and do it all again. Borders don't really exist for them.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by jimbokun on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:40PM (#50066342)
Our current President first and foremost among them.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by rgbrenner on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:39PM (#50066336)
and yet the oversupply of investment funds looking for projects created the current AI boom here in America, not China.

China “leads” but only in iterating on things already invented.

but we never ask what’s wrong with china that they spend so much on r&d but fail to invent novel things.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by asdff on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:20AM (#50066663)
You go to a chinese city today it looks like the future short of flying cars. All the novel things we invent here and cities look the same as they did 30 years ago, only more people in tarps on the side of the road.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by singingtoday on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:59AM (#50066930)
They have flying taxies in guangzhou. Though they're prototypes and I wouldn't use one.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by FooBarWidget on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @02:07AM (#50067446)
What is "wrong" is that they have a culture of being conversative when it comes to 0-1 innovation. Everything is set up to reward concrete results. With 0-1 innovation you have no idea whether it's viable, so few people have the risk appetite and would rather pursue proven venues.

But westerners also underestimate the importance of 1-10 innovation. Scaling manufacturing and iterating on existing concepts are not at all trivial, and are also very valuable.

0-1 and 1-10 are complementary. Unfortunately, many people deliberately turn this into a pissing contest by accusing the Chinese of "only being able to steal" while ignoring how their own country is unable to produce basic goods like masks on a large a cheap scale, and can't fix a brige for less than xx million.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by safety1st on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:08AM (#50066565)
With all due respect to what I'm sure was a well meaning comment, I think your comment is also an example of why the problem IS hard. Lots of Americans think a vague prescription of "squeezing the richest a little more" is the answer to everything, including apparently declining R&D expenditures. It's not. More clean energy deployments and more social programs are not bad things but they also will not solve this problem.

If we want to fix this there are probably two broad levers that need to be pulled. Notably indiscriminately "squeezing the billionaires" isn't one of them because you want to encourage capital to invest in the US:

1) The US has developed a real problem with production quality/capability, it makes a lot of spam and trash, it increasingly can't make anything at home, etc. The two big trends driving this have been a reduction of competition in its domestic market (i.e. monopolies emerging) and a broad range of policies which encourage US companies to design stuff, license out and have the production done overseas by someone who promptly steals and copies it... hello China. What's needed here to actually make the US economy "great again" are strong enforcement of anti-trust laws and some kind of legal framework where the incentive is to not just design in the US but also build there. This certainly puts limits on what "the billionaires" can do but by no means is it really "squeezing" them or trying to limit what they can earn in the US. You want the capital to get deployed in America but under a legal framework that's aligned with productivity, innovation and job creation as well as profits. This is how you get private R&D going again. The US framework is more "scams and profits" at this point.

2) On the public side, the US formerly had amazing federal support for R&D. This sounds like it should be easy to fix but I don't really think it is. The government is not as healthy fiscally as it once was, and there used to be more public appetite for science and technology related expenditures; Americans seem more enamored with get rich quick schemes than with a STEM education these days. If you're a politician who is going to reward you for supporting big federal investment in long-term, moonshot R&D? Voters won't, the capital class won't. So personally I don't see much of a solution here without a cultural shift occurring first, we need to believe as a society that long term research and innovation can make a more perfect world, but due to the realities of the modern slopconomy we believe the exact opposite.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by singingtoday on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @01:01AM (#50066940)
It's not stealing, it's learning. The original person still has it. Copied, duplicated, sure. But not stolen.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by mindslight on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @03:11PM (#50077007)
Your #1 is exactly one of the things people mean when they bemoan oligarchs destroying the country. Rather than compete in a market, they buy off the government to approve mergers so they don't have to compete.

