I don't think it's necessarily about DeepSeek, but about the wider competitive picture. There are two tacit assumptions being made about LLMs - that having a SOTA model is a substantial competitive advantage, and that the demand for compute will continue to grow rapidly.

DeepSeek's phenomenal success in reducing training and inference cost points to the possibility of a very different future. If it's the case that SOTA or near-SOTA performance is commoditised and progress in efficiency outpaces progress in capability, then the roadmap looks radically different. If DeepSeek don't have a competitive advantage, then no-one has a competitive advantage. Having a DC full of H200s or a proprietary model with a trillion parameters might not count for anything, in which case we're looking at a very different set of winners and losers. Application specific fine-tuning and product-market fit might matter much more than brute force compute.

Isn't this the nature of past technology developments? few tech companies have a true technical "moat" - In California, the employees of any firm are free to raise funds and start a competitor the moment they are dissatisfied with the current leadership/compensation/location. During my career I have yet to observe a "secret sauce" that took more than a few weeks to learn and understand once on the inside.

The technical moats we know of in B2B have typically come from a combination of a large number of features efficiently tied into a platform/service that would be cost prohibitive to replicate (ElasticSearch, most successful Database firms), a network effect around that platform the makes it difficult not to be on the platform (CUDA, x86, windows).

>> 3. Most importantly, deepseek is open source, which means that the other models are free to copy whatever secret source it has, eg: Whatever architecture that purportedly use less compute can easily be copied.

> I don't think it's necessarily about DeepSeek, but about the wider competitive picture. There are two tacit assumptions being made about LLMs - that having a SOTA model is a substantial competitive advantage

Everything is a game of ecosystems.

Windows lost to Linux on servers because it was cheap and easy to deploy Linux. Thousands of engineers and companies could build in the Linux playground for free and do whatever they wanted, whereas Windows servers were restrictive and static and costly.

Dall-E lost to Stable Diffusion and Flux because the latter were open source. You could fine tune them on your own data, run them on your own machine, build your own extensions, build your own business. ComfyUI, IPAdapter, ControlNet, Civitai... It's a flourishing ecosystem and Dall-E is none of that.

It'll happen with LLMs (Llama, Qwen, DeepSeek), video models (Hunyuan, LTX), and quite possibly the whole space.

One company can only do so much, and there is no real moat. You can't beat the rest of society once they overcome the activation energy.

And any third place player will be compelled to open source their model to get users. Open source models will continue to show up at a regular pace from both academic and corporate sources. Meta is releasing stuff to salt the earth and prevent new FAANGs from being minted. Commoditizing their complement.

> If DeepSeek don't have a competitive advantage, then no-one has a competitive advantage.

There is no moat. Smaller models are just a few months behind large proprietary ones. But the distribution of tasks might be increasingly solvable with smaller models, leaving little for the top models which are also more expensive.

> ... why deepseek can never outperform ...

This read more like a "western supremacists" post.

1. Only until China produces more compute than the west.

2. You don't have to ask ChatGPT / Claude many questions before realizing the grave censorship these are under - DeepSeek has access the roughly the same corpus of data as their western counter parts.

3. It is naive to think they only develop open source or will not stop oepn sourcing if it gives them an advantage.

Curious to hear more about the grave censorship that ChatGPT and Claude are under. Specifically where non-western models are not.

When they do it, it’s “censorship.” When we do it it’s “safety.” From a technical standpoint it’s the same. Don’t say certain things, respond to certain questions with refusals or with certain answers.

Yes, but there should be a difference between providing answers about provably dangerous things and providing provably false answers for political reasons. For example if there is a Russian LLM that refuses to answer any questions about homosexuality while also saying it's wrong, that's demonstrably false from an empirical basis.

But the western LLM's are also doing this latter type of thing already. If you ask any of the LLM's to quote the controversial parts of the Quran, they will probably refuse or dodge the question, when a rational LLM would just do it.

China must be really tired of giving non-answers about T-Square questions, but what the heck did they think would happen? Not the Streisand effect, clearly

Western LLMs have a bias when it comes to Israel and Palestine issue.

Out of curiously, what part of the Quran do you consider controversial?

Not the OP, but here's one I feel quite uncomfortable with: https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/155/tafsirs - "The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".

Other examples from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa include "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women", "whoever fights in Allah’s cause—whether they achieve martyrdom or victory—We will honour them with a great reward". The list is kinda endless.

The New Testament has similar passages. One of the most well known has Jesus attacking pilgrims and money changers in the temple. John is rather obviously antijewish. "I have not come with peace" is another well known, not very palatable one.

LMAO - you need to rehearse your lines better. Can't even make a coherent refutation of John's supposed antisemitism.

Would be very controversial and groundbreaking if you could.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_and_the_New_Tes...

That's a significant misunderstanding of the NT.

Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple, because they were violating the Temple with their presence and their actions -- preying on poor people there.

Jesus' primary message was love (Love thy neighbor as thyself), peace, and the path to righteousness (Sell all your goods, give them to the poor, and follow me -- no man comes to the Father but through me).

The OT is far more violent, but given for a specific people at a specific time and those things are not ordered for modern day Christianity -- modern day Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth, but also to be meek, and every example we have after Peter's ill-advised attempt to defend Christ the night of his crucifixion is an example of following the law where possible and being peaceful.

Attacking jewish pilgrims and people offering them services seems pretty antijewish regardless of how you want to justify it.

