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Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by Fauntleroy on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:04PM (#38489992)
People whine about "wealth distribution" day and night, but at the end of the day what alternative is there to combat the (continually increasing) concentration of wealth at the top? At some point there will have to be redistribution, in some form, and the sooner society comes around to that the better off we'll all be.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by kelseyfrog on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:25PM (#38490304)
The alternative of last resort is always violent revolution[1]. Wealth redistribution is the olive branch.

There seems to be an open question among the wealthy and political class of how far inequality can go given the modern police state and effectiveness of technology in accomplishing the goal of maintaining or exacerbating the current political economy.

1. See historical populist grivences against aristocracy that result in social restructuring.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by sidewndr46 on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:36PM (#38490452)
Overwhelmingly, violent revolution doesn't actually bring about the goals of the revolution. It just installs a new power structure with variations on all the old problems. Sometimes much worse.

So it isn't really a "last resort". It's more of a "well you didn't compromise, so now our choice is to burn the whole system down"

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by kelseyfrog on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:45PM (#38490565)
Wholeheartedly agree. For the peasants, revolutionary goals are rarely fulfilled. For the previous elite though, they rarely find continuity of power post revolution.

The sans-culottes didn't quite accomplish their goals(at least immediately), but Louis XVI among other elites didn't survive.

Toussaint Louverture et al didn't accomplish their goals, but the French no longer controlled Haiti.

Even Lenin and Trosky didn't accomplish their goals, but the Romanov didn't leave the Ipatiev House alive.

Like many conflicts, one side doesn't have to win for one to lose.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by EarthAmbassador on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:57PM (#38562963)
All true, which brings up the question how much better will the world be with a new elite. Also, maybe today’s generation of revolutionaries will do something different.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by ambientenv on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:54PM (#38490665)
This feels true to me. So my question is - and I don't know the answer yet, though I continue to seek such - when do we, as a humanity, break this cycle? When, and how, do we override the greed impulse, the impulse for power and control and domination of others? When do we begin to leverage a superior cognitive capacity enough to gain true enlightenment and break free from the bonds of behaviour which, while necessary as we evolved, is no longer required, and replace it with an egalitarian perspective and an accompanying stewardship model of life on earth?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by zozbot234 on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:01PM (#38490741)
We are pretty much there already. The average person in a developed Western country is pretty much a billionaire when compared to the living conditions of even the wealthiest people in ancient history. It's only the impulse of greed and envy towards others that leads us to believe otherwise.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by kelseyfrog on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:09PM (#38490838)
I'm always reminded of the video where one monkey is rewarded with a cucumber and one with a grape[1]. Certainly getting a cucumber is infinitely better than not having a cucumber, and yet the monkey protests.

Despite having higher cognitive functions, that impulse still exists and can only be suppressed for so long and so far. No one has infinite capacity to maintain what they see as unfairness indefinitely, especially when it seems that humans make their own rules.

1. Capuchin monkey fairness experiment, total duration: 57s, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by blacksmith_tb on Friday December 01, 2023 @03:11PM (#38491639)
Traditional responses see that as either good (which I think is your implication) or terrible, a la "bread and circuses" where people are too complacent to demand any real changes. I would say that the "average person" is a tricky model, here in the US there are people sleeping on the sidewalk, but they have smartphones in their pockets. Are they better off than a Roman emperor? I would say no.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by kelseyfrog on Friday December 01, 2023 @04:11PM (#38492468)
Thanks for pointing this out. It helped me contextualize the argument.

It is a combination of "Other People Have It Worse Than You Do" but uses the past as a point of reference.

We could just as easy compare ourselves to our presumably better off future and say that we have it worse off than them so we deserve to improve things now.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by somewhereoutth on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:57PM (#38491454)
Not quite. Some things are fundamentally restricted in supply - for example and most pertinently, decent housing where people need to live. It is hard to feel like a billionaire when you have to share cramped living spaces that take most of your income.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by snapplebobapple on Monday December 04, 2023 @02:06AM (#38514458)
You don't. Biology is a weird and wonderful thing and all these behaviours are ingrained deep. You arent changing anythibg without likely making it way worse through unforeseen outcomes. What we have to do instead is harness these emotions for financially wiping out the weak wealth inheritors mich more effectively so that it is rare to get more than 3 or 4 generations of these people with no skill growing the pot. One generation of imbecile/useless person needs to be likely to wipe out the pot.This would take the form of such things as (but not limited to) drastically limiting the controls one can keep on inheritances through time so more money ends up in inheritors hands with no restrictions sooner, finding a way to make private equity mich riskier/more evemly allocated so that the expected return for rich people is lower (but skilled rich can still earn high returns), more effectibely limiting corporate market power abuse by more effectively breaking up oligopolies (dont have to go back to prerehnquist levels of trust breaking but need to jead back in that direction some), etc.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by lostlogin on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:47PM (#38490587)
> Overwhelmingly, violent revolution doesn't actually bring about the goals of the revolution. It just installs a new power structure with variations on all the old problems. Sometimes much worse.

