News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by itsoktocry on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @06:11PM (#40794263)
I love how we've gone from "Taxis are gross and dirty, that's why I love Uber!" to"Ubers are gross and dirty, that's why I love Waymo!" in the span of 5 years.

What do you think comes next? These cars are literally unsupervised.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by tmpz22 on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:17PM (#40794800)
> These cars are literally unsupervised.

Unsupervised in what sense? There's internal cameras that are periodically checked. Weight and seatbelt sensors that give alerts if a passenger is or puts objects in the drivers seat, or if too many individuals get in the car.

I'd be shocked if a similar or greater level of observability doesn't also exist outside the car.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by 0max on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:01PM (#40795105)
I've had a dude with a Tagalog accent take over the speakers in my car and asked me and the folks I was inside with to leave because I decided to clown car it with friends visiting from out of state. With that said, there for sure is someone monitoring, but it's similar to how checkout at Amazon Go stores went.

I'd be curious to know how this monitoring scales over time.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by eightysixfour on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:41PM (#40795903)
I don’t work for Amazon but I have worked with the tech. The media really ran with a misunderstanding there - the error rate for JWO is dramatically lower than people seem to think.

https://www.forrester.com/blogs/no-amazon-isnt-killing-just-...

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by fragmede on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:59PM (#40796005)
We have computers that can drive a car in city traffic and you're worried that we can't have a computer look at the inside of a car and tell me if someone's left a mess? A non-ML model background subtraction algorithm from the 2000's could tell you that.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by TremendousJudge on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:39AM (#40800645)
computers can't smell
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by traverseda on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:07AM (#40800915)
VOC sensors are pretty good
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by AuryGlenz on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:39AM (#40801270)
“Massive fart detected. Initializing ejector seat in 3, 2…”

I’m not sure how you could make that work. People that eat Indian food step in and it might get set off, so people will cry racism. You drive next to a particular industrial plant, etc..

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by bushbaba on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:33AM (#40797010)
I’ll be curious how this is profitable long term.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by DANmode on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:40AM (#40797040)
Does your long term include changing from offshoring?

If not, what are you expecting to be prohibitive?

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Aerbil313 on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:31PM (#40794892)
I think GP meant unsupervised during the ride by a remote human driver.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gnicholas on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @09:52PM (#40795662)
> Unsupervised in what sense?

Unsupervised in the sense that there's no driver there to clean the car when it gets dirty. At the same time, presumably part of the odor of an uber comes from the driver, so that helps. I wonder if waymos roll down the window (weather permitting) between riders, to air it out. Might be dangerous at a red light, since people could throw stuff in or even dive in through open windows.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by browningstreet on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @01:10AM (#40796609)
Or, maybe.. when the Waymo cars return to the depot periodically during the day.

https://youtu.be/3QZ3e7mWD9E?si=CbP063vAtrnOTihp

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gnicholas on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:15AM (#40796929)
Makes sense if they're nearby frequently, but if vehicles are serving larger areas, that would happen less often.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by dgoldstein0 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @03:05AM (#40797168)
They may have multiple depots in the larger area. Maybe spread further apart though
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gnicholas on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @03:26AM (#40797282)
True! Presumably they'd refuel the vehicles in these places as well. The number of depots would depend on how much time you want to waste having vehicles driving out-of-direction and (1) the cost of additional real estate plus (2) the cost of employees at each location.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by BtM909 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:42AM (#40800672)
They're electric cars, so I assume they don't need to be juiced up in between rides.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by ac29 on Thursday June 27, 2024 @06:15PM (#40815770)
The service runs 24/7, the vehicles certainly have to be out of service to charge at some point.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gambiting on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:49AM (#40797085)
>>Unsupervised in what sense? There's internal cameras that are periodically checked.

What do you think is more likely to get vandalized - a room with a human sitting in it, or a room with a camera watching it?

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by iwontberude on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:54AM (#40797113)
The room with the human sitting in it, because humans are known to vandalize things.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gambiting on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:07AM (#40798291)
I can't believe I have to specify this, but I obviously meant "other than by the human watching the room". Equally I don't expect the Uber driver to be the one vandalizing their own taxi.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by sulam on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:24AM (#40799165)
And yet you'll find that your definition of clean may far exceed the driver of an Uber's at least every other trip.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by iwontberude on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:25PM (#40801696)
They do occasionally, I smell smoke in the headliner because the driver is an occasional smoker.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by standardUser on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:15AM (#40799088)
They have my credit card and they could ban me from their app. It's not like people constantly trash hotel rooms or rental cars.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by rob74 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:32AM (#40799253)
99.9% of people also don't vandalize toilets, buses, trains and other public amenities, it's the 0.1% that do that's the problem...
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by _flux on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:19AM (#40800392)
None of those places have a good idea of your identity, though.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by JohnFen on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @03:58PM (#40803995)
> It's not like people constantly trash hotel rooms

I worked as a house attendant in an upscale hotel for years. Let me tell you from experience: a shockingly high percentage of people trash and damage their rooms. Not the majority, but enough to keep staff busy every day.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by ivanhoe on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:25AM (#40799175)
How do you remotely detect if car stinks or not?
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by frakkingcylons on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:44AM (#40800691)
They have sensors to do this. They also know how to cycle the cabin air completely from the Covid days.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by ctvo on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @08:33AM (#40799256)
> How do you remotely detect if car stinks or not?

