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Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:29PM (#49366808)
By the time Trump leaves office, the whole federal government will be completely trashed, up to and including the East Wing of the White House being torn down to a hole in the ground.

I've never felt so alienated from the leaders of my industry, from my politicians, and from my fellow citizens. Ya'll should have known better. It is the information age, all ignorance is willful ignorance.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by frogperson on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:21PM (#49367371)
Citizens United ruined the great american experiment. if you have seen the chart of campaign financing since CU, you would understand. Politicians have zero need to represent citizens because they know unlimited funds are available for marketing to keep/earn your seat.

America simply is no longer a democracy or representative democracy.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by qeternity on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:31PM (#49367464)
It is still people, not money, who votes for them over and over again…
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by oth001 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:37PM (#49367530)
Well when the choice is between two corrupt and/or bribed politicians...
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by JKCalhoun on Thursday August 20, 2026 @09:01AM (#49374068)
Agree, vote for the most wildly corrupt.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Timon3 on Thursday August 20, 2026 @06:12AM (#49372611)
And the primary reason for people voting like this is the ungodly sums of money spent on elections, combined with the media apparatus built up by the right.

I don't think any democracy could survive Fox News. Unfortunately the global right is colluding to export this concept across the globe...

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by otterley on Thursday August 20, 2026 @04:52PM (#49380129)
If money won elections, then the outcome of every election could be predicted with accuracy based solely on the relative spending by or on behalf of each candidate.

In reality, that's not how it works. There are countless examples of candidates who outspent their opponents and lost.

Money gets you reach. It doesn't get you guaranteed results.

Besides, the voters don't get any of that money, nor do they even know most of the time who got more financial support. They'd be insulted by even the slightest suggestion that money is driving their vote.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Timon3 on Thursday August 20, 2026 @06:15PM (#49380994)
I didn't say that money wins elections, but nice try.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if conservatives could affect more voters with the same amount of money, since spreading bullshit is much cheaper than proving it wrong. The right can flood the zone with a firehose of lies, and even if they literally admit these lies, their voters go along.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by otterley on Friday August 21, 2026 @12:05AM (#49383659)
I...didn’t say you did say that? No need to be defensive.

But a reasonable interpretation of “the primary reason for people voting like this is the ungodly sums of money spent on elections” is that such a direct causal link exists.

If you meant something else, happy to receive a clarification.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Timon3 on Friday August 21, 2026 @09:17AM (#49387642)
Then I must admit I'm unsure how to interpret your objections, since I understand you to be arguing against the position "The group spending the most money must always win elections". If you're not assuming that I'm taking this position, why bring it up?

> If you meant something else, happy to receive a clarification.

As a thought experiment, assume we're playing gods and decide to simulate a bunch of universes almost exactly like ours, so we can reliably study how civilizations develop (free from the influence of random chance). Then we evaluate how many of these civilizations had periods of strong corruption, loss in quality of life, and all the other negatives we're experiencing this decade.

My argument is: you'd find a correlation between these periods, and the relative amounts of wealth invested into politics. Note this doesn't imply that bigger sums of money must lead to victory - especially if the thesis mentioned in my first reply is correct, which I very much assume it is.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by otterley on Friday August 21, 2026 @09:42AM (#49387942)
I'm not sure. On the other hand, there're plenty of corruption and loss of quality of life where there's not much money in electioneering, or not even a democracy. Take Russia, for example, or any of a number of African or Central American countries.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Timon3 on Friday August 21, 2026 @04:59PM (#49393716)
Again, I'm not proposing a necessary condition. But leaving aside that Russia isn't a democracy (meaning it's not relevant when discussing elections): are you referencing a study that, among the countries you mentioned, compares the relative amounts of money spent & the development of said issues? If so, links would be greatly appreciated.