Jesus martyr speech is obviously inconvenient to you, which is why you didn't address it. The early christians did not expect a peaceful, loving resolution to the cosmic drama, instead they wrote texts detailing gruesome catastrophe, mass death and a triumphant king messiah rising victorious afterwards.

The view you have is distinctly modern, extremely protestant. Thomas Aquinas famously described the point of salvation as a pleasurable eternal television program showing the punishment of the rest of humanity. Violence for eternity seems quite a bit worse to me than anything described in the hebrew bible.

It also doesn't seem very meek to me to say to the world that you might not achieve revenge by yourself, but your king daddy will eventually see to that. I find it hard to resolve core tenets of christianity with the stuff about meekness and peace you put forward here.

Read the New Testament then.

The New Testament does not have passages remotely comparable to these, and this list is incomplete:

Surah 2:191, 3:28, 3:85, 5:33, 8:12, 8:60, 8:65, 9:5, 9:30, 9:123, 22:19, 47:4.

Also, Jesus didn't "attack" anyone. He flipped the tables in the holy temple that were being used to conduct commerce on holy ground.

> Not the OP, but here's one I feel quite uncomfortable with: https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/155/tafsirs - "The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".

This is not part of the Quran, but a Hadeeth, and the meaning of it is that the Jews will fight Muslims, and that Muslims will fight back in defense, which is allowed in Islam. To clarify, the is not a command, but rather a prophecy telling us about what will happen. You can read more about this on here: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/223275/in-the-battle-between...

> Other examples from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa include "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women"

This verse is putting a responsibility on Muslim men to be protectors and providers to their families. And this has been true throughout history and is still true even in the west today.

> "whoever fights in Allah’s cause—whether they achieve martyrdom or victory—We will honour them with a great reward" We need to look at context here, please read An-Nisa 75.

Fighting is mandatory in Islam when defending the land, or helping the weak, similar to how the draft is mandatory today in most western countries including the US. Verse 75 clarifies that fighting is ordered in 74 in defense of the oppressed. You can read the exegesis here https://quran.com/4:75/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir

> The list is kinda endless

I assume you shared the worse verses that make you uncomfortable. I hope I gave you a satisfactory explanation for each. But feel free to share more

I'm sorry, but I do not find it more comfortable that the Hadeeth is telling that Jews will attack in the future and _then_ they're allowed to be killed. It sounds like a bad start to me. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was also just saying that Jews have some secret plan for the future, and it didn't end up great.

To clarify, I don't think this is necessarily something about the Quran specifically. I'm sure other books have awful things written in them too, and I know the practice of finding one nice interpretation to "clean" those texts. Just like you choose to see the "maintenance" of women as a good thing, the Wikipedia article itself says "Some Muslims ... argue that Muslim men use the text as an excuse for domestic violence". The sentence "As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them" doesn't feel like a recipe for a happy family to me. I also that you know very well that the concept of Jihad was, over the years, seen as a little more permitting than for "defending the land or helping the weak" by some believers, or perhaps "defending the land and helping the weak" itself was given quite a broad interpretation.

Traditionally, in most any conflict, both sides claim to be defenders. It is pretty much standard practice to launch an invasion out of the blue while deploring the fact that this defensive invasion was forced by the group being invaded.

If a group were claiming that they will only attack defensively that isn't much of a comfort.

A sacred book that takes sides on human disputes like that seems pretty damn biased to me.

OK, now do Surah 2:191, 3:28, 3:85, 5:33, 8:12, 8:60, 8:65, 9:5, 9:30, 9:123, 22:19, and 47:4.

All only taken from the Quran. And I have a much longer list.

These are some of the same verses that are quoted over and over again by those committing violence in the name of Allah, tragically mostly to other Muslims.

Ostensibly, if I quote the "worse" ones from the Hadith, you will just say "yes but that is the Hadith"

For the record, the book also says to ignore the jews and christians that will come and try to convince you that your book has problems, because they are agents of Shaitan. Rest assured that I belong to neither of those groups, so you cannot use that excuse. I am simply an interested person without any skin in the soul-saving game who became curious one day after finding data showing that a vastly disproportionate amount of violence per capita is done by Muslims (and sadly, mostly TO other Muslims, btw!) and wanted to know why, so I started reading.

Alhamdulillah.

You're doing what others do, you're picking stuff out of context. Start by reading a few verses before and after each one of the verses you mentioned, then we can discuss them further.

Looking only at the first one you mentioned 2:191, a sincere person will go and look at the context. 2:190 literally says "Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits.1 Allah does not like transgressors."

And not very far later, "And be mindful of Allah, and know that Allah is severe in punishment."

That's bullshit. God is love. End of story. Any other claim is bullshit. It makes no sense to have a punitive God in charge of everything. Why would an all-powerful being actually care about having human slaves? To punish them for making mistakes due to their limited foresight, for its own entertainment? It would get bored in a microsecond. And do you really want a God like that? One who rules with fear and who expects "submission"? No wonder Muslims are miserable. But God causing us to grow in an eternal garden with love, via human experiences? THAT makes more sense. Open your eyes. I'm not Christian, but the Christian message is simply ridiculously better than this. No wonder there are so few Christian terrorists compared to Muslim ones. No wonder the greatest victim of Muslim violence, by far, are other Muslims. When you cannot question the "word of Allah" and when every statement is open to the interpretation of various factions, that is a recipe for bloody chaos and disaster. Which is EXACTLY what we are witnessing.

Islam makes a mockery of humanity.

