I haven't been able to find out more about this, or how much it actually influenced him or his preparation for Kind of Blue, but it's about as strong an endorsement for Barry Harris's work as it gets.

You mean George Russell? And my impression is that it was influential with Miles because it was one of the early examples of the modal/horizontal approach being fleshed out as text over and above it being LCC specifically.

Harris' approach is based on what he calls the sixth diminished scale.

Yes, George Russell. Barry Harris just keeps popping up in my youtube algorithm.

- The whole ensemble plays an arrangement of the melody of the tune

- After playing the melody through, the group jumps into a series of alternating solos, in which each band member improvises new melodic ideas on top of the chord progression of the original melody

- After the solos are done, the original melody is returned to, either in full or an part, to recapitulate the initial theme and bring the performance to a conclusion

Do this (more or less) for each track on the album.

It's really not necessarily obvious at first. It can help to follow along with sheet music.

But what is the genius? Or, how is this particular jazz album more genius than another? Say, how is it more genius than "Relaxin' with the Miles Davis Quintet" which was recorded earlier (and also very good)? I think a lot of it is the particular ensemble on this record. Miles brought together a lot of truly exceptional musicians, and they all brought their own bit of genius to their own performance.

If you have a jazz performance with a great trumpeter, paired with an okay pianist, an okay drummer, and an okay bassist, then the whole performance likely won't be genius. But if you pair a genius trumpeter with a genius pianist, a genius drummer, etc., then you'll likely get better results. Especially if they are all kind of genius in the same direction.

On top of that, this particular album was exploring a new compositional style that emphasized modal composition rather than the more typical dominaint-tonic-oriented composition. There was a freshness to it, both for listeners at the time, and for the players themselves. They were exploring this sort of sound for the first time, and were enjoying it, bringing that mentality to how they performed.

[0] Roughly indeed! I don't remember offhand if every track on Kind of Blue follows this exactly.

For example, I have studied a lot of classical repertoire in order to get my technique together to improve my jazz playing, and while I appreciate those compositions, I don't really listen to them for pleasure. My opinion about their value as works of art is not based on whether I enjoy them or not. I don't enjoy many types of food but I recognize that they have enormous value to people who do enjoy them. We like what we like, and we shouldn't judge styles on the basis of whether we like them or not.

If you listen to a record like Kind of Blue and it doesn't do anything for you, don't sweat it. You wouldn't be a better person for liking it, and no true lover of jazz would judge you on the basis of whether you like that record or not. If you're genuinely curious, listen to other jazz records from the era, maybe you'll like those. If you don't, no big whoop. There's a lot of music to love. Listen to what you like.

If you’re really interested then listen to it enough so that it becomes somewhat familiar. You’ll be able to distinguish the structure from the improv and hear the interaction between the two. Bill Evans was a classical pianist. Maybe just focus on the piano and try to see what it’s doing in the song.

My Favorite Things by John Coltrane may be a better place to start though. It really emphasizes a familiar melody.

When someone asks me for an introduction to jazz, I point them at Kind of Blue. I'm not sure what the grandparent comment is looking for.

[0] https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0

All the extra stuff is great, but the original is the perfect album.

What music do you typically like? There will definitely be a gateway to jazz in there somewhere.

Yes, there are many people out there who love music but don't appreciate jazz. That's okay.

Many people, including myself and (apparently) the poster, don't understand jazz, at least not this kind of jazz. There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening"), but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis. And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it".

Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows.

That's not obvious at all, and you remain obnoxious. Huge leap to go to from "understanding jazz" to "is this even music?" as the other poster pointed out.

>There are jazz artists that move me (you'd probably consider them of lesser quality or "easy listening")

Lol. I see, you've got a chip on your shoulder, and you are taking it out on me.

> And it seems like every time we ask for directions, we get the same incredibly obnoxious answers, that range from "oh my God do you even have ears" to "if you need it explained, you'll never get it"

It wasn't asking for "how to listen to it" that elicited the response the poster received, as was expressed to you numerous times.

>Maybe I'll never get it, maybe there's a bit of pretentiousness in the fandom, maybe a bit of both, who knows.

