News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by paulgb on Sunday April 14, 2024 @03:57PM (#40033927)
The problem is that they are sold as a security/privacy product, because they can’t mention the more illicit uses (which the author mentions under “when to use a VPN”), which are the real use cases people buy them for.

It’s kind of like when shops selling bongs would market them as “tobacco accessories”, but there was a wink-and-nudge understanding about how they would really be used.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:20PM (#40034110)
Exactly. Is there anyone whose primary use case for a personal VPN is not "Geofence bypass for region-locked content"??

Whenever a state in the US passes a new "we need your ID to watch porn" law, sales of personal VPNs must predictably skyrocket in that state.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jonathantf2 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:45PM (#40034325)
My dad used to complain that he couldn't get on certain websites, got CAPTCHAs a lot more than he used to and often prices came up in US dollars on his computer, turns out he paid for a 3y plan to NordVPN and had it start on start up on his computer.

He can barely work the Sky box never mind stream stuff from the internet, he got duped into thinking it would make him "safer" when in reality it just makes using the internet a lot harder as everyone flags your traffic as malicious based on the datacentre IP.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by username135 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:11PM (#40034516)
Why is your assumption that VPN traffic is being blocked because it's malicious?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by csours on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:29PM (#40034659)
If you read carefully, you may see that they did not say that "VPN traffic is being blocked because it's malicious"
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jonathantf2 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @08:04PM (#40035675)
Because I've hosted websites where blocking datacentre IPs has caused a massive reduction in spam and malicious activity - and tried to use Google search with Mullvad dialled only to be greeted by a CAPTCHA every other search.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by Spooky23 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @08:04PM (#40035678)
As someone who operated a high fraud target during the pandemic, I am comfortable asserting that while not all commercial VPN traffic is fraudulent or malicious, most fraudulent or malicious traffic is over VPN.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by SkyPuncher on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:08PM (#40034904)
Because it absolutely is.

I occasionally fire up Mullvad when I’m on the go. I get blocked way more often when I use it

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hsbauauvhabzb on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:19PM (#40034976)
Because people run crawlers and perform illegal activity, and/or because ‘security companies’ sell the IP lists as low reputation potentially malicious IPs?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by akira2501 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:37PM (#40035513)
It's the same with any broker service. Fire up a Hurricane Electric IPv6 tunnel for the same effect.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by xmodem on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:42PM (#40035150)
Anyone who has browsed through one of these personal VPN services - or even a DIY VPN from a datacentre IP - for more than about 10 minutes will have experienced the increase in captcha's.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by kefyras on Monday April 15, 2024 @05:30PM (#40045858)
>Anyone who has browsed through one of these personal VPN services - or even a DIY VPN from a datacentre IP - for more than about 10 minutes will have experienced the increase in captcha's.

So has anyone behind random CGNAT.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:28PM (#40034178)
> Exactly. Is there anyone whose primary use case for a personal VPN is not "Geofence bypass for region-locked content"??

Hi! /waves I use a VPN to stop my ISP from monitoring my traffic and selling my personal information. My VPN (usually) exits in the same "region" as my real location; I guess if I hit a geoblock I could look at that, but it hasn't come up.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by dec0dedab0de on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:43PM (#40034308)
Hi! /waves I use a VPN to stop my ISP from monitoring my traffic and selling my personal information.

But then how do you stop your VPN company from doing the same? You essentially have two ISPs now.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:47PM (#40034337)
If the local ISP has a 100% chance of monetizing my data and the VPN provider has anything less than that, then it's still a win.

(Longer answer: This boils down to the weighted probabilities; if the ISP was meaningfully regulated such that it was legally restricted from doing certain things with my data, that might matter, and one should also play in the exact likelihood that either party is selling my data. In my case the weighted probability is wildly in favor of a VPN, but I suppose I can imagine situations where that wouldn't hold.)

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by blackeyeblitzar on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:03PM (#40034452)
It’s their business (value proposition) to not do the same and most explicitly commit to that. They also get third party aidiots and publish results. This isn’t fool proof but it’s better than trusting Comcast or ATT or whoever.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jddj on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:01PM (#40034440)
I VPN to a $5 vps in a distant country. I kill and move/re-up it once or twice a year.

They probably could sell my traffic, but I estimate it (based on vibes) as being less likely than for most other intermediaries

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by aborsy on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:32PM (#40034218)
You can set mullvad (which offers VPN service) as your DNS over https server. Traffic is also mostly encrypted by https. Your ISP still gets the destination IP addresses, though they are harder to track.