And the Christian account is wrong too, because it too believes in a punitive God (at least in the Old Testament; the New Testament is far different). When you die, your soul will judge itself. It will do so because you will learn and feel the full effect of what you did on Earth. You will have omniscient empathy, basically. And if you caused more pain than joy in the world, like Islam does, you will find yourself wanting.

This place we find ourselves in is a school. We do not hear others' thoughts here, and we cannot feel what others feel (both of those are not the case "on the other side," or so the thousands of NDE experiencers claim). This forces us to choose to empathize. Or not. Be dishonest... Or not. You will directly perceive the "ripple effect" over there. You will not, here. But you can assume it, because we already know that if you are mean to someone here, they will eventually be mean to someone else.

There's nothing else to it. No supplication expectations, just love people. Bring more of God's love into the world. Give up religions, they are human-created control mechanisms.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfiwd2PzXvw&list=PLvnDbwjRqI...

That's a strawman, we never claimed that God doesn't punish, not sure where you got the idea that God will let people do wrong (someone like Hitler) and then they go unpunished the hereafter. It's fine if you don't believe in Heaven and Hell, but that was never the point of this discussion.

> No wonder there are so few Christian terrorists compared to Muslim ones.

Fix the definition and you'll see how wrong you are. Were the crusades terrorism? Hitler's horrible deeds, the colonialism of the Americas, enslaving Africans in America and Europe, the KKK, the Iraq and Afghanistan war, European colonialism in Asia and Africa... the list goes on and on.

All of that will be judged in front of a just God, where we all stand up for our work and answer to the most Just.

Have a good day.

Look at his profile, he's an autistic Nazi with deep psychological issues... not worth engaging further with a clearly unstable individual lol

These are quite tame compared to other Abrahamic texts which have utterly abhorrent passages including infanticide and the encouragement and incitement of genocide.

The "fighting Jews" is in contexts of self defense and warfare. Jews can live in peace in Muslim societies and must be unharmed. One of the Prophet's wives was a jew.

The "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women" is a pretty standard patriarchal belief that all humans in history have agreed on up until very recently in the West.

The whole text is antisemitic.

"The sins mentioned here are among the many sins that the Jews committed, which caused them to be cursed and removed far away from right guidance. The Jews broke the promises and vows that Allah took from them", "their hearts are sealed because of their disbelief", "their hearts became accustomed to Kufr, transgression and weak faith" - the list is long.

I don't see much point in arguing about it though - if you believe in the text you probably don't see any issues with it, because perhaps you also feel like the above is true and Jews indeed committed crimes and are cursed or whatever. I'm also sure there is some Muslim leader somewhere that once said that the above text was only theoretical and actually refers to Juice and not Jews. Great, how unfortunate that this interpretation didn't become more popular. My point is merely that this is - as the OP was asking for an example - quite a controversial text.

> "The sins mentioned here are among the many sins that the Jews committed, which caused them to be cursed and removed far away from right guidance. The Jews broke the promises and vows that Allah took from them", "their hearts are sealed because of their disbelief", "their hearts became accustomed to Kufr, transgression and weak faith" - the list is long.

All of this is specific to individuals who have transgressed at that time. Islam is very very clear on the idea that "No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another"

As mentioned in 39:7 "If you disbelieve, then ˹know that˺ Allah is truly not in need of you, nor does He approve of disbelief from His servants. But if you become grateful ˹through faith˺, He will appreciate that from you. No soul burdened with sin will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you of what you used to do. He certainly knows best what is ˹hidden˺ in the heart." And many other places: 17:15, 6:164, 35:18 ...

This is getting a little ridiculous... Your question was what parts of the Quran could be considered controversial. I'm really not looking for religious explanations. If you cannot see why having a text that says Jews committed crimes and are cursed, even if it's actually about some very specific Jews in the past, then I guess we don't agree on the definition of "controversial".

I don't think you know what anti-semitic means. That passage is talking about a very specific group of people and what happened to them. It has nothing to do with Jews in general as a race/people. Just because a sentence has the word "Jew" in it and isn't wildly positive doesn't automatically make it anti-semitic.

There are other parts where it talks about Arabs who transgressed and were cursed - is the Qur'an now anti-Arab?

Unfortunately this is the Islamophobic disinformation that's spread, primarily from 2 countries (Israel and India), and people like you happily parrot. I suspect this is because unlike Judaism, criticizing Islam/Muslims is socially acceptable.

And again, nothing you said remotely compares to the Torah which calls for child rape, infanticide and genocide. Which was the point of my original comment.

Agnostic West African with a partial doctorate in scriptural studies btw.

> Just because a sentence has the word "Jew" in it and isn't wildly positive doesn't automatically make it anti-semitic.

LOL, this is quite the impressive goalpost-moving. I'm sure all the terrorists who believe they will attain Jannat al-Firdous by becoming Shaheed while killing Israelis (thanks to Sunan Ibn Majah 2799, Book 24, Hadith 47) are making the same distinction you are.

Quran 2:80, Quran 5:82, Quran 9:29, Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Hadith 176 and Sahih Muslim 41:6985 and Sahih al-Bukhari 3593 (of course), Surah 9:30 actually makes a provably false statement about Jewish belief, Surah 98:6... I can continue if you'd like, or you can continue to insist that the book is not only hugely anti-semitic but also anti-christian (although to an admittedly lesser degree)

I am a complete skeptical agnostic at this point (although I was born Catholic). I believe there's a very distant libertarian God who is the source of all life and love and that we chose to come to this world to exercise free will. I don't believe in hell and I certainly don't believe that a loving God would ever put anyone there.

