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Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by reify on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:05AM (#39270990)
I install Lineage on the phones of the elderly at local care homes and any people who are interested in prolonging the life of their old phones.

Poor people can't afford a new phone every two years.

When in your 80's you dont need or want the constant nagging of apps pestering you when all you want to do is text and call your family and friends.

I use abd to delete/disable every unnecessary useless app and leave them with just 3 apps. Text, phone and contacts. No data or wifi either. A dumb smart phone. Much better than the ageist demeaning Doro big button phones.

They are all amazed how beautifully simple the phones are and with just one or two taps they can text or call anyone.

Have you ever watched an elderly person trying to navigate the complexity of a modern smart phone. Not so smart!

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drewcoo on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:53AM (#39271241)
> They are all amazed how beautifully simple the phones are and with just one or two taps

Wouldn't they prefer one or even no taps?

> Have you ever watched an elderly person trying to navigate the complexity of a modern smart phone

Assuming that's a question, then "yes!" It is not at any level designed for what they want to do. The "mother of all demos" talked about children but not seniors. Ever since Engelbart, no one has cared either. Despite the boomers (with boomer cash) ageing out . . .

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by broodbucket on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:02AM (#39271277)
>The "mother of all demos" talked about children but not seniors

Children will press things until they figure it out. Adults (moreso as we age) are scared to press things they don't understand.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by iforgotpassword on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:50AM (#39271939)
> Adults (moreso as we age) are scared to press things they don't understand.

I have one outlier in my family. He's old, understands less and less about tech. like while ten years ago he was still able to understand how there are multiple Windows open on his laptop belonging to multiple apps, nowadays he starts confusing minimizing and closing apps, can't tell apart wether a program is running or it's just the pinned launch-icon, uses edge, Firefox and chrome interchangably and gets confused.... But at the same time, he still wants to figure everything out himself on both laptop and smartphone which resulted in hilarious mess-ups sometimes. I don't know if it isn't worse than a child. At a certain age a child might still get scared by some of the prompts, I've seen firsthand an 8yo going "oh no this costs money, abort" in panic. I'm not so sure my relative would do that when they think they know what they're doing...

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by palmfacehn on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:56AM (#39271254)
>When in your 80's you dont need or want the constant nagging of apps pestering you when all you want to do is text and call your family and friends.

I'm nowhere near 80 or retirement and I have the same sentiment. Add datamining concerns to the list. The modern smart phone can stay off my lawn. I get enough Internet here at my desk.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by humpydumpy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:47AM (#39273255)
This. I really like the idea of a pocket supercomputer like modern smartphone hardware. But I despise the software ecosystems that apple and google have built for them, with constant surveillance, lock-in, ads, tracking, horrible UIs and centralization.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by rchaud on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:14AM (#39274347)
A computer lets you build and run programs directly on device, with no internet. Our phones are closer to Super Nintendos than supercomputers.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by humpydumpy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:23AM (#39274464)
True. I like the analogy. The sad thing is that this is purely a software limitation. The hardware would be capable of so much more, it is more powerful than desktop computers of just a couple of years ago.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by EasyMark on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:22AM (#39275170)
for the way I use computers these days, it could very easily replace my laptop with a proper monitor and docking solution (but not my tower server/gaming machine)
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by Goronmon on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:38AM (#39274649)
Our phones are closer to Super Nintendos than supercomputers.

I think you have the relationship reversed. Supercomputers are closer to Super Nintendos than smartphones.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by EasyMark on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:21AM (#39275146)
yeah mine was a way to build anxiety via doom scrolling and downloading time wasting games. When I'm on a laptop/desktop, I'm usually actually working or killing time, but since I don't have one with me at all times, it's much easier to limit time wastage.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by WillAdams on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:23AM (#39273916)
When I first got my first cell phone (a Samsung Galaxy Note 10+), I found the idea of multiple pages of apps off-putting, so deleted everything which didn't seem necessary, and what couldn't be deleted moved into the various extant folders.