Once again there's a huge difference between "getting" something and recognizing that there is melody.

> but I've never understood what's so amazing about Miles Davis

Well, he has a gigantic body of music and is considered one of the most important figures in Jazz because the drive and diversity of his music has pushed the genre forward throughout his entire career. Never met anyone that thought "Kind of Blue" was a "mishmash" of sounds and I still do not understand how anyone could get to that conclusion. They barely even play over each other. It's probably some of the most relaxed jazz out there. Please stop being so annoying and drop the chip on your shoulder.

As a more accessible starting point I'd actually recommend Miles Davis's Porgy and Bess album. It's a hybrid of Gershwin's composed music and jazz. Being more structured than most jazz recordings it will give you some context/framework to enjoy the jazzy parts. Most of the songs are short and digestible.

Familiarise yourself with the standards and then let the infinitude of variations of them be your journey to the PRACTICE of jazz

I love lamb vindaloo too but if you take a bite and don't like it..maybe a few repeated exposures might adjust your palette or it just might not be to your taste.

Nothing wrong with that. So What though was just instant love for me.

It certainly helps to be a musician though too. I can't really separate Coltrane's playing from the appreciation for his virtuosity.

Especially since Paris was substantially less smokey, for all the French stereotypes.

I saw a guy play jazz in Miami two months ago and he lives in Tokyo. I'm going to see what he's up to and where he plays. Email me if you want to know what I find out.

Type in "Jazz Kissa" on google maps when you're wandering around these towns and you'll find little bars with great hifi setups that exclusively play jazz music. The reviews are pretty good for figuring out if they're worth a stop or not.

I made an effort to stop by a few on my last trip and had some great experiences.

I think it may be one of the Bay Area's best kept secrets.

I'm glad to see it's packed (albeit only holds ~25-30 people), nearly 365 days of the year.

Got into jazz when I lived in Oakland and I still miss Jerry Dean and KJAZ: http://timhodges.net/SPIRIT/index1.html

Eventually learned about Django Reinhardt, which led me to Django the web framework and the rest of your and Jacob’s work: https://jacobian.org/help/

Thanks so much, Simon!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_K%C3%B6ln_Concert

One of the most notable things about this album is that, while there were a few false starts, they used the first complete take for each track, which is astounding. I personally think it's the greatest achievement in the history of music.

I like Miles' quote about it: "If I'd known it was going to be such a hit, I'd have asked for more money."

I always wonder what they thought at the time. "Well, I guess that was pretty good." maybe?

They had likely played together enough that they planned to just do one take unless there was a hiccup.

Aside from the hubris of asserting something so bold in the first place, it can not too controversial of a take to state that "Blue in Green" is the finest musical recording ever produced. If I had one, single song to take with me to a desert island, this is the one. The bowed bass at the end gives me chills every time.

Outside of that, the album overall has an association for me. I started buying jazz records in my teens in the 80s. No one guided my listening or made recommendations. I eventually came upon Kind of Blue and felt it was special. I had no idea how famous and well-loved it was. I find it interesting that even in a “blind taste test”, I converged with the critical massess.

I tried it with Blue in Green and it actually did supply a list of tonally, harmonically, musically similar tracks. None were as good, of course, but still it was good to get more of the same vibe.

It still sounds fantastically weird.

It took me a few days on a 56k modem (thanks to failed downloads) to finally get one of the full 20+ minute tracks from the album. I think it might have been Pharoah's Dance mislabeled as the track BB... so many mislabeled songs on Napster back then.

This was around the time the Complete BB Sessions [1] came out... so that was one of the first albums I ever asked my parents for as a gift.

A few years after I got the album, I was traveling to a city, and while walking around downtown I heard one sound that sounded like it was identical to a sound from Pharoah's Dance. Whether intentional or not, I thought some of the cacophony of these tracks was intended to represent the chaotic energy that a big city can have.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complete_Bitches_Brew_Sess...

https://i.imgur.com/2GMwXPo.jpg

John McLaughlin was how I wound up at Bitches Brew - and got introduced to Miles. BB was a departure from the early JMC I was used to and it took me a while to bite into it. Hearing Holland and DeJohnette helped.

