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Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by jedberg on Saturday April 20, 2024 @12:36PM (#40098559)
What's most interesting is that this wasn't on party lines. The yes/no mix is very mixed party-wise.

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by hammock on Saturday April 20, 2024 @12:45PM (#40098638)
Agreed that’s interesting. Really makes you think about all these crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by stanford_labrat on Saturday April 20, 2024 @01:10PM (#40098807)
Because in reality the two party system is not accurate. It’s rich versus poor, those with power versus those without. Nobility versus peasants. That’s just how it works.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Gud on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:00PM (#40099316)
That's how it works in the USA, not necessarily how it works. Other forms of governing exists.

A big step forward for the USA would be a vast reduction of federal power over the states.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by pessimizer on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:26PM (#40099586)
Other countries don't institutionalize the two-party system by law. Because it would be insane and antidemocratic to create a complicated network of laws that would have to be eliminated state by state in order to ordain that an entire country must be ruled by two intimately-linked private clubs in turn.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by cryptonector on Saturday April 20, 2024 @06:54PM (#40101723)
The two-party system isn't so heavily institutionalized "by law". The law generally gives advantages to parties that pull in more than x% of the vote, and it so happens that the first-past-the-post system of electing representatives makes it very difficult for a third party to take root.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by dartos on Saturday April 20, 2024 @08:19PM (#40102202)
The first past the post system is encoding a two party system into law. If it makes to hard enough for a third party to take hold, there might as well not be one.

Not everything is spelled in ink.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by bigstrat2003 on Saturday April 20, 2024 @10:50PM (#40102812)
That's not "encoded into the law". The outcomes of the law are not the same as the law itself.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by dartos on Sunday April 21, 2024 @02:42AM (#40103643)
Practically speaking, they are.

The effect of a law is at least as important as the literal words on the page.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by int_19h on Sunday April 21, 2024 @03:03AM (#40103728)
Except our law is nothing like that. You can have a party take 45% of each district across the whole country and end up with zero seats in the House (because the other party took 55% of each).
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by sapphicsnail on Saturday April 20, 2024 @05:53PM (#40101346)
How would that help? Political parties operate in states. States are banning books and outlawing abortions too.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by artificialLimbs on Saturday April 20, 2024 @06:34PM (#40101622)
States are not printing billions of dollars and shipping it overseas or wholesale spying on their populace for the purpose of political manipulation.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by theoldlove on Saturday April 20, 2024 @10:27PM (#40102737)
The US federal government is already pretty weak compared to other countries. The federal government looks pretty bad at the moment, but I’m not sure further weakening it will help the country.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Gud on Sunday April 21, 2024 @02:16AM (#40103528)
Compared to wich countries,

The US is a massive country, with the populace far removed from the decision making. I believe this is the core problem.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by int_19h on Sunday April 21, 2024 @02:44AM (#40103650)
The US federal government is very strong compared to many countries, just limited in where that power can be applied... in theory. In practice, the insanity that is a precedent-based judicial system over time means that it's all just a disorganized mess where on one hand the Feds can straight up prevent you from boarding a plane, ever, without any semblance of due process (this is not normally a power you'll find in other countries), and yet can't regulate many mundane things like firearms.

However, there is a very solid case for a weak federal government, and it is simply that US is a country that's way too big for any coherent national policy on most matters that we've currently pushed there. It's such a vicious fight because it's half the country trying to bludgeon the other half into submission, motivated by the knowledge that, if you yield, the other guy will pick up this huge club and do the same to you. This will continue until the country breaks down unless we dial it down to state level and accept the fact that other states may have laws and lifestyle that is despicable or horrifying to us in some ways. Either that, or we might as well just break the whole thing apart now and not wait for it to happen in a more violent manner.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by yoyohello13 on Saturday April 20, 2024 @11:21PM (#40102944)
Yep, that’s how it has worked throughout all of human history.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Wowfunhappy on Saturday April 20, 2024 @01:25PM (#40098961)
I do not find it surprising that groups of people with many overlapping viewpoints do not have overlapping viewpoints 100% of the time. If anything, I find it surprising that they overlap so frequently.

