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Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by jey on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:32PM (#49960091)
Seems wild that they can code and deploy an update of a critical-seeming component in the field like that. I thought such a firmware update would need extensive QA in the lab, along with root causing why this bug slipped through their processes anyway.

But maybe that's the difference between shipping a controller for F1 versus shipping one for an industrial or consumer product? shrug.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by DrewADesign on Sunday October 04, 2026 @11:32PM (#49960405)
I have no idea if modern-day SV’s “tests pass… idfk, it’s a web app… LGTM I guess” coding ethos was the cause of this particular bug. However, it’s a great, relatively benign demonstration of why it has absolutely zero fucking place controlling extremely dangerous hardware shooting a human around a race track surrounded by people.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:56AM (#49961509)
Except here, where it's kind of the point of the sport in the first place?
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by DrewADesign on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:53AM (#49964939)
What, software bugs? The point of the sport is driving, not mitigating sloppy bullshit shoved into your car.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by LeoPanthera on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:43PM (#49960152)
It seems they simply disabled a bunch of power limits. Probably just settings, rather than an actual code update.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by avs733 on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:50AM (#49961887)
This is the most likely…they just flipped a setting flag that was causing an unintended conflict.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alistairSH on Monday October 05, 2026 @08:59AM (#49964266)
That was my take - there was a low-power mode/rain mode that was killing power in unexpected ways. Probably trivial to unclip that flag or comment out that bit of code and run "normal mode" instead.

What IS annoying is nobody bothered to test this "rain mode" (or whatever setting it was that they removed between the aborted formation lap and actual race start) prior to racing in Sepang on the cusp of monsoon season.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by k1kingy on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:23AM (#49964556)
Essentially there wasn't enough power going to the turbo which was causing it to spool down. They just allowed more of the electrical power to be used in order to keep the cars running.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by tiffanyh on Sunday October 04, 2026 @11:16PM (#49960319)
F1 are effectively prototype cars.

Every GP is a slightly different car running bleeding edge tech and code.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alistairSH on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:03AM (#49964309)
Yep, the chassis, PU, and aero are all updated almost constantly, with major upgrades a few time per season.

Williams even rolled out completely new chassis (with full homologation/crash) mid-season this year because the first design couldn't come down to minimum weight.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by dylan604 on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:38PM (#49960127)
I'm wondering how good the simulators are. At the start of the season, they were still learning the systems trying to figure out why they were losing power in the straights. So depending on the driver, issues may or may not become apparent. That's like trying to debug why an email can only be sent to a recipient less than 500 miles away.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by rossriley on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:53PM (#49960202)
Anthony Davidson who is the Mercedes test driver said that the teams can simulate these scenarios and it seemed that the Mercedes cars were not affected so it seems that other teams hadn't done similar testing in various scenarios.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by altmanaltman on Sunday October 04, 2026 @11:19PM (#49960336)
One of the mercedes literally broke down and did not finish the race. They might not have faced the issue during the first time they went out in that race but Merc reliablity has been very shaky. And ofc Ant will talk only good things about Mercedes. But this is not the type of things they use the driver simulator for, it is to help the drivers train. These types of issues don't make sense to spend simulator time on with the driver in it
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by dylan604 on Monday October 05, 2026 @12:31AM (#49960696)
Seems a lot better place to learn than in the middle of the race and earning $0 for the race. Isn't that the entire point of a simulator to learn things that are too expensive to learn in the real world?
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by michaelt on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:40AM (#49961397)
There's more than one type of simulator, and F1 has certain 'spending caps', after a spending war bankrupted bunch of teams.

Wind tunnel time and aerodynamics simulator time are included in the cost cap, as are car parts and most staff (but not driver salaries, travel or marketing)

Drivers can spend all the time they want in standard consumer sim racing rigs, practising the tracks. But when it's the type of extra-high-fidelity simulator that lets you make the car better - that's subject to the cost cap.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:05AM (#49961586)
> but not driver salaries, travel or marketing

I assume someone is already offering an extremely high-fidelity CFD simulator (or a wind tunnel) to help companies shoot awesome videos of their cars, for purposes of including them in TV spots, of course.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by rurban on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:44AM (#49961849)
CFD simulations came at around 2010. Redbull had the best of them, that's why they took over from Mercedes-McLaren those years.

I worked on engine and powertrain simulations, and my compiler was used for vehicle and driver simulations. This was built for Honda, but Honda left, bought by Mercedes, and won them several championships.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by gpderetta on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:22AM (#49962990)
In fact there is a very specific cap on CFD simulations beyond the normal cost cap, to prevent an HPC arm race. Used to be an actual flop cap, but of course teams found way around it, now it is more complicated.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by altmanaltman on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:12AM (#49961237)
> Seems a lot better place to learn than in the middle of the race and earning $0 for the race.