Your #2 "not as healthy fiscally" is itself an oligarch narrative. Spending money to invest for the future is a sensible thing to do, and the US has the world reserve currency so we don't even need to borrow to do that but rather can make new money as long as others believe we will have a good future. But every time this fake austerity narrative gains a foothold, it's used to destroy spending that had been investing in the future (with jobs/incomes that were going into the distributed economy!), while actually creating even more monetary inflation than there had been - but it goes right into the oligarch's pockets! In order for your argument to be true, voters would have to actually punish politicians for wasteful spending. Given that Republicans specifically have been running this fake austerity scam for decades and getting away with it, it is clear voters do not. What voters actually seem to respond to is feel-good propaganda, which is exactly what the fake austerity narrative is.

Meanwhile the whole point of "clean energy" in this context is that it's a widespread distributed project that creates real jobs that produce tangible useful assets. Much better than the oligarchs' preference for fake make-work jobs like that whole healthcare denial industry.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bruce511 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:19PM (#50066194)
It's easy to blame the rich here. And certainly they are the ones doing the damage and reaping the rewards.

But a third of Americans approve of the current administration. Around half of the people who voted, voted for this administration. And a lot of the footguns you refer to were gleefully part of the campaign.

If you want to apportion blame you might include moderate voters who may not approve of the status quo, but alas are so partisan that they cannot vote for the other side.

With more elections imminent, it remains to be seen if it's really the oligarchs fault, or if the root fault is the real source of power.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by knowaveragejoe on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:29PM (#50066270)
It's less a masterstroke of the rich, and more the media environment the various voter blocs you mentioned are soaking their minds in 24/7
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bruce511 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:53PM (#50066441)
I understand your point here, between social media (for the young) and TV for the old, there's certainly a lot of sources of information.

I get the urge to find someone to blame. It's not the fault of the voter, because that would imply personal accountability. Or at the very least, it would imply a lot about the underlying character of chunk of the population.

On the other hand, you can't blame the media for gas price reports. Or the cost of housing. Or the people dying of measles. Or the men in masks rounding up people. The voter can see all that themselves.

The voter knows about the current conflict with Iran. That is not a "media bias". They are free to decide themselves if that is justified.

The voter who spends all day on Fox news is welcome to decide for themselves if they want a hand-out of cash promised for after the the election. (A promise they've heard before, but not seen).

So yeah, it eould be nice to blame the oligarchs, or the media, or China, or the church, or pretty much anyone, as long as that anyone is not the voter who can see what is happening, and votes for more of the same.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by StilesCrisis on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:42PM (#50066364)
That media environment was in fact the masterstroke.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bradthebeaverfa on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:30PM (#50066278)
Social programs are the polar opposite of how the US should be spending its money if it wants to outcompete China. Social programs both reduce the incentive for Americans to work while also depriving research/infrastructure projects of funding.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by csnover on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:45PM (#50066381)
Social programs to help towns experiencing economic depression would inject money, training, education, etc. which would create opportunity for new growth and development in areas with a low cost of living. When people are too busy just trying to survive, they are not going to be working on inventing the next big thing, and they certainly are not going to support tax dollars going toward investments for tomorrow.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by jpgvm on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:40PM (#50066339)
Pretty much everywhere has proved that ensuring people have a place to shelter and eat doesn't stop them from wanting to do something with their lives. It's the oldest and most wrong talking point from this debate.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bradthebeaverfa on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:47PM (#50066401)
This is completely wrong. A majority of people only work because it's necessary to put food on the table and purchase other necessities. You know this is true because you can see how many of them choose to do nothing productive with their free time. Basically nobody is performing research in their free time.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bruce511 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:09AM (#50066578)
I concur, a majority are not productive most of the time. However a majority is far from everyone.

Leaving aside for the moment people working multiple jobs for whom free time is a luxury.

Leaving aside working parents who are also raising children who choose to spend that time with them.

Of the rest, though we do see some productive outlets. Open Source Software for example being perhaps the poster child for work done without return.

Or what about those who volunteer? Perhaps in a church context or charity context or whatever.

Or all those with a side hustle, selling home-made goods in weekend markets. Some of that to earn more, some to exercise their creativity.