A few years later I was all in. Saw Miles on my 19th bday.

But on re-listening, I could hear it immediately. And then I appreciated all the more what a good edit can do for music.

But I’m partial to Miles from the Bitches Brew era as well.

I really got hooked on the reissue of the “bootleg“ 1969 European concerts a few years back. It gave a whole new perspective on his style in those years, it’s different than BB in some ways.

[1] https://www.discogs.com/fr/release/5036048-Miles-Davis-Miles...

In this version: https://youtu.be/BBeXF_lnj_M?si=kPTUsAB19_RyECO5

Brahms symphony 4 - 1st movement Brahms symphony 3 - 3rd movement Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 3

Jazz

Duke Ellington & John Coltrane In a Sentimental Mood My Little Brown Book

Dave Brubeck Quartet Koto Song

Rock

Pink Floyd Echos (from Meddle ) Animals

greatest choral music ever written

My potentially hot take is Blue in Green is Coltrane's best solo on the album. It's purely a taste thing, the best way I can describe it is Coltrane frequently breaks my sense of immersion in a song.

I don't know if it's because Adderly wasn't on that one or what, but it's pretty much the only track where I feel where he gave the track what it needed instead of what he wanted.

Example: George Benson’s guitar in Freddie Hubbard’s First Light title track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwvxiBEPDdA

https://dave.autonoma.ca/playlists/blues/dancing

Apparently there are issues with the videos on Safari/iPhone. A hint to a fix would be welcome.

I just don’t get jazz at all. It’s fun to mess around on stage, and play free form. But it also ends up sounding that way to the listener: like some mess that must be fun to play…

I was stuck on a long drive a couple of years back, driver had Swissjazz FM on the whole time. Felt like a form of torture ;)

But as I say, I agree with you on most other Jazz though. And I'm convinced that about 80% of the people that go around saying they love jazz are just pretending to.

Also, along with Bluegrass, jazz is SO closed off to people who'd like to join in and play with a group. It's filled with gatekeepers and judgemental jerks. For instance, criticizing you for bringing a guita they don't agree with, "you can't play jazz with that, go home and get another something else there, Eddie Van Halen". Seriously, it can be that bad.

That's not been my experience playing jazz around my local area. I've never played jazz in New York but I have heard that all manner of ungentlemanly behaviour goes on in jams there and I suspect I'd be on the receiving end of it if I dared to try. Presumably acceptance of the newcomer is determined by the size of the existing pool of talent. Rural England is not well supplied with jazz musicians of any skill level (or discerning audiences) so we can't really afford to treat them rudely. I'm not really a guitarist, but the last time I played one at a jam it was one of these: https://www.andertons.co.uk/brands/gl-guitars/asat-guitars/g...

But what is your definition of "jam" then? Is it improvised at all?

I have the opposite approach; I like classical music very much and have listened to it a lot, but for many years now I've only been improvising; the idea is to sound in real time as if it were composed and practiced; meanwhile I can play a whole band live myself (e.g. http://rochus-keller.ch/?p=1268). I've always found it a torture to read and learn a piece and always play it back the same (correct) way.

Musically it's a combination of atmosphere and passion with a cerebral edge, with harmonies that are spicy and colourful but not atonally exotic and incomprehensible.

It's improvised moment-by-moment riffs and conversations over a chord chart and some loose linear and structural traditions. It doesn't have the grand architecture of classical music or the cheeky crowd-pleasing crudity and playfulness of pop.

Genres either hit you or they don't. It's fine not to like something.

Here's the tune Softly, As In A Morning Sunrise, as Sigmund Romberg wrote it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy_L8VVu7-c

And now, as a variety of jazz musicians heard it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSeFc3CP5Mk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlViBYcZpJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NG_wZFBM24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dofsqZrE5sU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaV51BuHfIw

Do you hear how the melodic theme is stated, before the players improvise over the same chord progression? Do you hear how fragments of the main melody are woven into the solos? Do you hear the interplay between the musicians as they rotate between accompaniment and soloing? Do you hear how each ensemble creates a distinct mood from the same basic starting point? If you do, then you're starting to hear the language of jazz.

Listen to the Brubeck Quartet's "Dave Digs Disney".