That's... not how it works at all, though. There are no prizes for individual races and the championship money is also pennies to the teams.

Mercedes's Kimi Antonelli is going to win the WDC anyway for sure at this point, given the points difference.

> Isn't that the entire point of a simulator to learn things that are too expensive to learn in the real world?

You're right but this is not those expensive things. Track time is extremely limited, so the primary role of the sim is to develop the car and how it feels to the drivers, mainly so the setup feels perfect to them.

System-level bugs etc must have their own testing but sim is mainly for driver-engineer testing. Many drivers also don't like using the sim at all like Hamilton.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alistairSH on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:14AM (#49964436)
the championship money is also pennies to the teams

The constructors championship money is absolutely a massive impact for the teams. Last place (11th) is estimated at ~$50 million, 5th place is estimated ~$100 million, and 1st place ~$140 million. For a team like Williams or Haas, every position they move up the ranking makes a substantial budget impact (both of those have estimated total budgets ~$230 million). Even for one of the big 4, with budgets in the $400 million range, the $40 million swing from 4th to 1st is not insignificant.

Heck, Otmar had to pay his staff out of his own pocket back in the day (I don't remember what cost-cap was in place back then - I think that was during his time at Force India). Those lower teams are more stable now that 20 years ago, but still struggle to get enough sponsor money to compete.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by jcomp on Monday October 05, 2026 @12:32AM (#49960702)
Interesting that both Mercedes also had great starts relative to the Red Bull that was affected, wonder if that’s somehow related
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by _thisdot on Monday October 05, 2026 @12:42AM (#49960755)
Piastri and Norris, both on Mercedes engines, seem to have been affected. Not to mention the start of this season where McLaren allegedly forgot to upgrade the firmware on their Mercedes engines and couldn't run more than a few laps for two races.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by rossriley on Monday October 05, 2026 @05:42AM (#49962657)
I imagine this is handled at a team level though, Red Bull were giving Max instructions over the radio to keep the revs at a certain level. Presumably if the team had simulated these conditions they'd have discovered the potential problem and then come up with a process to mitigate it.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alistairSH on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:05AM (#49964331)
McLaren uses Mercedes PUs, but aside from the mandated FIA ECU software and anything Mercedes needs them to run, they mostly write their own control software. AFAIK, this is true for all the teams that buy their PUs.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by monkeydust on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:49AM (#49961886)
Right. There's plenty of software simulators in racing so was surprised their testing harness doesn't use one.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by degamad on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:02AM (#49961185)
> trying to debug why an email can only be sent to a recipient less than 500 miles away.

Ah, a student of the old masters....

(For the uninitiated, or those who wish to relive the memory: https://www.ibiblio.org/harris/500milemail.html )

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by johnwalkr on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:56AM (#49961513)
The simulators have the ECU in the loop but of course most of the inputs are simulated and they come from models for car dynamics and all kinds of behavior that have a lot of correlations and assumptions built in. As in a flight sim, some of the models are empirical (more like curve-fitting than simulation of physics). Losing power in straights is something a team would be highly motivated to see predicted in the simulator as that’s within normal conditions. But it’s not surprising the simulator can’t predict some edge cases, you’d need to get a lot of things right in the modeling and think of weird inputs.

What they probably could do yesterday, on top of checking a ton of telemetry, is understand which inputs were weird and put those into a simulator and get some hints for the FIA to work with. If you’re not aware, the FIA provides the ECU to all teams so that the telemetry used to check compliances and power modes are fair across all teams, and things like traction control are not there. This is why the FIA had to provide the firmware update.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by raverbashing on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:11AM (#49962902)
I think simulations play more into the strategy than on the power curves of the cars (though they probably calibrate that on pre-season training)
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by mhh__ on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:33AM (#49963073)
They have people in sim almost all the time / as much as allowed during the weekend.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by rapidfl on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:38PM (#49960128)
It was probably just "config" changes or changing some hard-coded constants. So relatively straightforward.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by chrisandchris on Monday October 05, 2026 @01:31AM (#49961030)
> just

Sometimes we bring down whole services with "just" config (looking at you, DNS).

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by mvlipwig on Sunday October 04, 2026 @10:55PM (#49960206)
I think those engineers had some memories of their FSAE / FSUK days during that patch.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by atmosx on Monday October 05, 2026 @01:22AM (#49960972)
> Seems wild that they can code and deploy an update of a critical-seeming component in the field like that. I thought such a firmware update would need extensive QA in the lab, along with root causing why this bug slipped through their processes anyway.

