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Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by throwup238 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:19AM (#42355556)
Assad wasn’t really a stabilizing force holding back worse players, he was a desperate despot just barely holding on to power thanks to a proxy war. Now the rest of the parties have a real chance to establishing a governing coalition. Syria has always been relatively secular and the rhetoric coming from the rebel side is in marked contrast to the usual pattern in the region. The most extremist group involved HTS has been surpsingly moderate in its stewardship of the Idlib governate.

There are reasons to interpret this as very good news: Iran and Russia no longer have enough resources to project power. Even with a warm water port and strategic position in the Mediterranean at stake, they just can’t prop up the regime anymore. I can’t help but think that two fewer regional powers meddling in Syrian affairs is nothing but a stabilizing force.

Almost seven million Syrian refugees might have the chance to return home and rebuild now. That’s great news.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by Caius-Cosades on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:54AM (#42355930)
>Almost seven million Syrian refugees might have the chance to return home and rebuild now. That’s great news.

Just because they might have chance to return home and rebuild doesn't mean that they will. Somalis arrived in the 90's, and they never returned back there except for vacations.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by m4rtink on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:01AM (#42355953)
Um, did Somalia actually get much better since then ?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by zdragnar on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:24AM (#42356056)
What indication is there that the forces opposed to Assad will make syria better? Everything I've seen points to Libya all over again.

There's not likely to be much to go back to for most of the people who've left.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by polski-g on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:01AM (#42356877)
The case for refugees isn't "their country is bad". It is "they are fleeing war".

If it was the former case, then approximately 7b people would be valid refugees.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by mmmmmbop on Sunday December 08, 2024 @10:02AM (#42357504)
Isn't there an ongoing civil war in Somalia?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by dyauspitr on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:11AM (#42355757)
The vast majority of Syrian refugees are going to try their best to stay in Europe because why would they want to leave to return to devastation and ruin (aside from forced deportation).
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by flunhat on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:20AM (#42355804)
This might surprise you, but most Syrian refugees didn't go to Europe. Turkey has 3 million, for example.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by inglor_cz on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:06AM (#42355979)
Plus a lot of people who tried to pass themselves off as Syrians aren't Syrians at all.

The asylum claim processing authorities were a bit overwhelmed, but soon learned to ask questions such as "can you tell me in which city you used to live, what was the name of the mayor, what was the closest mosque/church, your address, your school" etc. Few of the fake ones could answer such probing in a satisfying way.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:45AM (#42355895)
Most Syrians I know have unbounded love for their country and their people. You'd be surprised by the number of people who are not motivated purely by financial gain.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by bbor on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:39AM (#42355615)
Any regime change that involves freeing many thousands of women and children from prisons notorious for torture and mass-executions seems like a decent one! The future is uncertain, but it's not like "everyone chills out and gets into their hobbies" was an option -- it's gotta be one of the most war-ravaged places to exist in human history.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:52AM (#42355679)
Have you heard of a thing called, Islamic State? They had a thing for creative murder. Aside from the usual behadings, they came up with things like pushing homosexuals from buildings in the public and alike. They are also now free again.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:07AM (#42355742)
HTS has cut off ties with ALQaeda and IS since almost 10 years.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:14AM (#42355779)
A) in the open

B) they released all prisoners now. And at least some of them were part of ISIS.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:32AM (#42355858)
The majority of them (at the Saydenia) are political imprisoned citizens.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:46AM (#42355898)
Well, technical IS supporters (who did not participated in killings themself) are political imprisoned citizens as well.

The point is, that no matter what they did, they are all free now.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:23AM (#42356048)
What are you trying to state? There's a small number of citizen IS supporters and they're now free, along with all others who showed opposition to the regime. Ok. So what? Please don't use a general understanding of the patterns in the region to extrapolate wild takes when you don't know the specifics of each country and their people. Syrians are not Afghans are not Libyans are not whatever, as much as the west would like to portray them.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:31AM (#42356093)
"There's a small number of citizen IS supporters and they're now free"

If their numbers are so small, why was the IS a global problem then, a couple of years ago?

