My friend is one of those 'overly involved' parents with his daughter: tennis lessons and competitions, sailing lessons and competitions, skiing lessons and competitions. He sacrificed a huge amount of time to give his daughter every opportunity.

I asked him one time "do you think she might end up hating you for making her do all these activities?"

He thought it would be ok. He said "it will open doors for her. She's now so good at tennis that wherever she goes she'll be in demand to join the ladies team."

Looks like he was right: she got into a good university with a sailing scholarship, she is athletic, has a good relationship with her parents and is an all round happy and pleasant person.

Isn’t that a bit like raising your kid with the intent of playing in the NBA though? I understand that it worked well for your friend and I am not knocking athletics, my own daughter is doing gymnastics, but that seems like either a post-hoc justification on the part of your friend or a strategy with a low rate of success such that it seems a bit odd to go for as a parent.

Personally, I’ve seen far more of my helicopter-parented high-performance peers burn out and die in the last 15 years (I am in my mid thirties). I grew up in the Gifted and Talented cohort but without that Tiger Mom kind of parenting. I did fine, got a full ride to a state school, make good money and work a relaxed remote job.

Most of my cohort went on to MIT, Stanford, Carnegie, the Ivy Leagues. Of the dozen or so I really think only one made it through that pipeline unscathed and successful. Several dropped out to become bums at their parent’s house, one was homeless and became a stripper. Two have sadly taken their own lives despite seemingly good FAANG careers.

These are all “good kids” from stable middle class or even richer families. It’s a bit strange to have watched.

That's sad. There are so many factors at play. I would say that with my friend and his daughter, one of the reasons it worked out well was because they spent so much time together: traveling to competitions, driving to the mountains for skiing every weekend. They enjoyed each other's company and bonded over these shared experiences, and things like introducing her to the Beatles and the Grateful Dead.

> They enjoyed each other's company and bonded over these shared experiences

My son competes on the national and international level in two different sports, so we do a lot of traveling. The bonding is very important, just as it is knowing when to get out of the way and let them shine.

In one sport, I drop him off and pick him up for practice (he gets distracted/flustered when someone is there watching him practice). In the other, I practice with him and am trying to stay better than him as long as I can.

There are a few other things I think are important...

If they don't want to do something, don't push them to. My son decided not to compete in a national ranking event in a couple of months because his competitions are on Thursday and Saturday and he would miss three days of school when factoring in travel.

Try to anticipate their eventual needs and make sure the right tools/equipment/etc. are available for them before they realize they needed it. Also, have backup equipment just in case something breaks or fails.

Make sure that they understand the 'why' behind all the things that both they have done, and what you have done, to enable them to get to that level.

Finally, from a young age, teach them to "always do your best, and always do better next time." The first national competition he went to, he literally finished dead last out of over 250. When we were in the airport heading home, I let him know that it's alright if he doesn't want to do more of them. He didn't back down in the slightest, and asked me when the next one was because he knew he could do better. Next month will be the second time he competes in the Junior Olympics for that sport.

> Two have sadly taken their own lives despite seemingly good FAANG careers

Sorry to hear that.

Unfortunately I think we have way over indexed on "success" being tied to money and seeking these careers at companies that drive people to exhaustion and let the competitive environment drive everyone harder and harder with a ratchet effect.

IMO it’s less about success but a lack of reliable safety nets. Absent a good supporting environment, what choice does an individual have than to maximise their own outcome.

Do countries with reliable safety nets have lower rates of taking one's own life? What does reliable mean for a safety net?

Not just safety nets, but the disappearance of the middle class at least in the US. It increasingly feels like people either make twice or more what they need to live, or half what they need to live.

I can absolutely see why parents see the way things are, try to extrapolate out another 20 or 30 years, and feel like they have to make sure their child is in the "well-to-do" group. It feels like the days are gone where you could be an average performer at an average job and live an okay life.

Fighting for the crows nest on the titanic

> Isn’t that a bit like raising your kid with the intent of playing in the NBA though?