There are examples either way, and sadly you seem right.

I recently read but now can’t find a discussion around this that argued that extreme times promote extreme individuals. A violent revolution is clearly an extreme time and any leader that emerges is likely to have fought hard for their position.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by rjsw on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:09PM (#38490849)
There is an argument that Karl Marx provided a guide for the aristocracy to work out the point that inequality would provoke a revolution then back off slightly from it.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by kelseyfrog on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:37PM (#38491179)
Like yes, but also no? The aristocracy no easier to organize than the peasantry. They, through individual self-interest, graze on the commons of wealth and power and are subject to its tragedies just the same.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by beaeglebeach on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:42PM (#38490535)
Good luck with that in USA.

I'd rather die some billionaires minimum wage security squad protecting his gold plated yacht than let some violent freeloaders take my shit and install some cuban-tier communist hell-hole where there's no incentive to produce even basic grain stocks.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by wewtyflakes on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:46PM (#38490573)
If you are minimum wage security guard, nobody is taking your shit.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by beaeglebeach on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:19PM (#38490953)
People with guns accustomed to taking things "out of fairness" or some such... What happens when they run out of rich people to rob, do you think they just stop there? Day one is the rich, day 1000 the dude with a civic and a mobile home on 1/4 acre is looking tempting... Particularly now that almost all the people who knew how to both own and manage businesses have fled and anything that depreciates quickly is running out of parts and consumables.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by wewtyflakes on Friday December 01, 2023 @03:43PM (#38492088)
Better to be robbed by the rich than by the poor? If you're convinced the world is out to get you, what difference does it make?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by beaeglebeach on Friday December 01, 2023 @04:14PM (#38492506)
Do you think it's unreasonable to think people are out to get you as a capitalist in an anti capitalist revolution?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by dgfitz on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:05PM (#38490789)
What incentive would this guard have to keep working?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by wewtyflakes on Friday December 01, 2023 @03:51PM (#38492194)
So are you arguing we _should_ make rich people poor so they have motivation to work; that only poor people can be motivated to work?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by somewhereoutth on Friday December 01, 2023 @03:01PM (#38491504)
There won't be any incentive to produce even basic grain stocks if the large majority of the population can't afford to eat. See the Great Depression.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by beaeglebeach on Friday December 01, 2023 @04:01PM (#38492321)
Life expectancy rose to a multi decade (all time at that time?) record peak during the great depression in US and starvation was exceedingly rare. Even at one of its worst the outcome was remarkably robust against starvation.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by Moomoomoo309 on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:53PM (#38490650)
The solution is simple: Don't be that rich. If you can manage that, then you'll be fine. You're probably not a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by _factor on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:28PM (#38490357)
How about we start with the largest wealth holding: property.

One individual can own an entire town and charge people to live there indefinitely. This gets passed via inheritance and no longer equates to the initial building value.

On a micro scale, the timeframe for owning investment properties should be limited. They provide a service, but over a long period of time the owner is simply a leech.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by Buttons840 on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:15PM (#38490138)
Wealth redistribution and making it easier for new businesses to enter markets and compete. These often go hand-in-hand; safety nets allow people to take risks, and new competition prevents markets from colluding and ceasing competition.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by bobthepanda on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:19PM (#38490208)
Also letting legacy businesses die.

It is more often than not that family firms in particular collapse after one or two generations, if not propped up.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by Sohcahtoa82 on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:59PM (#38490718)
For people against the wealth redistribution as a concept (whether it's UBI, better welfare programs, increased minimum wage, etc), what do you think the end-game looks like for continued growth in wealth inequality?

