Not only that but also hurting all others kinds of flex time and smarter commuting, even if you're awake.

At one office job, we regularly worked from home around 9-10am and would only commute after the morning rush hour faded away.

In an age of 24/7 SLAs the credibility of core hours is being stretched thin.

Sounds like a retro topic.

Move standup to 10:30am so Todd can sleep in

Often it's a boss proving they're in charge by setting the times.

It's also a handy way to keep raises small. Oh you are being a human and we don't give raises to people who are human. Meets expectations, 2% raise.

If that was the retro topic, we're already off to a bad start. You're making a judgement before we even started retro.

sleep in

    to sleep until later in the morning than you usually do

Read it like this: Usually people don't wake up that late. But Tooooodd likes to sleep in, so now everyone's gotta interrupt their workflows at 10:30 just for Todd. Discuss!

So do it just before lunch

That isn't the point. The point is the judgemental "question" type thing.

But also that is 2:30 p.m. for the other two guys, i.e. prime "still caffeinated and in the zone" time ;)

I'm completely ignorant here, but my understanding is that Scrum is (perhaps at a high, reductive level) a software workflow/collaboration tool. Genuinely curious how that ends up being used to moralize about acceptable sleep patterns.

If you don't show up at a particular time in the morning then you're a horrible person and not a Team Player. Every day, year after year.

Good teams make it after everyone would have reasonably absorbed their coffee. But some teams get pushed earlier. Particularly if there are people in EST, CST, and definitely if you've got people in India, where 9 am PST is when you should be reading your kids bedtime stories.

That seems less to do with scrum and more to do with salaried work culture where you're expected to attend meetings.

Scrum doesn't dictate any particular time for team meetings. But if you choose to work on a geographically distributed then someone will be inconvenienced regardless of the chosen methodology. You're not special.

I mean, this is just life no? You have to be places, and be responsible for things, even when you would prefer not to be?

manager here, how old are you? parents of school age children (like half the workforce) are drinking coffee by 6:30 local. overseas workers are getting paid foreign salaries, they understand the deal they made. its the under-26yo crowd who is up till 1am watching netflix and can’t get to bed on time. what categories am i missing that can’t attend a meeting at 9?

CEO here - check yourself. The role /you/ were hired for requires essential social skills such as understanding that some people are night owls and some are morning people. The category you're missing is the one that will naturally wake up later than you.

Also, women require more sleep than men on average.

Google tells me:

    > Women need on average 11 additional minutes of sleep each night.

Hmm, not much.

YTA. I'm 30 and i have to waste my time in the evening because i do not get tired before midnight except when I'm physically exhausted. Which typically never happens in a office job. I can go to bed earlier but then i will just lay wake until my sleep time.

SO has it reverse, she wakes up at 7-8 am even at the weekend and is unable to get back to sleep.

46 here with school-age children. I'm gonna disagree. I realize we're an outlier because we homeschool, but our kids wake up on their own, happy and eager for the day. Too often, I see and read about kids being dragged out of bed and sitting at bus stops while it's still dark outside. All so the working class can be at their desks by 8am? Never agreed with that.

I'm still a night owl. 12am is the baseline. 1am is not uncommon. 2 or 3am is occasional. I can attend a 9am. I prefer 10 or later. Most of my team does as well, and they all rise earlier than I do.

Under-26yo crowd here who was late to stand up every in person day this week to confirm this tracks

Maybe the bigger question is why have a daily meeting in the first place?

Makes me wonder how 'async first' companies operate (I think gitlab is like that)

Zapier is/was (I’ve not been there for a bit over a year) more or less async first. We still had meetings, but they weren’t supposed to be the default.

Basically for status updates, you’d just put it in Slack. We had a bot that prompted us. We did have a weekly meeting, but it was at a reasonable time for everyone.

A team I was on while there had some APAC people, and we even managed to have meetings with them, by scheduling them in afternoon hours for the U.S. Worked out pretty well.

I'm in an async company and team, we practice scrum too. Half the team in the US, half in Europe.

First of all, the standup isn't daily, it's twice a week. People still miss it for reasons (kids, doctors appointments, ...), and it's just... accepted. There's a general culture of trust.

Other than that, Slack threads go on twice as verbose and long as in other places I've worked. There's a general deluge of pull requests going around certain times of the day and they're always reviewed within an acceptable time frame. In between delivering PR's you simply pick up other work, we're all seniors that know how to work independently, I'm not sure if you could achieve the same thing with a bunch of juniors mixed in unless they have the right attitude as well.