If not, I once again fail to see your point - sure, the issues I mentioned occur a lot in poorer countries, I never claimed otherwise! So I still can't see how this relates to my hypothesis.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by JKCalhoun on Thursday August 20, 2026 @09:00AM (#49374060)
I sympathize with your point, we should still blame the voters, but the 1% wouldn't be throwing billions of dollars into politics if they were seeing zero return on their money.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Thursday August 20, 2026 @02:25PM (#49378302)
// America simply is no longer a democracy or representative democracy. //

Well, that's the kicker. We actually did vote him in. TWICE. It would be great if we could blame some cabal or coup or something. It would get us off the hook.

But the sad fact is that Trump--after sending cop-killing goons to the capital to try to steel the last election--we voted him in by a margin of 53%.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by snowwrestler on Thursday August 20, 2026 @04:40PM (#49379979)
Citizen's United was decided in 2010. Hillary Clinton out-spent Trump by about $500 million in 2016 and lost.

The reality is that spending can keep a candidate from losing an election for dumb reasons (e.g. lack of name recognition), but it can't win an election by itself. There are plenty of examples of the bigger spender losing, both before and after Citizen's United.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by adamredwoods on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:42PM (#49366954)
I don't understand how US Republicans talk about fiscal conservation, yet allow rampant profligacy. They must have a different agenda than the one they speak of.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by nielsbot on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:05PM (#49367205)
What they always really mean is tax cuts for those who need it least
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by jleyank on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:43PM (#49366976)
"Talk" and "Walk" aren't the same word although they rhyme. And they only refer to Democrats, who are the only ones with agency in government (Murc's Law).
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by pstuart on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:56PM (#49367124)
When they engage in financial conservation it's cover for destroying programs they don't like. The fact that they are cheering on yet another incredibly stupid, expensive, and pointless war proves that they are not "fiscal conservatives."
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by toomuchtodo on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:31PM (#49366832)
New representation will get voted in because of the current macro, will have to raise taxes to pay down the debt to prevent an eventual debt spiral, the electorate will be angry they don't have cake (unless the taxes are applied disproportionally to the top income and wealth percentiles), and we'll be right back to irresponsible policy. I don't have much hope for the US, but at least the bond market are the adults in the room currently. Congrats to those who strip mined the country successfully.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rvz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:44PM (#49366979)
> New representation will get voted in because of the current macro, will have to raise taxes to pay down the debt to prevent an eventual debt spiral

That debt is never getting paid, I'm afraid.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:47PM (#49367624)
I'm old enough to remember when people said that the debt Ronald Reagan racked up would never be repaid. Which means I also am old enough to remember Clinton turning record deficits into record surpluses.

I remember when the U.S. Treasury stopped issuing 30 year bonds---no deficit, no need to borrow!! Boy did that scare the bejezuz out of the financial industry though. I read an op-ed in the Wall Street journal about how are we ever going to offer 30 year mortgages if the banks can't buy 30 year treasury bonds?

Then the supreme court handed the 2000 election to George Bush, and the financial industry was happy again, because record surpluses turned into record deficits again. The banks still lent money to homebuyers--in fact, so many people took out mortgages that.....

The answer is so simple, everybody know it: spend less than you earn, borrow only for things which will pay you back. We can start doing that this afternoon, if we wanted to.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by toomuchtodo on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:44PM (#49366984)
US throws off ~$5T in profits per year to shareholders. It can be paid back, you just have to go after it. It's a choice not to. Forward curves go up because we choose to not reduce the debt? All consumer borrowing costs go up accordingly (consumer debt and mortgages are priced off of US treasuries)? A crisis occurs and there isn't any borrowing capacity left to get to the other side? Sucks to suck, try to suck less in the future. Natural consequences are an important component of the learning process.

Can't mortgage the economic future of the US forever (which is what treasuries are, borrowing against future US taxpayer revenue), as the bond market is actively demonstrating. Something will give, even if that is "monetizing the debt" and a soft default, with US purchasing power rapidly declining (you thought everyone didn’t like inflation before? Hooboy just wait). Pick your crisis adventure, the message is this fiscal policy is unsustainable.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by exabrial on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:38PM (#49366914)
This started long before Trump. Ironically things quite stable under Clinton. 2nd term Bush not so great, 2nd term Obama not great, Trump post covid not great, Biden was terrible, Trump 2.0 terrible.

