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Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by onlyrealcuzzo on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @05:42PM (#42446230)
Of course it's controversial.

They do this to increase profits.

A certain portion of the population is pro-profit at virtually any cost.

It might seem like Dish employees wake up every day and say, "What can we do today to screw our customers even more?" But usually they're just trying to find ways to make more money.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by Centigonal on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @05:47PM (#42446279)
Dish knows their satellite TV business is on the way out. Their strategy is to maximize the present value of that business by retaining and squeezing as many of those customers as much as possible, slowing the decline and pulling as much money out of that vertical for as long as they still have it, so that they can reinvest that cash into new verticals with more promise.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by Aloha on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:13PM (#42446466)
The ironic part of all of this, I would have pay linear TV services if it was cheaper - 50 bucks a month for the whole house, and I suspect they could have 30%+ more customers.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by thanksgiving on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @08:01PM (#42447166)
It doesn't solve the problem that "the line must constantly go up". A steady revenue and constant returns isn't good enough, apparently and in the case of dish, it will be declining revenue over time no matter what they do.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by gosub100 on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @12:47PM (#42452889)
Dish profit doesn't scale that way. They have to pay the channels for broadcast rights. More TVs per household means in theory more royalties paid to the networks.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by gosub100 on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @12:44PM (#42452840)
I swear these satellite services could eliminate live tv and go on-demand only using a hard drive DVR style, with maybe 10-20 live channels. Everything else would be a stream that would download and notify you when it was ready. The bandwidth of those dishes has got to be multiple gigabytes per second. They could broadcast everything and the viewers would just opt in to the specific shows or movies they want. Completely switch the business model.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by xp84 on Friday December 20, 2024 @09:38AM (#42471418)
What would be the point though? To offer a slower imitation of streaming to people in remote areas? Most people are happy with regular internet streaming.

Dish did do something sort of similar years ago though, don’t know if they still do, but they did some thing where your DVR would automatically record all primetime shows, so in that way, as long as you were ok waiting for the next day, in a sense, “everything was on demand.” https://www.reddit.com/r/dishnetwork/s/e0wspFb7zq

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by xp84 on Thursday December 19, 2024 @10:31AM (#42462382)
Re: failing business

To be fair, satellite TV has always been one of these even when it was a healthy business. High cost of acquisition, high commission for sales, high barrier to cancel.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by amyames on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:39PM (#42446652)
>It might seem like Dish employees wake up every day and say, "What can we do today to screw our customers even more?"

Made the mistake of buying a boost mobile sim this year. It was “expired” upon opening it. Retailer refused to refund it.

Having not learned my lesson yet, I went elsewhere and ripped it open to check the expiration date this time before I bought it.

Well “it’s prepaid for 90 days and comes with 35 gigs” it says on the card.

Go to activate it, it puts a further $100 on my credit card and congratulates me for activating my 30 gig service plan.

Hokey frauds.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by selimthegrim on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:01PM (#42446804)
Be glad you weren’t on Ting.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by simfree on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @09:08PM (#42447508)
What crap did Ting pull on you?

Their aggressive data throttling always rubbed me the wrong way, along with the Extreme data pricing, considering it was on Sprint's terrible network.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by jagged-chisel on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:49PM (#42447094)
> "What can we do today to screw our customers even more?" But usually they're just trying to find ways to make more money.

But you repeat yourself.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by joecool1029 on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:00PM (#42446380)
> It might seem like Dish employees wake up every day and say, "What can we do today to screw our customers even more?"

Shit flows downhill. Their owner, Charlie Ergan, wakes up every day thinking of new ways to defraud the government with DISH and Echostar: https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/doj-moved-to-dismiss-3...

I usually complain about his spectrum squatting with DISH, but there's so much more if you dig a little.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by meiraleal on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:33PM (#42446982)
The directors and shareholders, not the employees. They only want to get paid.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by throw10920 on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @06:35PM (#42446622)
> A certain portion of the population is pro-profit at virtually any cost.

What percent? (Citation needed if it's anything greater than 1%) What does "virtually" mean? This statement has no details and just comes across as political dogwhistling as a result.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by BadHumans on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:06PM (#42446834)
Do you expect there to have been studies done on what percentage of the population puts profit over everything else?