This is not normal, your company culture is unhealthy. You should not have to put yourself up with this.

Having a morning meeting is pretty normal

And pretty reasonable if people are plus or minus a few timezones. Working cross-continent is absolutely brutal.

They are not talking about a morning meeting. Read it again.

Standups?

What about standups? Are you implying that having to be somewhere at a certain time in the morning impedes your ability to go to sleep at a reasonable time so you can get a healthy amount of sleep?

There you go moralizing about acceptable patterns of sleep.

Crepuscular and nocturnal predators require tribes of humans to have some number of members who are tuned to be either awake before sunrise or awake long after sunset. Without people with genes to go bed late and wake up late we wouldn't be here having this conversation.

In modern society the former are lionized and the latter are villified as making bad choices.

I can pick when I go to sleep and wake, I've worked 3rd shift, 9 - 5 and resturant hours with no issue.

Wouldn't a tribe that is able to do as I can have the greatest evolutionary advantage and thus outcompete the tribes requiring specialization like you describe?

Lucky you. Whatever I do, if I'm forced to be out of bed before 8 AM, I'm going to be completely useless for few days. Usually I wake up around 9:30 to get good sleep. And whatever I do, I'm simply unable to go sleep earlier than midnight, even if I lay down, I just can't sleep for hours. It's 0:29 where I live and I'm just turning on Netflix after a failed try at sleeping - even though I'm pretty tired as I didn't sleep enough yesterday.

> It's 0:29 where I live and I'm just turning on Netflix after a failed try at sleeping

I'm sympathetic to your situation -- but with all due respect, this would seem to be a strategy with a vanishingly small likelihood of benefit.

You would be wrong. Just trying to sleep doesn't work for me either, but putting on a distraction for 15 minutes helps a lot.

I am not aware of any mode of watching Netflix that is constrained to 15 minutes.

"Trying" to sleep is also doomed to failure, of course.

Personally, what works best for me is modeling solutions to issues in projects (work or otherwise).

I originally tried this, hoping for the benefit of "sleeping on a problem". I don't think it's been particularly successful for that (though it could be subtly so, I guess), but it has about a 90% success rate for inducing sleep within 15 minutes. :)

My solution and yours might be the same thing (distraction from the goal of sleep), but I'd worry about the stimulation of video, the light from the screen, disturbing partners, etc. And also that I might get interested, and stay up for hours instead (this is my failure mode for reading before sleep).

Different things work for different people.

Thinking about projects prevents me from sleeping. It's the surest way to keep me up with my mind racing for a few more hours. If it works for you, great!

The "mode" for watching Netflix for 15 minutes is turn it on, watch for 15 minutes, turn it off. I won't claim it works for everyone, but it does help settle my mind at night.

I know that any code I write before around 9:45 in the morning will be seen as regrettable and rewritten at some point in the next few days. So the earlier I sit down to write code the more rework there will be. This is somewhat less true if my adrenaline is high from being smacked with production issues first thing in the morning, but adrenaline is not a sustainable strategy.

Unfortunately, not everyone has quite the same natural flexibility you describe. "Shift worker syndrome" has been known for decades, though a fortunate subset of people just seem immune.

You'd think so, and yet apparently it didn't happen - or it's not heritable, in which case we're stuck with it.

Yes. Isn't that obvious? Everyone has different natural sleep patterns, some have later cronotypes. Meetings set too early in the day for your body's preferred time to be asleep will result in having to wake up with an alarm to attend them.

My team moved our daily standup later in the day to accommodate my delayed sleep phase and it's been extremely helpful to getting a full night's uninterrupted sleep.

I can get into my bed at a certain time, I can put my head on my pillow, but I can't force sleep.

The same traits that make me good at emergency situations and deep work make me lousy for early bedtime. I have some coping mechanisms now but there were years where I had to go to bed exhausted to get to sleep. And some days that’s 10:30, others that’s 2:30.

What a pathetic and unreasonable message.

complain about specific scrummers (even many), not about scrum.

like: complain about gunmen, not guns.

methodologies and weapons do not kill people. people kill people.

that said, here's a riddle:

q: what is the difference between a methodologist and a terrorist?

a: you can negotiate with a terroris, but not with a methodologist.

also, what nradov said, here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42143002

Daily scrums are a stupid waste of time and completely unnecessary unless your team doesn’t know what they’re doing or are unable to coordinate, and if either of those is true then you have the wrong team or management and Scrums won’t save you anyway. It’s mostly crap designed to allow consultants from McKinsey to charge your company big bucks for “efficiency implementation”.