These cars are in a perpetual Q&A state, they are getting modified between races. That's true for the "big teams", small teams don't have the resources, they're just "happy to be there". That's why it's possible to see stories like Brawn GP[^1]. That's what makes the sport fascinating, because the overtakes are not as much as one would hope for a ~2-3 hours race. But every little thing counts. In the last race 1st and 2nd had ~103ms diff or something like that for example, which is something that didn't happen for 15-20 years (maybe more).

[^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd3miTpvUmI

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by OtherShrezzing on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:52AM (#49961900)
> That's true for the "big teams", small teams don't have the resources, they're just "happy to be there".

This isn't really the case anymore. There's a budget cap, and all of the teams are financially sound most of the time. While the poorer teams might bring fewer upgrades in a year, they still bring upgrades all year long, and R&D is a continuous process in every F1 factory these days. Smaller teams also get additional R&D, compute, and testing time compared to the big teams.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by gpderetta on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:17AM (#49962947)
Indeed. Haas is the only team that failed to hit the budget cap (while still being significantly ahead of AM and Williams).
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by pmontra on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:27AM (#49961719)
Actually there is a budget cap so small teams have the same resources of big teams. However big teams have an advantage. They assembled a better team and a better network. This is from the team principal of Williams, one of the teams at the bottom of the rankings https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/cost-cap-creating-two-tie...
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by ozim on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:44AM (#49964819)
Article you linked is absolutely unreadable. Just rambling „cost cap is not bad, we have sustainable sport but smaller teams are worse off”.

Two important informations are buried like „now smaller teams take podium 5% of time instead of of 10%” and „cost cap administration is a burden” and they there are no clear guidelines on what is in the cap and what not.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by justin66 on Monday October 05, 2026 @10:35AM (#49965451)
> Actually there is a budget cap so small teams have the same resources of big teams.

Not really. The budget cap does not include the salaries of active drivers and the three highest paid non-driver employees, as well as some other odds and ends.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by bena on Monday October 05, 2026 @10:41AM (#49965520)
Where does that cap apply?

In most major league sports in the US, there is some form of salary cap, but it really only applies to players. Organizations can spend money on other things as they wish. That applies to coaching, front office, facilities, etc.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by pmontra on Wednesday October 07, 2026 @02:01AM (#49988871)
Players are the most important asset in most sports, especially the ones without tools. All forms of football and I think every game played with a ball shared with the opponents. I assume that all pro players of tennis, golf, cricket, baseball use tools of about the same quality.

In motorsport and in Formula 1 not so much. If a team has a dominant car, let's say half a second faster than the second best, the championship is an internal matter between its drivers. Any second tier driver sitting in one of those two cars can be world champion. The only opponent is the team mate. So most of the money goes into the car.

The Formula 1 cost cap applies to all expenses with few exceptions. Most notably drivers and the (3?) highest paid employees. Of course you must keep the bosses happy, right? Drivers could become subject to the cap in one of the next years. They won't be happy but what can they do? Furthermore teams will always find somebody to drive their cars even at one tenth of what they are paying now.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by atmosx on Monday October 05, 2026 @11:41AM (#49966317)
The link you shared says clearly that budget cap made things worse, with data apparently. But they don't think it's the wrong move, it's the right move but doesn't work in the current form.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by netsharc on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:21AM (#49964527)
The 103ms difference is also due to a software glitch, Russell (the winner) said his car wasn't boosting in the final straight at the last lap, Verstappen (P2) was catching him with an energy boost. And the glitch was probably because there was a yellow flag, because a driver (Bottas) crashed, because his car didn't behave like the previous laps and sent him into the barriers...

I've watched F1 for more than 2 decades, from the paragraph above I realize this year's F1 is basically comparable to AI slop...

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by jgalt212 on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:31AM (#49964642)
> I've watched F1 for more than 2 decades, from the paragraph above I realize this year's F1 is basically comparable to AI slop...

F1 has been unsatisfying since the move to hybrid power trains.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by epolanski on Monday October 05, 2026 @10:46AM (#49965578)
Eh, that is the nostalgia ignoring how many crap seasons we had by the end of the previous regulations and how unbalanced F1 used to be.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by jgalt212 on Monday October 05, 2026 @11:11AM (#49965890)
Merc taking 1 and 2 in ever race during the first 8 years of hybrid era is balanced?
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by netsharc on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:26PM (#49968562)
Hyperbolic much?

Lewis vs Nico was at least crazy entertaining. Then there was a Vettel threat one year, then there was the Max vs. Lewis era...

