> These same people wouldn't bat an eye at paying $14 for a food truck grilled cheese and leave a tip.

This seems weirdly condescending, especially since I think these two things are very related.

There are two types of $14 food truck grilled cheese in my experience:

The first type is usually found at farmer’s markets or free city events where the cheese will be local and artisan, and the bread will be local and artisan, and it’ll be pretty freaking good, and remind you that you can make incredible food with simple ingredients.

The second type is where there’s a captive audience, like a music festival or a brewery patio. This is no free market: you are hungry, and you’re about to be exploited.

I find American society increasingly reflected in the second type of $14 grilled cheese. Movie theaters, sporting events, music events, video games, tipping culture, hidden fees, etc. etc. Exploitative business practices to extract profit at the expense of the customer. It’s like walking around being shown the middle finger at all times. And people complain about the breakdown of the social contract…

I was going to say the same thing

the artisan grilled cheese is better than a hotdog that’s been overheated for six hours with a stale bun, and stale popcorn with fake flavoring

> the cheese will be local and artisan, and the bread will be local and artisan, and it’ll be pretty freaking good, and remind you that you can make incredible food with simple ingredients.

Simple ingredients should be cheap. It’s fucking cheese and bread, stop trying to normalize $15 for it. The raw ingredients are milk and wheat, both of which are incredible cheap.

You’re disregarding training, labor, and the intangibles of culture and tradition. Those things should be cheaper, but in America we’ve basically all but destroyed bakery artisanship at the altar of capitalist efficiency, so its rarity has now made its products more expensive. Cheese is in a slightly better position, but only barely, and very regionally-dependent (Wisconsin and Oregon, for example).

So yeah, I don’t disagree, it should be about half the price if we had better artisan programs in the US. But I don’t think wonder bread and Kraft singles should set the bar for grilled cheese pricing.

The difference between wonder bread and home bread isn’t rocket science. They use refined enriched wheat with a bunch of additives for shelf life whereas homemade bread is just wheat, water, yeast and salt. The raw materials for homemade bread are vastly cheaper. They make tons of factory processed bread that are dirt cheap and are indistinguishable from some artisanal baker making it.

Cheese has more nuance to it and I agree the difference between Kraft singles and an aged cheese are vastly different especially in time and labor. For instance Gruyère ages for a minimum of 5 months. All of that being said, your artisanal food truck isn’t making the Gruyère and only about $1.50 worth of cheese goes into it (compared to $0.35 if you used kraft singles).

You’re forgetting the cost of the food truck itself including maintenance and depreciation, plus propane to run the burners and labor to prepare the food, marketing, etc. I’d be surprised if a food truck has a net profit over 10%, after subtracting expenses.

The reasoning doesn't particularly matter to me, honestly. Whether or not it they need to charge a second mortgage to cover the cost of the theater isn't really my problem; these are for-profit companies, I don't need to do them any favor.

Popcorn cost basically nothing to make at home, especially if you buy the raw kernels and pop them yourself, and I can rent a 4k version of a movie for like three dollars on Amazon. My 85" 8k TV cost me $1200 (refurbished, but still). For the cost of going to the theater with my wife 15 times, I can buy that TV to watch movies but also use that same TV for many other things.

Even cheap shitty TVs are pretty ok nowadays, certainly better than the stuff when I was a kid, and after I have to question the point of going to an expensive physical theater where there's a risk of some teenagers talking over the movie and I can't pause if I need to use the bathroom. The theaters might not like it, but regardless of whether its fair, they are competing with TVs now.

Everyone I know with an Espresso machine still goes to coffee shops. Beer is cheaper from a super market but everyone I know prefers pubs. For some reason this does not hold with cinemas. I way prefer the escapism of the cinema to sitting in my house surrounded by my usual ambient domestic Todo list. Sure I have a very good oled, amazing surround sound, but I'd take the cinema every time. But I can't due to kids.

However, I'm the outlier, none of my friends prefer the cinema. No idea why.

I would generally agree with you except for three points: 1) the price of going to the cinema has surged so much that you have to budget for it in a way you didn't before. 2) I can pause a movie at any time and go to the bathroom or get a new drink. The lack of intermission during longer movies at the theater is rough. 3) The behavior of moviegoers continues to decline. In particular, people with untreated ADHD constantly checking their phones is really distracting. A phone screen really pops in a dark movie theater. And when I watch these people check their phones, they aren't doing anything other than habitually dicking around.

