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Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway81523 on Monday March 04, 2024 @07:30PM (#39597969)
AWS didn't acquire a nuclear reactor. THey bought a data center park that is sited next to an existing nuclear power station. It's interesting news but less crazy as the headline made it sound,
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Scoundreller on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:15PM (#39598258)
That's gotta save a bundle on transmission and distribution charges. I wonder if industrial users get better deals on that, because my utility bills mostly not for the gas/electricity generation.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by XorNot on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:21PM (#39598291)
Consistent power demand from a nuclear reactor is a much more cost-effective way for a reactor to run - I imagine a datacenter is a good client because they're basically optimized to sit at a consistent level of power consumption.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by steelbrain on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:27PM (#39598338)
> because they're basically optimized to sit at a consistent level of power consumption.

Is that really so? I was under the impression that even data centers go through peak and bottom usage as do most online services.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by toast0 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:36PM (#39598413)
Depends on what the data center does, and what time period we're considering. 1990s data centers probably didn't have very dynamic power consumption, as 1990s computers generally didn't.

A modern datacenter serving some consumer facing service likely sees a big difference in cpu usage and thus power usage between peak and off peak.

Otoh, if it's doing non-interactive data processing, it could be near 100% capacity consistently.

Personally, I'm guessing AWS has a noticable peak and trough on power. But if it makes sense, they do have the spot market which could be used to attract or repel load in order to hit a consumption target.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by schoen on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:52PM (#39599225)
I still remember hearing and myself promoting the concept of "idle computing capacity" in the 1990s (because of the idea that computers would consume the same resources whether or not they were actively running jobs).

https://hbr.org/2001/03/harnessing-the-power-of-idle-compute...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed.net

For a while I was in charge of the EFF Cooperating Computing Award. When it was announced, the announcement said

> However, the computer industry produces millions of new computers each year, which sit idle much of the time, running screen savers or waiting for the user to do something. EFF is encouraging people to pool their computing power over the Internet, to work together to share this massive resource.

That was in the 1990s. :-)

It's funny to think of just how inaccurate this became for subsequent CPU and chipset architecture, I guess because of convergent trends in customers wanting to save power for ecological, financial, and mobile device battery life reasons.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by narnarpapadaddy on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:31PM (#39599470)
I enjoyed this self-aware and reflective insight. Thanks for sharing.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by actionfromafar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:30AM (#39601167)
Yeah, it was so weird when CPUs started sprouting first heat sinks, then fans over the heat sinks. :-)
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by simne on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @02:34PM (#39620233)
> how inaccurate this became for subsequent CPU and chipset architecture

You are right. My previous computer was AMD Athlon, and even it near halved consumption when idle.

Modern machines extremely power saving, because desktop CPUs shared many features from Notebook platforms (for example speed step frequency change), and I see more than 6x difference of consumption of whole machine, even when I myself too conservative to use sleep/idle modes, because some programs don't behave adequate in such environment.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by itronitron on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:10AM (#39600274)
Seems like it would also be useful to 'make ice' for later use if power consumption would otherwise dip too low.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Turing_Machine on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @11:48PM (#39612434)
> Personally, I'm guessing AWS has a noticable peak and trough on power. But if it makes sense, they do have the spot market which could be used to attract or repel load in order to hit a consumption target.

Sure. Even for the on-demand stuff they have a vested interest in reducing power consumption as much as they can.

They charge the customers a flat rate per hour, so every joule they can cut out is money in their pocket.

It would be different if they were charging the customers by the kwH or something.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway0665 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:59PM (#39598576)
I imagine AWS spot instances and discount off peak pricing helps to flatten that curve a little.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by jnaina on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:50AM (#39600495)
Agreed. Running less time critical Spot instances for batch processing is in the increase especially in the Banking sectors. We have retired whole banks of on-prem servers that sit idle 80% of the month and only get used end of month or year. The TCO cost analysis was the clincher.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by gottorf on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:32PM (#39598369)
Yeah, I'd be curious about this, as well. A garden-variety 1U server sitting in a rack somewhere could be pulling 80W at idle and 1KW at load.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by XorNot on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:38PM (#39598423)
Sure, any individual server: but amortized over 1000s? You'll develop an average just from traffic, and it'll be a lot higher then the bottom end - since otherwise why have the datacenter? Why not use spare capacity in your other datacenters?