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by sabbaticaldev on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:42AM (#42356140)
10 years ago. They were a problem because they used American cars, clothes, weapons and media.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:46AM (#42356159)
Ah, so you claim they were a american controlled group?

While the US spend lots of effort on hunting them?

Keeping the flames high, to play firemen?

I don't think that there was a need of more flames, for that theory to be plausible. Occasionally some western weapons likely did found their ways towards IS as well, but they rather captured the bulk of it. Or do you have other sources?

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:24AM (#42356300)
Afghanistan is the obvious example, among many. Beyond that, American interventionism has fueled extremism in the region for decades. This is not a wild take, but one agreed upon by scholars.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by guerrilla on Sunday December 08, 2024 @07:27AM (#42356744)
Oh did the terrorists tell you that they aren't terrorists anymore?

Seriously, do you also believe North Korea is a People's Republic or that the Soviet Union consisted of a literal union of soviets?

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by dralley on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:49AM (#42357122)
I mean, they've literally gone to war against both ISIS and Al-Qaeda. You don't have to trust them exactly but it's not like there's no grounds to believe they're at least not going to be ISIS.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by guerrilla on Sunday December 08, 2024 @10:34AM (#42357702)
I'm not sure why you think that means they aren't terrorists. Al-qaeda and ISIS have also been at war for a decade. Does that make one of them any less terrible than they have always been?

It's not about trust. We have enormous amounts of evidence from all human rights organizations monitoring the situation. You may not understand this but the entire war was filmed. You can just go look up who they are, what they believe and what they have done to people. They advertised it themselves for the majority of their career.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by dralley on Sunday December 08, 2024 @10:39AM (#42357722)
I said no such thing. I also wouldn't dispute that the PKK are also "terrorists".

I still think it's pretty clear that there can be some hierarchy within that category. HTS and the Kurds are less evil than the Taliban, which is less evil than Al-Qaeda, which is less evil than ISIS.

Like you said, there is plenty of history to look at here. HTS has run Idlib for years and they have done nothing that compares to the likes of ISIS. Maybe that will change if they consolidate total power, but neither of us have any evidence to state definitively what will happen. There are plenty of reasons to be either pessimistic or optimistic.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by guerrilla on Sunday December 08, 2024 @10:54AM (#42357802)
I misunderstood then. My bad.

> I still think it's pretty clear that there can be some hierarchy within that category. HTS and the Kurds are less evil than the Taliban, which is less evil than Al-Qaeda, which is less evil than ISIS.

This I can agree with for sure. There are lesser evils and a hierarchy. I think the hierarchy also depends on the situation on the ground for who it's tolerable to support at a specific time. If it would have taken HTS as much bloodshed to get to where they are today as it did Assad to originally regain control, then I think it would less favorable than what actually happened, for example.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by codedokode on Sunday December 08, 2024 @12:14PM (#42358344)
"Soviet Union" means the Union of (16) Soviet Socialistic Republics. It's an abbreviation. The republics originally were parts of Russian Empire, so their status was raised, at least nominally.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by IndrekR on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:44PM (#42359776)
Quite a few ex-soviet states, who were independent countries before being occupied by USSR, will not agree with this.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by guerrilla on Tuesday December 10, 2024 @05:01AM (#42375393)
You understand what I mean. Nothing was run by soviets. Lenin stopped that immediately.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by orwin on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:21AM (#42355810)
I mean, unlike another nation south of them, at least for now, they didn't destroy Christian churches (the opposite in fact, rebel-controled territory rebuilt Christian churches), and let Christian orphanage/school stand without expropriation under false pretense.

How it will develop has yet to be seen, but I'm hopeful.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by aaa_aaa on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:19AM (#42356034)
How is this an answer to the op's statement?. Assad was a war criminal just like his father. Remember the Hama 1982. Son followed dad by killing thousands, torturing and displaced millions. West will support and try a rosy picture of so called secular totalitarians as long as it fits to their agenda.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:29AM (#42356085)
It is an answer to the claim, that freeing everyone is always to be considered a good thing.

Freeing all the political prisoners, yes, I support that. I am not a fan of Assad.

