News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @12:44AM (#39558913)
Repeat after me:

There's no sure-fire way to automatically anonymize arbitrary customer data.

There's no sure-fire way to automatically anonymize arbitrary customer data.

There's no sure-fire way to automatically anonymize arbitrary customer data.

You can't anonymize it by hand. You can't anonymize it by machine. If you're taking blobs of customer data and dumping it into a machine, customer data can come out of the machine. Neither humans nor machines are error-free. If you believe DocuSign is going to do a perfect job, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by tomcam on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:06AM (#39559027)
Hey, can you recommend a super-simple way to automatically anonymize customer data?
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by simlevesque on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:36AM (#39559173)
The heat death of the universe
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by tomcam on Friday March 01, 2024 @02:17AM (#39559404)
Why do I never think of these things
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Etherlord87 on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:27AM (#39560133)
Source? I don't think physicists agree. For a while there was an idea getting popularity, that black holes erase information, but in the recent year I've seen some articles and youtube videos (didn't actually care to read/watch) with titles saying otherwise.

To my understanding, the idea behind the heat death of the Universe is that nothing interesting happens anymore, not that there is absolutely nothing.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by tomcam on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:39AM (#39560191)
> nothing interesting happens anymore, not that there is absolutely nothing.

Sorry, are you talking about the heat death of the universe or the last five Marvel movies?

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by TeMPOraL on Friday March 01, 2024 @10:25AM (#39562624)
Yes sirs, they are the same picture.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by aik on Friday March 01, 2024 @09:04AM (#39561856)
1. “The heat death of the universe” is my favorite HN comment of the decade.

2. The heat death of the universe does not mean one gigantic black hole. I’m just a hobbyist but my understanding of the theory is that black holes will continue to form, but through Hawking radiation, they eventually radiate out all their energy until it is all dispersed, ultimately leading to uniformity across the entire universe, max entropy, where “work” can no longer take place.

(It is an interesting question then whether information is actually destroyed through Hawking radiation?)

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Etherlord87 on Friday March 01, 2024 @11:50AM (#39563648)
Sorry, perhaps I should have marked the black hole as a tangent. The heat death of the universe is somewhen after all black holes "evaporated".
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by simlevesque on Tuesday March 05, 2024 @10:28AM (#39604612)
> 1. “The heat death of the universe” is my favorite HN comment of the decade

Thank you for saying that :)

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by webreac on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:33AM (#39559158)
rm is a good start, but you also need to ensure the disks are not sold to anyone.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bayindirh on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:45AM (#39559221)
When you enable TRIM, it's zeroed automatically, so you're 99% there with an rm.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bestham on Saturday March 02, 2024 @06:27PM (#39576781)
No, the point of enabling TRIM is to not induce further write amplification. The zeroing is deferred until the block that is trimmed is over written. It is released from the indefinite garbage collection that exists in a pure SSD implementation that does not know what blocks are important. Some firmwares answers with nothing when requesting a TRIMed block. Others answer with the content of the block as it is on NAND. Either way, the bits are most likely still on NAND.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bayindirh on Monday March 04, 2024 @07:04AM (#39589439)
I think it's dependent on the GC scheme of the SSD in question. From what I have seen, some drives defer it until they'll be written, some zero at the moment the sectors are TRIMmed and some wait for idle + timeout amount of time before working on these sectors.

I have a couple of external SSDs and USB flash drives start to flash their busy lights after letting them idle for a couple of minutes. These "bursts of activity" generally is proportional to the I/O work they have done before the idle period.