Not quite. NBA is for a tiny minority a a great well paying career. Most parents who raise their kids to play in the NBA will fail in that goal. However if you instead make the goal get a great scholarship playing basketball which is then used to pay for the degree that becomes their career it can be a great plan.

However here it sounds like the sailing was done not to get a great career, but to get a great college scholarship. This is likely a great plan. I suspect that while there are more basketball scholarships than sailing scholarships, there is a lot less competition for the sailing ones. It wouldn't surprise me if the typical sailing scholarship was higher than the typical basketball one - if you want someone on your team you need to get them away from the other schools, while for basketball if someone isn't obvious NBA bound (and thus your star starter) if they go elsewhere you just pick the next kid on the list for the scholarship.

The above isn't just sports. In music Violin vs Bassoon gets the same issues. Acting also fits in somehow. And your kids may well be doing more than one of the above.

> I’ve seen far more of my helicopter-parented high-performance peers burn out

I've seen a lot of kids burn out from all backgrounds. The real problem I see with helicopter is because the kids never get to make mistakes they don't learn how to deal with them. The less controlled kids learn to be a little cautious and so when they rebel they are not going to go as far.

note that this example isn't doing these things professionally, but leveraged them to get into a good school, which nets a lot of valuable connections... it's not all or nothing, this person will be fine even if they don't become a pro tennis player

also I hear you on the suicides, but I grew up in a much poorer background and those are just overdoses in my situation.... there's easily a dozen kids in my graduating class that weren't pressured to do anything, had no idea what to do, and got addicted to drugs that killed them

there's no single right path

> Isn’t that a bit like raising your kid with the intent of playing in the NBA though?

No: getting to the NBA is very difficult, but you don't have to be that good. You 'just' have to be good enough to play at the college/university level with a scholarship. One doesn't necessarily have to 'go pro'.

I knew someone who got a scholarship to a business/finance program for cross-country running: he wasn't planning on being a pro runner. And doing these activities in high school is probably a good thing, from a social and health perspective, regardless of if it leads anywhere else.

What school is offering sailing scholarships?

HINT: NONE. If this is true, I'd really like to know what program that is.

Sailing isn't an NCAA sport, it's governed by its own association the ICSA. Sailing Scholarships are explicitly disallowed, in fact the bigger issue that's been happening in collegiate sailing is the opposite of a scholarship.

Eager and wealthy parents making huge donations to sailing programs, rowing programs, lawn dart programs, fencing programs, etc to get admission into top schools where their kid wouldn't be able to get in on their own merit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal

I was probably incorrect stating that it was a scholarship, my bad - I know there were some incentives, but whether it was a financial deal or not I don't know. The main point for her, the student, was that due to her sporting achievements she was given offers of places from several of the top universities so she could take her pick.

These extra curricular activities, were the secret game you had to play, to get into prestigious universities. At least, it was just a few years ago. Besides niche sports like lacrosse and rowing, there was the volunteer activities like serving at a soup kitchen. When Ivy League universities saw a resume like that, they knew which social class the student belonged to.

So much of your comment is wrong:

> These extra curricular activities, were the secret game you had to play, to get into prestigious universities. At least, it was just a few years ago.

Extracurriculars have been a part of elite school admissions for about a century.

It hasn’t really been a secret for most of that time.

Some people (somewhat correctly) say that this requirement was added to discriminate against Jews at that time, but it was also an education idea (“Progressive Education” by Dewey) that gained popularity around the same time.

Regardless of what the initial catalyst was, the universities seemed to like having folks who were “doers” as a significant part of their student body.

> Besides niche sports like lacrosse and rowing

These are not “niche sports” in certain parts of the country.

> there was the volunteer activities like serving at a soup kitchen.

I can tell you point blank that serving in a soup kitchen does not help you get into an elite school.