If you still "don't get" jazz after that experience, my guess would be that your formal training installed dogmatic opinions.

IMHO, that's so unusual in a jazz setting that it's almost always expressly declared as such - ie "free jazz" or "experimental". And even that relies primarily on preparation and practice to be done well.

IMHO, performing jazz is a delicate process of painting within the lines - so that you don't tread on the toes of everyone playing with you - lines you are all expected to know if you are going to get on stage and play a specific song together - while creating the illusion that you are all just messing about. And you are doing that while navigating a complex conjugation of harmonic structures, substitutions and alternatives, while seamlessly recombining the songs' melody with jazz idioms, rehearsed licks and runs, and admittedly, some improvisation, all while you try to say something new and original that your audience will be interested to hear.

So, you have to lean a lot on preparation and personal rehearsal (and group rehearsal), because you are listening, reacting and managing so many things at once that if you can't rely on muscle memory to keep up with the chord changes, and haven't sufficiently navigated several ways through them ahead of time (what if one of your bandmates decides to reharmonize some section in a way that precludes the scales you were planning to use to get through it?), you'll fall on your face.

Take a close look at Bach’s violin sonatas; they seem like jazz to me compared to a lot of his work; they have lots of wild chords with 7ths and 6ths and 2nds, they are wandering and improvisational feeling.

Some jazz gives me the same feeling you’re describing, and I think you’re onto something with it being fun to play… a lot of it is musician’s music. Watching sporting events gives me the same feeling… good for the players, not as good for me, I’d rather be playing, or doing something else.

There's so much going on in 'jazz' music, but for me personally I'm always listening to it (and all music, really) rhythmically first, and all the harmonic and melodic components, everything else, comes out of the rhythm. That tends to be the opposite approach of European classical music (which of course I like too).

I don't know what your taste in music is, but there's a ton of great music out there that falls under the label jazz. Since you're in the classical world, here's some recordings that might speak to you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VlOigfm-ww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMTHsK3MlzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIyCOAByDU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0O9L7KXkC0&list=OLAK5uy_l61...

And some live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BE_gi4YkA (my friend's group)

https://youtu.be/lhgaJ_kDLPg?feature=shared&t=23 (particularly Afro Blue)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuEVN3BTFHM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGY9HvChXk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9GhIyP_zI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM5Cj8yFkOQ

I don't know, the rabbit hole is deep I could go on forever.

This video is an excellent musing on creativity and learning that I think is relevant even for nonmusicians.

suggestions: Tony Williams Lifetime, Miles Davis 1969 - 1975, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jaco, Weather Report

Davis's music is pretty much about as pure rhythm as you can get outside of electronic music. it's so far beyond jazz that you can hear so many modern genres in something like On The Corner, it's crazy. and it was hated originally, too. jazz rejected evolution, so now it's stuck as some dead academic genre

Also, "classically trained" is irrelevant. Having a background on a specific kind of music doesn't grant you authority or insight into a different kind of music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sB5UkrkMu4

https://youtu.be/62tIvfP9A2w

There are some extremely great jazz musicians out there today.

Mark Guiliana on drums is as good as anyone ever too.

To the uninitiated but curious - start with their mind blowing covers and branch out from there.

It's a series of satirical "inspirational" drum instruction videos. Sadly, he stopped making new episodes a while ago.

Anything in the vein of Miles / Coltrane / Ornette Coleman etc

I always read that name as Skinny Puppy and it happened this time too

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL52RKVKBFM328OwddSMRQS9BY...

I would put Cassie Kinoshi on sax as my fav sax player too.

I don't know how any Jazz fan could not love Kokoroko.

https://youtu.be/zqNTltOGh5c

https://kindofbloop.com/

Sidenote, the author was sued to oblivion for his tribute album art:

https://waxy.org/2011/06/kind_of_screwed/

That is crazy, and eye-opening.

> It breaks my heart that a project I did for fun, on the side, and out of pure love and dedication to the source material ended up costing me so much — emotionally and financially. For me, the chilling effect is palpably real. I’ve felt irrationally skittish about publishing almost anything since this happened.

I feel sad for the author.