One of my flash drives did that GC/zeroing thing when it's ejected. After ejection and drive disconnect, its busy light flashed for some time depending on the work needs to be done. If you didn't hammer it when you used it, it did nothing, but if you did tons of work, it worked up to a minute or so after being ejected.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by aquir on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:46AM (#39559224)
Black hole and wait for radiate some out as Hawking Radiation
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by uKVZe85V on Friday March 01, 2024 @03:32AM (#39559812)
Not even certain this will be enough. Hawking radiation encodes the information that was thrown in. Sure at present it's a perfect mess, but who knows?
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by mceachen on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:10AM (#39559036)
I dunno, I read someplace that there’s no sure-fire way to do that.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:11AM (#39560361)
Microwave ovens, strong magnets (depending on the medium), shredders, blast furnaces, the hydraulic press from that YouTube channel, firing it into the sun...
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:07PM (#39564703)
Yeah, right after I figure out how to make a regex match open tags except XHTML self-contained tags.

If you're one of the lucky 10,000 that don't know the reference:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open...

And if you're one of the lucky 10,000 that don't know the other reference:

https://xkcd.com/1053/

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by pyuser583 on Saturday March 02, 2024 @07:46PM (#39577291)
Step 1: generate uuid. Step 2: encrypt customer data. Step 3: associate encrypted data with uuid; keep uuid in encrypted if metadata. Step 4: use uuid instead of data.

Obviously there are potential hiccups. But a lot of good can be done with encryption and metadata.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by theschreon on Friday March 01, 2024 @02:15AM (#39559387)
There's no sure-fire way to make a human who is processing a document manually never leak the information they read.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Etherlord87 on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:29AM (#39560147)
Sure, but if there's a law forbidding you to exceed a particular speed on the road, you can't do it anyway and say "you can't be perfectly safe anyway".

The analogy here is: there are laws regarding confidentiality that probably were broken here.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by theschreon on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:57AM (#39560274)
I agree. But at the same time, insisting on 100% certainty/safety would mean to not do anything at all and stick to the status quo forever. It boils down to cost-benefit-calculations.

While I agree that it is unacceptable to use customer data without consent (as suggested by OP's post), I disagree with the implicit assumption behind the comment that I responded to:

Namely the implicit assumption that human/biological intelligence/agents are somehow superior to artificial intelligence/agents in face of secrecy/confidentiality.

It boils down to the question whether it's possible or not to create algorithms that outperform humans in tasks involving secrecy and confidentiality.

While I can't think of any reason why that should not be possible in general, I agree that the current SOTA of generative LLMs is not sufficient for that.

Is throwing lots and lots of data and RLHF training on an LLM enough in order to make the probability of customer data leaks small enough to be acceptable?

I don't know. But I don't trust MBAs who salivate with dollar signs in their eyes to know either. And I fear that their lack of technical understanding will lead to bad decisions. And I fear those might lead to scandals that make Gemini's weird biases in image generation pale in comparison.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by ptx on Friday March 01, 2024 @03:35PM (#39566491)
> It boils down to cost-benefit-calculations.

Yes, the user bears the cost when their confidential data is leaked and the company derives the economic benefit of mishandling it, which is why this keeps happening.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by funcDropShadow on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:15AM (#39560384)
Actually there is. But let us not go there.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by pyuser583 on Saturday March 02, 2024 @07:52PM (#39577318)
I used to work with extremely sensitive data. My employer made it a point to hire people with memory disorders and intellectual disabilities to deal with raw data.

There was a young lady I had to reintroduce myself to every week or so. I think of her every so often.

I’m certain she doesn’t think of me.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Ferret7446 on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:38AM (#39559181)
There is, depending on the type, format, and volume of data.

Simply classify data into buckets for each value of each variable such that each unique combination of buckets for every variable contains at least N items for a suitably large number of N. It is then mathematically impossible to match an individual data point to any set of original data points less than N.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by robin_reala on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:43AM (#39559214)
I’ve read this three times now and I still don’t understand. Can you explain it in a different way?
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by 65a on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:47AM (#39559236)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-anonymity Basically keeping only chunks of text which have are not unique and contributed by many users.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:14AM (#39560379)
> Given person-specific field-structured data

That's not what this data is and that's broadly not what LLMs are trained on.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by 65a on Friday March 01, 2024 @02:16PM (#39565645)
By chunking and binning the data by user contribution count, you are structuring it as described. Pretraining is often accomplished on similar chunked text. k-anonymity is not perfect though, or state of the art, the wikipedia explains several known attacks.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by tdudhhu on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:54AM (#39559272)
This is exactly what the parent is saying: there is no way to do this reliably.