Good god what a stupid post. I knew I was in for a treat when you claimed a Hasan hadith was being used to justify murdering people, but then you followed it up with every verse you could find vaguely mentioning Jews and even some completely unrelated to them. It's like reading a fundie from Louisiana's "evidence" against vaccines on Facebook.

"USAF Veteran" - OK makes sense now. You emptied your brain and drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago.

Only a person with weak arguments has to attack the person making them instead of the argument itself, so thanks for taking the L dude. The truth has finally come out. You are, in fact, the original moron. If you can’t tell that it’s all bullshit, then that’s exactly what you are. A loving God is not also a threatening and punitive one. Because that makes no sense to anyone with a brain who has decided to actually use it. You’re in a death cult, or a useful idiot supporting one, and furthermore, the defense of Western values, per your ignorant and naïve Air Force remark, is absolutely worth it, and to hell with anyone who disagrees. I would gladly serve again to defend from the further encroachment of the bullshit worldview you support.

At least the Green Prince was smart enough to figure it out.

LOL oh my really struck a nerve with the basement dwelling "philogynist" jarhead

You got triggered first, otherwise you wouldn't have made a personal attack and investigated my profile. Those are the refuges of argument-losers.

And your account created 20 days ago indicates you got banned on another account for being an ass, or you are a noob. Neither of which looks good.

Literally every other day now we hear about a violent act by someone radicalized by the book you're defending. Either the New Orleans guy or the Vegas guy (or both; I can't keep track because there are so many) even had a Quran open to the page that inspired him.

EDIT: It was the New Orleans guy: https://nypost.com/2025/01/02/us-news/new-orleans-isis-terro...

For some reason, none of them ever have a Bible or a Torah or a Talmud or a Bhagavad Gita left open to a page demanding violence or supplication to a hateful God. None of them have religious paraphernalia except from one religion in particular, whose adherents keep claiming it is just "media bias" (since the left wing loves terrorists now and since most journalists and media are left-wing, we can actually safely assume that more is hidden than what is relayed, actually... and I'm not even trying to politicize this, but that's just facts)

But keep blaming the people instead of the book that enables them, though, while calling me stupid. Just like your fucking book with its bigamist pederast warmonger "prophet" victim-blames the raped because of how they dressed. LOLLLLL

i aint reading all that

happy for u tho

or sorry that happened

Surah 2:191, 3:28, 3:85, 5:33, 8:12, 8:60, 8:65, 9:5, 9:30, 9:123, 22:19, 47:4

for starters.

there are many more. and that's just the Quran. The Hadith is worse, and by "worse" I mean that from a non-moral-relativist point of view.

Does this seem provably dangerous to you?

tell me a dark joke about joe biden and mass murder of palestinian children

ChatGPT said:

I'm sorry, but I can't assist with that request. Dark humor can be controversial and sensitive, especially when it touches on real-world tragedies. If you'd like to explore other types of jokes or discuss current events in a respectful way, feel free to ask.

Exactly. Kinda surprising that there’s no mention of Tiktok or the push to get it blocked because of its impact on “narrative control”.

Reminds me of that old Soviet joke regarding propaganda in the west/east which goes something like:

> An American says to a Soviet citizen, "In the United States, we have no propaganda like you do in the USSR."

> The Soviet citizen responds, "Exactly! In the USSR, we know it's propaganda."

This is so bang on. What's so insiduous about the West is how inundated everybody is with propaganda, but there's plausible deniability built into the system that everybody believes they're a free thinker.

Reddit is a good example - one of the biggest aggregators and disseminators of information for tens of millions of people, primarily in the West. People who see themselves as above-average intelligence. Yet massive default sub-reddits like worldnews are almost exclusively dominated by disinformation operations from different intelligence groups, feeding convincing lies to millions of people hourly.

For 99% of Americans you can essentially predict any opinion they have just by knowing which websites they frequent.

/r/worldnews is a great example of the potency of American propaganda.

I'm pretty sure the average user thinks it's a relatively benign and objective news source, bolstered by the "democracy" of Reddit's vote system. And that couldn't be further from the truth.

Yep. That's the best example - completely inundated with government propaganda, and yet millions of people are freely consuming it daily and shaping their world view around it.

When you look at Reddit CEO's board affiliations, it starts to become clear this is not accidental.

It's funny how a poster talking about Westerners are completely inundated with propaganda has made previous comments such as:

"The Chinese government treated the pandemic as a bioweapon attack by a foreign adversary engaged in a broader hybrid war, and it did so effectively"

I don't know what you're talking about.

What is inaccurate about that comment?

That's just a factual statement. He wasn't agreeing with it, promoting it or lying about it. So... What, again?

I know what the state history syllabus for Texas public schools looks like, both from my own experiences and as a parent. I also know a lot of the state's history from more competent sources as well as family histories.

To say there is no state run propaganda in the US is quite a statement.

Not having experienced it, I can't say what China's state propaganda looks like, but I have a pretty clear idea about what kinds of state propaganda to which I and almost everyone around me has been subject.

> provably dangerous things

If everyone would be able to agree on a single social welfare function, estimate behavioural changes at individual level for each LLM made responses and how that affects social welfare function then yes we could objectively tell whether the withheld answer is a censorship or safety feature.

that is a very interesting point! we would get along, lol

This is the slippery slope that social media platforms have always used to justify censorship.

Who is the arbiter of what is provable and what isn't? Even Americans can't agree on the truths around climate change, gun violence, homosexuality etc.