For any school that ranks such things, if you have a laundry list of volunteer activities like this, it would get you the next to lowest rating in extracurriculars — this is basically the same as not doing anything.

The key to getting an high rating for any volunteer activity would be to show leadership (which is something the elite schools says point blank that they want) and meaningful impact.

> When Ivy League universities saw a resume like that, they knew which social class the student belonged to.

I’ve got news for you. A wide range of classes of people do these things.

There might be a floor at the absolutely lowest end of the economic spectrum (just due to instability of housing and food), but I’ve seen a ton of great examples from folks who were not upper or upper middle class. Often times necessity can be the mother of invention!

I assure you that these stories stand out to admissions committees, with the biggest challenge often being simply to get some of these folks from modest means to apply.

Really. A wide range of classes of people do these things. I didn't know.

I think there are basically two kinds of micromanagement that need to be distinguished. The first one is encouraging your child to do something which you think has direct benefits, like learning to swim, which is good exercise and prevents drowning. The second is encouraging your kid to do something because you expect indirect social benefits: either some admissions officer will be impressed by an applicant who plays the oboe or the child will socialize with "the right crowd" or something like that. It's the second kind that can become pernicious because it creates an opportunity for the parent's own status anxieties and prejudices to be projected onto the child, like "lacrosse players are smarter than basketball players" so you want the kid to play lacrosse and not basketball even though they are basically comparable activities and this is dismissive of the needs and capabilities of children to learn to navigate social environments and pressures for themselves.

I would guess a parent who can enroll their kid in sailing for leisure could have paid for college anyhow

> When my spouse and I were dating, we made fun of those “overly involved parents” who tried to live vicariously through their kids and over-scheduled them.

> Since having kids, my spouse has (over a one year period) put our 5 year old in: T-ball, swimming, dance, theater, Sunday school, church, soccer, gymnastics, library group sessions, and to my absolute bewilderment and dismay—beauty pageants. On any given week, there are 5+ activities outside of school. My spouse stays up until 2 AM “helping” our daughter on her kindergarten school projects. Never mind all the activities our 2 year old is ramping up into.

> I don’t think this is healthy at all for children, and it’s really created a rift in our marriage. It’s been so bizarre to me to see this change in behavior from what we discussed prior to marriage compared to now. I worry the kids are going to burn out. I certainly didn’t grow up this way, and my personality as a kid would not have handled this well.

Parents appear increasingly terrified of childhood boredom, and thus meticulously cram their children's schedules with activities they feel are "crucial" for "development".

> Parents appear increasingly terrified of childhood boredom, and thus meticulously cram their children's schedules with activities they feel are "crucial" for "development".

It's insidious, but when my kids have nothing to do, and I see them on the phone. I don't like it and I feel the urge to plan an activity.

Uh, when my son asks me for the phone, I say no, and he asks me why, I just tell him it’s because I think being bored once in a while is healthy. As long as the rules around using it are consistent he can work with that (he’ll start running to get to the bus/train on time too, because he can only use a phone if he can sit down)

one of the reasons NPR is declining so badly, those of us who had to listen to it for hours on end in the back of a hot car and got a kind of bizarro world moss-coane stockholm syndrome aren't reproducing enough to inculcate another generation of mug toting radio listening, garrison keillor on sunday afternoon types

she s cheating

Have you considered talking to your wife instead of posting about it to a bunch of startup dudes?

How does it go with your wife when opinions are opposed and the matter is important (such as kids)?

Yeah, they definitely need time to look out a window and imagine.

But I think there is serious value in organized activities. From Junior high through high school I had a rule for mine to do one thing with school, and one thing outside of school. I would have supported more than those 2 things, but I'm so glad I didn't have to.

I'm thinking about enforcing the same rule in college, with a caveat that Gym and Girlfriend don't count, but it seems weird to make those kinds of mandates for someone that has a job.

Enforcing? He'd presumably be an adult, and the entire point of university is to get out from under your parents' wings. This sounds like a horrible idea.