Furthermore, I think the frequency of that overlap is a major problem for our political system, because it makes compromise impossible.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by nyokodo on Saturday April 20, 2024 @01:30PM (#40099035)
> crackpots talking about a uniparty, deep state vs the people, etc

It’s not controversial to suggest that the interests of the political class, the special interests that fund their campaigns, and Washington bureaucrats differ from the interests of the public at large. You don’t need to evoke deep state conspiracies to explain nefarious coordination because when career and monetary incentives align then bills like this one get passed.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by soraminazuki on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:58PM (#40099953)
Yep, this trend of dismissing undemocratic power structures as conspiracy theories is deeply troubling. Important issues such as surveillance, censorship, and the military-industrial complex have a long history and are extensively documented. Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist.

It wasn't always like this. Many have agreed these were legitimate issues during the Iraq war. Where have all those people gone today?

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by squigz on Saturday April 20, 2024 @03:35PM (#40100312)
> Yet it's hard to bring these issues up today without being labeled a far right conspiracist.

This really isn't all that true in my experience. And, I mean, look at the discussion here... Maybe consider the people you hang around with?

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Zancarius on Saturday April 20, 2024 @04:11PM (#40100616)
It's definitely who you hang around with, but I think how the conversation is approached also dictates outcome. Talk about a political ruling class with most people, and they'll look at you as though you grew a third eyeball. Talk about the Dems and Repubs being out of touch with the average person due to the insulative effect of DC, and they'll usually agree.

You can generally convey the same idea gently as long as you hedge your phrasing somewhat. Making it sound like a wacky accusation comes off sounding, well, wacky.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by hammock on Saturday April 20, 2024 @07:07PM (#40101797)
You nailed it. This discussion would never have happened on HN if I hadn’t worded my original comment the way I did. It’s not how I wanted to word it ;)
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by bombcar on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:15PM (#40102472)
You can talk about a uniparty all you want as long as the people you’re talking to are still sure you vote the “correct” way.

How that is broached depends on whom you are talking with.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Zancarius on Wednesday April 24, 2024 @04:53PM (#40149483)
Yup, I have that happen a lot. So, I can definitely empathize.

We're in this really weird place where some of us on different parts of the political spectrum who may not have previously agreed are now in general agreement one way or the other, just because politics itself has become so insane.

I mean, I'm a little crazy, I won't deny that. But it's kind of bugging me that phrasing matters far more than the idea. Most reasonable people would agree that the system is fundamentally broken. We might not agree on a solution, but at least we can look at it and say "yeah, this isn't sustainable." Unfortunately, if you use the wrong word around the wrong group of people, you get branded a little bonkers. :)

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by unethical_ban on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:01PM (#40099330)
Really makes you think about whether there are some things that can still transcend partisan showmanship, like national security.

I still am a believer in digital freedom, I'm old enough to have seen the changes in the Internet, and it is a much more malevolent and fucked up force than it was even 15 years ago. Maybe, just maybe, the government needs the power to spy on international targets with oversight.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by karma_pharmer on Sunday April 21, 2024 @01:05AM (#40103304)
with oversight

The constitution's term for this is "warrant".

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by int_19h on Sunday April 21, 2024 @03:20AM (#40103794)
When didn't they ever claim that sky will fall if they don't have all the surveillance they already do, and then some for good measure?
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by djfobbz on Saturday April 20, 2024 @08:09PM (#40102150)
Maybe they're on to something and we're the crackpots?
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by pessimizer on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:23PM (#40099563)
The parties only have "disputes" on a short list of wedge issues, and either side winning on those removes the that issue as a cudgel that can motivate their base.