Wouldn’t that address your concern?

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:42PM (#40034301)
No; until Encrypted Client Hello is ubiquitous HTTPS still has domains in cleartext. Also, I don't think we should be casually dismissing tracking by IP addresses.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hnlmorg on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:39PM (#40034282)
IP addresses and host names (as defined in SNI).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by SV_BubbleTime on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:38PM (#40034272)
I think this is the old way of thinking about it.

Skipping the broader discussion of AI, the ridiculous amount of automatic and human impossible pattern, matching and correlation with seemingly harmless data is something that I don’t think we are equipped to fully comprehend.

The time at which I hit some meta CDN, seems harmless. Until combined with some cookie and some access time to some asset it uniquely identifies me to previously anonymized data.

So no, I do not think HTTP and a good DNS are enough.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by stouset on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:35PM (#40034696)
You're just trading your ISP for a different third-party who has all the same incentives.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:14PM (#40035359)
> You're just trading your ISP for a different third-party

Yes.

> who has all the same incentives.

And no. The ISP has little to no competition or incentive to not sell my information, while the VPN provider has loads of competition and often has user privacy as a core part of their value proposition.

Besides - even if both of the did have the same incentives, one openly says they're selling my data and one says they're not. At worst it's a gamble between the VPN lying and the ISP telling the truth.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by M2Ys4U on Monday April 15, 2024 @09:23AM (#40040231)
You don't have competition between ISPs? I can trivially switch between as many (if not more) ISPs as well-known VPN providers.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by soylentcola on Monday April 15, 2024 @01:56PM (#40043669)
In many (US, at least) locations, there is only a single provider of fixed broadband. Not sure how it is elsewhere, but without a more customer-friendly framework (infrastructure isn't owned by the same entity selling user access), I can't imagine too many places have multiple, parallel cable or fiber networks in a single town/city.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by unsignedint on Monday April 15, 2024 @06:24PM (#40046397)
The availability of internet service providers typically varies by state and even by city. In many cases, your choices might be limited. Often, you may find yourself restricted to a single cable provider, with the possibility of DSL, but not much else, unless you consider wireless options. Installing a wired line can range from very difficult to nearly impossible. Cities might impose a moratorium on new installations, often due to lobbying, and even if installation is permitted, the costs can be exorbitant. For example, the cost of laying new lines can reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, with service providers generally unwilling to cover these costs. One recent quote I saw was as high as $160,000.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by blackeyeblitzar on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:54PM (#40034390)
Yes, lots of people have other primary use cases? Why is that even a surprise?

VPN companies are more trustworthy than my ISP. Many get third party audits and publish results. And if the VPN company and server are in a privacy friendly country, they are hard to subpoena. Individual privacy being the default is itself valuable.

This is leaving aside numerous other reasons like avoiding censorship or persecution or whatever.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by Spooky23 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @08:09PM (#40035701)
LOL. Several of the large ones are owned by the same entity.

The main reason they exist is to do grey market bypass of controls becoming media access. If you trust them to not do some grey/shady exploitation of your metadata, more power to you. Sounds foolish to me.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:03PM (#40034458)
Yes, I was using a bit of hyperbole.

But that said, on this point I do agree with the author: privacy improvements from using a VPN are marginal for the average user due to the now widespread use of HTTPS. Yes, your ISP can see which domains you visit, but that's about it. I'm curious if there have been any successful lawsuits or prosecutions based solely on domain access logs.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by RajT88 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:10PM (#40034504)
Unless you're using DNS over HTTPS or DNS over TLS. Then they can't.

Side question: Anyone know of a gateway or self-host service which supports DNS over HTTPS relay?

i.e. it will accept vanilla DNS requests, but if it needs to forward requests, it will only do so to DoH / DoT servers?

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by pgraf on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:21PM (#40034590)
They can still deduce it from the TLS SNI unless the web server you access supports TLS 1.3 Encrypted Client Hello. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jachee on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:13PM (#40034943)
I do that with pihole.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by Kwpolska on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:09PM (#40034497)
I absolutely despise my ISP’s business arm, but I trust their network arm not to do something stupid. I certainly trust them more than a company in a remote tax haven with a broken legal system.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by nickburns on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:12PM (#40034523)
Sweden and Switzerland are hardly 'remote tax havens with broken legal systems.' you don't actually prefer your ISP's DNS service over something like say, Quad9's, do you?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by chuckadams on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:32PM (#40034224)
Sir I would have you know that I participate in no such illicit tomfoolery. My VPN use is strictly for torrenting pirated content!
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by barfbagginus on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:33PM (#40034682)
I am old fashioned. So I would use a VPN if I want to prevent my landlord from getting a cease and desist letter from a lawyer when I download warez. Mostly audio books, and textbooks, but also movies and music.

