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Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by Jyaif on Saturday July 27, 2024 @05:46PM (#41089555)
> the titanium heart is only meant to keep a patient alive while they wait for a heart transplant, which has always been the goal of fully mechanical heart development at this stage of the game.

Why are we not aiming higher?

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by didgeoridoo on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:17PM (#41089722)
This article does a good job of outlining the challenges faced: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230217-the-61-year-long...

From the outside, it looks like a race between figuring out the biocompatibility and power issues for total artificial hearts vs. figuring out the immunological issues for xenografts (pig hearts, mostly).

If I had to put money on it, I’d bet that the xenografts win. It doesn’t seem like we’ve made huge strides toward solving the power and durability requirements of total artificial hearts, while immunology advances are happening rapidly. Exciting times, nonetheless.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by TaylorAlexander on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:02PM (#41089979)
Would be nice if a pig didn’t have to die to save a human though. This is not something everyone cares about but some people (like me) do care. Hopefully some day we can advance the technology enough with artificial solutions.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by toomuchtodo on Saturday July 27, 2024 @08:00PM (#41090261)
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by didgeoridoo on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:34PM (#41090138)
This is honestly a pretty niche concern. Even most religions that strictly forbid eating pork make an exception if a human’s life is at stake.

Your best bet would probably be in advocating for the pigs to be engineered to prevent cortical development, ensuring they don’t become anything beyond twitching, unconscious organ bags. In many ways I think people would find this more disturbing, though.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by gregoryl on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:52PM (#41090219)
Something like 6% to 10% of the population is vegan, a bit more than niche!
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by HPsquared on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:58PM (#41090247)
That sounds high. Are we talking about India here?
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday July 27, 2024 @08:02PM (#41090275)
> That sounds high. Are we talking about India here?

It sounds high even for India. About 40% of Indians are vegetarian, a third if we exclude those who eat eggs [1]. The part of the country where vegetarianism is most rampant, the North, is also the highest dairy-consuming part of the country [2].

In any case, while medical veganism is something to think about, it's not worth prioritising until after we have reliable artificial organs.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India

[2] https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/there-is-a-scientific...

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by bluescrn on Sunday July 28, 2024 @04:35PM (#41095779)
It kind of feels like activists have been trying to erase the concept of vegetarianism/pescatarianism in recent years while pushing full-on veganism.

That's probably not a good move if we want to achieve a pragmatic reduction in meat consumption to help reduce related CO2 emissions. A smaller step is a much easier sell.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by shiroiushi on Sunday July 28, 2024 @11:36PM (#41097750)
>About 40% of Indians are vegetarian, a third if we exclude those who eat eggs

Which you should not, since eating eggs does not make a person a non-vegetarian. The only thing that makes a person a vegetarian is not eating animal flesh. Eggs and dairy are fair game; it's only vegans who push it farther and forbid those. This is basic stuff; has someone been trying to redefine "vegetarianism" recently?

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by rsynnott on Monday July 29, 2024 @03:29AM (#41098540)
AIUI “vegetarian” in India usually excludes eggs. This likely means that a _majority_ of the world’s vegetarians do not eat eggs.

> This is basic stuff; has someone been trying to redefine "vegetarianism" recently?

Oddly enough, when the word was introduced to popular use in English (though note that similar _concepts_ predated it), it usually meant something closer to what ‘vegan’ does today. The current use of the word is a 20th century thing. Words get redefined, all the time; that’s how languages work. Deal with it. In this case, the word has generally tended to be defined in _more_ permissive terms, not less.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by TaylorAlexander on Saturday July 27, 2024 @11:59PM (#41091138)
My sincerest hope is that eating animals becomes less popular over the next hundred years such that killing them for medical needs becomes less acceptable.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by rangestransform on Tuesday July 30, 2024 @08:19AM (#41108374)
Even for vegans I would assume saving a human life to be a more worthy sacrifice of an animal life than for eating
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by aziaziazi on Monday July 29, 2024 @10:04AM (#41100541)
I’m an atheist and do have concern for the slaughters that are done on behalf on my own life and consumptions. Removing (99%) of consumptions was easy. If a pig heart give me a significant portion of life (+20y) I would maybe take the pig life but not for less. An artificial heart would surely remove the moral dilemma. Despite you good faith, a zombie pig would make it worse.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by fuzzfactor on Saturday July 27, 2024 @09:33PM (#41090643)
>Would be nice if a pig didn’t have to die

Something a bacon lover never said ever . . .