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by myrandomcomment on Monday October 05, 2026 @07:58PM (#49972401)
I agree. You can watch a lot of the old races on various YT channels and also in the F1 app (assuming you pay for it). There are some great races but most are pretty predicable for the big teams with the money, baring any random engine blow-ups.

The real issue is the cars are just too big and heavy. There was a point in time when you could pass someone even in Monaco.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by olyjohn on Tuesday October 06, 2026 @01:38PM (#49981674)
A Chevy Suburban is about 225 inches long. F1 car is about 221 inches long. That's pretty bad.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by Jean-Papoulos on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:12AM (#49961234)
They didn't, it just needed a restart. From the first reports the first car's software genuinely glitched out because of the new track/rain/etc and had to be restarted, the other cars got anti-traction control triggered because going this slow for this long unspools the turbo, which got so bad the detection software made a false positive.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by manarth on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:47AM (#49961869)
there's no traction control or other driver-assistance aids (ABS etc) in f1 cars
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by fragmede on Monday October 05, 2026 @03:56AM (#49961932)
That's what the rules say, anyway. Cheating is part of the game, and @ActuallyVen goes into some of the ways teams have played with the rules.

https://youtube.com/@actuallyven

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by gpderetta on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:24AM (#49963002)
or if it is there, it is definitely, surely, cross my heart, not enabled in prod [1]!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_cheating_during...

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by __m on Monday October 05, 2026 @07:41AM (#49963579)
I think that's what he is saying that the anti-cheat falsy detected it as traction control
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by gambiting on Monday October 05, 2026 @02:23AM (#49961307)
I mean, the article literally says a firmware update was deployed mid race to remove power limits, is the article wrong?
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by mjpa86 on Monday October 05, 2026 @05:27AM (#49962520)
Teams confirmed it was a firmware update on the broadcast. Article is correct.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alistairSH on Monday October 05, 2026 @09:49AM (#49964900)
Not literally mid-race.

The initial formation lap was aborted due to the glitch (caused drivers to slow to a crawl or stop). The cars all went back to the pits. Then there was a long delay while FIA/teams/ECU provider figured out what was wrong. And eventually fixed it via a software update.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by mjpa86 on Monday October 05, 2026 @08:57AM (#49964256)
They did, teams confirmed there was an update being deployed during the delay after the aborted formation lap.

Restarting in Hamilton's case "fixed" it because it removed the condition it was in, if he would have done the lap again, it would have happened again.

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by ddalex on Monday October 05, 2026 @04:41AM (#49962229)
They rolled out a prepared safe defaults version with lots of checks, including the crashing one, removed.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by whizzter on Monday October 05, 2026 @05:28AM (#49962530)
Disabling code is usually safer than enabling, seems they were able to pinpoint this rather quickly.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by alentred on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:06AM (#49962863)
This reminds me of a story how Deep Space 1 was fixed from 100 million miles-away. [1]

[1] https://gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-t... (the last paragraph, search for "remote debugging" in the page)

Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by trentor on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:11AM (#49962898)
It was probably just a json with settings.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by ricardobayes on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:14AM (#49962920)
It was very unlikely there was actual coding involved, as even the C++ build and test toolchain would run for ages (in my automotive days it would run for 45 minutes and that was just build, link and static analysis). In this case it's probably just a config change.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by qznc on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:51AM (#49963209)
It is big difference if a "one in a million" bug is deployed to two vehicles or a million vehicles.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by ChildOfChaos on Monday October 05, 2026 @06:53AM (#49963222)
I believe they likely used software they already had or just changed a software. As from what I read, it removed a certain system and limitions in the software which is used to ensure teams aren't cheating (traction control), which was triggering in error due to the strange conditions of the race. So all they were doing is disabling this system
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by ra on Monday October 05, 2026 @07:20AM (#49963421)
it has to be parameters only
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by chakintosh on Monday October 05, 2026 @08:03AM (#49963731)
The problem was that the ECUs went into limp mode due to multiple factors triggered by the drivers driving slowly (slick tires, wet surface, new PU ... ) and the ECUs are programmed to go into limp mode to protect the ICE, since it had no battery anymore and no turbo boost. The update was simply disabling that failsafe.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by myrandomcomment on Monday October 05, 2026 @08:05PM (#49972451)
On that first formation lap everyone was on Intermediate tiers. Some of the drives moved to the slicks on the restart.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by yitchelle on Monday October 05, 2026 @10:12AM (#49965162)
I betcha that they are also tweaking the parameters of the cars while the cars are racing.
Re:Powerless F1 drivers frustrated by Bahrain F1 software gl... by mooktakim on Monday October 05, 2026 @12:09PM (#49966743)
When things are broken in prod and customers screaming you bypass QA to get the fix live