I can go to the movie and there is a decent chance people will talk through the movie or will be on their phones, etc. Or I could watch at home and be guaranteed a great experience.

Movie theaters have to upgrade the experience. They need to police patrons like they used to. They need to sell better food and drinks. And they need to get the pricing model under control.

>Movie theaters have to upgrade the experience

Or cheapen it. We've got two draft house style theaters that are social experiences that show older reels, things from the public domain, and local and independent film. Door policies vary, but until the set feature time, it's just like a pub with an extra big screen in the back.

It's also cheaper to operate without box office staff and doesn't degrade the experience. People could be always be better, but I'd say big theater chains and Hollywood are really what are out of touch.

>3) The behavior of moviegoers continues to decline.

Isn't this a problem all across American society now?

In cinemas in the UK that I've been to, the ushers actively tells people to turn off their screens, there's also announcements at the start saying this.

> Beer is cheaper from a super market but everyone I know prefers pubs.

It's a pretty frequent complaint that drinks at pubs, bars, and restaurants have become extortionately expensive, to the point that a lot of younger people are drinking less for that reason.

I avoid "bars" where the bar tenders only pour beers. I much prefer the higher end places where every drink is hand made in front of you where the quality of the bartender is everything. I recognize the skill and accept that the price of the cocktail will be set accordingly. There are places that make cocktails with the same ice they use for soft drinks from premade cocktails charging the same price. I do not go back to those ever again after I slog down the one drink. Luckily, I'm a freak where I didn't actually start drinking until I was in my 30s so I didn't have to suffer being broke at a bar.

Even outside of pubs and restaurants. Six packs and cases in the grocery store are all hugely inflated. Since I like beer, I got an old freezer and built a kegerator out of it and now buy my beer by the keg. (For now) keg prices are barely reasonable. $10 for a glass of beer at a restaurant?? Fuck right off with that.

The best part about beer being $10 is that most of the other drinks, including things that taste a shitload better, are also $10.

If you are a dumbass kid like I was, that same $10 also gets you a Long Island Iced Tea, which is delicious and only gives you a little liver disease.

But instead of buying anything at all that could get you mistaken for being slightly unmanly, idiots will just complain and spend $10 on Bud Light.

Americans are extremely bad at value shopping or shopping around. They would rather go into debt than try something new.

I don't get it.

I don't drink alcohol or coffee, so I can't really relate to the others.

I will admit to having good experiences going to the theater with friends and/or family, but I don't really enjoy watching a movie with strangers. Nowadays if I want to watch a movie with friends, I will simply invite them over and we'll watch it together.

More power to you if you like going to a theater, I'm not trying to convince you to stop, just that I don't feel the value-add is worth it to me anymore. Decent TVs have gotten so cheap that I just prefer to watch movies at home.

My ideal movie experience is to go during the day towards the end of a run when there's a fair chance the theatre will either be empty or almost empty.

But I haven't even done that for a while.

If it's going to be crowded - no thanks.

Tangentially, because my gf works in opera I've been to some productions, and real theatre - a real stage, with real people, and real stage effects - can have a presence and magic that cinema can't touch.

So I'd much rather spend money on that now. It's physically less comfortable because of the seats, but as an experience it's so much more hands-on, hand-made, and satisfying, and creatively it leaves so much more space for atmosphere and implication.

I live in NYC and go to some form of Broadway production about once a year, primarily because my mom really likes it and so it's something to do when she comes to visit

I don't dislike it, but it's also pretty expensive and it's not something I'm terribly passionate about. I agree that it's a little different though; each production is a little unique, and seeing it in person is a bit more of a visceral experience.

I have an espresso machine and never go to coffee shops for what it's worth

I have a big balcony facing direct sunlight to the south which has saved me a lot of money.

I've had the same thoughts, also I sure don't miss the theater experience of having your shoes sticky with soda. God forbid you drop something on the floor like your phone, and have to feel around for it in the dark.

The last time I went to a theater, I went to the first showing of the movie for the day. We were the only people in the theater. 30 minutes into the movie, the projection suddenly shut off and all the lights turned on. After sitting there for about 10 minutes, we went out to talk to a staff member about it, and they told us that the computer said there was no one in the theater so they should shut it off. Long story short, they did not end up turning it back on, and referred us to the customer support hotline to try and get our money back. And this might be a little ageist, but there's something infuriating about a condescending teenager acting like this is somehow our fault. Yeah, no thank you.