The trick is that you sign a contract with the utility to guarantee a particular type of usage - and utilities love people who burn Watt-hours rather then Volt-Amps (i.e. a power factor near 1) since they're a lot easier to service, and people who promise to use power fairly consistently.

The utility says "we'll give you a lower overall rate, provided you promise to consume at least this much electricity" - in practice of course, you could consume less but you'll pay for it no matter what.

But compute is great for this model: it's fast to move applications onto and off servers, so hitting that minimum is easy.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by toast0 on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:33PM (#39598795)
> You'll develop an average just from traffic, and it'll be a lot higher then the bottom end - since otherwise why have the datacenter? Why not use spare capacity in your other datacenters?

Because when the sun is up over the Pacific ocean, everyone is asleep, and all of your datacenters are quiet.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by dangoldin on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:01PM (#39598986)
That's when your batch jobs are running. Partially kidding but companies will wait until there's lower demand to take advantage of spot pricing.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Scoundreller on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:47PM (#39599555)
Or routing latency insensitive traffic there. Do I care where my backups are stored? No. (well, I kinda do for geological/weather reasons, but put it on Mars for all I care)
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Waterluvian on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:13PM (#39598679)
An API to say “only use the cheaper off peak compute” could make a lot of sense for numerous use cases.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by jethro_tell on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:23PM (#39598732)
So, spot instances?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Waterluvian on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:32PM (#39598792)
I looked it up and it seems like that’s what they’re selling yeah! Though aws advertising really doesn’t want to say how they’re so cheap on their front page!
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by tnmom on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:06PM (#39599023)
Their marginal cost for you using otherwise-unutilized capacity is near zero; probably just power really. So if it’s a choice between getting $0 and $0.1 for a $1/hr instance, that’s an easy choice.

You just have to be sure to make the spot stuff juuust unreliable enough that people can’t run their full workloads on it all the time.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by skeeter2020 on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:19PM (#39599402)
if you've got the engineering in place for distributed fault tolerance you can run a lot of your workload on pre-emptable spot instances. There's an entire "as a service" product space that does this, abstracting away the challenging parts and arbitraging the difference
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by _zoltan_ on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:26AM (#39600361)
could you name a few such aaS service?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by simne on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @02:22PM (#39620072)
You are totally right. I worked as admin on few projects with dedicated servers, and ALL have two classic peaks (~10:00, 16:00..19:00) and near zero consumption at night (00:00..06:00), all these are now very close to civilian power consumption :) .

Some time, before CDN invention, very large sites distributed traffic between few time zones around world and so they distributed load for a whole 24h. But when CDNs appeared, local peaks returned.

And unfortunately, not much things possible to run at classic DC environment, nearly only ML tasks. For example, for classic supercomputing tasks, typical DCs have too slow network (too large latency for things like C++ MPI).

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by deelowe on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:14PM (#39599059)
DC power demand is anything but constant. This is getting worse with ML clusters. There's an entire cottage industry focused on optimizing power utilization. There are huge incentives for DC operators who can guarantee consistent high power utilization.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by zrm on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:52AM (#39601330)
> This is getting worse with ML clusters.

Is it? What causes there to be unused capacity when there is currently so much demand for training?

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by deelowe on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:45PM (#39608957)
Training workloads are highly variable and mostly consistent across the cluster (all systems ramp up and down at the same time).
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by singhrac on Monday March 04, 2024 @10:13PM (#39599048)
It has no impact, because nuclear reactors are base loads, i.e. they are essentially never turned off. The only real difference is transmission line losses, and those aren't very significant.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by skeeter2020 on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:16PM (#39599381)
Amazon's single solar plant for their new Canada west region is 5% of all solar installed capacity in the province. It's about .5% of total power, which is big enough to influence the quasi-market-based pricing. Pretty crazy...
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Scoundreller on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:45PM (#39599544)
This one? https://www.stantec.com/en/projects/canada-projects/t/traver...