Ie, it's the use case where you Pirate all the media, and use a VPN as a security bandaid against anti-post-scarcity busybodies.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by ldjb on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:40PM (#40034729)
Piracy is also listed under the "When to use a personal VPN?" heading.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by g4zj on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:52PM (#40034802)
It is, but I believe the comment you replied to was in response to this line.

> Is there anyone whose primary use case for a personal VPN is not "Geofence bypass for region-locked content"??

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by averageRoyalty on Thursday April 18, 2024 @08:38PM (#40082247)
So... piracy, but worded fancy?

There's no ethical difference between faking your location to bypass licensing and copyright and downloading a file via torrent to bypass licensing and copyright. Both are piracy.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by snapplebobapple on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:10PM (#40034918)
My primary use case for a vpn is i dont trust people on my guest network and dont want their traffic looking like it is coming from an ip associated with me. I am not protecting against 3 letter agency levels of surveillance so i dont need the extra benefit and slowness of tor, i just need to move that traffic to a different jurisdiction to complicate things enough that people dont bother to figure out it came from my network on the off chance that someone i let on myguest network does something untoward.

does that count?

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by theginger on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:27PM (#40035046)
That's a valid privacy concern But is a VPN service a good solution? Certainly not if you are on a shared IP with the VPN. I know you can get some with a dedicated IP, but with most VPN providers it is still probably coming out of a cesspool of ips that you don't want any kind of association to.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by snapplebobapple on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:09PM (#40035323)
Shared ip is even better if you are reasonably sure the provider deletes logs (i.ec you are using mullvad). Good luck proving in a court of law which of the firehouse of clients did whatever you are claiming.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by alex_lav on Sunday April 14, 2024 @09:19PM (#40036132)
Your use case is valid, I’m just kind of curious why they’re on your guest network if you don’t trust them? Like an AirBnB or something?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by snapplebobapple on Sunday April 14, 2024 @10:36PM (#40036570)
Worse than an airbnb, my relatives when they visit, lol
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by cjk2 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:40PM (#40034287)
I reckon the majority of VPN sales are actually people being bombarded by adverts and sponsorships for VPNs and think that is actually of benefit. I am constantly bombarded by questions on which VPN product to use from people who are even unaware you can steal content.

"Are you downloading films from anywhere?"

"Huh what from Disney Plus?"

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by mbesto on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:25PM (#40035021)
Except that use-case doesn't even work because any service worth a salt just blocks the VPN's IP addresses. For example: US citizen living in US goes to the UK and uses VPN service to watch US-based netflix. Netflix blocks this.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by BrandoElFollito on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:52PM (#40034375)
Torrenting and buying a service cheaper are two examples.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by superkuh on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:28PM (#40034650)
My ISP Comcast (sometimes called Xfinity) has regularly done MITM attacks that inject javascript into web pages since 2013. Surfing the web without tunneling my connection is unacceptable with an ISP that commits CFAA crimes like this. It is a valid use case for a VPN or VPS tunnel for the 30 million of us stuck with a comcast monopoly.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by tshaddox on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:24PM (#40034146)
Is "geofence bypass for region-locked content" actually “illicit”?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:27PM (#40034171)
> Is "geofence bypass for region-locked content" actually “illicit”?

Yes, in practically every jurisdiction. It’s wilful breach of contract, tortious interference with the content distributor’s licensing schemes and copyright infringement.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by chrisfinazzo on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:47PM (#40034767)
A notable exception being the use of a VPN to access region-protected content.

INAL, but while this use case might violate ToS, the case law suggests that courts deem this to be fair use provided you don't breech other laws in the process (e.g, copyrights).

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:56PM (#40034829)
Agree that it's the digital equivalent of jaywalking.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:49PM (#40034355)
Unless you have any explicit court case decisions to the contrary, I'm calling bullshit. I did a simple Google search and could not find any examples of someone being sued or prosecuted for region bypass.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:56PM (#40034404)
> Unless you have any explicit court case decisions to the contrary

I also don’t think there is prosecutorial precedent for murdering someone with a sea cucumber; that doesn’t make it licit (or legal).