Why do you think they need to? These cars go to a centralize location every night, I would assume, and cleaning at scale can happen. How often do you think an Uber driver cleans their car in comparison?

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by potatolicious on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:51AM (#40800047)
Not to mention the problem is pretty eminently solvable: let users flag a car as having an unacceptable condition. If that happens dispatch a new car and send the dirty car directly back to home base for cleaning.

The main problem with Uber/taxi quality is that the responsibility for cleanliness is on individual drivers, with widely varying results as a natural outcome. In fact a lot of problems with Ubers and taxis is downstream from the ownership and responsibility model.

The advantage of something like Waymo is that the responsibility is now on Waymo itself.

Worth noting that this is a problem in other lines of business: it's harder to ensure quality in franchises vs. stores operated directly by the brand. The more independent parties you have in the mix the more incentives become misaligned and the fewer levers you have available to ensure compliance to some standard.

This also isn't impossible to solve with human drivers, because ultimately this isn't a technological problem but an organizational one. Livery car services where drivers are employees (as opposed to independent owner-operators contractors) can centralize cleaning and training, and have more means to ensure compliance to a standard.

The "downside" of such a model is that there are many more laws to ensure you can't shovel your own expenses onto the employee.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by BurningFrog on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:04AM (#40800209)
People take taxis because they're too drunk to drive.

This sometimes leads to in-car vomiting.

There are also still smokers among us.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by hiptobecubic on Saturday June 29, 2024 @09:51AM (#40830551)
I'm confused, are you saying that no one can detect if you're smoking or vomiting?
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by BurningFrog on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:08AM (#40800252)
Amazon has plenty of odor detectors for ~$50: https://www.amazon.com/odor-detector/s?k=odor+detector

I assume there are sensors available suitable for Waymo taxis.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by BurningFrog on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:01AM (#40800178)
If the cameras are not AI monitored now, they will be next month.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by mensetmanusman on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:49AM (#40800741)
By mechanical Turks for a few years.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by bamboozled on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:07AM (#40800244)
There's internal cameras that are periodically checked.

Not appealing for me personally.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by sushid on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:12PM (#40794772)
Well it's because as Uber expanded and had to desperately fight for its margins, it started to lower its standards for UberX. Before, cars had to be fairly new and in a relatively good condition. Now it's no longer the case.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Keyframe on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @07:06PM (#40794723)
Organic, manual, hand-driven authentic vintage driving experience (before it was cool, of course).
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by wetpaws on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @06:41PM (#40794532)
>What do you think comes next?

Public transport, hopefully.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by hyfgfh on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @10:16PM (#40795791)
And mingle with the masses? in SF?

Maybe if they re-invent trains or buses again

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by elbasti on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:12AM (#40796313)
> Maybe if they re-invent trains or buses again

You joke, but I've heard more than one argument about how self-driving cars will drastically improve traffic because, for inter-city travel, they will be able to drive very close together on the highway in a long convoy, leaving almost no space between cars...

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by thechao on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:30AM (#40796397)
150 cars long! 90000 horsepower! May Immortan Joe live forever!!! To the Vineyards!
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by DANmode on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:44AM (#40797062)
It'll end up being the opposite that causes a positive effect, if there's one to be had.

Leaving proper gaps (which next to nobody reading this will be familiar with!) allows for cars to cross, or even merge.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by miki123211 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:17AM (#40798681)
I don't think it's such a bad idea, actually. There's value in having something that can drive in a "train", but that can also disconnect when needed and drive on its own.

If you're driving long distance, you get the advantages of a train, but door-to-door, with no scheduling conflicts and no egregious stop times. If your destination is 5 minutes away, it's still a car.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by elbasti on Thursday June 27, 2024 @02:06PM (#40813301)
Or, you know, you could drive (or bike! or waymo!) to the local train station, which should have <30 min, well-scheduled, predictable headways to major cities, then take a train that goes 150+mph, and then drive (or bike! or waymo!) to your final destination, for _far_ less total energy expenditure.

Every car in a train-caravan is schlepping along its own engine, crumple zones, airbags....and with rubber tires...

...its frankly idiotic.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by red75prime on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:16AM (#40797562)
You need to get rid of excessive solar energy when prices turn negative anyway. So why not charge a fleet of electric taxicabs.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Mashimo on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:41AM (#40797759)
Why not charge a fleet of busses or trams?
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by red75prime on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:19PM (#40801643)
Why not both? We aren't trying to be efficient here, we are dumping excess energy from intermittent sources.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by signatoremo on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:02AM (#40799550)
Public transportation is not a true panacea even where it’s seen most favorable. Car ownership increased 14% in Europe from 2012 to 2022, across the board:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/d...