> What does "virtually" mean?

virtually /vûr′choo͞-ə-lē/ adverb Almost but not quite; nearly.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by throw10920 on Sunday December 22, 2024 @02:17AM (#42484868)
> Do you expect there to have been studies done on what percentage of the population puts profit over everything else?

I expect people to not make claims without evidence. I never asked for a study, either - that's you misreading my comment. I asked for a citation, which could be a public poll - some empirical evidence, as opposed to none.

> virtually /vûr′choo͞-ə-lē/ adverb Almost but not quite; nearly.

This is an intentional misinterpretation of my question, as well as being sarcastic to mock and emotionally attack me. Any reasonable reader would have known that I meant "what value does virtually mean here?"

You're intentionally being deceptive and emotionally manipulative to push a political agenda. Don't do that.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:11PM (#42446857)
> A certain portion of the population is pro-profit at virtually any cost.

This is a mischaracterization of the criticism.

Suppose we all agree that Dish sucks and making it hard to cancel is malicious. A rule is proposed to require customers to be able to cancel any subscription on the vendor's website. Is that a completely reasonable rule that will have no negative consequences?

A lot of small businesses don't even have a website, or if they do it's fully static content that just provides information about their offering and if you want it you call them. Some two-person landscaping service doesn't have an IT department to implement this and having to call them to cancel isn't a real problem because they actually answer their phone.

And if this was only one rule they would just suck it up and pay someone a thousand bucks to make them a website where you can cancel, but it's not. So when you propose yet another piece of red tape they have to take food off their table to make go away, they line up with rotten tomatoes, and anyone proposing to pare some of it back gets their vote.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by acaloiar on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:34PM (#42446992)
Click to cancel does not mean exactly what the name implies. It means cancellation must be as easy as signup [1]. In your example, signup is not a click away, so the cancellation process need not be. It’s a very reasonable position.

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2024/10/...

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by danaris on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @10:18AM (#42451119)
To be fair, the name "click to cancel" does not, in fact, imply that cancellation must be as easy as signup in cases where signup is not a click away. A name that would better imply that would be something like "symmetric cancellation", or "cancellation parity". However, that would be less catchy to the public than "click to cancel".
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by khuey on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:28PM (#42446947)
> A rule is proposed to require customers to be able to cancel any subscription on the vendor's website.

Except that's not the proposed rule. The way this works in California (and the way the rule the FTC recently published works, I believe) is that a business is required to allow customers to cancel "in the same medium" that they subscribed. That doesn't require anyone to start running a website.

The rest of your post is just arguing against something that's not even happening.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @08:09PM (#42447213)
> a business is required to allow customers to cancel "in the same medium" that they subscribed.

But then you're not really fixing it anymore. "Must be able to cancel directly via website" (i.e. without waiting for a customer service rep) might have been useful. Require only the same medium and soon Dish has both sign up and cancellation happen via a customer service chat window on their website, but if you choose sign up the chat has representatives/acceptance bots appear instantaneously to approve your sign up, whereas cancellation has a four hour queue and if you fail to wiggle your mouse every 30 seconds you get timed out.

You have to come up with a rule strict enough to defeat the corporate lawyers without making it so complicated or comprehensive that it puts significant compliance costs on smaller entities. Which is really hard to do, with the result that most of the rules that actually pass don't do that, which is why people get irked.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by BytesAndGears on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @09:42PM (#42447665)
As-is, it works very well in California. I had never experienced the resistance you imagined during the 3-4 years I lived in California, and regularly cancelled subscriptions that were notoriously hard in other states
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @01:22AM (#42448498)
California passed the click to cancel law this year. They passed a different law trying to make it easier to cancel subscriptions in 2018. The need for them to revisit it implies that the original one wasn't working.

Corporations act strategically. They typically don't immediately thwart new laws because the coalition that passed them is still intact and would try to do something about it. So they wait a minute, maybe take the time to buy some more legislators, before testing the fences again.