Yes, in countries where there are sufficient social nets that unemployed people can survive some choose not to work. And yet the overall unemployment numbers in those countries is pretty low.

So maybe "majority" isn't really the right term?

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by vinyl7 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:00AM (#50066500)
I work on hobby projects when I'm not burned out from working + getting all my other stuff done in the remaining 4 hours of the day I have left.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by asdff on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:22AM (#50066686)
People need down time, even researchers.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Timon3 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @05:08AM (#50068792)
When someone tries to argue based solely on "common sense logic" like this comment, we all know it's baseless. If there was any truth to your statement, you'd refer to statistics that show your idea to be true, but it isn't.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Buttons840 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:37PM (#50066324)
Doesn't China have better social programs? They have universal healthcare.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bradthebeaverfa on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:43PM (#50066374)
No? Chinese people have to work 6 days a week for a lower quality of living than a minimum wage American.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Buttons840 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:04AM (#50066533)
China has labor laws similar to the US. 40 hour work weeks, extra pay for overtime or for having to work weekends. They just don't enforce them very well. That's what my research tells me anyway, am I wrong?
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by olyjohn on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:55AM (#50066894)
You are not wrong about the laws, but people are working in factories doing 12 hour days 7 days a week. Yes they get overtime, but that's because you can't even afford to live with a roommate in run down company dorms on a standard 5 day work week. Its still slave labor over there. This amount of work nets workers about $1000USD per month, and this is in foreign owned factories which are much more regulated than the locally owned ones.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by seanmcdirmid on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:51PM (#50066428)
If you work in China, you get their universal healthcare but you still need a private insurance policy. It’s hard to explain though, you wouldn’t be completely up sh*t creek without a private policy, but some things become really inconvenient, and the standard of care is different (bring your own nurse in the public plan).

China sort has welfare but the hukou system means most people who need it don't qualify in the city they live in.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by mc32 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:54PM (#50066448)
No they don't:

If you work, you automatically get enrolled in a hybrid healthcare system (state+private)

If you are young or elderly you get automatic coverage.

If you are working age but have no job --then you get basic healthcare (not comprehensive)

Lots of people who can afford will buy private insurance on top if they have a serious illness (basic healthcare is not comprehensive)

Also copays and high deductibles. People can end up footing 20 to 50% of their medical bills (out of pocket).

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by handle584 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @05:05AM (#50068760)
Pretty spot on for most urban ppl, a few comments

- Private insurance is always up to one's own, very few employers provide this.

- If young, your parents or yourself have to pay for coverage until you graduate, otherwise no coverage.

- If elderly, depends on your employment history. To qualify, your employers have to contribute continuously for decades and it's tied with social security. Otherwise you are on your own.

- If working age but no job, similar to being young you have to pay.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Daishiman on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:43PM (#50066366)
It's amazing how people think this is true when by every known metric, people who are given a minimally comfortable life almost always end up being far more productive members of society than those who are not.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by Buttons840 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:40PM (#50066351)
If it is about "incentivizing people to work" and getting warm butts in chairs or out swinging hammers... well, how are we going to compete with a country that has 4x the number of warm bodies?

We can't compete with China via the number of people we have working.

We need to build a functioning society instead of a group of rugged individual capitalists who only come together when we need to help out the wealthy with a bail out or tax break.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by kelseyfrog on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:37PM (#50066321)
That is why China is losing to the US. China massively more social programs than the US and it has reduced their economy to shambles because no one has incentive.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bradthebeaverfa on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:50PM (#50066419)
China forces its citizens to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. The idea that it has better social programs than the US is utterly laughable.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by nmfisher on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:53AM (#50066882)
> China forces its citizens to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

As someone who lived there for 5 years, this is laughable and totally untrue.