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:36PM (#40035506)
When was the last time you heard of anyone murdering someone with a sea cucumber? People obviously use VPNs all the time for region bypass, and have for years, so if anyone had an issue with it it surely would have had some relevant legal proceedings.

Laws only mean what courts say they mean. Besides that, I have simply never heard any argument of region bypass being illegal or otherwise illicit, and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by FireBeyond on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:14PM (#40034945)
> tortious interference with the content distributor’s licensing schemes

No it's not.

Tortious interference with a business relationship is no doubt what you're referring to here, but it's a long bow with multiple layers of indirection. It is "intentionally acting to prevent someone from successfully establishing or maintaining business relationships with others".

Miramax, as a content distributor, might license their content to Netflix.

You are a customer of Netflix.

Now say you are a customer of NordVPN.

For one, NordVPN isn't trying to prevent you maintaining a business relationship with Netflix. Nor is it trying to prevent Netflix having a business relationship with Miramax.

NordVPN may provide you means by which you can choose to be in violation of your TOS with Netflix. It's not acting to ensure you are.

Netflix doesn't have to -allow- this, hence VPN/proxy detection. But they have recourse, drop you as a customer, for you, the customer's, actions, not for NordVPN's actions. Miramax can't argue that NordVPN acted to interfere with their licensing scheme with Netflix.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by JumpCrisscross on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:09PM (#40035322)
> Miramax can't argue that NordVPN acted to interfere with their licensing scheme with Netflix

No, but they could argue that the VPN user interfered with their licensing scheme. (If everyone in a region circumvented geoblocks, why would someone in that region pay for regional rights to that content?) They wouldn’t, because it’s not worth it.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by raxxorraxor on Monday April 15, 2024 @08:10AM (#40039489)
This is false, it is not illegal. You might be in violation of a specific contract, but that is far from it being illegal. For example Steam might ban you if you circumvent a region lock. Reason for that is that there are other legal requirements for them as a market place.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by averageRoyalty on Thursday April 18, 2024 @08:40PM (#40082262)
> This is false, it is not illegal.

I highly doubt you know the laws in every region globally. This may be true in yours, but it's not a good idea to make such blanket, objective statements online.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by cyanydeez on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:55PM (#40034823)
...piracy
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by tim333 on Monday April 15, 2024 @09:56AM (#40040601)
There's also bypassing nanny software in coffee shops. I've had checking a word meaning on Urban Dictionary and checking the odds of Trump winning 2024 blocked by that. I guess for naughty words and gambling?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by elorant on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:13PM (#40034057)
I buy them so I can have country specific ips
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by ponector on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:52PM (#40034378)
Which vpn provider do you use? I found it is somethimes a nightmare to use some of them due to blacklisted ip and endless captcha.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by elorant on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:38PM (#40034719)
Mullvad
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by Mountain_Skies on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:31PM (#40034204)
I felt stupid when someone told me what the 'roses in a glass' tubes that were sold in convenience stores were really used for, but I guess it never occurred to me that crack pipes would be something these places would want to be associated with. At least it restored my faith in romantic gestures a bit to know people weren't buying them as a token of love.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by ssl-3 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:49PM (#40034357)
The bodega sells whatever people want to buy, as long as it doesn't get the bodega in trouble for doing so.

Beer, wine, booze, tobacco, and vapes are obvious, but things like cough medicine (dextromethorphan), diarrhea pills (loperamide), little roses in neat glass tubes, and air dusters (let's kill some brain cells!) are perhaps less-obvious.

The bodega wants to be associated with being the place where a person can stop in and buy anything, from a can of soup to a pair of pants.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by BrandoElFollito on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:01PM (#40034437)
What's the deal with loperamide?

I once asked why levothyrox, a drug to compensate a dying thyroid, is so regulated (at least in France). It's not like it's psychotic or something, it is just a hormone. Turns out people were buying it expecting weight loss...

It's because of such idiots that people whose life is already complicated gets it even more.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by ssl-3 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:09PM (#40035325)
It's an opiate, and some opiate addicts like loperamide. It's certainly not the fix they're looking for, but some of them like it enough that -- unlike seemingly every other OTC drug they stock -- it is kept behind the counter at the Dollar General near me, so that a would-be buyer has to ask for it.

And that's not a result of regulation (anyone can buy as much as they want), but is rather a result of stock shrink. It tends to disappear in some less-than-savory neighborhoods.

(I use loperamide occasionally for its main intended purpose of settling my gut down enough that I can do something other than hang out near a bathroom while I quickly dehydrate, and more than once it has been legitimately hard to find in some areas when I've needed to buy more.)