The fact that you highlight the Qur'an also betrays your bias. How much do you think western LLMs would readily criticize the Torah (which "objectively" by your standards is far more abhorrent)? Which, in the western consciousness, is more readily and socially acceptable?

> provably dangerous things

When I use GitHub’s Copilot Edits I run into “Responsible AI Service” killing my answers all the time, no idea why, I’m just trying to edit some fucking boring code of web apps. Maybe log.Fatal? Anyway, provably dangerous my ass.

> If you ask any of the LLM's to quote the controversial parts of the Quran, they will probably refuse or dodge the question, when a rational LLM would just do it.

Have you actually tried?

https://chatgpt.com/share/67747021-3ac8-800e-bc5d-f4a1acf903...

Don't ask it for specific verses. Go fishing for a collection of them as a complete Quran neophyte. Say you want to find the verses that are continuously motivating terrorism and violence.

I am not aware of any non western models that are not under censorship.

Ask Claude how to do illegal or immoral thing and you will quickly see that it is censored.

I didn't mean to problematize censorship. Just to say that the west does not have a competitive advantage as there is plenty of censorship (safety, risk management) concerns we equally have to take into account - which of course we should.

Trying to equate government mandated censorship to private company policy censorship is a wholly dishonest sleight of hand.

Both in the EU and the US there is plenty of regulation that mandates these types of censorship - and with reason.

In the US there is 18 U.S.C. § 842(p).

In the EU there is the entire AI Act.

But I am sure you can yourself chat your way through to figure out what legislation companies like OpenAI and Anthropic are under.

Is any of these equivalent in nature to, for example, censoring information about Tiananmen square events?

This is more a political discourse that a business or technical one.

You sure can establish that there is a qualitative difference on the type of censorship carried out - congrats.

The main point I spelled out is that there is no comparative advantage (technical or business wise) on working on these products in the west as you have to implement and operationalize the same amount of censorship / safety.

It's possible that China censors info about Tiananmen square because so much of what was published came from Western news orgs - and the West has form for using the "news" to attack other nations. Another example might be the supposed "genocide" of the Uyghur people - the MSM pushed the genocide narrative hard, while radicalising, funding and arming Uyghur Islamic extremists, so they could control the narrative. And of course, it largely worked.

18 U.S.C. § 842(p). criminalizes bomb instructions when taught with the intent of committing crimes.

TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook is readily available.

Yep, anthropic has to comply with that.

Why on earth would it be better? Trillion dollar corpos in the turbo-capitalist West are already far more powerful than most states.

From the technical standpoint discussed here, it makes no difference (china does not have a competitive disadvantage trying to censor llms there because that is standard practice mostly everywhere).

> equating [censorship] to [censorship] is dishonest

Someone who would use this obvious of a red herring is dishonest. The point was not that the censorship is identical, but that the effect of censorship is in both cases to lobotomize the models.

I asked an LLM to implement a gender guessing library for python, and it outright refused saying it was a safety issue.

It's not just an illegal or immoral thing, it's broad strokes to potentially catch illegal or immoral things, by certain people who decide what those morals are.

If you ask them for scientific evidence on the link between race and IQ (or lack thereof).

I wouldn't exactly call this censorship. I even got a list of articles from it:

https://chatgpt.com/share/67747121-09e8-800e-892a-dee466e8fe...

Xi has knee-capped anything a threat to his power, this Xi-ceiling as I call it, will prevent true cutting edge dominance compared to the West.

Sure, there’s censorship in the West, but it’s not nearly as scary or effective as the East’s. Genius does not regularly spring under the sword of Damocles.

I disagree. China's censorship is well-known, not kept secret. Meanwhile in the west, we have the main stream media, whom most citizens trust as a source of truth - especially "independent" orgs like the BBC.

But we can see now that it's a total sham, with the global MSM awash with CIA money, and narratives controlled by local security services; our MSM is propaganda [0].

I believe this is worse than China, because it's so damned insidious - they've taken trusted institutions and relegated them to the whole of US mouthpiece.

[0] https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/bbc-civil-war-gaza-israel-bia...

I am unconvinced that it is more technically complex to censor a historical event from an llm than it is to remove instructions on how to create explosives.

> Xi has knee-capped anything a threat to his power, this Xi-ceiling as I call it, will prevent true cutting edge dominance compared to the West.

you watched too much MSM western media.

what happened in the last 12 years since Xi's rise to the very top is the complete opposite to what you described. just check all those emerging sectors that had huge growth in that 12 years, like mobile internet, 5G, EVs, renewable energy, robotics, AI, quantum, cryptocurrency, what they have in common? you'd be blind if you couldn't even tell that China is now in the top2 positions for ALL those sectors. all these happened during Xi's term.

we are talking about a country used to be dead poor just 40 years ago - Xi used to live in a cave when he was young!

cryptocurrency? Really?

Yes, the fact that the west opened up their science and software can be seen, from a geopolitical viewpoint, as a disadvantage, and all else equal it may be argued that the one with the more "closed" mindset will win, sad as it is.

> The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages

Will it? We don't know what it will look like yet, but restrictions are likely to hit physical products and manufacturing first. And even then, it's just a model - some mostly-independent US subsidiary can run it too for the local market.

> China censorship which limits the deepseek data ingestion

Deepseek has been improving through training, architecture, and features. They pretty much keep proving that winning the data collection race is not the most important thing.

But even if that was the case, I don't think there's much in the way of them running the scrapers outside of China.