But also all the IS militants who while being free, made a competition, of who can be the most cruel?

I am sceptical. And also about where those people will end up. And they are more than a handful.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jajko on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:38AM (#42356125)
Hamas has been killing homosexuals in Palestine by throwing them from buildings long before any form of ISIS existed, plenty of stuff on internet. When its written in holy books you only need few sadistic rednecks for such things to happen, regardless if place or religion.

Lets not get too emotional in these discussions, facts are enough.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by skissane on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:07AM (#42356474)
> Hamas has been killing homosexuals in Palestine by throwing them from buildings long before any form of ISIS existed, plenty of stuff on internet.

That's misinformation which has been debunked:

https://factcheck.afp.com/doc.afp.com.347B339

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-...

To quote Wikipedia:

> Homosexuality is not a capital offence in the Gaza Strip or elsewhere in Palestine.[54][55] The laws against homosexual behavior in Palestine[d] are a relic of the British and Ottoman rule in Palestine; they specify prison sentences of 10 to 14 years.[54][55] There is no evidence that these British colonial-era laws are actually enforced in Gaza.[54]

> Reports of extra-judicial killings of LGBT people in Palestine have circulated, without being confirmed. Sources such as the news agency Reuters, the news outlet The New Arab, and the NGO Human Rights Watch, characterise many of these reports as misinformation: the stories are exaggerated, oversimplified, or misattributions of events that occurred elsewhere.[56] Examples of this include:

> Two members of Palestinian nationalist militant groups were accused of espionage and killed by their comrades in situations that included rumours about homosexuality or bisexuality.[57][58]

> During the Israel–Hamas war, a video described as "Hamas executes people by throwing them off a roof of a building!" circulated on social media. Some derivatives of the meme claimed the men were executed for being gay.[56] The video, however, was from 2015 and not from Palestine.[56] A July 2015 report from Al Arabiya, included identical images and states that they were originally shared by the so-called Islamic State, and showed the execution of four gay men in Fallujah, Iraq.[56]

> In February 2016, the Al-Qassam Brigades (the militant wing of the Hamas movement) executed Mahmoud Ishtiwi, the commander of Al-Qassam's Zeitoun Battalion.[59] The alleged offences were described evasively, the stated reason was Arabic: تجاوزاته السلوكية والأخلاقية التي أقر بها, lit. 'for behavioral and moral violations, to which he confessed',[58] which some western news media interpreted as a euphemism for homosexual activity.[60][61] Local sources clarified that Shteiwi was convicted of spying for Israel.[62] The Qassam Brigades alleged that Ishtiwi had been executed by firing squad,[63][58] but people who saw his body before burial alleged that he might have died in custody and been shot after death.[64][58]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_for_homosex...

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by aguaviva on Sunday December 08, 2024 @12:51PM (#42358653)
Plenty of stuff on internet.

There's plenty of "stuff on internet" about piles of beheaded babies on Oct 7, too.

Links to reasonably trustable reports needed, please. Otherwise what you're saying is just more "stuff".

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by HideousKojima on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:31AM (#42355851)
>Any regime change that involves freeing many thousands of women and children from prisons notorious for torture and mass-executions seems like a decent one!

Overthrowing Gaddafi didn't make Libya a better place. Now it has open air slave markets, amongst other loveliness.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by MoreMoore on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:06AM (#42355978)
People here are extremely naive and ignorant. Assad was awful, but it's leaving a power vacuum that will be filled by awful people too. People are going to continue to suffer after this.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by threeseed on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:04AM (#42355969)
Slavery was common place during the Gaddafi era as well.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by inglor_cz on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:12AM (#42356000)
American education tends to concentrate on American history of slavery, so many American are ignorant about just how widespread slavery was/is in the Islamic world and how many Muslims until today consider it a regular institution explicitly endorsed by God.