I give less credit to systems that just "agree to buy the output from a distant generator via the grid" (my own quote). Can I say I support coal electricity generation by saying 100% of my electricity comes from coal when it's really some mix that I can't control?

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by rebuilder on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @01:01AM (#39599946)
If your contract with your energy company says they will buy enough wind/solar/whatever to cover your consumption, you can say you support that. But when it comes to how much, I think basically you can take “credit” for pushing the energy mix a little in the direction of your choice, but you can’t say your energy usage is all fossils or fossil free or whatever and feel all smug about it.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by dmurray on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:40AM (#39601671)
Can I say "I don't get any of my income from dealing drugs" when the $20s I get from my bank ATM are some mix I don't control?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway2990 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:13PM (#39598248)
Was the headline in HM changed cos it says campus so it didn’t sound like they got a power plant…
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Dylan16807 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:49PM (#39598506)
You don't think "960MW nuclear data center campus" sounds like the power plant is part of the campus? I do.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway2990 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:30AM (#39599783)
No? It specified campus…
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @01:07AM (#39599972)
Please explain your reasoning about the word campus. You seem to think it's obvious but I'm not seeing it.

A campus is a group of buildings and land that are part of one institution. I've been in multiple campuses that have power plants (and where the primary purpose of the campus is not generating power).

The idea of a datacenter campus that makes its own power is a reasonable one.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway2990 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:40AM (#39600439)
They didn’t say they bought a power plant. They bought a campus next to the power plant. That implies that it’s not generating power. How you could be confused I don’t understand. I get that headlines are often misleading or sensationalised. But this one isn’t.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @02:46AM (#39600475)
> They didn’t say they bought a power plant. They bought a campus next to the power plant. That implies that it’s not generating power. How you could be confused I don’t understand. I get that headlines are often misleading or sensationalised. But this one isn’t.

The title doesn't say "next to". It says "960MW nuclear data center campus".

What makes it "nuclear"? Well in this case it's because it's next to a nuclear power plant, but it would be just as valid to use that wording for a campus that contains a nuclear power plant. In fact I think the latter is more straightforward.

And funnily enough if you look at the picture, it looks like it's one big campus too!

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by mlfreeman on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:40PM (#39598443)
The headline sounds a lot more supervillain-ish than the article. Probably done on purpose in pursuit of the almighty click.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Dylan16807 on Monday March 04, 2024 @08:45PM (#39598477)
What's supervillain-ish about a company owning a datacenter and adjacent power plant?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by TaylorAlexander on Monday March 04, 2024 @11:25PM (#39599439)
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by Dylan16807 on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @01:16AM (#39600009)
Is the implication that nuclear power plants are inherently supervillainous?

If amazon buys a power plant, my only thoughts about an increase in villainy from the status quo fall into the "monopoly" category.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by preisschild on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:15AM (#39601489)
Nah

But Dr. No had a pool type reactor :D

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:04PM (#39609142)
I mean, I take the comment about supervillains as mostly a joke, so I don’t really feel a need to strictly interrogate it for factual accuracy.

But also I do think it fits. Looking at super villains, they’re usually just powerful people with slightly unusual property, who also happen to be evil.

Lex Luthor’s company Lexcorp was an aerospace company. In the first Superman movie, Luthor was a pretty weird and relatively unremarkable guy. In the James Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies the super villain was just a guy with a global media company who created calamity and murder so that he could report on it first.

Nuclear power and radiation have often been themes for comic book heroes and villains. I think it’s reasonable to read the (misleading) headline and think “oh great now Bezos owns a nuclear power plant, he’s going to become a super villain” as the sort of non-serious comment prevalent on the internet. People say the same about Musk all the time.