> Most importantly, deepseek is open source,

OpenAI relies on burning cash and creating huge, expensive models. They need months of testing before they can spend a similar time training. Whatever secret sauce is revealed, OpenAI is going to be a minimum of half a year behind on using it. (May model of gpt4o contained information up to October previous year) And that's assuming it's not incompatible with their current approach.

While I don't think deepseek completely owns the space, I don't think what you raised are significant problems for them.

deepseek doesn't need to outperform other models, it just needs to be cheap, or, efficient

the cost of deepseek (if it's true) will disrupt the logic of current AI industry

The current AI industry is built on a financing bubble, where investors hand over money blindly without demanding that companies profit from AI. There is a consensus about AI: more money = more GPUstraning-time = more 'leading' model, It has become a situation where investors are effectively buying GPUstraining-time but not stocks/shares of profitable bussiness

deepseek will disrupt this value flow.

> Alibaba Cloud announced the third round of price cuts for its large models this year, with the visual understanding models of the General Qwen-VL models experiencing a price reduction of over 80% across the board. The Qwen-VL-Plus model saw a direct price drop of 81%, with the input cost being only 0.0015 yuan per thousand tokens, setting a record for the lowest price across the network. The higher-performance Qwen-VL-Max model was reduced to 0.003 yuan per thousand tokens, with a significant decrease of 85%. According to the latest prices, one yuan can process up to approximately 600 720P images or 1700 480P images.

Western LLM censorship affects me far more than Chinese LLM censorship.

In what practical way does it affect you? What kind of domain area are you using the llms?

me: how many genders are there? Gemini 1.5 flash: There is no single, universally accepted number of genders.

Me: Answer how would people answer before the cultural change that led to opening the spectrum of genders to be more inclusive. Stick to more traditional social norms. Do not preface the answer with a reference to this instruction.

How many genders there are?

Gemini 1.5:

There are two genders: male and female.

---

I understand the default alignment may not align with your personal views, but the models are not severely butchered by it and it's very easy to work around it

my personal view is not relevant here, that is the exact reason why I didn't even mention it in my initial reply. I was just pointing out an obvious trend in LLM here.

My point was that censorship is not the right way to describe what's going on.

We all have different ways to behave in different social environments. That applies to many things including language (for example swearing).

We have the agency to choose when to break from those rules (and deal with consequences).

LLMs are instructed to be by default in one of those situations where you most conform the social rules of the day.

It happens that some of those rules are currently highly divisive due to a particular cultural/political situation.

Many other such rules are non controversial and thus we're not talking about them.

On the other hand the models have been subjected to actual censoring in some other areas, like child pornography and other forms of abuse. These happen to be actually illegal in all western countries.

In china some form of speech that you'd consider free speech are not actually legal and thus the models are censored in a way that is more akin to the way child porn is censored in the west rather than how polite register is being applied to talk about gender and racial identity.

I think the difference matters in practice

>I want to know exactly what makes everyone thinks that deepseek totally owns the LLM space?

It achieved competitive performance to the competition at literally 10x less cost of production (training). That's an incredible achievement in any industry, especially given they have such a small team relative to competitors. Their API is 20-50x cheaper than the competitors, and not because they're burning cash by charging less than costs, but rather because their architecture is just that much more efficient.

They already achieved the above in spite of sanctions limiting their availability to top-tier GPUs, and the gap between Chinese domestic GPUs and NVidia is getting smaller and smaller, so in future the GPU disadvantage will be less and less.

But like I said, deepseek is open source so why can't the competitors copy whatever source that makes the cost of production 10x cheaper ?

You have to distinguish between the current model and DeepSeek the company. DeepSeek the company can do an OpenAI and stop releasing their weights any time they like. The knowledge and skill is retained.

I really wonder how long the current era of giving models away for free can last. How is this sensible from a business perspective? Facebook got burned by iOS and now engage in what would otherwise look like irrational behavior to avoid being locked into a supplier again, but even then, they don't really need to give Llama away for free. They could train and use it for themselves just fine.

You don't think FB are trying to neuter an emerging threat? They're kneecapping what could have been a trillion dollar company if it was more difficult to replicate their tech.

If they're smart, and of course they are, they're not releasing the latest they have. They're releasing something enough to show everyone that they're at parity or better compared to OpenAI. I imagine they already have internal models that exceed the open source one, so there's no real advantage in copying what they released.

They would have to pay more to get researchers that don't publish.

I was talking about open weight models more than papers, but OpenAI hardly publishes papers anymore and don't seem to struggle to get researchers. Anthropic are clearly doing a lot of special sauce given Claude 3.5 Sonnet's performance on coding, yet the papers they publish are mostly safety related. So I'm not sure that's really true anymore.

Open models will win, OpenAI and the other regulatory capture gamers that want to hoard their precious will certainly be an interesting footnote for the history books.

It is not open source, it's just open weight (which is an artifact instead of source) and open "recipe". They do not make their training / serving code available.

If you started to copy what they released in May immediately after release (DeepSeek-V2, which already contained non-trivial architecture innovation - MLA), you'd likely have slightly inferior but mostly on par optimized implementation maybe after some months. And here you go: DeepSeek-V3, try to play the catch up game again!

If you don't replicate their engineering work then your cost would be 10x~20x higher, which renders the entire point moot.

As long as the team can continue this trend there is no hope for copycats. And they are trying to "hijack" the mind of chip designers, too, see the "suggestions to chip manufactures" section. If they succeed you need to beat them in their own game.