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by brnt on Sunday July 28, 2024 @12:15AM (#41091178)
This bacon lover has seen how pigs are treated in industrial facilities and has lost all appetite. I rarely buy it, from a local place whose pigs are slaughtered not by low wage people in a dark slaughterhouse that must meet quotas and have very disturbing ideas of fun.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by fuzzfactor on Sunday July 28, 2024 @04:30AM (#41091966)
I do know what you mean.

I was raised as a pork lover but did stop as a teenager on my own a couple years before I quit beef. I think that did have a positive effect on my young health in the interim, but eventually everything was replaced by more comprehensive plant-based alternatives.

Still love the smell of bacon though.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by TaylorAlexander on Saturday July 27, 2024 @11:58PM (#41091134)
tbh I bet plenty of bacon lovers feel bad that a sweet intelligent animal dies to make their meal, and if a perfect copy of bacon could be made without it I bet a good number of them would be happy to switch to it.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by fuzzfactor on Sunday July 28, 2024 @04:25AM (#41091950)
This does seem like a more "palatable" alternative and there should be excellent opportunity for the lab-grown pork to have a place on the table. Would seem less cruel to a lot of people I would think.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by iancmceachern on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:37PM (#41089823)
Totally, I've been following that space closely as well.

Amazing times indeed, we are seeing xenografts and artificial organs in use.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by tomcam on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:23PM (#41089743)
> Why are we not aiming higher?

We've been aiming higher explicitly for at 70+ years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart). I've been following it for 50. Artificial hearts were 5 years away since at least 1972 or so when I first learned about this field. The problems (mechanical, surgical, electrical, biological) are endless and it's an astoundingly hostile environment for machinery. We have enough problems getting pacemakers to work without severe problems.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by enthulhusiastic on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:36PM (#41089820)
Because our bodies are already peak technology.

I think the 6-million-dollar man thing is a weird goal.

Better to regrow, implant, perhaps supplement.

Full-on replacement isn’t just a “when” but a “why” and a “how do you expect to do better than evolution”.

Titanium is cool! That doesn’t make it better than muscle.

Go for a run if you want a better heart

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by perihelions on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:43PM (#41089862)
- "how do you expect to do better than evolution"

Because our goal is aligned with our actual problem (survival of individual human beings), as opposed to the merely partially-aligned goal of "statistical survival up to reproduction age"? Natural evolution is an unaligned AI, in a sense: powerful, but not helpful.

Eventually humanity will defeat this problem, and we won't even need computational parity with natural evolution to do that. Most of that computation is wasted.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by enthulhusiastic on Tuesday July 30, 2024 @06:42AM (#41107783)
Most of the computation is suffering, but not wasted. It still benefits us.

And the computation has to be done even in simulation. Just better to shortcut the suffering.

I think bioengineering is a good goal. I think cyborgs are a bad goal.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by Dylan16807 on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:04PM (#41089985)
It's really easy to come up with a better plan than evolution for lots of things.

If our bodies were peak, we wouldn't need to use hundred(s) of hours of exercise per year to force muscular and cardiovascular improvements, it would just happen. Muscles wouldn't shrink away in an aggressive attempt to conserve calories, especially not regardless of BMI.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by bamboozled on Sunday July 28, 2024 @07:15AM (#41092481)
If our bodies were peak, we wouldn't need to use hundred(s) of hours of exercise per year to force muscular and cardiovascular improvements, it would just happen.