I certainly wouldn't like to be a black manual worker in any Arab country. Even if you aren't a formally legally enslaved person, you will be treated as one.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jajko on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:41AM (#42356136)
Or any other place from Asia, ie nepalis or philippinos are treated absolutely horribly in many rich middle east places. That culture, barring exceptional ethical individuals, has nothing in common with modern western values.
[dead]
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by throwup238 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:12AM (#42355764)
Sednaya wasn’t a regular civilian prison. It was run by the military to house and torture political prisoners and anyone the government considered a “rebel.” Its notoriety long predates the civil war.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by nozzlegear on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:25AM (#42355825)
Just to be clear, you're talking about prisons like Sednaya, the infamous "Human Slaughterhouse?" The one where Assad imprisoned thousands of political opponents, journalists, military deserters, Muslim minorities and civilians, and then systematically tortured and executed those people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sednaya_Prison

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by selivanovp on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:35AM (#42356113)
I do remember the same shit promoted when Gaddafi was toppled.

And then Western mass media stopped showing news from "freed" Libya. Because, you know, public executions and human slave markets kinda not something, their population should know about, unless it's done by "bad guys".

[dead]
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by 7952 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:25AM (#42356308)
It is curious that you don't mention the fact that the Sha was in power due to an American/British coup that deposed a democratic government to protect oil interests.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jampekka on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:00AM (#42356208)
And then liberals in UK and USA joined hands with Islamists to overthrow the Mossadeq government.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by cladopa on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:55AM (#42356181)
Please don't use the word "liberal" to refer to something outside the US, because the concept of "liberal" only exist there.

This concept of neoMarxist sympathies of educated people(white collar workers) in urban areas and Ivy Leagues, that focus extremely on sex and wokeism, that concept only exist in the US.

In Europe "liberal" means he who follows economic liberalism, that is being part of the "right".

In Asia and Middle East is even weirder. Iran is probably the place of Earth that had more Empires in its History. Nationalism, ethnic identity and religion is way more important than anything else, specially on Sha's time. If you call communists people you are referring to Chinese land type of communism instead of industrial, very different from Europe or the US one.

I had a great time skiing on Iran back on the day.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by foooorsyth on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:03AM (#42355725)
>Assad wasn’t really a stabilizing force

Questionable statement.

Syria has (had) a secular government that allowed Sunnis, Alawites, Christians, Druze Muslims, twelvers, and Kurds to live there. The status quo for the region is theocratic iron fist of a particular Islamic denomination, with all others persecuted.

Not to mention, Assad is a Ba’athist (as was Sadam) which by definition is all about Arab unity.

Which Sunni warlord group should we hand the country to now? Do you think things will be better? Can you name a single Syrian political figure or interest group (don’t Google!) that you would propose lead the country? Be honest with yourself.

>Almost seven million Syrian refugees might have he chance to return home and rebuild now

They’re not going back.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:09AM (#42355745)
> a secular government that allowed ... to live there.

"live" is a strong word to use there.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by dyauspitr on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:13AM (#42355776)
Syria wasn’t a particularly shitty place before all this began in 2013.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:28AM (#42355841)
It was under a repressive dictatorship with crumbling infrastructure. Sure, it can always be worse, but the people deserve and are capable of so much better.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by MoreMoore on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:08AM (#42355987)
They do, absolutely. But Assad's government being toppled doesn't mean they will get better. There's not even any hope of it.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:17AM (#42356027)
> There's not even any hope of it.

I love it when online commenters display more confidence in their opinions than experts in the field. Really shows how much value their opinion has.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jampekka on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:47AM (#42356163)
What experts expect Syria to get better? The rebels are led by a rebranding of al-Nusra Front which is widely designated as an islamist terrorist organization.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by throwup238 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:05AM (#42356223)
The rebels aren’t led by any one group and HTS only has control over some northern provinces. There’s at least four major alliances in play between dozens of rebel groups at the moment, and there’s no one frontrunner to take over.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by sabbaticaldev on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:39AM (#42356126)
“experts in the field” are a great excuse to manipulate public opinion
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:51AM (#42355917)
"Sure, it can always be worse"

Yes, I would argue the islamic state was indeed worse. And so far I see nothing preventing them or a similar force taking hold again. I mean turkey is the moderating factor here and turkey under Erdogan has gone the authorian islamic way since a while.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:18AM (#42356030)
Drawing analogies between Erdogan and the IS is wild.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jajko on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:46AM (#42356155)
Well his son made hundreds of millions / billions from selling directly oil from ISIS held lands, since nobody else wanted to deal with them. His daughter personally built and supervised hospitals in Turkey specifically built to treat wounded ISIS fighters. These are verified public informations, although they obviously deny it.