Hmm, I’m fairly certain the ‘having children’ part is what triggers total collapse of the previous worldview. My spouse was adamant that we wouldn’t force our child to study excessively, but we’re at 7 years old and we have a 50cm stack of extra activities books that need to be worked through every morning and evening, in addition to the homework the school sets. It’s madness. The class teacher told me he’s not even involved with setting homework.

I certainly wasn’t expected to do any homework at 7. It wasn’t until middle school we were expected to do some amount of homework.

I always thought it was parents being competitive - especially for unobvious social status signals.

We notice competitive behaviours at our jobs - we expect to see it, and in many work situations competition is admissible.

It is harder to notice competition in our social lives because we deceive ourselves with rationalisations (that appear reasonable) and the games are less obvious.

Just a personal theory (I'm a late learner for even simple status signaling).

Could you put your child in a different school that didn't do that?

The US? My 2nd grader has one piece of homework per week, which takes about 10 minutes. If there was more I would tell the teacher to shove it. Instead I talk to my child. If he's interested we talk more about that, otherwise we switch to a topic that interests him. We've covered a lot of science, astronomy and math. Lately I've been telling him about primes, factorization and cryptography. I think our conversations lead to a love of learning and curiosity that is 100x more beneficial than a 50cm stack of homework...

What's striking is the helplessness that seeps through your message. As if you had zero control over what happens. You're just a bystander watching what happens to your children.

It's time for you to wake up, and start exercising your own authority.

you are not married, are you? that's not how this works. while they certainly need to talk, and not just once, but continuously, you don't have the authority to change your partners behavior. you need to discuss your feelings about this matter and come to a consensus about the activities and the goals for your child.

it won't be easy. if i were in this position, i can't imagine what i would do. i feel even stronger than GP about this, and i'd probably feel quite helpless trying to get my partner to understand how i feel about this. even just trying to get my voice heard. if you don't have a way to communicate openly in your marriage from the start, then talking about things openly can be very hard, seemingly impossible even. with one issue that my wife and me had, it first took me years to notice and understand the issue and start to speak up about it, then it took a few more years for my wife to recognize and acknowledge the issue for herself, and then she still struggled to do something about it. and very time i messed up somewhere in our relationship, it was a setback for her development too. and i can't even blame her. it's something she learned from her parents (which is how she eventually figured it out)

Don't forget that there are many indians lurking hackernews. With their particular views about women.

just because those views exist, doesn't mean those views are good: https://madrascourier.com/opinion/its-time-to-educate-indian...

It's funny to me how much your comment says about your own prejudices.

well i’ll also point out, as a married man, my partner doesn’t have the “authority” to unilaterally decide how our child is raised. Notice the word OUR. There is no “I” in the word our.

It’s a joint decision. If it’s not, then you’re not operating as a team. If you’re not operating as a team…then you have a marriage problem IMO. Simple as that.

The healthy marriage outcome would be talking about it and compromising in some fashion. “my way or the highway”…yikes.

Wrong. I can tell you from 15 years of married experience, that it's more complicated than that. Some of the patterns that are put in place are feedback loops, and when you change your own behavior, it fixes by itself. No need to talk, just do something different. In fact, talking sometimes makes things worse, because now this background thing becomes a first class issue.

One thing I have observed over and over again, is that when I lack assertiveness, because I am tired or something, then she feels like she needs to take over. And she does it very well. But it also creates a lot of anxiety in her.

What I am saying to OP, is that it's time to be more assertive. (1) There is more at play than the couple here; you can't just watch your children getting wrecked and do nothing. And (2), taking some ownership might actually fix the underlying issue.

ok, hat's a good observation. but it depends on the personalities involved and the specific actions. for me personally for example talking about an issue IS my way of being assertive.

of course there are situations where simply taking responsibility for something can help, but i don't see that in the situation described. if my wife is scheduling to many activities for the children, how can i take over when i simply want there to be less activities.

in other words if my wife does something that in my opinion simply should not be done, how can i stop her, other than sharing my feelings about it? how can i take ownership of the kids activities other than replacing them with other activities. or what do i do when i am at work while this happens? and working until 2am at night? how am i supposed to react other than saying, please don't do that?