The future will be a combination of trains, a more extensive robotaxi network for the last mile, which can be cars or vans, and a much smaller percentage of personal vehicles compared to today. Buses as they are today will decline.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by buzzert on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:32PM (#40805739)
Right, because public transit cleanliness beats Taxis, Ubers, and Waymos.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by hot_gril on Tuesday June 25, 2024 @08:27PM (#40795222)
Regardless of whether the Waymo is supervised, they're brand-new cars, of course they'll be cleaner.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Fricken on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @01:01AM (#40796549)
Motor vehicles are gross and dirty, that's why I ride a bicycle.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by darkr on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @03:14AM (#40797218)
TBF, after riding up a few SF hills in the summer I’m pretty gross
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by olalonde on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @01:03AM (#40796567)
Self-driving + self-cleaning cars obviously.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by nytesky on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @01:55AM (#40796836)
Uber started as off duty black car drivers doing gig work. Those were the default right? The random guy with a car gig was rolled out as uberx later?

But I'm completely with you on the unsupervised part. People doing all sorts of things back there that an ML might not identify. Now if they hire an army remotely to monitor, I guess that could scale because of wage disparities.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by gpm on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:30AM (#40797001)
Not just wage disparities. You can probably watch the typical video of an individual sitting calmly scrolling on their phone back at 32x speed. More complex scenarios with multiple people at 16-4x. Even assuming they pay 'car monitors' as much as drivers (which you're right, they probably don't) the cost for the monitors is still probably less than 10% the cost for equivalent drivers.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by IanCal on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:32AM (#40797008)
You probably only need to do that when something is reported as well.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by intended on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @04:26AM (#40797625)
Most likely a “data driven sampling methodology to identify the predictive factors of damage.”
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by miki123211 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:09AM (#40798632)
Not just wage disparities, but also time / location.

Quickly going through CCTV footage from a ride to catch "unusual things" takes much less time than driving. Even if somebody had to watch the entire ride at 1x speed and just one ride at a time, there's no need to do it when the car is idle or driving to pick up the next passenger. You can also hire a lot less watchers than you have drivers, because a surge in demand in one city can be serviced by watchers in many other cities. There's no need for night shifts either, you can make everybody work 9-to-5 in whatever timezone they're at.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Ygg2 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:09AM (#40796900)
Waymos ads are obnoxious and it keeps selling my travel data to everyone, I'll better get a car
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by miki123211 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @07:13AM (#40798660)
Source?
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Ygg2 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @10:50AM (#40800747)
Windows 11, Google, et al.

For more see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by klohto on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @11:41AM (#40801283)
“I made it up”, got it
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by Ygg2 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:02PM (#40802653)
Of course not. "It came to me in a dream".
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by hot_gril on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:11PM (#40801576)
Doesn't seem like they sell the travel data to others unless they get acquired, but they use it to advertise on their own.

"We collect usage data that includes trip history, buttons or links you click on our mobile app, in-vehicle interfaces, wait times for our vehicles, and other actions you take with our products and services"

"We collect information about your location in a few different ways. When you take a trip, we collect the pickup and drop-off location and details about the vehicle’s route."

"We may also use your information to personalize services, advertisements, content, and features, communicate with you including marketing (which you can opt out of), service, and account messages, or communicate other information we think will be of interest to you "

"We will retain information we associate with your Waymo account, such as name, email and trip history, while your account remains active."

"Waymo will not disclose your personal information with a third party unless one of the following applies: ...

- We're involved in a merger, acquisition, reorganization or sale or transfer of some or all of our assets

- In some cases to help us tailor ads and offers to your interests as detailed in the U.S. state law requirements section

- Comply with any applicable law, regulation, legal process, or governmental request ... "

https://support.google.com/waymo/answer/9184840#zippy=%2Cinf...

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by DANmode on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @02:37AM (#40797034)
Might actually cut down on the contingent who leave trash or other debris because they believe a person will be cleaning after them.

I know, I know. We can dream.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by shoubidouwah on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @05:55AM (#40798223)
You have ID of who was in the car and when, and a 'report' button in the app for the next passenger. Easy enough, if something is reported you have the choice to wait for the next one while the trashed car goes to be cleaned or ride anyway at a discount if you solve it yourself - e.g: put the trash in a bag in the boot of the car. After N reports attributed to you, you get banned.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by mejutoco on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @06:17AM (#40798334)
Uber can have reporting as much as this, or more. I can think of some: the driver owning the car incentivizes keeping it clean; bad reviews for dirty cars.

This problem is orthogonal to selfdriving.

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by splwjs on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:34AM (#40799876)
open car door

trash car (or don't)

report trashed car

ride for discount

Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by DiggyJohnson on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:19PM (#40801640)
Yes. But this is obviously asocial enough to deter most people. Significantly better deterrent than self-checkout, at least.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by elaus on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @12:08PM (#40801558)
You forgot the last step: Get banned because the video surveillance shows the trash being thrown in after you've unlocked the car.
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by vlan0 on Wednesday June 26, 2024 @09:29AM (#40799823)
Life is just a giant story we tell ourselves. This is no different. Who knows what tomorrow's story will tell!
Re:Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco by lilbaby on Thursday June 27, 2024 @11:48AM (#40811780)
Careening into dystopia one questionably clean Uber at a time