Then what would be the point of living if you had nothing to do but wait for updates? How boring.

Even a self-improving machine is spending time, not exercising but “designing a better version of itself”. Which is an “exercise”.

I hate to say this but I think your comment misunderstands the beauty of life and the challenge behind the struggle to improve. It is a blessed journey.

I personally think being fallable and not having full control of my destiny, while scary, is a feature and not a bug. It seems to make existence exciting.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by Dylan16807 on Sunday July 28, 2024 @10:10AM (#41093262)
> nothing to do

> Which is an “exercise”.

You're arguing against a strawman. I'm not complaining about working for self-improvement, I'm complaining about how muscles shrink away so rapidly when not in use. Look at what happens when people are bedridden for a few weeks, that is not good design!

And I'm not saying people should automatically look like body builders, I'm saying the baseline should be a healthy level.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by elcritch on Sunday July 28, 2024 @06:41PM (#41096528)
I'm pro genetic modifications for these sort of (slight) changes. We live in entirely different environments and our baselines to be healthy makes sense to me. Of course the next step always seems to be "make superhuman soldiers" or "designer babies".
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by bamboozled on Monday July 29, 2024 @10:01AM (#41100514)
Each of your muscle fibres contain what is known as myonuclei. These are a structure within the muscle cell that act as the ‘brain’ of the cell – in this manner, they are what tells the muscle fibre to grow in response to strength training.

Interestingly, when you undergo a period of strength training, you see an increase in the number of myonuclei within your muscle fibres.

And this increase is permanent.

[1] https://foreverfitscience.com/exercise-science/is-muscle-mem...

I had a child, took a year off lifting, or basically doing anything but walking, I didn't lose much mass or strength and it hasn't taken me long to get back where I was, I'm pretty happy with the current design, maybe you should train more so you actually have some muscle in case you do need to spend a few weeks in bed?

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by BriggyDwiggs42 on Sunday July 28, 2024 @07:28PM (#41096796)
“Nothing to do” is not the same as not having to exercise. Exercise is quite boring, and you’d have more time to appreciate the beautiful things if you didn’t have to do it for maintenance.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by bamboozled on Monday July 29, 2024 @10:07AM (#41100576)
It's boring "for you" that is your opinion, I absolutely love hiking, weight training, football and surfing. I am a physical person. If you find it boring, that's your own preference.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday July 30, 2024 @06:09PM (#41114613)
Yeah i find it boring unless it’s gamified, like in sports. Nothing wrong with feeling differently though.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday July 29, 2024 @12:52PM (#41101803)
> you’d have more time to appreciate the beautiful things if you didn’t have to do it for maintenance

Some people manage to do both at the same time.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by BriggyDwiggs42 on Tuesday July 30, 2024 @06:07PM (#41114600)
Okay, good for them
[dead]
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by dylan604 on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:53PM (#41089926)
You can do plenty of other things good for your heart that is much less damaging to the rest of the body. Running is horrible for joints. Just walking at a brisk pace will get the heart pumping. If we want people to get more active, there are much better things to suggest that go for a run. I ran long distance all through school, and refuse to run for running's sake. Playing soccer is the only running I will do, but at least there's a purpose. Walking, swimming, riding a bike, spin class, whatever are much easier suggestions for couch potatoes to start with
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by normie3000 on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:59PM (#41090257)
> Walking, swimming, riding a bike, spin class, whatever are much easier suggestions for couch potatoes to start with

Apart from walking, one issue with these other suggestions is that they are much less available than running and require special skills.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by dylan604 on Saturday July 27, 2024 @09:08PM (#41090528)
prior to 2020, one of the perks a lot this audience had with their job was in office gyms. for the price of a decent pair of running shoes, you could afford a few months of a gym membership. you could also do jumping jacks, or any other number of at cardio exercises from plenty of places with Apple's offering just an example. i would venture a guess there are youtube channels for it as well. to say that exercise is cost prohibitive is just someone looking for excuses.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by kiba on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:25PM (#41090088)
Runnng being bad for your joint is apparently a myth.[1]

1. https://longevity.stanford.edu/lifestyle/2023/08/29/is-runni...

