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Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bastawhiz on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:36PM (#41613982)
Am I missing something? This feels like such a bizarre hill to die on. He's upset that a company offers hosting of his software with a default setting changed. I guess, don't have that setting then?

There's no mention of the source code being changed or custom patches being applied. So the allegation that it's "something that they’ve chopped up, hacked, butchered to look like WordPress" is maximally overblown. Unless, again, I'm completely missing something.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by Kye on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:39PM (#41613998)
Automattic's own managed WordPress platform severely restricts features all the way up to the top plan. I guess it's okay for them to do it.

edit: I am referring to WordPress.com which is the offering comparable to WP Engine.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by donohoe on Saturday September 21, 2024 @11:11PM (#41614362)
I think you need to give more context.

I’ve been a WP VIP customer at various points and I don’t think this is true as a general statement.

It really depends on context.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by snowwrestler on Saturday September 21, 2024 @11:18PM (#41614385)
I think they are referring to WordPress.com.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by n3storm on Sunday September 22, 2024 @12:56AM (#41614723)
Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com

Also there has been issues for years when trying to move away and transfer __your__ domain to another provider.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by desas on Monday September 23, 2024 @09:18AM (#41625772)
> Cannot upload own themes or plugins at WordPress.com

You can, just not on the free plan, or the two cheapest paid plans.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by wmf on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:31PM (#41614220)
Matt is mad that WP Engine is profiting without contributing much back. This "it's not WordPress" seems like a fig leaf on top of that concern.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bastawhiz on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:41PM (#41614256)
It's his right to feel like that, but it's also WP Engine's right under the WordPress source's license to do what they're doing.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bbarnett on Sunday September 22, 2024 @02:18AM (#41614971)
As a devil's advocate sort of thing...

For no reason I can give you the finger, scream obscenities at you, and there are no legal ramifications.

Was I wrong?

The legal side is not the end all.

Otherwise, why is anyone complaining about Meta's data mining? About the cost of epipens?

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bastawhiz on Sunday September 22, 2024 @08:04AM (#41616474)
The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not.

In fact, Mullenweg says WP Engine does contribute back, but not enough, and tries to justify it by saying they've "hacked up" WordPress. The latter statement has no legs to stand on (at least without real evidence). How much is enough? Should WP Engine be fixing bugs that don't affect their customers? Exerting influence by throwing contributors at wordpress to make upstream improvements that benefit WP Engine customers? I suspect if WP Engine did what Mullenweg is indirectly demanding, we'd get a "no not like that!" post.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bbarnett on Sunday September 22, 2024 @02:06PM (#41618768)
The cost of epipens affects someone's ability to not die. Whether WP Engine contributes back to WordPress enough does not.

My example also cited two non-life threatening issues, and discussed legal vs morality.

You have not addressed this point, so I'll be more direct about it. Doing something legal doesn't make it OK. In fact doing something legal does not imply right or wrong.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by nsonha on Sunday September 22, 2024 @12:41AM (#41614674)
But the wording makes it like it's about revisions.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by JoBrad on Sunday September 22, 2024 @07:12AM (#41616255)
And the title
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bluevaletines on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:39PM (#41619877)
Matt is moving the goalposts of what he’s considering “contribution.”

WP Engine has been the top sponsor of all WordCamps for years.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by shortformblog on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:44PM (#41614027)
The linked video offers the full context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnI-QcVSwMU

(Relevant section starting around 10:14)

I think he’s using this as one prominent example of overall harm to the space.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by benjaminwootton on Saturday September 21, 2024 @11:15PM (#41614371)
If this is their worst complaint about one of WPs biggest hosts then he isn’t doing too badly.

I’m not sure if he’s still involved, but the founder Jason Cohen seems very nice and down to earth. I’m sure he would turn the setting back on in 5 minutes if Matt came knocking and this is all there was to it.

WP Engines whole reason for being is that open source Wordpress is a car crash to manage. The hacks, the spam, the broken addons on upgrades are in a league of their own. They’ve probably done more to help the platform than hinder it.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by fakedang on Sunday September 22, 2024 @02:43AM (#41615076)
Didn't Jason Cohen sell to private equity?

Highly recommend reading his smartbear blogs.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bluevaletines on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:37PM (#41619864)
Wasn’t Automattic’s last round led by BlackRock?
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by addicted on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:42PM (#41614012)
Yes, you seem to have the argument backwards.

The argument isn’t that “turning off saving revision data” is terrible. That’s not the problem or the argument.

The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can.

The “default setting” is an example of this behavior.