The only real solution is to enforce the actual debt ceiling, the begin lowering it a few hundred billion each year, destroying things we don't need. Require all new spending be funded by the 2.5x destruction of existing spending and departments.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by pstuart on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:08PM (#49367226)
I loathed the actions of DOGE but believe that "government efficiency" (yeah, lily oxymoronic) should be baked into everything the government does, most importantly, even the programs that one supports.

That has been one of many failures of the Dems to both pursue and socialize.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by _djo_ on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:41PM (#49367566)
The Democrats have, in the past forty years, been the only party to have consistently been able to reduce the deficit, even creating a surplus by the end of Clinton's presidency.

They've also been the only party to have successfully reduced the cost of government and made it more efficient in the process. Clinton's bipartisan National Partnership for Reinventing Government was what DOGE claimed to be, as it sharply cut the number of federal government staff without affecting delivery. [0][1]

Obama and Biden were less effective than Clinton, but still drove the deficit down toward the end of their terms, and Obama in particular tried to implement a series of reforms to improve efficiency such as creating 18F which saved a bunch on government software contracts in the years it was active. The Republicans have not seriously done anything similar, and DOGE doesn't count because from the start it was clear it wasn't a serious attempt to reduce actual waste but an ideologically-motivated exercise run by unskilled and inexperienced people.

This isn't to say Democratic administrations have been all good or that the Democratic Party hasn't also loved its pork, but overall at least when in control of the presidency the party has tended to stabilise America's finances, improve tax revenue collection, make government more efficient, and reduce deficit spending far more than the Republicans have.

The Democrats retain at least some elements of their technocratic side, but the Republicans have gone all-in on populism and thrown theirs out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Partnership_for_Reinv...

[1] https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/ls1088

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:23PM (#49367387)
The federal government is actually quite efficient in what it does. For example, the overhead for Social Security is between 0.5% and 1%. I.E, less than the mutual funds in my 401k charge per yeah for "administrative fees."

When people talk about government waste, what they really are talking about is things the government does which they don't approve of. E.g. ICE--is that wasteful spending? Depends upon whether you like ICE or not. Aide to Israel? Same stuff.

That's why DOGE got nowhere. There is no mythical mammoth waste, fraud, and abuse in the government.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by _djo_ on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:45PM (#49367605)
Correct. It's also often forgotten how much the National Partnership for Reinventing Government (NPR) had done to make government more streamlined and efficient between 1993 and 1998. That took care of pretty much all the low-hanging fruit that those behind DOGE falsely believed was still there.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by qzx_pierri on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:34PM (#49367493)
>The federal government is actually quite efficient in what it does.

This has to be bait

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by fragmede on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:42PM (#49367577)
When things are monitored to such a degree that a startup I was at couldn't bring doughnuts to a meeting because NASA was gonna there and that could possibly be a bribe, I don't know about efficient, but there's a reason why DOGE couldn't really find any waste.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by eudamoniac on Thursday August 20, 2026 @02:12PM (#49378132)
Mate, things being monitored to that degree is the waste.

I've worked in government. Working in government will immediately disabuse any expectations of efficiency.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by preg_match on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @08:18PM (#49368913)
This isn't a refutation or even an argument. If something was obviously incorrect, you would think it would be trivial to prove wrong. But, evidently not.

The idea that the government is inherently inefficient is an idea that GOP just made up ~50 years ago to justify tax cuts for the rich. Tax cuts which, by the way, got us into this debt mess. This all started with Reagan, who royally fucked our government fiscally.