I've kept with this since, and hope to never need another phone (when this one dies, I'll just get a small camera, or a tablet with a rear camera).

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by EasyMark on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:19AM (#39275118)
i'm of the same mind. I set limits. I don't play games on my phone (except maybe in exceptional circumstances like on an airplane) and I don't use it for social media (only exception is facebook messenger because so many family members use it). I find when I draw fences around things like that it helps a lot to get back time from time stealing activities. I treat my phone as a tool and not as entertainment, otherwise I'd be spending all my free time doom scrolling and playing puzzle games on it. yeah I used to do that a few years back until I cataloged my hours and it was truly scary how much time was wasted.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by palmfacehn on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @01:03AM (#39285060)
These are sane limitations. They should be understood in the same way as basic health axioms. Digital gluttony has been normalized.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by broodbucket on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @12:57AM (#39271258)
I wish there were more incentives for people to develop accessible software experiences. Navigating the digital world is really hard for the elderly but it doesn't have to be that way. I guess this problem will eventually go away as digital native generations are all that exist, but it does feel like we've left a lot of the populace behind (and then bemoan that they don't understand us).
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by bsimpson on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:10AM (#39271323)
Apple has claimed to be at the forefront of design for decades,but their UIs look just as garbage as many others at elderly font sizes.

It would actually be nice if they shipped a small phone to get regular developers to care about constrained layouts, and then shipped a Pro Max Tab whatever that was the same proportions, but with everything scaled up.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by thefz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:54AM (#39271965)
> Apple has claimed to be at the forefront of design for decades,but their UIs look just as garbage as many others at elderly font sizes.

They also claim to be against waste and ecologically responsible, yet adopt the worst anti-consumer and anti-environment market practices they can get away with. Hell, they invented some.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by dghlsakjg on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:38AM (#39271455)
They ship the iPhone SE. That’s about as small as you can reasonably expect any smartphone to be.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by vincnetas on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:26AM (#39271770)
Oh how things changed when iPhone 5 (4'') was considered normal phone and anything from 5'' up was a phablet. Now you have basic phones starting from 6''.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drewzero1 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:47AM (#39271921)
I had an iPhone 4 and then a 5c (same size as the 5). The 4 was usually fine, sometimes a bit cramped, but the 5c really hit the sweet spot for screen size and one-handed usability. Someday I hope someone makes a decent modern phone just like the 5c.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by wstone on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:32AM (#39272205)
And bring back the plastic back (albeit using recycled supermarket bags or whatever). The 5c was such a great phone.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by solnyshok on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:31AM (#39272835)
and make it rubberized, please. so that I for once can use a phone without case
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drewzero1 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:38AM (#39274648)
Exactly! I had really hoped that would catch on, but I only ever saw it on some Nokia Winphones and cheaper Androids. The glass back is one of my least favorite features of modern phones and metal isn't much better (pick your poison: shatter, dent, or scratch). The 5c was also a bit of a callback to Apple's white polycarbonate era and some of my absolute favorite Macs.

I even saw some renders of a translucent replacement back for the 5c inspired by the original fruit iMacs[1]. (Shut up and take my money!)

1: https://9to5mac.com/2013/04/03/concept-imagines-low-cost-iph...

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by LegionMammal978 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @11:59PM (#39284677)
FWIW, Samsung used a plastic back for their basic Galaxy S21. I like it personally (less slippery than my old S7 Edge), but it seems to have been controversial among the user base, and they switched back to glass for later versions.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drewzero1 on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @10:41PM (#39297751)
Thanks for the tip! I'll have to watch and see if it gets Lineage eventually as I don't really care for Samsung's software, but by the time I'm ready to replace my OnePlus it might be a contender.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:24AM (#39272160)
To be fair the screen to surface ratio was pretty awful before the X.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by cassepipe on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:42AM (#39272896)
Same with cars...
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by samtheprogram on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:11AM (#39272077)
I just got an iPhone SE 1st gen, for the size and headphone jack. It's great.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drooopy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:22AM (#39272778)
THE SE 1 was damn near perfect. Great size, no camera bump, headphone jack, great battery life, fantastic all-metal build quality, fingerprint sensor...
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by dheera on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:12AM (#39271339)
Intentionally restricting users from modifying client-side software running on devices they own should be considered an ADA violation.