If you look at their donors, you'll see the lines. The people who voted for it make money from the defense and intelligence industries, and the people who didn't, don't. Voting for for something majorities of the voters of both parties are against is expensive (in terms of being re-elected.) That price is paid by donors, and the media control that those donors will exercise. Which again, is why the wedge issues are needed: you're going to have to vote for those people who voted against your civil liberties if you want Democrats to pretend to protect abortion rights for another 4 years, or Republicans to pretend to end them.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Cacti on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:17PM (#40102482)
I mean, except that many people can’t get either an abortion or IVF. This affects people’s entires lives, it’s not “pretend” unless you are unaffected.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by cool_dude85 on Saturday April 20, 2024 @11:00PM (#40102841)
This happened under a Democratic president. And what have they done about it since?
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by brewdad on Saturday April 20, 2024 @11:07PM (#40102863)
What would you have Biden do about exactly? Pack the Supreme Court? If Roosevelt couldn’t pull that off at the height of his power, there’s no way Biden is making that happen.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Cacti on Sunday April 28, 2024 @07:49AM (#40187908)
Pretty sure the GOP controls the House. Do you expect Biden to sit at a desk and sign a bill that can’t pass the House?
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by octopoc on Sunday April 21, 2024 @10:16AM (#40105957)
My hot take is that IVF enables infertile couples to propagate their genes, which is bad in an evolutionary sense since it increases the population and decreases the fertility of the gene pool. Another way of putting it is, it increases the odds of people falling in love with someone who is infertile.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by letsSpy on Saturday April 20, 2024 @02:38PM (#40099719)
In other words, both parties are out there to screw you. We need a different voting system that would allow a third and fourth party to "exist". Like ranked-choice voting, maybe. Or maybe just get rid or parties and let them all be independent.

Did Biden already sign it?

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by alexpotato on Saturday April 20, 2024 @06:27PM (#40101577)
A couple years ago I stumbled upon this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz27n1tNNMg

The summary is this:

- Votes in the House and Senate used to be anonymous

- They then decided to make them public under the reasoning of transparency

- One side effect of making them public is that you got people like Grover Norquist and The Americans for Tax Reform who could see who voted for taxes and then use that to "name and shame" people (there was a pledge signing in there as well). For more details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

- This now means that it's MUCH easier for lobbyists and special interest groups to see where to spend their money as a Senator's voting history is public knowledge (which both sides are WELL aware of)

- As a sibling poster points out: you can easily see who receives money from defense groups vs not.

- This is probably good for us as voters in the short term but bad for the country in the long term (Due to the above)

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by idiotsecant on Saturday April 20, 2024 @06:31PM (#40101605)
I'm not convinced that this is a problem. Lobbyists and special interests already knew how politicians voted, they just knew via old fashioned grapevine methods. There was an information asymmetry between well connected lobbyists and average people. The fact that no longer exists is a good thing, in the long and short term.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by fardo on Saturday April 20, 2024 @08:50PM (#40102342)
There’s a tension between the common belief that

“when private citizens are able to vote privately, it protects their ability to vote their conscience, rather than allowing some third party to explicitly buy votes or bully someone into voting in line with someone else”,

and the belief that somehow this doesn’t apply to congress members.

Additionally, on hard philosophical and policy qurstions, some bits of negotiation and dealmaking are bare-knuckled “the sausage gets made” affairs that are brutally hard on the ego and participants. Part of why nothing can get through Congress anymore in a timely fashion and without continual brinksmanship on important funding or to prevent shutdowns is because even if crossing party lines would very often be in the public’s interest, and to the public’s net benefit, haggling to make it happen or voting to make it so often doesn’t stand up to the scrutiny of thousands of watchful eyes where an important deal may hinge on brutal haggling which the public couldn’t stomach seeing the intermediate steps and votes of.

One such example in practical terms: if the constitutional convention which replaced the articles of confederation took place in the internet age with modern real-time, to the minute reporting on how everyone was voting on every intermediate plan and how any compromise made was a betrayal of “party lines” on an issue, America as a country probably wouldn’t exist today.

Transparency has its own benefits, but it’s not without costs - you make a legislative body’s job more difficult, you get corresponding gridlock to match.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by lesam on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:34PM (#40102562)
Sure there’s a tension, but one difference is that I know how I vote, but I don’t know how my representative votes unless it’s in the public record.

If you believe that electorates punish politicians for decisions in the public interest, and legislators’ jobs would be easier if they were less accountable to their voters, why support democracy at all?