The only people who have been able to control the deficit are, surprise surprise, democratic administrations. Just look at the numbers, ignore the propaganda. This stuff is cut-and-dry.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by armitron on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:39PM (#49370132)
The Department of Defense has never received a clean opinion on a full financial audit. Since starting comprehensive yearly reviews in 2018, the Pentagon has failed eight consecutive enterprise-wide audits due to scale, missing records, and untrackable assets.

Federal Government Made $236 billion “Improper Payments” Last Fiscal Year: https://www.gao.gov/blog/federal-government-made-236-billion...

The only propaganda I see here is coming from those who are so out of touch of reality that they firmly believe there's a chunk of the uniparty that doesn't increase the deficit.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by abenga on Thursday August 20, 2026 @03:48AM (#49371633)
A team of outsiders got carte blanche to find and kill waste in your government. How much did they find?
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by qzx_pierri on Thursday August 20, 2026 @07:35AM (#49373216)
Quite a bit, actually

https://doge.gov/savings

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by watwut on Thursday August 20, 2026 @03:03AM (#49371367)
DOGE achieved their goal - take the info and speed up destruction of the state, of public service.

Oh, and stop or limit research into anything not centered at white men.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by 0xy on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:19PM (#49367352)
Democrats support the exact same pork barreling.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by cosmicgadget on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:31PM (#49370081)
Why is it ironic that Clinton balanced the budget?

Second term Bush not so great? Can you think of anything in his first term that maybe impacted the deficit for, say, two decades?

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by JKCalhoun on Thursday August 20, 2026 @09:04AM (#49374094)
I'll guess: imaginary WMD?
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by conartist6 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:59PM (#49367146)
The challenge now is that we have to have a vision for what we want to build.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by krapp on Thursday August 20, 2026 @09:43AM (#49374499)
Half the country does have such a vision, and they're getting exactly what they want.

The question is why the other half can't seem to do shit about it.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by conartist6 on Thursday August 20, 2026 @04:12PM (#49379598)
The system as it works is made to cause partisan balance to stay close to the competitive 50/50

That may make it seem like nothing every changes, and much wind is spent on it. Real change is often so deep and slow that it just isn't even news. That's because politicians don't usually lead, they follow

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by 0xy on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:58PM (#49367142)
The East Wing argument is such a weird hill to die on. Even Obama era staffers admitted it was embarrassing to welcome foreign dignitaries to a muddy patch of grass rather than a fit for purpose room.

It's also majority private sector funded, and numerous admins have made substantial changes to the White House.

Bush 2 and Obama made substantial renovations to the White House, as did Clinton.

Trump has a massive and growing pile of rightful criticism and you're focusing on a project which costs 1/1,000th the cost of the Iran War and Obama staffers admit is necessary? Priorities?

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Jtsummers on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:05PM (#49367204)
The major issue with the East Wing was how it was done, not that it was done ("it": renovations in general, possibly even tear down and full rebuild). Also the costs have been ballooning and the "no taxpayer funding" claim turned out to be a lie.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Rapzid on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:21PM (#49368451)
> It's also majority private sector funded

See if you can spot the ethical problems and corruption in that. It's there, I promise you. Look hard.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by tekla on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:19PM (#49367349)
> It's also majority private sector funded

This is mostly a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_State_Ballroom#Fun...

Vast majority is to be paid for by taxpayers.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by nielsbot on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:16PM (#49367317)
Die on? It's absolutely a symbol of the incompetent, corrupt and destructive admin--it's not just the dollars.

We should be very suspicions of the potential corruption caused by companies and individuals giving money to Trump's pet project.

Finally, we can criticize multiple things at the same time.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:12PM (#49367263)
How embarrassing is it to welcome foreign dignitaries to a building which has been partially torn down? I man, if he actually had replaced it with a ballroom, that would be different.

But that's not what we get from Trump. He can't even maintain a reflecting pool--we're not going to get a ballroom.