Punishment should be being forced to be blindfolded in public for 3 months and should be levied on all senior executives.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:18AM (#39273435)
The digital native generation will also age and will face challenges such as difficulty reading small text, accurately pressing keys on the screen, or executing intricate hand gestures. However, they will all have Neuralink implants, and everything will be decided for them by AI algorithms anyway.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by aidenn0 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @01:24AM (#39271399)
> I use abd to delete/disable every unnecessary useless app and leave them with just 3 apps. Text, phone and contacts. No data or wifi either. A dumb smart phone. Much better than the ageist demeaning Doro big button phones.

I've used an MDM with a kiosk mode for a similar effect. I won't recommend the one I'm currently using because the kiosk launcher crashes every couple of days; still looking for one that works well, and I've tried most of the ones I could find that weren't "call us for pricing"

I don't own a phone that LineageOS supports or I'd try it.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by encom on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:55AM (#39271975)
>ageist demeaning Doro

Not everything is an ism. Doro makes phones for people with poor eyesight. Most of those people are old. Glancing at their product catalogue, it doesn't seem much different from what you're doing with Lineage OS. Not everyone will have a geeky son to make a customised Lineage phone. Doro fills a niche. Be thankful someone does.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by seabass-labrax on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:03AM (#39272666)
> Not everything is an ism. Doro makes phones for people with poor eyesight. Most of those people are old. Glancing at their product catalogue, it doesn't seem much different from what you're doing with Lineage OS. Not everyone will have a geeky son to make a customised Lineage phone. Doro fills a niche. Be thankful someone does.

My father has a Doro handset. I recommended it to him based on a misunderstanding of the advertisement* and have regretted it every since.

The user interface is confusingly designed, with nested menus ten levels deep in which pressing the wrong button can just delete your message, contact etc. without waiting for confirmation. The screen is tiny and low resolution - I have 20/20 eyesight and still can't see what the status icons are supposed to be! It is so awkward to change the ring volume and unclear what mode the phone's in, that my father doesn't trust it not to ring at concerts, so leaves it at home.

All that leads me to the opinion that Doro is just predating on older users and their carers with the idea of being simple and accessible, whilst actually doing absolutely no real UX research. Yet, their 'dumbphones' approach the price of some basic smartphones which have hardware orders of magnitude more powerful.

* This was back when 2G was new, and I incorrectly assumed that it would imply some level of internet capability on any handset new enough to support it. The device in question does not have any internet support.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by stacktrust on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:26AM (#39272799)
BlindShell sells a phone for vision-impaired users, with support for popular assistive apps, plus audio for NFC tags, https://blindshellusa.com.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by seabass-labrax on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:51AM (#39272954)
That looks really nice. Little things like the reversible charging plug are absolutely critical (one elderly relative has broken a considerable number of devices by forcing the USB Micro-B cables in the wrong way round - coloured stickers to mark the plugs are obligatory).

NFC tags to identify physical objects when one can't read the label are an excellent idea.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by stacktrust on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:52AM (#39273662)
The team at WayAround have done a good job of integrating slightly-custom-for-small-premium NFC tags with their smartphone app and optional dedicated reader. Non-technical customers can buy tags designed for clothing buttons, magnets, stickers, clips and more. Techies can use generic tags + magic string.

https://www.wayaround.com (custom) and https://gototags.com (generic).