Also, calling turning off all historical revision data as just “changing a default setting” in a content management system is disingenuous to say the least.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by blackoil on Saturday September 21, 2024 @11:08PM (#41614350)
Why open source the software, if you don't want others to use it?
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by dathos on Sunday September 22, 2024 @12:46AM (#41614691)
What a dense thing to say, have you read the article?
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by softwaredoug on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:57PM (#41614080)
Matt Mullenweg, author of this post, is CEO of Automattic, a for profit company with valuation in the billions. Largely raised from private capital
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bastawhiz on Saturday September 21, 2024 @09:47PM (#41614044)
> The argument is that private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can.

Then why isn't WordPress.com completely obliterating WP Engine in sales? Surely if the argument is that WP Engine is bad and cutting corners, and they have their own first party commercial offering, that first party offering is so good that nobody thinks twice about the private equity hosted version?

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by fragmede on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:03PM (#41614120)
Because the market is stupid. Worse is better, planned obsolescence, clickbait, fast fashion; the free market is full of failures. It's not good enough for a competitor to Google's search engine to be 30% better, it needs to be 10x better in order to compete.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bastawhiz on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:53PM (#41614300)
Your argument is perhaps unintentionally implying that WP Engine's offering is 10x better. WP Engine is the competitor. It's ridiculous to suggest WordPress.com wouldn't be the default, obvious choice for hosted/managed WordPress.

Put in B2B terms, this is as if AWS only sold managed ElasticSearch and they did it well enough that it forced Elastic to change their licensing (as happened in real life). But of course, WordPress can't change their license because it's too ubiquitous and doing so would be an obvious, massive backfire.

If WordPress.com was truly competitive, this whole issue wouldn't even be a discussion. It's middling and expensive. And Mullenweg is upset that people are willing to pay for essentially Lightsail-but-it's-just-WordPress over his own offering.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by technion on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:25PM (#41614200)
In this case the market is not stupid. WordPress.com's managed offering is limited enough that most web developers make valid recommendations to avoid it. Wpengine works a lot more the way a WordPress user wants it.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bad_user on Sunday September 22, 2024 @01:16AM (#41614781)
> "It's not good enough for a competitor to Google's search engine to be 30% better, it needs to be 10x better in order to compete."

This may be so, but there is no competition that's even 10% better than Google.

Competition may win on some non-functional requirements, such as privacy (hardly), or UI controls (e.g., silencing certain domains), but that pales in comparison with Google's local search results. And most competition people talk about are just shells around Bing. There are very few independent, general purpose search engines, i.e., Yandex, Baidu, Brave Search. And Google is still the best.

And yes, Google's index has been going to shit, due to all the SEO spam and the content farms, but so has everyone else.

You made an assertion. Show me the Google competitor that's 30% better and you may have a point. There are none, so the market may be more rational than you give it credit for ;-)

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by darby_nine on Sunday September 22, 2024 @03:04AM (#41615158)
> This may be so, but there is no competition that's even 10% better than Google.

It's been more than a decade since google results were distinguishable from bing results. Both spam you with commercial crap.

> This may be so, but there is no competition that's even 10% better than Google.

Kagi is much better than google. I have no clue what their baseline search quality is like, but I don't care because I can customize it enough to far outstrip quality that google can provide as google refuses to provide (or has actively disabled) the tools necessary to make search useful, like allowing the user to blacklist domains against all their searches or prioritize certain domains. Which is dumb, because how could they know what sort of results i value if they refuse to ask?

What we really need is an engine that excludes all commercial results, and an option to exclude sites with ads. That'd be a goldmine.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by Diti on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:49AM (#41615646)
> how could [Google] know what sort of results i value if they refuse to ask?

They don’t care about the end-user of their search engines. You are not the client – advertisers are. All Google care about is to present search results that maximize revenue for sponsored results.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by bad_user on Sunday September 22, 2024 @09:25AM (#41616905)
We must live in a different world because for me, Bing's results have always been completely unusable. As a consequence, DuckDuckGo's results as well, although I understand that it must work for certain types of users located in certain countries; otherwise I can't understand how anyone would use it.

I just logged into Kagi, and searched for “restaurants”. Kagi can see my country because their UI says so, yet it gave me “top 10 restaurants in Groningen Province” (Netherlands), as the first result and the second result was “top 10 restaurants in Barcelona”. And I don't live in the Netherlands or Spain.

I also searched for a programming question, an issue I recently had, with the query “slick breaks binary compatibility”. Google gave me fresh discussions describing the issue, whereas Kagi gave me a GitHub issue from 2021 that described issues with the previous major version.

I did not cherry-pick these searches.

---

Speaking of, Kagi doesn't have their own index, they just use Bing's API, enhanced with results from other sources, much like what DuckDuckGo does; and like DDG they tend to be disingenuous about it.

https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...