I don’t think it’s meant to be taken literally.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by tibbydudeza on Monday March 04, 2024 @09:09PM (#39598659)
Well not so strange really.

Blue Origin is owned by Bezos and NASA is looking at a nuclear fission propulsion system for a Mars mission :).

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by ENGNR on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @12:34AM (#39599806)
They have some pretty hefty minimum use and right to use options tied to the nuclear reactor though. And it says the intention is to consume 960MW, which a very quick search says is roughly equivalent to the entire output of a typical nuclear reactor.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by preisschild on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:00AM (#39600553)
The NPP has 2x 1350 MWe boiling water reactors

960MWe is 71% of one of them.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by tutfbhuf on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:07AM (#39600595)
Does anyone know how many NVIDIA data center GPUs can be run off 960MW?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by chx on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:12AM (#39601049)
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16792/nvidia-unveils-pcie-ver...

The 80GB version runs 300W on PCIe and 400W on SXM4. (Which is my third reason to hate the current wave of "AI" bullshit, the first two being industry scale copyright violation and barely better than slave labor).

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by kaliqt on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @04:44AM (#39601272)
Stop complaining about usage, from crypto to AI, they all have relevant uses to push the world forward.

Think about how to increase quality of life and output, the companies will automatically increase efficiency to increase profits and reduce costs.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by fcantournet on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:08AM (#39602312)
Forward to what ?
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by blitzar on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @09:31AM (#39603918)
> companies will automatically increase efficiency to increase profits

My sarcasm detector went off when I got to this bit.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by foofie on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @05:56AM (#39601804)
> Stop complaining about usage, from crypto to AI, they all have relevant uses to push the world forward.

Can you elaborate on what you have in mind when you clam that crypto is "pushing the world forward"?

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by chupasaurus on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @06:37AM (#39602090)
It pushes the world closer towards heat death of the Universe.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by bawana on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @07:29AM (#39602464)
Since hubble said space is expanding, that means there will always be more room for entropy to increase. We will not have a heat death. Rather we are heading towards isolation and solitary confinement. I wonder if ET is behind this
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by bumby on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:22AM (#39604523)
Do you think there is always a positive relationship between production/consumption and quality of life? It seems to me this statement confuses what we should be ultimately optimizing for.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by whatisyour on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:00AM (#39604254)
100,000 GPU based nodes = 100MW (Look at Frontier supercomputer usage)

So, 1 million GPU-based servers, which is just double of what Meta is planning to use for its own supercomputer. So, not that much.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by simne on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @02:46PM (#39620410)
As I hear, for ML machines is normal to have 16 GPUs, if each consume 250W, totally 4KW per machine, so need 250,000 machines for 1GW (for 40MW would be 10000 machines, so 240,000 for 960MW).

240k machines is a big number, I myself seen DC for 40k machines, but they talking about campus, so reasonable assume, there would be not one DC but few DC buildings.

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by simne on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @03:02PM (#39620639)
I have googled, but at the moment have only this (will add more later):

50 MW

www.google.com/maps/search/Apple+Mesa/@33.3470187,-111.6092537,1311m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by afp14 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @12:03AM (#39612518)
As I understand it, in fact 960MW is quite close to 1 jigawatt, which is the typical energy required to power a Delorean-class time machine.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by starspangled on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @03:36AM (#39600790)
How crazy does the headline make it sound? They're a book store that got into the online cloud business. They got into the chip design business. I don't know the industries to know whether it would make sense for them to buy power stations, but it doesn't sound outright crazy like Nike buying the Hoover Dam would.
Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by datadrivenangel on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:41AM (#39604817)
And a 10 year Power Purchasing Agreement with the nuclear plant.

So they didn't buy it, they're just leasing half the output!

Re:AWS acquires Talen's 960MW nuclear data center campus in ... by throwaway118899 on Wednesday March 06, 2024 @05:26AM (#39614403)
Every article I’ve seen posted to HN about this topic has some cute or clickbait title to overhype the nuclear aspect.