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by poulpy123 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:49AM (#39273267)
I had a look at doro phones for my parents and all the review were bad for a quite expensive price. The best I found for older people are second hands iphones (I'm an android guy myself)
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by poisonborz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:52AM (#39272325)
Take something as simple and necessary like Messenger or WhatsApp. Try to use it with no previous knowledge, texting, calling, turning on camera during call. All the text the UI displays, how it is worded. It's ridiculously unintuitive, not inclusive, a real barrier.

There should be law to mandate the UI of any app beyond a userbase of 100M. If you say that would severely restrict apps becoming that big, yeah that would be kind of the point.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by BHSPitMonkey on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:14AM (#39272417)
Recently I was helping someone in my life who'd gone through a stroke (not too old or tech-unsavvy) to learn a password manager and go through various websites' password reset flows. It really forced me to confront the reality of what you described, i.e. that computing really has become an inscrutable, confusing mess where nothing makes sense and we've just come to accept it.

It used to feel like being "tech savvy" meant thinking logically as the system designers would have, but now I think it just means being conditioned through years of abuse into knowing the unwritten rules of how to skillfully outmaneuver bullshit interfaces and dark patterns.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by qiine on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:35AM (#39272857)
> how to skillfully outmaneuver bullshit interfaces and dark patterns.

I hate how accurate this is, especially on mobile

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by jeroenhd on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @06:06AM (#39273052)
This is one of the reasons I'm putting my hopes into passkeys. The login flow couldn't be simpler. You could even give someone a physical key snd tell them that's what they use to log in, so they can keep their logins safe like they do their house key.

You'll always need a password and some difficult second factor for your Apple/Google account, but when you've got that sorted, the rest becomes do much easier.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by drooopy on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:13AM (#39272713)
I kind of agree with this. Whatsapp for example, has become so incredibly big in many different parts of the world that it has become a sort of de facto standard for communication to the point where government agencies even use it to communicate information to citizens via chatbots. It feels to me like there is a need for formal standardization but how would you go about enforcing that?
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by poisonborz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:32AM (#39272837)
The same way you enforce any other standard. Companies with 100m+ MAU apps are easy targets.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by Double_a_92 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:29AM (#39272818)
My elderly parents especially have problems with buttons that need 2 steps to press them. E.g. in Whatsapp if the other party wants to start a video call, a small button will pop up that just shakes around and needs to be pulled up.

They usually don't even notice that button. And if they do, they certainly don't understand that it needs to be pulled up...

Another big issue is that buttons and input fields are often not clearly recognizable as one.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by hnlmorg on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:00AM (#39273738)
This is one of my own personal gripes with modern interfaces. Interactive widgets are often indistinguishable from non-interactive elements.

I'm only in my 40s, still very hands on in tech and I still struggle with some applications. It's gotten to the point where I now loathe most web-based and mobile applications.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by a_gnostic on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:31AM (#39272834)
Or how about mandate the option of a open-sourced customizable UI plugin? This opens up competition again.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by indymike on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:07AM (#39273371)
> There should be law to mandate the UI

No thank you.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by Baguette5242 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @05:40PM (#39281839)
I don’t see why people get so shocked about this proposal.

There are laws to force architects to make their buildings accessible to people with disabilities, so I don’t see why it would be shocking to force companies that generate revenues from apps with a certain amount of user base to make their apps accessible.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by indymike on Wednesday February 07, 2024 @05:51AM (#39286967)
Going to jail or being fined over widgets doesn't make a better world.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by tharne on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:57AM (#39273705)
> There should be law to mandate the UI of any app beyond a userbase of 100M.

Gross. No thanks.

If you don't like the UI of an app, just use something else for cryin' out loud.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by wildrhythms on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:27AM (#39273946)
What is this plethora of options people have for banking, paying rent, getting documents from their doctor... And this isn't just an issue with phone apps either.