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by beau_g on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:43PM (#40102594)
Elected officials should not vote their conscience, they should vote according to the wishes of their constituents
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by pixl97 on Saturday April 20, 2024 @11:49PM (#40103066)
The loudest ones?

The 51% that voted for them out of the 20% of total voters?

I mean, this does get very hard to define.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by int_19h on Sunday April 21, 2024 @02:35AM (#40103619)
Then what is the point of even having them and not just voting for everything directly?
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by vinay427 on Sunday April 21, 2024 @07:47AM (#40104924)
There are a variety of differences between having representatives vote with your interests and voting yourself, such as practicality, time expenditure and access to advising and expertise, etc. That’s perhaps why many direct democracy systems (California, Switzerland, etc.) combine the two with direct democracy used for relatively few decisions.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by godelski on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:44PM (#40102596)
> I'm not convinced that this is a problem.

There's no "THE problem." There's a ton of "problems." Just to be clear. Because many of the problems we face today are through interaction of different things, often in a complex chain, rather than a direct easy to follow causal chain.

> via old fashioned grapevine

Treat the problem as an adversarial problem. Yes, your adversary will always be able to break your defenses. Nothing is bulletproof. How you defend is through forcing adversaries to expend resources. It is very clear that forcing lobbiests to learn through the grapevine is a more costly method than simply looking at a public database. And if you aren't familiar with this concept, people lie. No one need know your vote unless you reveal it (which... might be a lie).

The point also is that it can also prevent inner conflict, among parties. You're not voting along party lines? You think you're going to get as much support from your party when it comes to your bills and campaign funds? So you have plenty of incentive to not reveal your vote, even among allies.

I agree with you in that switching to private votes won't solve the problems we have. But would it improve? I'd guess some and I'd guess it would take time for the real effects to be seen. But the other side is, would it do harm? I doubt it.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by fnordpiglet on Saturday April 20, 2024 @10:23PM (#40102728)
The continental congress itself was entirely secret with no notes taken and no existing journal, diary, or any other record of the proceedings - and this was a bunch of folks who obsessively recorded their lives and thoughts for posterity. They also thought pretty hard about the side effects of such things and congressional and senate votes were private until modern times.

I’m not one who believes the constitution is sacred or that the founding fathers were infallible, but I do think the chance for a person to vote their conscience vs their politics is an important feature. While the grapevine might be a route to learn, it’s also a route that doesn’t have to be accurate. I can tell my lobbyist whatever I want about my vote, but only I know what my vote was in private voting. This feels like a feature not a flaw.

The point of representative democracy is selecting a person whose judgement you believe in. Public voting records lead to populist and party strangleholds on outcomes with consequences for breaking dogma. Practically speaking it also gives lobbyists proof positive of whether their money was well spent.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by lumb63 on Saturday April 20, 2024 @06:55PM (#40101733)
What’s most interesting is this is incredibly unpopular amongst voters of both parties.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Cacti on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:11PM (#40102445)
which is exactly why the vote went the way it did. they wanted it passed, they found the votes from senators that were safe, and everyone else was allowed to bail so they didn’t have to deal with it at reelection.

this is normal practice, to provide cover for your party members.

it’s divided by party line because it’s national security. they’re splitting the spoils.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by int_19h on Sunday April 21, 2024 @02:36AM (#40103623)
Representative democracy in US is neither representative nor really a democracy.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by lettergram on Saturday April 20, 2024 @07:16PM (#40101837)
On the republican side, those voting yea are almost always the old McCain crowd. What the right calls “RINOs” or republicans in name only. That’s not surprising, they’re also the group funding wars, voted for the initial spy bills, etc.

What’s more surprising is the split in IL between Duckworth (yea) and Durban (Nay). Usually you don’t see states splitting too much. Tennessee was all Nays for instance.

Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by Cacti on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:05PM (#40102413)
I would imagine Duckworth has a personal interest in it, given her work history.
Re:Senate passes reauthorization of key US surveillance prog... by bobthepanda on Saturday April 20, 2024 @09:41PM (#40102584)
at least a bunch of the isolationist sentiment on the republican side recently has actually come from former veterans, since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had such questionable returns