We don't know enough about OP's situation, so we're both projecting quite a bit.

Of course communication is important, and the first thing I would do is talk about the shared expectations we had for the children's schedule. Maybe she didn't understand or remember. Or maybe something on her side changed. Take the calendar, mark explicit downtime hours, and talk about how those should be treated.

If that doesn't work, then it's tough. It might be some deeper patterns in the couple that needs to be broken down and restored. Or a psychological issue on her side. That's where the change of behavior can be useful. It's still communication, on the non-verbal level.

Anyways, I hope OP does something and doesn't just let things fly by.

Let us know how his divorce goes.

I obviously don’t know your specific situation but having brought up kids in a similar environment, I may be able to offer some possible explanation for what you are living through.

First, never underestimate the impact of your environment on your way of thinking. We all like to think we’re independent thinkers but really we’re much more influenced by the people we interact with than we could even realize. Once you have a kid, a lot of your social circle will consist of other parents so you will unconsciously absorb their values and motivations as well, including the desire to put your kids through all these hoops.

Second, many professional class parents believe that the key to future success lies in getting their kids into the right school. Hence, it’s never too early to start the kid on the path to great grades, background experiences, scholarships, etc. I’ve seen parents stress out about preschool enrollments because of the “advantages” these schools provided.

Lastly, this is very often the default path for parents. It’s just what you are supposed to do. Everything is set up in that direction. Defaults are powerful and govern our behavior much more than we all realize.

Final last point, the truth is no one knows what works when raising kids. For every story of a free-range kid becoming self-reliant, there’s a story of a latchkey kid that became a bum. Therefore, parents are generally risk-avoidant with their kids (there’s no do-overs) and tend to do “good” and “respectable” approaches in child rearing (like signing them up for sports, extra curriculars, etc)

These parents (who believe there is one path to future success) will be in for a rude awakening in the coming 10-20 years when all the traditional high-status career paths have dried up. Can they not see the writing on the wall? Not that I would ever be such a parent, but even if I was, there's no point in pressuring and forcing your kids into this lifestyle given the unpredictability of the future. My goal is just supporting and letting my kid do the things that interest them.

My parents made me do everything, and were so fucking mean about everything, I ended up missing out on the things I actually enjoyed b/c I didn't want yet another thing to get yelled at about.

Specific: guitar and music

To be fair: part of it was to be rid of me and to not have to watch me.

Beauty pagents? Go take a good long look in the mirror. That is pathetic. Is that what you want your kids to value? Passivity? Whatever the fuck beauty pagents encourage?

At least dance is a skill.

I was raised in such a house. This happened because my mother was an underachiever, and also because my father and grandparents were dead so she was unchallenged doing this.

But you are alive my friend. Don't let your child still have nightmares, regrets, and feelings of constantly not being enough in their 30s. If your child does'nt have a childhood she can never become an adult.

Some of it is likely “subconscious” long-term planning. University programs that result in high income post-graduation typically have prerequisites that include heavy extracurricular activity involvement.

The truth is if you don’t do it early, it will be harder to scale up your ECs when your kids are older, which will then lower their chances in getting into something that provides a higher degree of insurance against financial uncertainty.

Instagram Mom algorithms is what happened, probably.

Your wife is living vicariously through the kid, in more ways than one.

That’s good - but only to an extent, like you’ve both identified in the past.

They need to seek their own hobbies and interests to fulfill their dopamine needs, and give themselves purpose besides dictating who the kids end up being.

Coming from the other direction: you could reclaim some of that time for the kids (take over pageant time and now that’s when we go to the trampoline place with you).

Don’t let your partner run further away from you! Have a chat and reign this thing in.

There’s at least one stranger rooting for you.