When I visit my bank account online I'm met with full page advertisements for other services from the bank and I have to hunt around to find the tiny gray 'No thanks' text before I can even get to my accounts. And from there, I'm met with constantly changing UI patterns and abstract hieroglyphic icons instead of plain text like it should be.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by tharne on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:33PM (#39279345)
> What is this plethora of options people have for banking, paying rent, getting documents from their doctor... And this isn't just an issue with phone apps either.

There are a lot of ways to pay bills. You named one that you happen not to like.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by poisonborz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @08:36AM (#39274019)
Care to explain further why there should be zero regulations on the UX of monopoly applications used by ~15%+ of world population? Good luck on trying to avoid the 3 top messaging applications in today's world. How is this different from regulating content moderation?

It's like telling a wheelchair user to just use another station or form of transport. If you have global reach, you have global responsibilites. And the end goal wouldn't even be regulated apps - it should simply be too complex to create apps with such a reach. Forcing open protocols instead of proprietary gardens. This is what the messaging interoperability of EU's DMA act is also supporting.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by tharne on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:32PM (#39279331)
> Care to explain further why there should be zero regulations on the UX of monopoly applications used by ~15%+ of world population?

Because there isn't a monopoly on chat apps. What you're asking for sounds like rules for the sake of more rules. I can think of more than half a dozen chat apps offhand: Signal Messenger, Whatsapp iMessage, all manner of IRC clients, Slack, Teams, stock SMS, Discord, Matrix/Element, Telegram, Session, and so on and so on.

We're not talking web search here, the market for chats is diverse and competitive. You got walled gardens, open source, and everything in between with a bunch of different UI's.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by poisonborz on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:50PM (#39280383)
Out of your examples there is like 3 over 100m MAU all other are negligible. Try to tell your peers you prefer "all manner of IRC clients". But regardless, don't you think an app used by 100m+ people should be regulated in this way? Can elderly or disabled persons choose what messenger they want to use to connect to most people? And don't tell "AI will solve it", the industry will not want these interfaces to be simple, they want to maximise profits. Black patterns should be discouraged.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by adammarples on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:15PM (#39280712)
Yes, they can choose one of hundreds of text messaging apps. If not someone can help them. If your bar for a product is that a disabled person has to be able to use it easily, no exceptions, then you are going to destroy a lot of products, from mountain bikes to headphones to pepper grinders.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by someotherperson on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @09:19AM (#39274406)
There is some level of a fix to this: which is to have an option that turns icons into their alt text. The camera icon becomes the word "camera", to flip the camera becomes the word "flip", the call icon becomes the word "call" and so on.

It's low effort to implement: just add the appropriate tags if they're not there, throw some i18n at it, then test it on different screen sizes.

This can probably happen on the OS level with some design guidelines.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by mavhc on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @03:59AM (#39272355)
Why would they need to buy a new phone every 2 years anyway? Buy a cheap phone, use it for 4 years at least
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by grey_earthling on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:44AM (#39272550)
Can LineageOS do major upgrades without needing support? (so once it's installed you never need to reinstall, and you can keep it safely up-to-date forever by clicking a button every so often - like Silverblue)
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by Timber-6539 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @04:54AM (#39272607)
No. Not even Google Pixel can promise error-free major upgrade jumps e.g from Android 12 to 13.

But on LineageOS you can update through all the updates for the major Android version (mostly ASB fixes and some new features here and there) by clicking a button from the Updater menu, courtesy of Android's A-B dynamic partitioning update system.

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by 4oo4 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @10:23AM (#39275177)
It can't, but major upgrades are much easier now if you are using SeedVault to reinstall all your apps and restore your app data.

https://github.com/LineageOS/android_packages_apps_Seedvault

Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by utrianenuirtne on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @07:16AM (#39273425)
Do you mind sharing in want kind of context you do this/what structure allows you to do this? Sounds like a nice way to help people.
Re:LineageOS is currently installed on 1.5M Android devices by egberts1 on Tuesday February 06, 2024 @02:31PM (#39279321)
Don't forget Doom!

We got lots of time on our hands.