Wow, that’s really a never again experience. Regardless of whether you got your money back or not, your anecdote makes clear that the movie theater business is on autopilot with extraction set to high. Last time for me the pre movie high volume advertising shower totally put me off from ever set foot in a movie theater again. The volume was so cranked up that it was distorting the sound so badly it was all unintelligible. There was nobody in charge to turn that down and it went on like that for 10 minutes. That was to me a never again experience.

I remember when I was watching Kick-Ass in the theater, there were some teenagers trying to be funny the entire time.

I initially very politely asked them if they could stop talking because we're trying to watch the movie, but they didn't take that very seriously.

After another ten minutes of their commentary I yell very loudly "SHUT THE FUCK UP!". Extremely loud, I suspect everyone in the theater heard me pretty clearly. I'm a pretty big guy and I have a very loud and deep voice, and of course the theater is dark, so they might have assumed I was more threatening than I actually am. The teenagers shut up for the rest of the movie.

The thing is, though, it kind of ruined the rest of the movie for me. The entire time I'm sitting there, kind of worked up and annoyed that I had to yell at some kids and ruin their Friday night.

I've certainly had good times in theaters too, I like movies, but I've grown a bit tired of it. Now generally the only time I go to the theater is the live showings of The Room.

I am with you on everything but the TV speakers. They are awful because TVs are so thin. They are running into pure physics. Get a nice soundbar, and it's a huge upgrade. Get one with separate rear speakers and a sub, and it's pretty great.

But the experience is way better than when we were kids. Watching Jurassic Park on a 19-inch CRT with mono audio was nothing like going to the theater. The delta between home and cinema was massive. Now I have a 77-inch OLED with 4K HDR and an Atmos sound setup. I'd take my home setup over a generic cinema screen. Only the premium large format is a noticeable upgrade. It's hard to justify shelling out a ton of money for the movie and snacks for similar audio/visual quality to home, and the risk that the person next to me is checking their phone the entire time (happened a year ago, and it's super distracting in a dark theater).

I buy popcorn kernels in bulk at my local grocery store, and we go through a lot of popcorn. It might cost $10 a year in kernels to regularly eat popcorn at home when you pop it yourself.

Yeah, I have decent speakers too. Should have clarified, the speakers on the TV are generally dogshit. Still, a decent soundbar can be had for less than $200 [1], and a very good sound system can be had for less than $500, especially if you're ok with something used.

After I made the mistake of reading the nutrition label on the back of Takis and potato chips, I bought a Stir Crazy popcorn maker [2] started making popcorn at home very regularly. Popcorn isn't exactly "good" for you, but it's not nearly as bad for you as basically chips. I buy the kernels in bulk on Amazon, and I have no idea how much I spend on popcorn but I don't think it could be more than $20 a year, even with three people living in my house.

If you want to real movie theater taste, there is also Flavacol [3]. This is what a lot of theaters will actually use to get the distinctive "movie theater popcorn" taste.

[1] https://en.creative.com/p/speakers/creative-stage Yes! Creative is still around and this sound bar actually sounds great if you plug in the subwoofer.

[2] https://www.amazon.com/82505-Electric-Popcorn-Stirring-Conve...

[3] https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Medal-Prod-Flavacol-Seasoning/dp...

I like to go to the theater, but I've also got several grand in AV at home, largely because of what I find dissatisfying about the modern movie experience.

My grandfather told me until the 1960s, tickets were for all-day entry. Show up whenever for whatever was playing, which was generally run on loop. You could step out for a smoke, get a drink, eat at a local diner, and then head back in and possibly catch where you left off, or maybe pay a dime fee for re-entry. At some point, they started closing the doors after the feature started, and from there we got the modern business model.

At home, I can still do all of those things, and more.

Correct, you can't give customers a horrible experience at the theater and expect the theater to do well.

Years ago I was in one of those old kitschy theatres. The seat was wet.

I prayed it wasn't urine.

When my wife and I first started dating, we went to one of those cheap second-run theaters.

I liked that theater because it was super cheap (like seriously $1.50 for a ticket because it showed out of date movies). One time when she and I were watching The Purge, I hear this kind of squishy noise from right behind me.

I turn around, and a guy is getting a handjob. I motion to my wife that we need to move a few seats over.