If people have forgotten about them by then you lose, and if people haven't forgotten about them by then, California passes the 2024 law and you lose the other way. Because they pass the new law in addition to rather than instead of the old one, even though the old one has stopped working, so you have a ratchet of ever-increasing compliance costs that also apply to all the companies that were never doing anything wrong to begin with but still have to hire lawyers to evaluate their activities against an entire bookshelf of rules to see if any of them require something they're not doing.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by LorenPechtel on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @10:16PM (#42447820)
No timers, no human interaction. And if the process takes time (there are times I think confirmations are warranted) once that's been done the cancellation takes place at the time of your original request. (Which you can screenshot.)
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @12:44AM (#42448387)
> No timers, no human interaction.

Is there something in the proposed rule that actually says this? And if so, what happens to the small business that does cancellations over email/phone and therefore requires human interaction?

> And if the process takes time (there are times I think confirmations are warranted) once that's been done the cancellation takes place at the time of your original request. (Which you can screenshot.)

The issue isn't that you care if the cancellation happens at 9AM or 9PM, it's that if you have to wait twelve hours to speak to a representative you give up before reaching the point you can make the request.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by nyczomg on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @07:27PM (#42446940)
You make the rule such that if you can sign up for a service on a website you can also cancel it said website. Now your hypothetical landscaping company is safe
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @01:14PM (#42453183)
Are they? A very basic website can easily have a form you can fill to sign up and all it does on the back end is send an email with the info to the proprietors. Even a generic mailto: or tel: link arguably makes it possible to sign up via the website, if tapping the link on your phone to send a message can directly result in a signup. To do the same thing for cancellations you'd have trouble avoiding the need for customer accounts to sign in and connect to a database to list what services they're currently subscribed to etc.

Otherwise people who signed up under the wife's name may try to cancel under the husband's name and you don't know who they are, neighbors who don't like the racket from the equipment see your website on the trucks and try to cancel the service even though they're not the customer because you have no authentication, people want to cancel because they've moved and give you their new address instead of the one they're subscribed under, people make ambiguous or incomplete requests and you don't know what they're asking to do. But if you have to contact them to clarify you're not satisfying the requirement that they can cancel via the website.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by foobarchu on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @07:10PM (#42456930)
A local business with a simple email form isn't going to sign you up without calling you to get more information and make sure you're a real person. That's already setting a precedent that you call them to cancel.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:34AM (#42468796)
> A local business with a simple email form isn't going to sign you up without calling you to get more information and make sure you're a real person.

What do you mean?

You go to the website, it has a form where you fill in your name and address and what service you want. They don't need any further information to send you an invoice. As soon as you pay it, landscapers come to your house and mow your lawn, and then each month you get another invoice until you cancel. That's a subscription; you signed up on the website using the form.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by account42 on Thursday December 19, 2024 @05:45AM (#42460253)
If you can have a signup form you can also have a cancel form.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Friday December 20, 2024 @01:23AM (#42468757)
If you have a sign up form it doesn't matter if they list the husband's name or the wife's name because either one is valid to sign up.

If you have a cancel form it does matter, because it has to match the one used to sign up or they don't know who you are, even if the customer doesn't remember which one they used. Or any number of other issues with matching the request to a subscription.

Humans can sort this out, but then you can't cancel on the website. Computers can also sort this out, but then you need sophisticated programming instead of a basic form. It's not symmetrical.

Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by account42 on Friday December 20, 2024 @05:03AM (#42469685)
Ah yes, let's allow businesses to employ dark patterns to profit at the expens of unwilling customers because otherwise they might need to put in a little effort to deal with hypothetical edge cases.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by AnthonyMouse on Sunday December 22, 2024 @10:10AM (#42486803)
The businesses using dark patterns are disproportionately large corporations. The ones that have trouble implementing a regulation which is airtight against corporate lawyer tricks are the small ones. That implies the obvious solution that you make the rules specific to the large corporations, e.g. ones with more than 1000 employees. But the rules typically aren't written to do that, and as long as that continues you're going to get resistance from the very large number of small businesses you're screwing.
Re:FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices by daveguy on Wednesday December 18, 2024 @03:06PM (#42454465)
I think the GP meant it's not controversial to make the fees more transparent or even ban them. The dish employees (C-suite to be clear) and investors are the only ones who like it.