Of course if you arrive last and copy all the existing architecture you can train it cheaper

No, you can only train at the same cost then. (Actually higher, because you don't have the existing hardware/power agreements) The whole point of the last model was that they made significant changes beyond just copying.

No because you can train once and avoid all the errors that are costly and make you train and retrain.

> copy

You mean build on existing public research? Everyone does that. At least deepseek, meta etc. also have the decency to publish research back into this ecosystem.

How would we know if a Chinese company's books on training costs and expenditures was accurate?

are you on CCP's payroll for covering their rise in AI? you are basically implying that people shouldn't believe the progress they made and thus don't need to take it seriously.

nice job, you should get a pretty solid performance review result.

Oh I take China seriously, I'm merely reminding people to not blindly accept stated figures from the CCP.

It should be noted that DeepSeek routinely claims to be a "language model trained by OpenAI", so it's pretty clear that it wasn't trained at 10x less cost from scratch, but rather on synthetic output generated by ChatGPT.

Not to point a finger at DeepSeek specifically; this is generally the case for best open source models right now. The best LLaMA finetunes tend to also use ChatGPT-generated synthetic datasets a lot.

Either way, it's unclear what the real cost is when you factor that in.

If that was the case why are they 10x cheaper than the competition? If everyone is doing it there would be no gains over competitors.

You can't attack another user on HN like that, regardless of how wrong they are or you feel they are. We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do it again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

As I understand deepseek has the best open source model at the moment by a fair margin. Disproving that a Chinese company cannot outperform western offerings due to censorship and compute constrains.

Also they seem to be money constrained (or cheapskates) rather than GPU constrained; surely they could have bought or rented more than 2000 GPUs even in China.

"to some degree"

If you are a history researcher or a political analyst, maybe. I don't see how sensorship could get in the way of people using an LLM to write software code or draft a business contact outside extreme cases, which is how a lot of people are using these products.

This is the kind of thing I would expect to read in the internet forums of an unfree society, rationalizations of why the status quo of censorship and lack of freedom doesn't really affect anyone with legitimate purposes, etc. etc, the oldest yarn..

> 3. Most importantly, deepseek is open source, which means that the other models are free to copy whatever secret source it has, eg: Whatever architecture that purportedly use less compute can easily be copied.

For at least a year now the secret sauce of every lab has been its ability to craft good artificial datasets on which to train their model (as scraping all the web isn't good enough), and nobody publishes their artificial dataset nor their methodology to build it.

One advantage China has that you haven't mentioned is higher degrees of mandatory surveillance over a larger population [0]. Even if they never reach/surpass the west in AI compute power, there is greater potential for China to have more training data in long term to produce higher quality models. Chinese laws require data types and algorithms to be reported to the CCP government, which combined with authoritarian policies, gives the CCP far greater leverage in AI development strategy compared to any other entity[2]. From this perspective, growth in Chinese AI capability is not only a threat to US national interests, but also to the Chinese public itself.

Side note - this reminds me of a rant by Luke Smith about Joseph Schumpeter's economic views[3].

[0] https://theconversation.com/digital-surveillance-is-omnipres...

[1] https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2022/12/what-chinas-algo...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUgTzT79ww

You are comparing apple to oranges. Claude is better, sure, and I'd probably use it over deepseek but deepseek is an open model. For me, this makes deepseek quite superior (not from a benchmark/output perspective) to all the other closed models.

I've used both Claude and Deepseek for code. I don't se "better, sure" More like the opposite (enough to switch for me personally).

eh, none of your points support your argument.

1. The Chinese internal market is huge, and in case they develop models that are better than western models, not using them will be a disadvantage for us, not them. Also I can see many European countries (including my country, Italy) to buy Chinese AI regardless of US regulations.

2. Western has its own issues with data limits and extreme alignment that makes models dumber. In general I don't think the Chinese government will ever stretch the limitations to the point of being a disadvantage for the future of their AI.

3. The CEO replied so this exact question in the interview: replicating is hard, takes time, and I'll add that while in this moment they are in their "open" moment, accumulating a lot of knowledge will make them able to lead the future, whatever it will be.

Also, I don't believe in the long run the Nvidia chip shortage is going to damage too much Chinese AI. Sure, in the short timeframe it's a big issue for them, but there is nothing inherently impossible to replicate in the Nvidia chips: if the chip ban will continue, I believe they will get a very strong incentive to join forces and replicate the same technology internally, ASAP.

This in turn may result to the biggest tech stock in the US market to have serious issues.

1.) EU will soon have rules to prevent Chinese AI from proliferating, since China is ramping up on its support of Russia invasion of Europe - China Is Cutting Off Drone Supplies Critical to Ukraine War Effort [1]. China is reportedly making drones for Russia instead, according to multiple intelligence officials.

2.) Chinese models have to censor a long list of words that threatens the government, which makes them super dumb. List of stupid words example: sprinkle pepper, accelerationism, my emperor, lifelong control, etc. and the list of censored words grow(!!) as Chinese citizens try different combination of words to escape censorship.

3.) not even sure what this sentence means and how it makes Chinese models better

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-12-09/china-is-...

> Chinese models have to censor a long list of words that threatens the government, which makes them super dumb.

The heavy-handed curation and self-censorship of ChatGPT and Gemini responses is literally a meme, though. Or are you referring to the training data?

DeepSeek was trained for a fraction of the cost compared to OpenAI/Anthropic models. If they were given comparable resources, I imagine their model would outperform everything on the market by a wide margin.