You know, The Purge isn't the worst movie ever but I gotta admit that it's not a movie that ever really turned me on either. To each their own, I suppose.

From that point forward we always called that the Handjob Theater.

>I turn around, and a guy is getting a handjob. I motion to my wife that we need to move a few seats over.

To get a better view, right?

We were mostly afraid of substances landing anywhere near us.

You don’t happen to live in exurban Denver do you?

Nope, this was in Dallas. Well, Garland actually.

I don't live there anymore and haven't for about eleven years.

I know exactly the theater you are talking about. My family and I have been there tons of time growing up.

I've never had an experience like you described, but I totally believe it.

Yeah, no shade at all towards the theater, not their fault that one of their customers got really turned on watching The Purge.

If I lived in Dallas still I'd probably still go there all the time.

Why can’t I have it both ways?

If all of those things are true, then the conclusion is that theaters can’t operate in a way that wins my business. That would be unfortunate, but it’s not contradictory. It also seems to be that pretty much true, as I see a movie in a theater maybe once a year.

Extending this logic, Netflix should be able to lower prices to $1.99 if they stopped paying staff $800k/year...

After all, they move 1s and 0s at the end of the day. No screens or customer-facing capital equipment to maintain outside of DCs.

That is not the logic used by wat10000.

I believe they wrote that it is consistent to find sufficient utility from a $14 grilled cheese sandwich and also find insufficient utility from a whatever price movie theater experience.

It isn’t written out, but when people complain about the price of anything, they are complaining the price to utility ratio. Not exactly profound stuff, but that is basically what it is, most people don’t get a sufficiently better experience in theaters in today’s world.

What?

The extension of my logic to Netflix would be, if I think their prices are too high and that causes me not to subscribe, and their prices are so high because they need to pay very high salaries, then there’s just no way that Netflix can exist in a form that I would subscribe to.

Actually, yes, I do think that netflix could do their job much cheaper. I use putflix, which uses put.io for $0.99 per month. Better quality streaming than netflix, no forced ads, and they can make it work for $1. Maybe it's the model where my monthly subscription pays for their entire catalog that's broken. Maybe it should just be a la carte licensing.

Either way, until the industry lets me pay directly to the org that literally made the movie, I'll just pirate.

I do want to pay the artists that make the films. I think the most viable way to do this is via cryptocurrency associated with social media accounts, and then validate ownership by having owners post a magic validation link. This way I can send artists money and it's on them to go get it if they want it.

This is not a satire?

putflix is criminal theft. They pay nothing to people who make movies. You can drive the cost to zero by downloading torrents directly from pirate bay.

If you did want to pay the artists then you would pay for netflix of rent/buy from a number of places (amazon video, youtube, apple).

Your cryptocurrency fantasy is just a way to rationalize stealing.

> rent/buy from a number of places (amazon video, youtube, apple).

It's just "rent", there's no buy option from any of these people, no matter what their site says. If they can revoke your ownership at any time, for any reason, then you don't own it. And if you don't own it, then you're not buying it.

I get the motivation to not pay these crooks, and instead pay the actual people that made the movie direct.

> the conclusion is that theaters can’t operate in a way that wins my business

They can, if studios gave them a better deal: "Most if not all the ticket price goes directly into the studio's pockets."

That is not a fact of nature, but the studio's whim. If they want to drive theaters out of business and send all their customers to the pirate bay, they are more than welcome to.

And you'd lose that wager.

I complain about movie costs while I watch movies at home, drive a VW that was under $40k new, live in a state with a minimum wage over $17 an hour, and refuse to pay $14 plus tip to a food truck that doesn't provide seating when I can pay $12 and no tip at a fast food restaurant that does provide dine-in eating.

Some of us live our principles, we're not all just whinging hypocrites.

Side note - My 2019 Tesla Model 3 is worth 8000$. Canadian.

A rich person does not drive a Tesla.

Prices have come down but that's not a real price unless there's something seriously wrong with your car. i'm seeing ~15 at the lowest

There's way more middlemen then when people went to the movies in the 1950s, it's not that complicated. Back then, the theater got the film roll in a USPS delivery, and the people that manned the popcorn were high schoolers. Over the years we have injected lots of lawyers at every level of this and, alas, everything about "watching a movie" is more expensive.

Well, the system either needs to change, or it will die. As simple as that. Probably the latter.