I'm guessing you heard that some tech companies have a 996 policy and inferred that the government is somehow imposing this on every single worker in China.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by kelseyfrog on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @01:55AM (#50067341)
As someone whose only idea of China is what I see in western media and what I project onto it based on my deepest fears, it is 100% true.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by handle584 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @05:12AM (#50068821)
> some tech companies

Actually most, programmers have protested a few years ago to no veil. The movement is called 996.icu if you are interested, and they complied lists of companies that run 996 schedule and the normal 955.

> the government is somehow imposing this on every single worker

Of course not, the gov with communism in its name is simply not enforcing their own labor law and cracking down labor movements.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by edg5000 on Monday October 12, 2026 @11:47PM (#50066396)
Shambles?
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by rw2 on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:18AM (#50066652)
you think China is winning?

China is already in a depression and is just recovering, youth unemployment is high and it has maxed out development.

Government stats lies all the time you only need to look at their stock market for the real info.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by singingtoday on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:57AM (#50066909)
Winning is a strong word, but they have significantly higher home ownership, purchasing power, less drug addiction, and generally safer big cities.

I believe the average worker in a tier 1-3 Chinese city is better off than a living in a North American City. Or at least, my content feed leads me to think this way.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by rw2 on Wednesday October 14, 2026 @12:57AM (#50082569)
The section 8 people in the US lives better than an average worker in a tier 1 city. Their apartment rentals are inhuman and they make 1/10 of American minimum wage. They can't get a gf and have to resort to prostitutes because of the gender inbalance. Even homeless people have gfs in the US.
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by FooBarWidget on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @01:56AM (#50067351)
Have you looked at China from 15 years ago? It was also said to be in a depression and youth unemployment was also high. Just look at articles from back then.

What people don't seem to understand is that China is developing in stages. Every 10 years there is a new stage, a new revolution, with different winners and losers. Maxxing out on the previous growth engine was already forseen 10 years ago. That's why they bit the bullet and decided to pay the price to transition to the next growth engine. All transitions are painful.

Besides, these are Chinese we're talking about. They'd even complain about the economy being bad even when it's growing 10% and they drive away in 2 luxury cars. When they say they're "barely surviving" they mean their savings account isn't growing.

When you look at the bad economy in China, are you looking at the costs, or are you looking at the development goals? Development goals have costs, not paying those costs to reach goals has even bigger costs pater on. The Made in China 2025 goals have already been largely achieved.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by bmitc on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @12:24AM (#50066704)
Sources?

What does the stock market have to do with anything?

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by FooBarWidget on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @02:00AM (#50067397)
It doesn't, at all. Unlike the US (and to a lesser extend, Europe), Chinese do not have a majority of their wealth invested in stocks.

Besides, the Chinese st9ck market has been atrocious since.... pretty much forever. You'd think they still live in mud pools if you think the stock market is representative of overall development.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by rw2 on Wednesday October 14, 2026 @12:59AM (#50082582)
It's representative of their commerce which is the real economic activity in their country.

Most wealth in China are calculated from real estate which doesn't generate any economic activity on it's own and they build more houses than they will live in. Most US wealth are actually from real corporation flow.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by nec4b on Tuesday October 13, 2026 @11:57AM (#50073778)
> Yes, we'd have to squeeze the richest people and share a little more equally.

China rejected the ideology of squeezing the rich and became wealthy. Why would you like to do exact opposite and expect to come on top?

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by yahthatsart on Thursday October 15, 2026 @12:37AM (#50099201)
China taxes income over $12k/year at 45%.

The US taxes income over $626k/year at 37%, and offers STEEP discounts on that rate if your income is from capital gains.

Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by raven12345 on Thursday October 15, 2026 @04:01AM (#50100690)
maybe typo? but i think $120k/year at 45% is more reasonable
Re:China Overtakes U.S. For First Time as Top Spender on R&D... by nec4b on Thursday October 15, 2026 @04:01AM (#50100691)
You made a mistake, an order of magnitude. It's over 135k per year taxed at 45%. Of course none of the rich people pay this tax, because they don't receive salaries.