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by HPsquared on Saturday July 27, 2024 @08:00PM (#41090267)
I always wonder about survivorship bias in studies correlating exercise and health. Someone with joint trouble isn't able to run much, for example. It filters those people out. No doubt there are real benefits, but simple correlation will always have that problem.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by dylan604 on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:27PM (#41090100)
tell that to my knees and ankles. the equipment is much better today than it was back when Moses and I were kids, but there are plenty of other ways of getting people active than jumping straight to running.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by kaba0 on Monday July 29, 2024 @11:46AM (#41101326)
How is running bad for our joints? Maybe if you do it on concrete in a bad shoe, but the human body was literally made to run - which is very apparent from its design (our thighs are basically a spring that can “charge up” slowly in the “up” phase of running for less energy usage + no hair and improved thermodynamics (people can literally run for longer distances than most other animals with very few exceptions)), and you can even feel it yourself, like no other sport has such a short getting up to speed phase. If you start running for a week, you will already feel a huge improvement, unlike in tennis or bodybuilding where it might take months to noticeably get better.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by kaba0 on Monday July 29, 2024 @08:51AM (#41100061)
I mean, no, the human heart is absolutely not “peak technology”, not even peak of what is possible in nature (birds have us beaten), but none of these hold a candle to, say, a turbine.

The main issue here is the combination of biological tissue/conditions and artificial ones without either giving out.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by WJW on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:13PM (#41089700)
Same reason as why we're not developing starships to go to the other side of the Milky way at the moment: We don't know how to and the leap from "what we can do right now" (ie we struggle to get people to the moon permanently) and "other side of the galaxy" is simply too big.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by nightfly on Saturday July 27, 2024 @05:59PM (#41089621)
Because we can barely get a temporary one working now. I'm sure they'd love to be able to make a permanent one, it's just not in the cards yet.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by Leynos on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:26PM (#41089761)
The Abiocor device always fascinated me.

It was developed with long-term implantation in mind. You can read about it here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/...

The use of inductive power transfer meant that no transdermal cabling was needed.

Sadly, it sounds like for various reasons the dream was not achievable at the time.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by iancmceachern on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:39PM (#41089838)
I know people who worked on that, I've held one in my hand.

It was not designed with long term implantation in mind.

It was designed to get funding and keep the company alive. The device itself was very crude, not statenof the art at the time, and much of it was hand dip-molded with basic materials. It was a hand made research device that in all reality would have never been expected to be reliable and long lasting.

The Bivacor, Heartmate III, these things are in a different class.

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by iancmceachern on Saturday July 27, 2024 @06:36PM (#41089817)
The human heart is magical. They've been aiming higher since the 60s and this device is also aiming higher, but this is the stepping stone to that.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by bawolff on Saturday July 27, 2024 @07:26PM (#41090093)
You first must crawl before you can run.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by fuzzfactor on Saturday July 27, 2024 @09:16PM (#41090570)
Listen to what Dr. Cohn says in the clip:

https://abc13.com/post/artificial-heart-procedure-performed-...

>Why are we not aiming higher?

The final trajectory is not fully known but it looks like they have been preparing for a moon shot from the beginning anyway.

You've got to get there from here.

The higher the integrity, the more you under-promise and over-deliver :)

not my downvote btw, corrective upvote to compensate

Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by _qua on Saturday July 27, 2024 @09:19PM (#41090578)
That white hose you see coming off the back of it is the drive line which passes out the chest and connects to an external battery. It's not a normal life with one of these in place, a heart transplant would be vastly preferable.
Re:Maglev titanium heart now whirs inside the chest of a liv... by billfruit on Sunday July 28, 2024 @03:36PM (#41095427)
Is it not possible to avoid the cable passing through the chest, by using induction to pass currents between circuits inside and outside the body?