So repeat after me...

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by pas on Friday March 01, 2024 @04:56AM (#39560272)
it's still leaking information. let's say there are 5-6 companies that all work in the mystical cloud-painting sector, you lump them together and publish data about the sector. before there was nothing available now there's an average.

and obviously partial information is very useful for exactly those with some other partial information.

this is why OSINT is very effective. it's possible to piece together enough constraints on these datasets that in the end the likelihood of a successful deanonymization is unexpectedly high.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:13AM (#39560372)
> Simply classify data into buckets for each value of each variable such that each unique combination of buckets for every variable contains at least N items for a suitably large number of N.

What are the variables and what is the value of N when you're talking about "freeform text contracts containing PII"?

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by BobaFloutist on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:29PM (#39565011)
What if I've been the plaintiff for thousands of labor disputes, and my name and SSN appears in legal documents thousands of times? Couldn't that potentially expose my name and SSN both 5213 times, demonstrating them to be related?

I know this is a bit of an absurd example, but I'm trying to understand the mechanics more than to provide a realistic counterexample.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by xyst on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:36AM (#39559172)
We already know this. How about you tell the government and public officials.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by Der_Einzige on Friday March 01, 2024 @12:50AM (#39558939)
What happened to differential privacy?
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by nl on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:23AM (#39559109)
It works.

But understand what you are doing: you are adding noise to individual's data to make them less identifiable within a specified set of data. The amount of noise you need to add depends on the size of the set they are within.

The OP is also right: For arbitrary customer data (within arbitrary sets of data) you can't guarantee anonymization.

There are also multi-party computation systems, homomorphic encryption and federated learning approaches that all provide different approaches for parts of the private machine learning problem.

It's hard.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bigiain on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:32AM (#39559154)
Worth investigation "k-anonymity" as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-anonymity

k-anonymity is an attempt to solve the problem "Given person-specific field-structured data, produce a release of the data with scientific guarantees that the individuals who are the subjects of the data cannot be re-identified while the data remain practically useful."

One serious problem with that approach is that no matter how well you k-anonymise your data set, someone else's dataset may deanonymise yours.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by saulrh on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:20AM (#39559087)
It doesn't work on arbitrary data. Hand-crafted metrics on structured data, yeah. Free text, no. Data that you don't know anything about, also not really.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by coding123 on Friday March 01, 2024 @12:46AM (#39558922)
Meh, so it puts Robert Picardo Stewart somewhere.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @12:52AM (#39558945)
Or it puts your name and the name of one of your confidential clients in someone else's contract. Or it oopsies your name and salary into a job offer for someone else. Or it sees the name of your ex wife and hallucinates details about your assets based on your previous divorce papers and she sues you. I can come up with these all day.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by wmidwestranger on Friday March 01, 2024 @12:59AM (#39558981)
AI as the system copying notes for the test from another system.

Nothing in there is anywhere near impossible unless the system doesn't have the data.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by xeyownt on Friday March 01, 2024 @01:39AM (#39559193)
And?

If reliability is zero, so is the risk.

Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by bastawhiz on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:08AM (#39560340)
Just because my ex wife might incorrectly sue me doesn't mean it's not an incredible pain in the ass. Just because someone incorrectly got a contract that hilariously includes all the private details of my employment doesn't mean I won't be royally pissed. The risk is "I don't fucking want this to happen". So no, it's not zero.
Re:Docusign just admitted that they use customer data to tra... by SAI_Peregrinus on Friday March 01, 2024 @10:13AM (#39562509)
To be pedantic, you can trivially anonymize arbitrary data by returning a constant. You can't automatically anonymize arbitrary customer data and have the result be useful.