Erdogan is as much pro-ISIS as one can be. Maybe just a political game during complex conflict to fight against US-supported kurds at all costs, maybe not. We don't know.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:25AM (#42356065)
Where did I do that?

I said I am sceptical for the outcome, if Erdogan is the moderating factor. Or do you think, he cares much for human rights and democracy?

That is far from saying he is like IS.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by AngaraliTurk on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:31AM (#42356332)
I was giving you the benefit of doubt all this time, but your comments about my country confirms to me that you're misinformed. For all I hate Erdoğan and his attempts to undermine democracy, and I want to see him gone sooner or later, Turkey is as much an Islamic authoritarian state as USA is a Christian authoritarian one under the rule of Trump. There seems to be a tendency to exaggerate the realities on the ground for some reason, and I suspect this is fueled by bots.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:57AM (#42356434)
I said going the authorian islamic way, not that you are already a califat. Sorry for the missunderstanding, I am aware that turkey is all in all still quite democratic and secular and we seem to both not like the direction Erdogan is heading. My point was, Erdogans influence over the SNA is not comforting me.

Btw. I just read, a pro SNA news source:

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/russia-astana-format-meeti...

It seems the war will continue.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:31AM (#42356547)
Why are you relating authoritarianism with "Islamic way" or even the Caliphates? I've never seen anyone make this claim before, which is, to be honest, quite absurd.

Edit: Also your linked article no longer reflects the current stance of Russia.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @06:39AM (#42356579)
That link I gave is propaganda BS. It claims the syrian army gave the terrorists( SDF) control over the new areas, while in reality they fought with US support against iranian and syrian regime militias. So that iran could not send support without fighting their way through it, maybe a turning point in this war.

It was just to illustrate that Erdogans goals are not peace, after Assad is gone.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:26AM (#42356991)
That's all well and good. Could you please reply to my other question? I'm very curious where this notion is coming from.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @09:34AM (#42357348)
The sentence "I said going the authorian islamic way,", implies that there is an "authoritarian Islamic" way. What is that? Because it sounds like you're implying that the religion has intrinsic authoritarian aspects to it.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @11:07AM (#42357877)
"Because it sounds like you're implying that the religion has intrinsic authoritarian aspects to it."

No, it implies the focus on the authorian aspects of Islam, just like certain groups in the US would like a authorian christian rule of law.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lukan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @09:15AM (#42357269)
The claim that Erdogan is more open towards being a sultan and open towards more influence of Islam into the government?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by kwerab on Sunday December 08, 2024 @09:47AM (#42357421)
The issue is that in the West people hear one of Erdogan's pep-talk speeches against Israel on CNN and assume that he means everything.

They don't know that Turkey has been delivering oil to Israel all the time and that Israel is in favor of the current events in Syria.

If all of Turkey, the U.S. and Israel support the Syrian rebels, we may assume that the goal is to install a U.S. friendly government (perhaps supervised by Turkey) and have more buffer states against Iran.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by ssijak on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:23AM (#42355817)
Yes, it must be much better now after all the devastation. Same with Lybia, much better place now, no?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by j_maffe on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:30AM (#42355845)
Why do you insist that it will go the way of Libya? The rebels are calling for a peaceful and democratic transition of the government and the protection of all minorities. They've stopped using Islamist rhetoric for almost 10 years. This is as good of a regime change in Syria as it gets.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by blub on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:00AM (#42355950)
There is no counter-example of thriving democracies developed after western regime change projects. On the other hand, there’s Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by throwup238 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:14AM (#42356011)
> There is no counter-example of thriving democracies developed after western regime change projects.