What in the world are people paying for is a complete mystery to me, but YMMV.

---

So, again, I'm asking for that one competitor that's 30% better than Google.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by Marsymars on Tuesday September 24, 2024 @12:25AM (#41633099)
Conversely, I often find Google's local focus to be counter-productive when I want to search for the most relevant sources in the world (for physical things) or on the internet (for virtual things) and Google insists on giving me local examples of the physical thing or local providers of the virtual thing, neither of which I have interest in.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by carlhjerpe on Sunday September 22, 2024 @09:56AM (#41617098)
Kagi is better at searching internationally or maybe nationally, but local search is still dominated by Google. Looking for bars, restaurants, corner shops, grocerers and such is Google territory in my experience.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by fragmede on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:53PM (#41619985)
> how could they know what sort of results i value if they refuse to ask?

The tracking javascript, if you have it enabled, undoubtedly looks at the links on the search results page you clicked. If you search, go to the first result, and immediately bounce back to the page and try the second result, the first result gets down-ranked.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by skywhopper on Sunday September 22, 2024 @07:51AM (#41616406)
Better in what way? Better at not abusing your identity and private information to make bank arbitraging a monopolized ad market they own both sides of?
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by can16358p on Sunday September 22, 2024 @03:01AM (#41615148)
To be honest forget being better, if there's a Google competitor even on-par with Google, I'd switch to that immediately and never use Google or any of their services again.

Though it's just me of course, can't say the same of the masses.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by adolph on Saturday September 21, 2024 @10:09PM (#41614145)
> private equity will use open source, maximize profits from the Labour open source volunteers have done, and minimize costs wherever they can

Still a bizarre hill to die on. Were contributors misled about the license that allows a private or public company or a nonprofit org to use the software for profit?

Did Matt Mullenweg delude himself into thinking that only people who share his ethos about content would use the software?

Did noone learn anything from the lamentations that started with Berkley and ATT, continued with Redhat and most recently with Elastic-Amazon and Hashicorp-itself?

My impression is that Mullenweg is a thoughtful person, so maybe I'm missing something.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by giancarlostoro on Sunday September 22, 2024 @12:49AM (#41614703)
A more accurate title would have not claimed its not WordPress, but moreso emphasized that WP Engine does not provide historic record of your blog posts by default, which every other WP host does, because its how WordPress was designed. Weird title, feels misleading.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by safety1st on Sunday September 22, 2024 @01:04AM (#41614749)
He owns a competitor, Wordpress.com.

That said, his point is valid. WPEngine is one of the most expensive hosts in the industry yet they meddle with the behavior of WP as well as the underlying PHP and web server and disable a lot of things. Anyone who would like to build a website on WPEngine is advised to read:

https://wpengine.com/support/platform-settings/

And that's just the stuff they admit to.

The revisions being pulled out are the most egregious I would say. Revisions are an insanely important feature for some publishers, we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of.

Their 'long query governor' can be very frustrating and in my experience, contrary to this document it cannot be fully disabled.

All these restrictions have crept in over the last few years. WP Engine pulled the usual trick of finding ways to lock people in, and then reducing service to increase margins.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by snowwrestler on Sunday September 22, 2024 @08:52AM (#41616686)
He also owns WP VIP, which is much more expensive (and exclusive) than WP Engine.

WP Engine is popular because they hit a sweet spot of automation, capability, and price. That means some things are turned off or tuned. In my experience, WP Engine generally has made good choices there.

That said, they are choices that won’t be perfect for everyone.

> we've had enterprise customers who had to fight tooth and nail to get this turned back on and paid an arm and a leg for it, this would not have been a problem on any other WP host I'm aware of.

Then just move those sites to another host? Why would you bother fighting and paying for this? I have 3 Wordpress sites that are too complex for WP Engine and they are hosted elsewhere. And yes, it’s more expensive than WP Engine, but if a site is truly “enterprise” then the difference is not material.

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by FireBeyond on Monday September 23, 2024 @02:46PM (#41629282)
> disable a lot of things

Like how wordpress.com disables stats unless you're on a premium tier? Or like how wordpress.com disables plugins entirely unless you're on another premium tier? That kind of disabling of things?

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by AlienRobot on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @07:05PM (#41652801)
I have a self-hosted Wordpress site. There are no stats, but there are revisions.
Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by biccboii on Wednesday September 25, 2024 @10:15PM (#41653853)
This is not correct. I just created this free site on WordPress.com and the stats work as expected:

https://imgur.com/a/UtvUUPq

Re:WP Engine is not WordPress by sfmike on Sunday September 22, 2024 @02:13AM (#41614953)
Agreed this is a shocking amount of cognitive dissonance.