No, he's going to leave the White house much worse than he found it. Which is his style.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by 0xy on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:18PM (#49367338)
There's a long history of the reflecting pool having severe algae issues dating back to the early 2000s. Obama spent $30m on repairs that ultimately failed. Is your argument that the pool continuing to fail as it has done under successive governments is exclusively the fault of the admin that has far larger and far more serious points to criticism them on?
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by OneDeuxTriSeiGo on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @05:35PM (#49367506)
The argument is that massive fuckups are solely the responsibility of the party that initiated them when said party goes out of their way to avoid the established mechanisms for proposing, approving, and implementing those plans.

If there's a problem with a plan then there's a problem with the plan. If there's a problem with the implementation then there's a problem with the implementation.

But when you bypass that entire process and go roll out a bunch of changes and efforts that you claim will be flawless and dole out no-bid contracts that balloon past their estimates despite ending in complete or near complete failures then that's entirely on the leadership that kicked it off.

There is no transparency here and it's not even possible to point to specific things that went wrong because it's effectively all undocumented and intentionally done outside of the existing systems and rules. And it happens again and again with different projects.

Each time it's the leadership's fault because they chose to step outside the normal processes and accountability leaving us with no way to learn from mistakes made during the exercise beyond "the processes exist for a reason, stop ignoring them".

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by Rapzid on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @07:26PM (#49368519)
Don't forget the part where you then direct the DOJ to arrest and prosecute citizens inspecting the botched repair to THEIR POOL(as in the people's pool) so everyone in the admin can CYA and save face.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by wookmaster on Thursday August 20, 2026 @09:18AM (#49374219)
I don’t remember Obama prosecuting citizens over it
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by khriss on Thursday August 20, 2026 @04:37PM (#49379937)
> It's also majority private sector funded,

Really? Wasn't it supposed to be 100% funded by Trump's cronies, who of course were doing so completely out of the goodness of their hearts. Why did that shift to 'majority' private funding? Also, if the funding is so on the up and up, why has Trump refused to release a full audit?

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rvz on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:42PM (#49366953)
This debt problem was long before Trump and this is why the US dollar is being printed straight to $0, until it loses its reserve currency status.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by jambalaya8 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @04:55PM (#49367117)
It really already did lose its reserve status, in a manner of speaking. There isn't ever going to be a gold standard again (even if there is, would the actual gold have the sort of real life uses it had when the gold standard was around? Not like people fill teeth with it anymore unless you are some sort of thug).
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by unrented7977 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @06:09PM (#49367840)
Gold is a fantastically useful element. It's vastly more useful today as our knowledge and application of chemistry has improved.

It's probably more in demand as a commodity today than it ever has been.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by jambalaya8 on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @08:36PM (#49369037)
I hear platinum is the way to go. Or iron.
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by rhelz on Thursday August 20, 2026 @10:49AM (#49375424)
Gold is a useful element, for sure, but there's no where's near enough of it to serve as a reserve currency. E.G. the U.S. reserves are worth about $1.2 trillion (changes each day, of course). Compare that to a national economy which has a GDP of over $30 trillion.

All these old gold bugs just can't wrap their heads around what exponential growth really looks like. But we can grow our productive capacity far, far faster than we can grow the supply of gold.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by blooalien on Wednesday August 19, 2026 @11:45PM (#49370161)
> I've never felt so alienated from the leaders of my industry, from my politicians, and from my fellow citizens. Ya'll should have known better. It is the information age, all ignorance is willful ignorance.

^^^ 1000% this right here. Right there with ya (sadly)... Not at all the world we were promised as children. "Star Trek" vs "Mad Max"/"Terminator"? Humanity chose the latter. We ain't gonna survive long enough to escape this planet.

Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by JKCalhoun on Thursday August 20, 2026 @08:53AM (#49373969)
Star Trek must have looked a little too DEI, and we all thought we were somehow going to be Immortan Joe…
Re:U.S. Debt Hits $40T as America's Borrowing Binge Continues by JKCalhoun on Thursday August 20, 2026 @08:51AM (#49373945)
"I've never felt so alienated from the leaders of my industry, from my politicians, and from my fellow citizens."

I'm with you, brother/sister.