Except Germany and Japan, the third and fourth largest economies in the world…

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by grumple on Sunday December 08, 2024 @07:58AM (#42356864)
Also Italy and Austria.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by roenxi on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:49AM (#42357129)
If the examples springing to mind were in 1945 then that says a lot about how US efforts are going in the modern era. There is no real comparison to how the US handled defeated powers in WWII and how the State Department handles regime changes from ... I want to say the 60s onwards. All the people involved in Germany or Japan's reconstitution are dead (Ed Deming, we miss you; heros of the peace are the most impressive ones).

Which is a shame because the 1950s strategy of investment and prosperity made the world much better and the modern strategy of destabilisation tends to make it worse.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by Apocryphon on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:26PM (#42359652)
The modern Balkans seem better now than they were at the early ‘90s.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by Apocryphon on Sunday December 08, 2024 @02:25PM (#42359643)
Tunisia
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by ssijak on Monday December 09, 2024 @12:15PM (#42368053)
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by ssijak on Monday December 09, 2024 @07:09AM (#42365459)
I don't know what the future will bring, I said it in retrospect of the last 15 years.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by tptacek on Sunday December 08, 2024 @03:25AM (#42355826)
That feels like a claim that might be news to the residents of Madaya, Yarmouk, Douma, and Idlib, right?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by lossolo on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:19AM (#42356033)
It's naive to think that peace and stability will suddenly prevail in Syria. The situation will likely follow the Libya model: total chaos, worse than when Gaddafi ruled. HTS are wolves in sheep's clothing, and they wear this disguise only to convince the world that there is no need to form another anti-terrorist coalition. They learned lessons from the collapse of ISIS. All the organizations that once had a common enemy in Assad will now seek to seize power and begin fighting one another.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by throwup238 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:45AM (#42356154)
It’s equally cynical to presume that it won’t. People can only tolerate so much violence and this civil war has been propped up by external powers for over a decade.

Regardless, HTS isn’t the group that captured the capital so I don’t know why everyone is so focused on them right now. They got the ball rolling with their November 27 offensive and captured Hama but they’re still restricted to the northern provinces.

While on the topic of ISIS, I don’t think it’s the rebels we should be worried about. ISIS would never have become what it was without the former Ba’athist officers from Saddam’s regime building out its command structure and military. It’s the disaffected Ba’athists from Assad’s regime that we should be worried about.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by adamsb6 on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:37AM (#42356117)
Saddam Hussein was a brutal despot who also kept his own country’s factions from waging war on one another.

It didn’t turn out well when we took him off the board.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by rswail on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:15AM (#42356936)
You might remember that the US royally fucked up the process after taking him off the board.

Both Syria and Lebanon have managed, in the past, to work out a way for their various regions and tribal/ethnic groups to co-exist.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jpmoral on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:44AM (#42356149)
Wasn't a large part of that caused by the de-Baathification of the government and security forces?
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by dralley on Sunday December 08, 2024 @08:27AM (#42356993)
And Iranian / Syrian funded militias.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jampekka on Sunday December 08, 2024 @04:40AM (#42356133)
And the same in Libya.
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by DiscourseFan on Sunday December 08, 2024 @05:26AM (#42356310)
The Libyan war is just some bullshit to keep oil prices low, its very close to being a manufactured situation
Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by jampekka on Sunday December 08, 2024 @07:54AM (#42356847)
Same could be argued about the last 100 years of the region. West doesn't give a shit about these countries as long as they keep selling oil (in dollars).

West propped and props up Islamism (and other tyrannies) to prevent nationalisations of oil resources. Seems to be mostly working as intended.

Re:Syrian government falls in end to 50-year rule of Assad f... by southernplaces7 on Monday December 09, 2024 @01:52PM (#42369211)
>It didn’t turn out well when we took him off the board.

No? The post-invasion process turned into a simmering insurgency followed by a loose civil war, but since then and so far, Iraq has stabilized into a more or less functional state in which investment is growing and living standards are again moving upwards. I don't see how the automatic response of "it didn't turn out well" applies. The shaky morality of a historical decision (invasion and toppling Saddam in this case) doesn't necessarily translate to a bad outcome in the long run.