The only answer I can see is that your customer base shrinks as fewer people are able to buy.

Or you get violent revolution as the poor are sick and tired of being priced out of even being able to afford housing and they decide they have nothing left to lose.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by satellite2 on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:10PM (#38490083)
Apparently he improved the conclusion in his second book.

In the first one it was bittersweet as he only stuck to historical evidences and what he found was that the only periods of decreasing economic inequalities were wars.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by pydry on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:24PM (#38490288)
I prefer to call it wealth re-re-distribution.

The Walton family wealth, for example, is a capitalised stream of rents predicated on underpaying store staff and abusing market power with suppliers. That's a wealth transfer. That's redistribution.

The Duke of Westminster is worth $11 billion because his ancestor was besties with William the Conqueror (not william the earner).

These are wealth transfers and redistributions that, ideally, ought to be undone.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by uoaei on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:26PM (#38490324)
Distribution implies few to many, concentration implies many to few. We could call it semantics or we could call it using words correctly.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by tanjtanjtanj on Friday December 01, 2023 @02:57PM (#38491441)
I don't have that connotation for the word and I'm not sure I can find support for it either.

If I have 5 objects and five people and I give one to each that's a distribution. If I give them all to one person, that's a distribution. If I start with the first distribution and concentrate all of the items to one person, creating the second distribution that's still the same distribution.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by pydry on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:29PM (#38490362)
It might imply few to many to you, but to other people it implies not earned.

Implication is often a highly personal thing.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by uoaei on Friday December 01, 2023 @04:02PM (#38492330)
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/distribute

Roughly, literally, "to give apart", i.e., to break up a resource from fewer to more owners.

I'm a big fan of poststructuralism but social spaces generally require that people understand each other. We can't just go redefining words on personal whims unless the people you're communicating with have consented to be a part of that metatextual process. This isn't that kind of space.

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by abeppu on Friday December 01, 2023 @05:25PM (#38493382)
Literally nothing in the definitions you're linking to mentions anything about owners. And the definitions given at points just re-enforce the ambiguity. Definition 5 is "To apportion (more or less evenly)." I think one could reasonably read "more or less evenly" to mean "either more evenly or less evenly" or "relatively evenly".

The definitions for "distribution" rather than "distribute" only weaken your narrow view further. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/distribution

Definitions include "An apportionment by law (of funds, property)" and critically "The apportionment of income or wealth in a population" with the example usage "The wealth distribution became extremely skewed in the kleptocracy." I.e. becoming extremely skewed didn't mean it was no longer a "distribution" in virtue of being concentrated.

And especially in a space where lots of people have a technical background, we're very likely to be thinking of the wealth distribution explicitly as a probability distribution (also listed as a separate definition), _especially_ we've already used the concept of quantiles on that distribution. Englishing flexibly, I think it's totally reasonable for "distribution" to refer to either the function assigning probability mass, _or_ to the act or process of making such a function true.

People in this thread are mostly using this word in a reasonable way. You're the one seeking to redefine words by insisting that only an entropy-increasing change is a "distribution".

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by uoaei on Friday December 01, 2023 @05:42PM (#38493564)
That's a lot of contortion to attempt a defiance of etymology. And anyway the conversation was about redistribution, that prefix of course demanding an additional contextual layer on which the word is applied. Trying to imply that in general redistribution should be ambiguous enough to be synonymous to concentration is firstly just muddying language to make conversation harder and second taking us further from the point of the conversation anyway. Since when is it in the interest of any discussion that "words mean things" becomes controversial?
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by abeppu on Friday December 01, 2023 @06:43PM (#38494158)
Words mean things. This word doesn't mean what you want it to mean, either according to the other people in the thread you're interacting with, or the source you decided to cite.

Etymology is not the sole determiner of meaning. We can call an area on the moon a "mare", and know this comes from the Latin for "sea", but "mare" in the context no longer means "sea".

Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by uoaei on Friday December 01, 2023 @08:40PM (#38494967)
This word does indeed mean exactly what I want it to mean, you're cherry picking other aspects of the definition to somehow overwrite the original rather than to acknowledge that we both can be right in certain ways. I'm right about what this word literally means, you're right that carelessness wins the day when it comes to language drift.
Re:Billionaires amass more through inheritance than wealth c... by theGnuMe on Friday December 01, 2023 @01:10PM (#38490080)
Death and taxes.