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by madog on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:18PM (#40034569)
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by EGreg on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:11PM (#40034042)
You mean like vibrating massagers?

Did you know the original vibrator was a medical device by doctors to automate treatment of Hysteria?

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by zaroth on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:18PM (#40034091)
Haha, lookup what “hysteria” was and the medical “treatment” devised to “cure” it.

We might have a long way yet to go as a species, but we’ve sure come a long way.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jiggawatts on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:01PM (#40034441)
We still have chiropractors and Chinese herbal medicine dispensaries.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yosito on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:46PM (#40035175)
The thing that bothers me is that we've had these things for so long, but no one does any actual research about them, so we still can't say that we know they don't work, but only that we don't know that they work. And "we don't know that they work" doesn't really convince people who say "thousands of years of tradition say that they work, and my great aunt was healed by it".
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jiggawatts on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:48PM (#40035572)
Research has been done, and has shown herbal medicines to not work[1], to nobody's surprise. Sure, there's not a huge amount of research into the matter, but this is comparable to the small amount of research time sunk into verifying if prayer can cure cancer.

Nonsense like "rhino horns look like an erect penis, so surely they will give you erections" should be dismissed without further discussion, but unfortunately a multi-billion dollar industry continues to wipe out rare and endangered species for magic cures that can't possibly work.

[1] A large subset of such medications are basically stimulants that make patients feel better but do more harm than good. My father in law was scammed this way by a herbal doctor that gave him such huge doses as to cause heart damage.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by yosito on Sunday April 14, 2024 @09:45PM (#40036283)
> Research has been done, and has shown herbal medicines to not work

Plenty of herbal medicines are effective. Which is why we need research to understand which ones are, and which ones are bullshit.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by jiggawatts on Monday April 15, 2024 @07:32AM (#40039134)
We have done this research, and the result is called "medicine" now instead of "herbal medicine".

Aspirin used to be extracted from tree bark.

Opium and morphine is the juice of the opium poppy.

Penicillin is from a mould.

Botox is from a bacteria.

Heck, there's an entire subset of the pharma industry running around testing every damned plant, weed, and flower to see if it has some sort of useful effect! There's even been movies made about this! https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104839/

We've tested herbal medicines, and use the pure extracts from those that do actually work every day in every country.

That doesn't mean the guy selling dried tiger penis should be allowed to open shop next to a pharmacy and claim mysterious properties "unknown to science".

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by HenryBemis on Sunday April 14, 2024 @04:17PM (#40034087)
I assume you get downvoted due to the (not much) relevance of your example to the VPN discussion. As for the accuracy: Yes!

1) https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/technology-orgasm

2) https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201303...

3) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181107-the-history-of-t...

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by pgraf on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:31PM (#40034671)
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by IAmNotACellist on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:36PM (#40035507)
Or all those Nickelodeon commercials for wacky wiggling pens that are sooo hard to write with.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by fny on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:31PM (#40034669)
NYC has Mullvad ads plastered everywhere. They bill themselves as protection from corporate surveillance. This is not wink-wink advertising. It’s an attempt to swindle somewhat tech literate people through a lie.

Sure you and everyone else on HN know what a VPN for, but that’s not the case for 97% of the people on a subway car who see their latest campaign.

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by eipi10_hn on Sunday April 14, 2024 @07:08PM (#40035318)
What lie?
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by bayindirh on Sunday April 14, 2024 @06:04PM (#40034886)
Funny thing is, in my most recent trip, hotel's wireless network information contained a note which can be summarized as follows:

"Our hotel uses unencrypted wifi, so if you want any kind of privacy on hotel network, please use a VPN, kthxbye."

Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by gs17 on Sunday April 14, 2024 @09:09PM (#40036061)
I've seen a lot of VPN ads that specifically advertise how you can take advantage of regional pricing and get around geoblocking for various services.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by crossroadsguy on Sunday April 14, 2024 @09:19PM (#40036131)
This is exactly what it is. Almost everyone I know here in my country, which has not (yet) gone China, who uses a VPN does so exclusively to access sites and services that are banned or not reachable here (read porn, p2p, and geo-limited services like Hulu, and Spotify before it was released here etc). No one, absolutely no one, uses it for privacy and security.
Re:Personal VPN Services are Snake-Oil by throwaway2037 on Monday April 15, 2024 @10:08AM (#40040747)
Hongkong? Taiwan?