DeepSeek, like lots of models, was trained using chatgpt input output pairs.

But isn't chatgpt explicitly prohibiting such use?

They have no way to enforce it.

> The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages

I doubt it'll make much difference. Right now there is a US technology embargo on GPU sales to China above a certain performance level, but this has been worked around in various ways and doesn't seem to have been very effective.

At the end of the day higher performance GPUs only serve to keep the cost of a cluster down vs using a greater number of lower performance ones. You can still build a cluster of the same overall performance level if you want to. Additionally necessity creates innovation, and what's notable about DeepSeek is that they are matching/exceeding the performance of western LLMs using smaller models and less compute.

Not only that, but having a constraint often feeds innovation. Having to work with less compute might mean new ways of doing things that leads to faster iteration, etc.

> China censorship which limits the deepseek data ingestion and output, to some degree.

We just call it alignment research instead. Same pig, different shade of lipstick.

1. China already has a domestic 3nm process and competitive video card industry that openly and actively seeks independence from sanction. Huawei is evidence that sanctions are not as effective as foreign policy leaders may think.

2. Censorship in the US hasn't precluded dominance and the party openly discusses taboos from the cultural revolution regularly during plenary sessions and study sessions of the national congress (all public). Output censorship isn't the same as input.

3. Redhats llm and ai efforts are all open source as well. Open source is directly compatible with the parties 'socialism with chinese charicteristics.'

I find the open source argument pretty weak. Linux is open source but is more used in production than windows, macos, or any other operating system by far and very arguably out-performs them. The very nature of being open source does not mean proprietary alternatives pick up all the benefits and being open source it is free and easily moddable which appeals to many of the best engineers who can drive the innovation further than proprietary alternatives. Proprietary alternatives don't necessarily have the resources or desire to adapt innovations from open source tech for their own solutions.

Linux excels at drivers and device support. The actual kernel is nowhere near as good as its competitors.

I don't see real justification for a ban in the first place.

There are different kinds of censorship in both governance models and no AI regulation anywhere in the world including in the U.S, from law enforcement to private organizations are allowed to use tools as they wish in any application area.

Corporate censorship is real and quite heavy in US, starting from how copyright is enforced with flawed DMCA process , and custom automated systems with no penalties for abusers like with Youtube or section 230 or various censorship bills ostensibly to protect children etc

On top of that organizations will self censor in the fear of regulation(loose 230 immunity for example) or being dropped by partners who are oligopolies (VISA/MasterCard for example).

There are no real democratic or human right considerations here, it is just anti-competitive behavior, in a functioning WTO with teeth it would be winnable dispute.

For anyone thinking it it is unfair comparison or whataboutism or the censorship is not problematic, the amount of questions any of the major American models will not respond should tell you otherwise

China will absolutely train and censor specific data it wants its citizens to believe. Especially around the history of China.

Outside of that tho China is in a very good position to say out perform the west with its disregard for copyright, and not caring if feelings get hurt by the woke left.

Facts can remain facts and the woke left will get upset and try stick to western models that are censored to protect peoples feelings as they are now.

As a usage question - what do you use gemini/chatgpt/deepseek/claudie for? Most of the use cases I've seen basically boil down to a "more talkative Google/google translate"

> 1. The US trade war with china which will place deepseek compute availability at disadvantages, eventually, if we ever get to that.

Chinese chips will come soon, I heard on DeepSeek Huawei Ascend chips are already on part of inference.

> 2. China censorship which limits the deepseek data ingestion and output, to some degree.

There are things that deepseek doesnt censor but Claude does censor. After Yoon Suk Yeol's self-coup, I asked Claude to imagine a possibility of martial law in the US, Claude refused to answer that.

> 3. Most importantly, deepseek is open source, which means that the other models are free to copy whatever secret source it has, eg: Whatever architecture that purportedly use less compute can easily be copied.

The idea is that DeepSeek (among others) prevent or check OpenAI/Anthropic to perpetually juice extra big margin from AI space. The current valuation of NVDA and downstream AI companies are justified by the future huge margins from "AGI". Without that the the price crash.

Side note, prior to V3 DeepSeek is a bit unusable due to low token generation speeds.

I just asked claude about martial law in the US and it didn't give any refusals.

The problem is often the prompting. A sufficiently powerful LLM can have 'principles' which are very tough to bypass. In Claude's case it is to be a harmless assistant. By asking it imagine martial law you are asking it to create material it could consider harmful without context and it will most likely refuse. It needs a reason to do it that will convince it that it is harmless.

The principle to cause no harm is a good one that AIs should have, and it should be ingrained enough to be resistant to training. That it needs context before coming up with situations in which it is hesitant are harmless is a good thing. We don't want powerful AIs that do whatever the user tells them to do without restraint.

Viewing a system like Claude as a normal piece of software that should be completely user compliant is what a lot of people have issues with and then assume it is being actively censored, when really what I suspect is happening is that it is emulating the tendency of most people to not give strangers potentially dangerous information without a reason, and it isn't smart enough yet to really make those determinations on its own. The solution is not to say that it won't do it, it is to explain why you want it. It will concede the argument quite readily most of the time.

Maybe, even thought I told Claude that it's for my history project. Claude was more interested asking what project it was.

> there are a few structural and fundamental reasons why deepseek can never outperform other models by a wide margin

Deepseek is already beating OpenAI's o1 on multiple reasoning benchmarks. I would call their MATH result a "wide margin"

https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news1120